your d-day is so recent...there are many here, me included who would recommend you waiting 6 months before making any decisions.....making a decision when your emotions are raw is almost always a decision that is regretted...
i am a firm believer in the path of least regret....face it we all have choices to make....so when faced with those choices, think about every possible outcome and consequence....how will you feel about this next week, next year and then 5 years from now....will you have regrets...if the answer is a yes or even a maybe, then rethink it...sometimes we are stuck between a rock and a hard place and no matter what decision one makes it is very possible it will be one of regret...but and this is a big but...the other choice that is open...may be an even bigger regret...no one can predict their future, but for the most part you can figure out what decisions and choices you can live with and which ones you really can't....which is why i call it the path of least regret...there is no such animal as no regret....we all have them, some worse then others...i for one, since living my life like this really have very few regrets...and i have been faced with quite alot of shit and have had to make more then my share of decisions and choices...we all have....
so wait 6 months..unless your sich is unbearable, or your ws is completely an ass...wait 6 months...
gotta run, now will be back later....
and awakening welcome to our corner...
newbies: dont worry about catchin up with the rest of us, or even catchin on...worry bout yourselves first, the rawness needs to pass...too much overwhelming shit to process....
So, I have to decide if I can live with this...
No matter what path you choose, you do not have to live with anything from or because of him. Focus on your needs, what you want. Begin to move to self-fulfillment and affirmation. Where do you (not the M, not your WS) want to be in 6 months, a year, 3 years? Start stepping towards those goals.
Think about what boundaries you have for WS (or anyone) to be in your life. Things like willing to identify and communicate feelings rather than expressing everything as angry. NC with former or potential APs. During times of personal stress helps you to cope and feel better (or at least does not make things worse). Makes a significant effort to show me that I am important to her. Etc.
She asked me to give her through July to work on him...
You are fortunate maybe to have a timeline. FWW is involved with IC, but it is all very open-ended. How long do I wait, what is a plateau, what is the final product?
180 blueroses, not as punishment to him, but as comfort and concern for yourself.
ETA: blueroses, for the first 6-8 months after dday I got a lot of anger, TT, denial from FWW. She broke 2 smart phones during this time, talked of moving out, explained how she was glad I caught her in the A because it made us ďevenĒ, and easier for her to forgive me. It was nearly a year until she decided to commit to our M and started IC. During much of this time the 180 was my friend. So was IC for me.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:25 AM, June 7th (Tuesday)]
Hugs to willow and roses. (roses: Have you tried those "diet" or supplement drinks? Ensure is on the store shelves here easier to keep down than actual food.)
My parents leave this morning. And evil twin and his GF arrive on Friday. And I am going out with my friend on Friday evening to listen to a great bluegrass band. Busy week. Gots no time but am reading and thinking of all of you. Gotta run.
I'm not going to get into the whole debate about sex, love etc. except to say it beats the f*ck out of me...
Oh, tribe, you are so right about my roller coaster. I need your help. To make a long story short, I need to tell my WH that if this is the way things are going to be I want a D. I need him to go to IC and get well. He said not long ago that we never fight because he can't fight with me because there is always an express or implied threat of divorce (yes, because we fight about infidelity, spending too much money, terrorizing the children, excessive drinking ) point is, I need him to listen but the second I say can't do it his ears will turn off... ugh.
So, I'm at a loss what to say.
Maybe I should say, Look, the only way your depression is ever going to get measurably better is if you go see this IC every week for a while. There is no magic pill cure. The AD's help, but the "cure" comes from seeing yourself more clearly and un-learning your negative, damaging behaviors and learning how to prevent the circumstances that trigger those behaviors. The AD's help you stay on a more even keel while you do that, but if you truly want to feel better you've got to go and do the rest of the work or you will never feel any better than you do right now, today, and in fact you may eventually feel worse. It's a biochemical disease, but it's not ONLY a biochemical disease. If you want to feel better you've got to fight for it with everything you've got. I've got to be honest, I've been watching you struggle with this for some time now, and I struggled to recover from mental illness too, and that is why I am 99% convinced that unless you do more, you're just not going to make it. If AD's and seeing this guy a few times a year were all you needed to get better, you would be better by now, you just would. It's been 3 years. Do you really want to feel this same way, or even worse, 3 years from now? I wouldn't.
And then we'll just see what he says. If he says no I will say that I hope he changes his mind. This is not the way the WH I married would choose to live his life, he's clearly unhappy, and I don't think there is a way for him to get where he wants to be without getting his depression beat.
I don't know. There are no threats or ultimatiums there. I'm trying to channel the 180 etc. and recognize that I can't make him do jack.
I'm trying to channel the 180 etc. and recognize that I can't make him do jack.
So are you willing to live with him, be M with him, as he is now. Not in the past during the LTA, not as he might be in the future, but now? Believe me, I appreciate that this is not an easy answer to arrive at, but fortunately, you have already answered it.
... I need to tell my WH that if this is the way things are going to be I want a D.
You can tell him this, but as you said; he will not listen and you cannot make him do anything. OTOH, actions speak much louder than words, and he cannot help but to take notice.
I need him to go to IC and get well.
I disagree. You do not need him to go to IC, you do not need him to get well. I think that what you do need from him is to be faithful to the fidelity of his M vows, to control his spending of family resources, and not use that as a way of self-soothing. You need him to be a loving and nurturing Father to his children. You need him to no longer drink to excess. It does not matter how he accomplishes these things (voodoo, EST, Retrouvaille, spontaneous rectal cranial expulsion), he just has to do them, beginning like now.
Öhe can't fight with me because there is always an express or implied threat of divorce
This reality is always underlying the M and discussion/argument within the M. You are fighting because you, m334455, prefer not to D. For a long time I thought avoiding conflict was good for the M, now I understand it is vital. He is just using this as an excuse. Does he really take the position he should spend too much, he should terrorize the children, and he should drink to excess? Or is it that he is denying he does any of these things?
Maybe I should say, Look, the only way your depression is ever going to get measurably better is if you go see this IC every week for a while. There is no magic pill cure.
Again, it is not his depression, but the behavior driven, you suspect, by his depression. Treating his depression is certainly one way to change the behavior, but depressed people can still control spending, be good to their children and not retreat into an alcoholic fog.
Is he happy with who he is? Is her happy with his life? If so, what is the incentive for him to change?
That sounds reasonable to me. It is not a threatning, you better not do this type of letter. Maybe it will sink in. If not you could always make him listen to the song I am about to recomend to Nell.
Thanks for sending out the LTA house missing persons report last Friday. I had limited privacy so my SI time was just not there. Tell the truth. Did you really miss me or did you just miss me saying this? "Nell, you are smokin hot!" Either way is o.k. with me.
Are you still needing a song? Here is one for you and all others that need a song to tell your WSs how you feel. This song contains language that may not be suitable for all people. It should be played in private the first time. Please do not ever play this song with the kids around, at work, in front of your preacher, at PTA meetings, school events and especially weddings.
Shit! I tried to paste a link. This did not work. What do you expect from a old fart. You need to google Harry Nilsson Your Breaking my Heart. It should lead you to a U-tube video. This song was cutting edge stuff back in 1972. You younger people may not remember this one.
Let me be the first to wish you a happy birthday. For next year!
To all the newbies. Welcome. Do not worry about keeping up with everybody. It can be overwhelming for the old timers to keep up with this place.
I gotta go.
Hugs to the tribe.
Maybe if you write it all down, telling him what you need and what will happen if, at the end of the day (hate that expression, but itís important for you to have a deadline), you both decide divorce is the only option left. I donít think it is helpful to threaten divorce or hold it over him like a baseball bat.
So lay things out on paper to get it straight in your head, write a letter to him and then sit down and talk about everything that needs to be done if you are to stay together. There has to be discussion and, perhaps, some compromise. If he wonít talk at all, then I think you have your answer.
You canít make him better, only he can.
Gotta run. Hugs.
Ok. Actions. You are right. It's better to say I need a M to look like X, Y, Z. You are completely right. See? That's why I have you! You're godsends. You are also right that actions do speak louder. I will think of the actions I can take. I swear, ATS, if I was anywhere near you I would see your IC -- you are so freakin' smart about this stuff now. I'm not saying you weren't smart before, but I can also see how much you've learned, and also how much more than ME you've learned, and I've been busting my tail. Wow.
Dip -- how do you grill a pizza? I think I need one.
ETA -- ATS, the A is: "it was just a continutation of something from the past..." The spending is MY fault, The terrorizing never happened except the one time a few weeks ago (ok and maybe 3 or 4 other times) but it wasn't that bad and the drinking he had no idea he was drinking that much.
So, you could call that denial, but it's more like the whole Red Sea about to crash in on Pharaoh's Army if you ask me...
[This message edited by m334455 at 12:58 PM, June 7th (Tuesday)]
IC agrees I need to work on detaching. I need to let go and start looking, seriously, at my alternatives. I am young and "definitely dateable" in her book.
Ah well, gyn appt tomorrow, when I get my STD testing done. Yay.
I know I cannot count on him for anything now. I just need to learn to stop caring. Should be easier than this, with no heart left.
Can I strangle him? That might make me feel better.
Do as I say, not as I do
Detaching is extremely, extremely hard. NC helps tremendously. I fear I must say though, that after my first D it took 2 1/2 years before I didn't dream of my XH every night - and that was with complete NC. It takes time and lots of it.
Hang in there.
It really meant a lot to me to know just how much you care.
What is the quote from Maya Angelo? When people show you who they are, believe them.
Thanks m334455, but I really should change my tagline to:
Do as I say, not as I do
Me too. Snort.
- how do you grill a pizza?
You put it under a really bright light and start to ask questions rapid-fire. Another technique is to have one questioner be the mean or bad person, and the other to appear to be a good person.
Either way, you have to really turn up the heat until they melt.
spontaneous rectal cranial expulsion
Detaching IS hard, remembering the photos makes it easier, remembering that the only photo of me WS on his phone is of me in an apron, not lying flirtily in bed with tousled hair. Remembering the time and effort I took trying to R after D-day 1, remembering the number of times I have given him one more chance, and remembering his lies and false promises helps me detach.
You know, even if WS did have a spontaneous rectal cranial expulsion, I think it would be too late. thinking of the pictures.
Frozen or home made pizza? Gas, electric or charcoal grill?
Now just need to keep my cool, remember it was more fun without him than with him, why spoil it. So no comment from me when he does get back. He seems to be drinking a bit more heavily these past few days.
I hear ya. My parents feel so culpable (not that they should) for the problems I'm having with WH because my Dad was depressed my whole childhood and my mom put up with it way too long (Dad didn't get better until he got some therapy while I was in my late 20's) and so now they feel like it's partially their fault that I wound up in this sort of a relationship dynamic in the first place...:::
Ummm, this FOO dynamic which is certainly relevant could certainly be used to soften the blow to your WH ego. If he won't seek IC for himself, or you, or the M ... will he attend weekly therapy for your children?
When people show you who they are, believe them.
WH read the chapter about affairs' effects on children. He has said nothing about it. It starts out with the author stating that she's shocked by the number of people who insist that their A did not affect the children, and included several phrases that WH used verbatim (you know, kids are resiliant, they know I love them, etc.). If he has contemplated any of this, I have zero idea. He has tried out a few things he's read on me with varying success.
Whatever. I'm on a lowish point of the rollercoaster, but I don't seem to be barrelling out of control, so that's good. Just riding slightly below center. My parents leaving doesn't help. Evil twin and the crazy GF (who have apparently "made up") coming and staying for a solid week doesn't help. I'm glad I didn't say anything when WH was telling me all about evil twin and GF's latest bout of drama, other than, "Yeah, that's exactly what you said two years ago."
So, I didn't have any alcohol to fuel my negative feelings, and I will escape to yoga tonight for two hours and sweat like crazy. And I am sitting on my deck, where is it shady and lovely, with my dog and my Boyo2. All is well. Mostly.
I am watching you struggle with parsing your words, and thinking that I do the same thing. I hate it. I should be able to have a discussion with my HUSBAND about ME and/or our frickin' MARRIAGE, for f*ck's sake. But... nope. On the depression, I have no great insights on that. (Not that not knowing anything about a topic has stopped in at any point in the last three pages...)
Speaking of which, jollum, how are you?
Oh, the 180. How I love it. But then you all know that it's like aspirin for me. Got a problem? Take a 180 and don't say or do a damn thing until the morning. I do disagree with your disagreement about Mr. m3 needing to get well. If he's not well, his unwellness is going to manifest itself and not in any way that is good for the m3 family. And while m3 can't force him to do anything, she can surely say "Sorry, I won't be married to someone who is acting out and not working to effectively treat his mental illness."
I can NOT believe that Mr. Dishonest is coming back! WTF? Can you just plan a vacation with DS16 and forget to tell everyone? There's got to be a Rennaissance Festival or something that he would love to go to. Or a week-long rock concert. Or, hell, I'd take tent camping for two solid weeks over seeing that old fool again.
I haven't been without people so that I could listen to the song, but I looked up the lyrics. Any song that includes the word "fuck" is okay by me. I like Pink's "Funhouse"... especially the line "I'm gonna burn that fucker down." Very satisfying to yell in the car. Also "Cry Me a River" if I'm in the mood to actually sing, as opposed to yell lyrics to a backbeat. I'm going to join a church with a decent choir so I can get back into singing, BTW. I love it and it will be one more way to spread my wings and meet people. Plus, churches love the smokin' hot choir babes. Brings in the crowds.
Meanwhile, here it is at the end of the day (UKgirl) and I've not done a damn thing.
willow, glad you and DD had a nice evening.
I must say, I love it when you burst onto the scene to say something pithy.
Okay, been fiddling around with this message for quite some time now (and also playing with boys and dogs ) so am hitting send. Yoga time! Nell out.
So much to catch up on.
I have been reading but not able to post. I am off work today and FWH is at work so can finally get back to you all. 4 pages to catch up on so this may be long.
Despite the fact that she is 9 years younger than me, has all the time in the world to work out, etc., I blow her away!
It is my perspective that even with a remorseful spouse who is owning his or her sh*t , and doing the hard work, R is not a given.
I agree. For us to "recover" is a monumental task. We are trying but it is SOOOO hard.
She and I had plans ..... Work came up for her.....I did not think I would have much fun alone, but ..... The fact is I did have fun.
I think that through our efforts to survive this shit we actually begin rediscovering ourselves. While our (F)WSs were not really into our Ms there were lots of unexplained probs that kept us down. Now we know the cause of these we can start to really live again and focus on OUR lives.
He is still saying he canít make a decision unless I can say where I want to be in a couple of years time
Let's face it. After A(s) esp LTAs then all bets are off. I make no promises about the future. I sincerely believe that I now have a "free pass". One day I may wake up and say "I don't want to do this anymore" and D. I currently have strong feelings for my FWH and at present believe we will stay together but the loyalty I felt before dday has gone. Before dday I would have said I would do anything to save our marriage. Now - not so much
So I'm not planning too far ahead. Just trying to live in the moment.
Sorry honey, I'm with the other girls on "love". They all explained it better than me. Except for this example....
(TMI)I found out that the weekend after my mother died while I was visiting the children, my FWH spent the nights I was away (Fri and Sat) night with OW3. He had sex with her both nights. During the day he was at home (in case I called) but spent hours on the phone with her and OW1. During these calls he was very "lovey" and affectionate with them but when I called he was quite brusque with me (remember my mum had just died!). During his conversations with them he also said lots of nasty things about me and even laughed with them about the creativity of his excuse to not be with me when my mother was dying. When I arrived home Sunday evening he wanted to have sex. His efforts were quick and impersonal - unlike what he did with OW3 on the 2 previous nights. (Found out this when I checked VAR the following day. This was the first weekend I had used it and I was still in denial until I heard these convos.) His convos with OW3 contained lots or graphic "reliving" of their previous 2 nights together including details of how she wore him out - obviously not the "quickie" he gave me. I can never believe that what he DID TO ME that night was an act of love. Or that what he DID TO ME for many years before dday was an act of love. Silly me thought he was getting older, had less stamina and was less interested - which I didn't comment on because I didn't want to hurt his ego or his feelings!!!!I now know the the reason for sex with me was to cover his arse
On a more positive note
1. I didn't shed a single tear while I wrote that stuff. EMDR is WONDEFUll!!!!!!!!
2. Sex with him is now great (I guess I'm getting what his OWs got all those years and he's not over the hill after all)
Gotta post before this all goes "poof". BRB
[This message edited by Laura28 at 8:05 PM, June 7th (Tuesday)]