Laura: Your son is in my thoughts and prayers. I hope everything will turn out all right.
Nell: You have a great way with words and you always have something great to say!! I love reading your posts. Congrats on your Boyos!
I am a horrible griller when it comes to the question asking. I inadvertly gave my W the answer to a question I was asking one time. How stupid is that? No wonder I don't know anything about her A shit. The LTA legal team needs to do the grilling of the prisoners. I will say I probably would do a better job if I was grilling someone who I was not married to and who had not betrayed me.
If he heals and I heal (without all the answers) then maybe in the future we can go back and see if the bloody beaten broken marriage can be worked on.
At that time he would need to come clean with all the answers and then maybe we'll work on R.
This is the hardest thing, I think. From being on the boards and my own experience, it's hard to recover from the LTA to begin with, but then the WS had deep issues that caused them to become involved with the LTA that must be resolved and THEN the marital issues are still there. It's a huge amount of work and that's why BOTH spouses must be ready to do it. One person cannot do it all. But, 0115, you are still very early on. Keep a journal. If you feel strongly about S in 6 months, then that may be the right thing to do. But making a decision based on feelings alone is not the wisest thing to do. But you may know deep inside yourself that this is the right thing to do and not a emotional reflex. I strongly suggest a few sessions with an IC to help you sort out your feelings. This is a big trauma for you.
Ats: You are not invited to the step DD's wedding? Geez.
It also seems that your FWW is focusing on her family above you. This could be from a lot of different reasons, but from reading about your FWW, I think it's because she is sure of your love, and not her family's and that is why she is making this big effort for them. She thinks you'll understand and be there for her. This is taking you for granted, and not because she doesn't love you. It's wrong no matter what. You may need to quietly point this out to her. But there is something deeper here, I feel. She had sex with the OM, but it was NOT an emotionally intimate relationship. I don't think she is ready to have one, although I believe she wants to have on with you and doesn't really know how, or is afraid to. Keep to your old plan that has worked: if hurtful behavior continues for 2 months or more, you reconsider staying in the M. As long as progress in being made, you can wait for a while. BUT, there may come a time that waiting will no longer be an option and things will not get much better. Don't be angry at your FWW for this, though. We all have witnessed how far she has come and how much work she has done. Now, it's ok to step back a bit and see what happens.
As for me, DS 35 was yelling at me on the phone the other day about letting WH come back into the house to stay while he is "visiting". DS 35 was saying I was choosing WH over him and always had. We weren't getting anywhere in our discussion. I do understand that he is angry, and he tells me that he is sick of seeing me depressed. He says he won't come here anymore if that is what I'm going to do. I told him I was not choosing WH over him. I'm trying to do what's best for the younger DS's and financially. My IC just told me that I had PTSD and that's why I was unable to really do anything for sooo long. I told DS this, and of course because of 9/11 he doesn't seem to understand how I can have it.....
I've been looking for jobs, but with economy, it's very difficult. <sigh>
Well, gotta run. I have to look back on the previous page to respond to the posts there. I really must keep a notebook next to me so I can remember things as I read the posts!!
I love you all very much and thank you for everything!!
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 10:52 AM, June 17th (Friday)]
And then I see that honest has posted. Hello, honest! Honey, about DS35: Is it possible that his anger is, in part, an attempt by him to get you to "snap out of it"? A long-distance Cher-slap? Or do you think it's borne purely out of frustration? I'm glad to see you're on the hunt for a job. I hope you find something soon!
I have IC this afternoon! Woot woot! We'll talk about EMDR and she wants to see the personal goals/mission statements I created for myself some time back.
I really feel so much better about myself these days. I'm getting better and better. Meanwhile, Mr. Nell is just vanilla pudding. Nothing. No changes. Gaining weight. Stuck in his "Donald Trump Jr." dreams. I don't know, folks. It ain't lookin' good, though he's not doing anything wrong (as far as I know), he's not doing anything terribly right, either. I might be growing away from him.
Is how I feel right now. (Nell marks the time.)
I really do not need the updates, and I am avoiding most of them. Tonight they are going to one of the more expensive resturants in town for supper (and it is an expensive town). I do not need to hear how nice it is and how she wishes we went to places like that.
I think that this week REALLY makes it clear that she is sitting on the fence. I am the safe landing zone, I pay the bills, fix the crap, listen to her, etc. She keeps me around, but would rather be with work people, a sister she says makes her uncomfortable, or strangers, than to spend time with me after I return form a 4 day trip.
I am hurt, and I am angry.
Have you told her that you're hurt and angry?
I will when she is back or at MC this week. No reason to ruin her visit. Her sister (my sil) already thinks I am mean and manipulative enough. She will not visit our house when I am home is what FWW has told me, hence FWW visiting with her at this friends house.
I tried to share how I felt a year ago while she was on travel to her parents anniversary and violated a very clear boundary we had established, that did not go well, and triggered the events that led to my moving out.
I have raised the issue of her putting family ahead of me twice in the last 6-8 weeks. She did not want to speak of it either time.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:14 PM, June 17th (Friday)]
I'm off for a bit but will be back to check in later.
Thinking of you.
I say your son is angry and frustrated. He wants to see his mother safe and happy. He knows you are hurt by WH. He is just letting his anger go in the wrong direction. He wants to protect you and about the only legal way for him to do this would be to talk you into keeping WH away. I imagine he has thought of several illegal ways to help you out.
Last night tryn told me to hold down the fort. I think I have done a pretty good job so far. I think it is time to pass the fort holder downner torch to a younger and more qualified man. In other words, tag you are it.
Now about your W. Is she updating all this because she thinks she had better keep you informed as to where she is and what she is doing? Do you think she knew there would be all those men there. If she did, I think not telling you that little fact is way, way out of line. Her telling you she did not want to be with her sister but spending all that time with her is pretty confusing. Maybe she was trying to make it seem like she felt obligated to be with her. Kind of a "well, darn, heck, I hate to be with her but I guess I will have to go." I can see why you are pissed off. I sure would be. There are just too many things wrong with all of this.
Hugs to the tribe.
I think she did not know there would be men, or who would be there. It is her nature to agree to things without knowing the details, and then being suprised.
As for being with family and not liking it, she said/says same about her late mother, her older DD, and her sister. She feels obligated to meet their expectations. She has told me she always felt safe ignoring mine because I would be understanding. I have tried to communicate to her that I am no longer that understanding smuck, but I clearly have not yet made my point.
I can just imagine the look I will get from her when she gets home and I ask if her BIL was there too.
I am torn with what to do with my "free" night this evening, but given my mental state, working on boat maintenance is probably safer than going to a club on the beach for drinks and ....
As the song by the Eagles says: "...you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave..."
sorry, but that is the bitch of it all, it is too late to avoid. Divorce, seperation, R, they all lead to a different future, but we can never leave our past (thanks WS).
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 3:39 PM, June 17th (Friday)]
As the song by the Eagles says: "...you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave..."
Applies to us too! LTA is the Hotel California for sure.
Your story is a lot like mine. I feel like I have a lot to offer you, but sometimes things are easier in smaller chunks. So, first: (1) please, forget about whatever your WH's issues are. You have ascertained they are formidable. That's all you need to know for now. (2) Concentrate on three things for right now. (a) self-care (i.e. eat, brush, bathe, keep your job...care for your passel of kiddos...) (b) imagine your ideal marriage (c) figure out whether or not infidelity is a dealbreaker.
And keep in mind, if you R, there will always be some part of you that looks at him and takes everything he says with a grain of salt (as in "yeah, you say that but then again you pulled off an 11 year snow job so we'll see...")
If infidelity is not a dealbreaker, and there is nothing that definitively bars you from being able to have an M that is somewhat acceptably close to your ideal with your WH -- then you start thinking about whether or not there is any point to making an R effort.
Also, all known as
PUT YOUR OWN OXYGEN MASK ON FIRST
DON'T PUT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE
One thing about holding down the fort at the LTA house. It is the girls here that do the holding down. They just like to let us think we are doing something so we can feel useful.
Working on the boat or going to a club? I wish I was there to point you in the right direction. It is a no brainer to me. Club on the beach beats working on a boat. Everytime!
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy, applies to us in the LTA house. That is such a hard thing for a BS to accomplish after a stupid A.
Eagles... Whenever I think of WH and OW's twisted drama triangle, I think of "you're making the most of your losing streak; some call it sick but I call it weak (yeah yeah yeah)..."
The rollercoaster does even out, though. You know this. Just hold on through the worst of it, honey.
I am officially bad at "being in my calm place." I get there, notice my breathing, look around, calm down, and about 90 seconds later I'm ready for what's next. "Lets do this thing." I am to practice, with a timer, to be in my calm place for four minutes at a time. IC said again that I am entitled to my anger, and I said that while I knew that, it wasn't doing me any good any longer and I was ready to get rid of it, as I think it might be holding me back. So here we go. First day wasn't bad. Just settling on a calm place. I had to cycle through a few before I got to the one I stuck with. That was pretty much my whole session. Oh, that and the fact that I was never passive-aggressive, but was passive-aversive (avoiding conflict by agreeing with whomever, or just ignoring, and doing whatever I wanted). Yuck. But I realized I did that and I do not do that any more. So there ya go. I'm growing. Then we chatted about WH, and about Boyo1's ADHD diagnosis, and stand-up paddle surfing and yoga. All in all, good stuff. And I have my task, good for the task-oriented part of me.
So are you going to do EMDR? I initially wanted it for the triggers, hurt and pain but it has also had a huge affect on my anger.
My calm place was easy. The side veranda of the house. After dday I bought a table setting for it. We often sat out there and I realised early on that none of the OWs could have done that because the chairs weren't there before dday!
So now it is both my physical and mental safe place. I love sitting there and looking at the trees, plants, birds and butterflies (when they are there).
I agree with your IC. We do have a right to our anger but I'm sick of mine. I don't want it any more. I think you feel the same. Things is whether we R or S/D the hurt and anger interfere too much in day to day life. This is why I needed it gone. I still do have some but it is so much more manageable - it is bearable and I can control it. It no longer takes control of me.
Happy you are feeling good. I think that sometimes just feeling like we are DOING something to deal with it helps.
it was so surreal, and some really scary shit...22 years old and the cause of death is cardiac arrest...the first story was that she had some kind of infection and her immune system could fight it...and this came on quite suddenly...the second part came that she had a cardiac arrest and the next part was that the infection was a urinary tract infection....and then the last story i got was that she went to a party on fri nite, came home not feeling well...either that nite or the next day she fainted, she was brought to the hospital...they ended up sending her home...and then she fainted again by tues morn...they brought her back to the hospital and she died 20 minutes after arrival....22 years old...scary scary shit
my dd who came to both sessions today was totally rocked....and is questioning the way life can just end...at one point she leaned on my shoulder to comfort me because all i kept saying is that parents should not be burying children and i couldn't understand how these people were so damned calm and the general feel of the place was not one of sadness...it felt like a normal wake for someone old...moments here and there of sadness and then back to the general light atmosphere with lots of people smiling and laughing....like no one could face what was literally staring us all in the face....it was so surreal...so anyways her head is on my shoulder and the brother comes over and grabs her and tells her she is a mess and asks her if she is ok...and it looked like it meant something to him that she was upset so my dd didn't say it was me that was recieving the comforting since he hugged her and recieved some as he himself was doing the comforting....at one point this woman was hugging and holding onto the mother crying and the mother was comforting this woman...surreal scene...and of course lots and lots of people...
ats: pfm's anger...i will buy that some of it is internal...but when he is busy slammin....its been because he is pissed at me...and generally he is pissed at me, pissed that i am not reconcilling, pissed that i am not forgiving, pissed because i am not pleasant to him, pissed because i try to ignore him, pissed because i want a divorce....basically pissed at me because i am not being who he wants me to be...gotta love the irony of that one...
0115: no do over..we all wish for it...but no sense in wishin for what we cannot have, unless of course its over a shooting star or birthday candles...and then of course life goes on....
follow m3's short list...
honest: why are you allowing that man to come back into the house...i dont think you need to do that...let him sleep in the downstairs apt...or better yet tell him to make other arrangements...and as for the divorce being on or off..you need some separation time to decide what you want...so you are not telling him you want a divorce if you are trying to buy more time and you are not caving to his idiocy....stand up for yourself...its time...it really is and that is why you ds is angry..he wants you to stand up for yourself.....and to stop taking the crap your ws hands you on a silver platter...
ats: i think its time you made your position quite clear and she either complies and does the REQUIREMENTS or you do what you need to do for you.....ic and mc needs to be at the top...and the rest needs to be negotiated...but and this is a really big big but...she needs to take the marriage as a unified front to EVERYONE...NO EXCEPTIONS....and that means no visits without you....no wedding without you.....and the rest of your issues can be worked out in mc...i think you need this...i think you need to feel like her priority and that your marriage together is a priority especially after all she has done....
nell: of course you have the right to be angry and should be angry....and you cannot always suppress it...but let it out and find something productive to do with the energy...i think alot of your anger and most of us actually comes because we feel that our ws's just dont get it....they dont understand how we feel..they may try but unless youre in it you really dont know...and we really need to know that they get it, really really get it in their bones get it..
and when they work just as hard as we do, personally they should be working harder since its their fault....it makes it easier to dispatch the anger and let it go...of course this is so not an overnite process...time, time consistancy of action and patience....
dip: listen bud...you are not that old....so stop...you may be older but not by a whole lot....
and you have the patience of a saint....and i too love your humor....
m3: i can tell you are still wrestling, big time...
laura: your progress has been totally astounding to me...the amount of huge shit that you have had to process and a great deal of it on top of one another....you should be one of our poster childs for the lta group...you have handled yourself with such grace and dignity....i am proud to know ya...
I have raised the issue of her putting family ahead of me twice in the last 6-8 weeks. She did not want to speak of it either time
Dip: You're right about the only legal way for DS 35 to deal with it! He has said in the beginning that he wouldn't do anything because he loves the younger ds's so much that he wouldn't hurt their father, but now he's so frustrated that he says he wants to beat him up. God, the problem is that ds is very buff, but WH has a black belt in Karate and Tae Kwon Do.
Funny thing, I watched a stupid movie last night with Nicholoas Cage.. there was a scene where a woman walked in on her SO in bed with another woman and she dragged the naked woman outside naked and everyone saw and then proceeded to punch the SO in the face. LOL, it was quite gratifying!!
Laura: I'm glad you were able to find your happy place. I've been triggering badly about mine. I used to say to WH when we were dating and first married that when we were stressed out to imagine that we were in a house on the beach with palm trees outside and white curtains blowing in the breeze. Well, when we bought our beach house overseas, it was on the water with palm trees and he said, "Now get your white curtains. This house is yours" Then I find out that he brought OW there in MY bedroom there all the time. She used up all my perfume. He spoke to me today about some financial stuff. I could hear the OC's in the background and he said he was at that beach house. So I know damn well that OW is there with him in MY bedroom with my white curtains.
It's not just that he's given her that house, IT'S MY DREAM that he's given away. KWIM???
Hugs to you 0115.
Miracle: you are in my thoughts.
Another update: I was in my local supermarket and a guy around my age was trying to pick me up and asked me to go out for coffee with him!!!
My self esteem is soooo low, all I was thinking was that there was something wrong with him. I didn't have makeup on, I looked a mess...I'm overweight because of the damn meds and my depression.
But, you know what??? Boundaries, damn it. My first thought was "I'm married. That's it! No way!"
Fucking WS's had no boundaries!! I have a thousand reasons to say to myself it's fine, it's ok, I'm really not married to Wh after everything, etc.
I know I'm not ready. I don't trust myself or my gut anymore. I got scared, and I don't think it was because of this guy, but I don't trust myself.
Ok, I'm ready for the 2 x 4's. I trust your opinions.
Just to let you all know, I read everything, and can't always respond or have good advice, but believe me, you are all in my thoughts and prayers and I can't thank you all enough!!
You are way to kind. You brought a tear to my eye.
Thank you for all the wise advice, support and encouragement. You got me here.
PS Hope it doesn't all come crashing down one day
You are right, Miracle. I have been trying to buy time. I used to be the person who did everything. Took everything in my own hands. Everyone relied on me. I was strong. This trauma almost killed me. IC was right about PTSD. I'm just getting on my feet. For far too long I knew what I had to do, but just couldn't do it. I was lucky I was getting out of bed and just breathing. Too long just doing that.
The veil over my eyes is finally starting to lift. Today I took ds 12 fishing at a local lake and took the dog for a walk. I actually was enjoying the scenery, smelling the honeysuckle in the woods, seeing a huge snapper turtle in the stream. DS 12 caught a couple of sunfish and I saw swans with their babies.
I couldn't appreciate any of this a year ago, or even months ago. I'm starting to wake up to the world.
Thanks to all of you.
I do think MC this Friday will be a suprise for FWW and MC. I am preparing notes and my statement.
She texted tonight she is not having fun, she is afraid she will snore (her sister makes a big deal of this), she is ready to come home. This is what she left for after I returned from travel and Fathers day weekend. Still, they took her out for a fancy meal and she is at a waterfront house with guys doing yoga on the deck, so how bad can it be?
Oh, and honest, I empathise with your concerns over boundaries. I have the same problem. they are no longer automatic, and I find myself flirting, standing closer than I need to, and the scary thing is I am not rejected, It is accepted.
iwam, I was not defending pfm. I just think his frustration with HIMSELF and what he has done comes out as anger at you sometimes. Typical WS, he blames you for how he feels.
honest, we x-posted. I like swans, they are a great metaphor. All calm and serene on the surface, but feet working like hell underneath.
eta, plus: I have my 2 months... do I go for 3? I guess MC will be the big event next week.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:45 PM, June 17th (Friday)]
Got to go cause its a big weekend, but here's a hint....it came from reading Codependent No More. Thanks to whoever posted about reading it. I've been doing work about control and letting go since the beginning but something connected in me as I read.
Freedom is in my grasp.......
I seem to be on a roll tonight (or drunk ). I think I coined a new tern in JFO tonight Trickle R (R). Just as TT is the WS providing just enough truth to get by without coming fully clean, TR is providing just enough "R" actions to keep the BS from pulling the trigger. After all, s/he is trying. Both are just forms of damage control by the WS.
It occurred to me that if FWW is really ready to come home and not having fun, what a huge statement it would be for her to have her sister drive her home tonight, a 45 minute (or so) drive, explaining she was uncomfortable being away from me after I had been out of town and the past issues. She won't do this though. It would be embarrassing for sil, it would be viewed has more odd behavior by FWW. Still, were she to knock on the door, come in and tell me how she missed me and wanted to reconnect after are time apart, that would be a huge impact and statement. Hell, for what she paid for food today she could pay cab fare to come home.
The possibility of finding an older version of one of you LTA ladies is a strong temptation to starting over. I know that none of you is perfect (well maybe iwam is ), but you are all open to talking, negotiating, and building an intimate relationship.
FWIW, I do have a new sense of direction in my life. Garmin repaired my gps plotter. I just need to get it reinstalled on the boat and set a course.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 12:14 AM, June 18th (Saturday)]