Just thinking about you and your kids all day today. No advice, just prayers.
I think that this may be my version of the 180. I just cannot do it when FWH is in the same house. I always end up offering to cook us both dinner, or he asks me what I'm doing for dinner so that he can "join" me. It's too complicated and honestly, I have a hard time constantly pushing him away. I don't want to hurt him, but every time I push him away I see that I am. Is that stupid?? After what he's done maybe it is....but that's just how I'm wired....eternally polite. Having him physically move out and not be in this house has taken a huge load off of me. I can be ME, whoever that is any more.
Allgood - stop fighting it and him. He's an adult and he either will or won't wake up and realize that's he on the verge of losing the very best thing in his life...YOU. Step back from "helping" him see what he needs to do. Honestly, as njgal said, and as I'm finding out, it's not until the WS really hits bottom that they are motivated to change. Since my FWH is bunking at his parents house, I'm gonna guess that he's hitting bottom. That may be what is takes for Mr. Allgood to "get it."
Sending positive thoughts your way! You can do this!!
I feel very confident too that we need to separate. I also have 4 small children that mean more to me than anything & quite frankly, I'm experiencing a lot of guilty in doing what's best for me when it comes at their expense. And, honestly, I can candy coat it if I like, with sayings like "If Mommy's not happy, no one is happy" or "They know more than you think & they will probably be relieved", but the raw truth is that I am 100% putting myself ahead of my children in doing this. This is not a situation where there is so much hostility, tension, etc that they are better off with the separation.
I also firmly believe that this marriage IS over, but it's not just my future I have to think about.
Having said all of that, I plan on going ahead and telling the kids today. I do not believe he has hit bottom yet & to be honest, if he hits bottom after we tell the kids & moves out, it will be 10 million times harder for me to agree to work it out because I will blame him for not taking any 1 of the 1 million chances I gave him to fix this before involving the kids.
I will also doubt his motives if it takes him moving out to realize what he's lost.
So, don't worry about me, I was derailed, but back on track.
And I agree that if your WS's can't see what they're losing before they hit "rock bottom" then is that really the kind of person we want to be M to? That is my current struggle.
I wish I knew the words to help you today. Just know that I'm thinking of you and sending hugs your way.
for me though the consequences would be far worse is i separated now, before manchild was on solid footing...my other kids i know will be fine...manchild...not...but he will be soon...sooner then i orignally thought...there are times i see the maturity in him that astounds me and makes me so so proud....
strong: you sound so at peace with your course...and as much as you are at peace with your decision i still know that your hurting....
fun: well that shit with your son sucks...sometimes being a mom is not only not fun, fustrating and downright hurtful but it makes you wonder how, why and when we will they get straight.... .....im sorry your son seems to be doing some stupid of his own...i hate when they do stupid...so damned unneccesary...
your business...sending some prayers for it to do more the skating by...
laura: i have to say i understand all to well about the inlaws...that was the one big bonus from d-day...i got to lose them...
miracle house update:
the kids had a great time...there was even this one kid who is on a scale of 1-10 shy...is an 11...anyways, whilst they were all changin for the pool there was a moment where he and i were in the kitchen and i asked him if he had a good time...well this kids face totally lit up...that is also his other issue...he has the most emotionless face anyone has ever seen...very monotone...anyways...his face is all lit up and he said he danced up a storm...he said "they (the other kids) made him dance"...and boy was he happy about it...
he was only going to stay an hour after prom...he stayed for 3 hours....at 3:15 he was picked up....the kids had a great prom, and a great after prom....the last one just left about a half hour ago....
the next party is in an hour...the mom, (this is the one who lost her daughter)..she is barely hangin on...but she is doin it....talk about strong...i give her an amazing amount of credit...
i am so so tired...i crashed at about 4:30ish, only 2 were left awake and i knew not for long...and then i was up 4 hours later...it was so much easier to do this when i was younger...
it will be ok allgood...it will be ok...maybe not right away but it will be...
Talk from this morning carried over to this evening. There were points in the conversation where I felt convinced there was no way this was going to ever work (us staying together) and there were points when I held out some hope as I must admit, I do feel like he loves me and wants to stay together.
We took a break from talking to have dinner & play with the kids & of course, I was extra sensitive to how the kids, really the youngest 2, really do adore him & how happy they are when we are all together.
So, I canceled the conversation with the kids today. I can't do that under these circumstances.
I went for a run & cleared my head. There really is nothing to indicate that he is going to change. So far, he's said he can stop lying to me & won't go to work events.
But, it just doesn't feel "right". Maybe I'm just feeling overly confident because he seems to want this to work more than me for the 1st time in a long time.
I'm spending the rest of the evening with the 2 youngest kids away from him. We will talk again after they go to sleep.
Hang in there honey!
No advice for anyone... just admiration for the strength of our tribe members!
IWAM... I wish I could go back to Prom/Graduation time for our kids. It was such a happy time in our lives.
We moved/were transferred East shortly after the last grad celebration and I think that's when life got difficult and my H couldn't handle the stress and turned outside the marriage instead of his wife of 30 yrs. Hers was a carefree kind of existence (despite being a single mother) with a social life that IMO he always envied... to the point of not being able to leave the after-work group at the bar until the bitter end despite telling me he'd only make an appearance, have one drink and come home! It never turned out that way though. Oh how hindsight is 20/20. If I'd only known about the 180 then!
anyway... night all.
as i see it you have 2 choices right now...let him stay and prove his committment to the marriage by making certain requirements to do so, retrovaille or strongs onsite program...intense mc and ic.....or choice number 2 which is to keep to the plan and s.....
trust your gut above all....if it doesnt feel right it probably isn't....
for what its worth, i also believe the man loves you to the best of his ability...and i am not sure he is a truly willing participant in trying to love you above that, to become the man he ought to have been all along...
and then on the flip side i so understand..you have 4 small kids...whose lives depend on both of you, whose lives will be totally disrupted.....so i understand wanting to be absolutely sure.....and sometimes we can never be absolutely sure...and that is when we need to follow the path of least regret...
it sucks, all the way around it sucks
lostsuol...i am sorry if i invoked some memories that make you melancholy....i would rather that you could remember them with a fondness as opposed to regret....because i dont believe you regret that time, and we do not come built knowing or having that 20/20 hindsight...we do the best we can with what we have and when we know better we do better....so i hope you remember the times with a smile on your face and the only melancholy you feel is for the time having gone by so quickly which is the usual feeling for most moms...
you cant go back, you can only live in the present and prepare for the future...
miracle update: well one kid is back to sleep over tonite, the one who lost his sister...and earlier i went onto fb tonite and i was freinded by one of the girls that spent the nite...the kid who he here again had friended me last week....i was touched...i know its some kind of status thing to accumulate a huge number of fb friends...but its usually your peers and not your friends moms...so that is the way i am choosing to look at it...and i am stickin to it...
Right now WH is at his quarterly conference. I've been dreading it, especially because of the triggers from last years. I was really feeling the fog from him at that time. WH was of course thrilled that I have let go of the anxious/control regarding his travel. I don't know if he understands though the path that I am working through.
Right now I'm just trying to feel my feelings and think about what I want. Can I live with someone that travels this much? Drinks a lot while away? Doesn't understand boundaries? So yes, I understand that I can't control his behavior or wish enough for him to get it. Sad. Everyone says I'll know when I know. Here's hoping.
Can we share our personal blog site on here or no?
Hugs to you all. I hope your weekend is a nice one. I'm exhausted..up till 3 am last night getting pep talks and smack downs from my girlfriends. They all want me to walk. Wish it was that easy for me.
Miracle - I have never initiated friending one of my kids friends on FB, but if they ask me to be their friend then I will confirm it. I try to keep a very small profile on FB and rarely post anything on my kids page or on one of their friend's pages unless they have initiated a post to me. I think it shows that your kids friend's like and respect you that they are interested in keeping in contact with you. Yay Miracle! But it's not just the young people that benefit from your kindness and comfort. I see you doing that every day here with the Tribe. You are a very special mom and friend and I am so grateful that you are here to support us in addition to all you are doing with keeping your family together.
Allgood - How are you doing?? Check in with us when you get a minute.
He's not acting like an ass. He's acting very loving, but not really anything other than that. No ephiphany, doesn't really seem open to doing things differently, etc.
Basically, he wants us to stay together, but has no idea how to break the cycle of me feeling bad & him getting frustrated that I'm feeling bad & us both being unhappy. As far as his "bad boy" behavior, I said that he would have to not go to any work related events & not stay out all night long & not lie to me. He says he can do these things, except the staying out all night - we both know that once he's out, he's out. He'll promise one thing, but it will all fall by the wayside once he's out.
He really doesn't seem to be contributing much to this conversation, but he does seem like he doesn't want us to break up. O - and on that note- that's what he thinks is happening now. Not that it happened months ago, or when we signed the agreement, but when we tell the kids it's official in his eyes.
No real substantive answers that reflect any kind of deep soul searching or change in attitude.
He just thinks that he has not cheated on me for the past 2 years & that should say a lot to me. (I'm paraphrasing based upon the partial sentences he uttered.)
So, what to do?
First off - what an ass for not saying a damn thing for the past few months.
And, now he's on vacation, so here we have all these opportunities to be a family. Like today, he planned to go to the beach. So, I am going to the beach, but I really haven't had a change of heart in that I know that he's not going to be able to meet my needs & short of a lobotomy, I'm not going to be able to be his happy cheerleader with no needs of my own.
But, is it bad enough to break up the kids' family?
I do believe my eldest, 13, deserves some kind of explanation. While he does not typically pay attention to anything, never mind his parent's relationship, he is also my most sensitive child & he may need some explanation of what's been going on here.
The 10 year old too.
But, then I'm sure they would tell the 7 year old....
I honestly don't know what the Hell I'm doing.
I never outed my WH to anyone 12 years ago except 1 counselor. This time I have told 2 friends and just recently my sister. He is sooooo humiliated and I think it has made a difference that people know. We haven't told the kids and won't unless we officially separate/divorce. Does anyone else know? If you tell someone other than the kids it might knock him in the head and show him you WILL do this and HE better get working a lot harder.
Just thoughts...good luck
I don't know your sitch, but if I were in your shoes right this minute, knowing what I know about Onsite, I would run, not walk, to sign you and your WH up for one of their coupleship programs. I know, I know, you've got little kids and it's not easy to find someone to watch them for a week; do you really want to expend that much time/effort/money on a WH that still may not "get it"; why should you do all the work to find/coordinate going to some cockamamy workshop when your WH is the one that had the LTA....Honey, I know, really I do. But I also see that your heart is still not 1000% in the S, if it was then you would have pulled the trigger last night. The fact that you didn't tells me that you're not done fighting yet. I wish there was a way to relate to you how life-changing the Onsite experience was for me and for my FWH. He really is very, very different now. We still have a long way to go if we decide at the end of 3 months that we want to stay together, but I honestly feel that without Onsite there would be no chance whatsoever of us repairing/rebuilding our M. And as good as the individual workshops are, I've heard that the coupleship program is even better. I think I mentioned before, that if FWH and I try to continue our M, going to the couples program will be a requirement. We both agreed on that. (Yes, I realize I sound like a crazy person about this program...yes, I realize that I treat it like it's a cure-all for marriages in trouble, but I experienced it first-hand. It really is that good. Like EMDR, I don't know why/how it works, I just know that it does.)
Hugs to you!
[This message edited by strongish at 10:19 AM, June 26th (Sunday)]
It can't hurt, you have nothing to lose if it doesn't work and a lot to gain if it does.
I think you are getting some great advice from everyone!
I think that both you and your husband sound very ambivalent about divorcing, etc.
But, the status quo cannot continue.
You absolutely need to shake things up with some kind of intense couples counseling...
away from your every day world.
It'll be worth the money...just think how expensive maintaining two households will be.
Retrouvaille, Strongish's suggestion of Onsite, any kind of intense experience...
Anne Brecht has weekend couples workshops for couples dealing with infidelity, The Gottmans have weekend retreats for couples in Seattle Washington.
If you set one of those weekends/weeks up and then your husband refuses to go...well, then you have your answer.
If he doesn't want to invest one week or one weekend of marriage counseling then he can't be serious about reconciling...
and.. Allgood, Lost Soul, and Awakened....you all have the same after work drinking till all hours problem that I used to have with my husband....
The husbands can all deny they have alcohol problems...and you as the BS can insist that binge drinking is not alcoholism...but, IMHO it is.
Whenever your drinking causes problems with your spouse, interferes with your marriage, or is something that has become an issue..well, then that's a problem.
For most non -drinkers...being told that they cannot stay out till all hours of the night with co-workers is not a problem...
its a no brainer...that type of behavior is counter productive to creating a loving bond with your spouse.
And it should be easy to give up...especially if it may mean the difference between losing your marriage and saving it!
So... again IMHO... exploring AA and ALANON is also an option.
I agree with everyone. You have all the time in the world. What difference would it really make if you S in 6 months time instead of now?
My sister wanted me to leave FWH immediately after dday and then next month and next month and every month until EMDR started to help me. But as I kept telling her - with or without him I would still be suffering. At least with him he was there to console me. I know your H is not nearly remorseful enough but if you try some of these experiences it can't hurt and may help.
Such a hard decision for you.
Basically, he wants us to stay together, but has no idea how to break the cycle of me feeling bad & him getting frustrated that I'm feeling bad & us both being unhappy.
I have felt this frustration. After my reading lately I am coming to the painful conclusion that my WH cannot break this cycle. Only I can. I have tried for 11 months to tell him my feelings and concerns. I keep looking to him to help me feel better. He, in return, feels guilty and defensive and therefore makes me feel worse. I wish I had a dime for every time I thought, if only he would say _____ or do_____. For my own peace of mind and the health of my future I have come to the conclusion that I MUST let go of this. He is not my bandaid. If this doesn't work, I don't want to go into the future looking for a person to fill in that blank. I need to fill in the blank. Now I will approach this relationship with my health in mind, while giving him the space to come to his own conclusions. I have finally absorbed the 180.
Will it be hard to pull the plug if I have to? Oh yeah. But hopefully by then I won't have an anxious feeling in my gut.....only a strong one. Hugs to you....we can do this!
Been out all day, so just catching up now.
Thank you all for commenting on my sitch & sharing your thoughts/experiences with me.
In answer to a few questions:
Many people know about the A. Everyone at my stbx's workplace knows & about 2 of his friends outside that circle of friends, his sister & 3 of my friends & their spouses (1 of which is very good friends with my stbx.)
He's already had that reality check.
If there were no kids involved, he'd have moved out months ago. I am just FEARFUL of how this will impact my kids. I am 100% sure he cannot give me what I need. Not now, not ever. This many will not agree to go to to any of these couples retreats. He's not going to go to mc, not that I even mentioned it.
We were actually out with his partner today. At one point when both stbx & all of my kids were out of the area, his partner said how happy he was to see us together & I told him that there's no reason to be happy as I havent' agreed to work it out with him. He claims that they talk about this stuff all the time & he just needs a little more time.
I find that ridiculous.
To be perfectly honest, if he was doing "everything" and all I had to manage was the pain of the betrayal, I still don't know that I would really ever be able to let that go.
I'm just not happy with him. Is it bad enough to warrant doing this to my kids? That's the question.
And, what's the rush? Well, I waited all this time for this moment to tell the kids so they could spend the summer getting used to their new schedule. So, with each passing day of indecision that window of opportunity is closing.