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User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 26
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Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Am I naive to think that my WH's efforts are genuine?
No. You don’t feel safe. Asked him to please do things that can help you feel safe. Tell him what that is.
- Please call me an let me know where you are
- Tell me how you feel about me, everyday
- I feel good when you tell me how sorry you have been.. please tell me often.
Am I fooling myself into seeing good that isn't really there?

No you see it. After someone hurts you, some do and can change behaviors.
You are living in fear. You made a promise, you believed in a promise. This promise was made under God too. Imagine that, someone breaking a promise to God. You got fooled and you question reality. And you know what else? Life is going to fool you again and again. It is the chance we take when we R. It is a risk in life. Get ready! Another lie in life is about to slap your ass down. I'm ready! I am going to just take that lie and MAKE IT MY NEW REALITY!
Holy shit. I am terrified every minute that he is going to hurt me again, that I'm going to wake up one day and he'll tell me he was just fucking with me and now he's leaving (I have dreams like this all the time). Am I making it easier for him to do that to me?

You can R and the fact remains who really know’s if our partners will cheat again? It is not under our control. If you can find strength inside yourself to feel this… For you, YOU can live without this man. You can be happy on your own or with any number of 1000’s of other good men.

How can you achieve this strength? I got it from watching my divorced friends. I could see each on of them find new relationships. Not all worked on the first try but they kept searching. All have found good woman. (You are a potentially good woman for someone right this minute!) You have to know it. You have to feel it. Sure, it can be scary, but that feeling is different then knowing, You have the attractive features to be a good woman to another man. It does not matter if you are young, old, fat, skinny… There is someone that wants to find someone just like YOU! If you give him a second chance, It will be OK. So you are right back to a same place you have been. Maybe then it is the time to move on.

How do you know if any of it is real????

You don’t or won't. People lie. But you can know if he is lying to you again. You sure as heck have ways to know. Is he texting a lot? Calling a lot? Unexplained money missing, bad reasons to be alone.. etc.. It is much harder to have an affair after dday because you need to lose your innocents. It take special situations for someone to have an A. They must have freedom. You just be wise to understand that freedom you give and ask your H to please help you know his freedom is honest freedom.

I told my W many times in the beginning of R'ing. “If you need your OM, please, just go. I will be OK on my own. Please have the courage and strength to just tell me.” “I will be all right if you want someone else to love” “Please, no need to hide and lie.” “We can be Ok without each other, so if you need another woman, just tell me when you start feeling it. It will be OK”

To summarize...

-Work on yourself to love yourself enough to have the confidence a good man wants you... or even that you can be on your own! you don't need someone to help make you happy.
- It is ok to R. It is OK to give trust to someone that hurt you. You accept the risk you take.
- Fear is a feeling. It is full of unknowns. Make some personal boundaries that will help you eliminate some fears.
A good book to read is Boundaries in Marriage by Dr Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:20 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Broken & Lonely:

1st off:

Me - BS (37) - Scared shitless and really pissed off
Him - WH (38) - Former love of my life, current roommate

Holy crap, can I relate to that. I was definitely feeling that way for the past 1 1/2 years.

In the end, in it's most simplest form, I decided to permanently separate from my X because he scared the crap out of me (both by his actions throughout his A and after DDay) and he didn't do anything to change that.

My only advice is to trust (a little, at least), but verify. Try to see what he is doing now that he wasn't doing during the A. Has he changed? Is he remorseful, empathatic, etc. Does he want to discover the source of anything that would've led up to the A, with him and/or with the M.

Damn, got to go.

[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:56 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday)]

Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought I would share some real relationship situations. On Monday, I get the” silent treatment” for something I really didn’t understand why? I knew things were hard at her work but I also needed some time to relax, have fun, and just think about some happy things. I did my own thing for me. And, I liked it! I didn’t want to lay around watch The Batchelrette or whatever.

I could have handled this silence treatment many different ways. The silent treatment is horrible. It really is bad behaviors and very unattractive. It certainly is not desirable. I could have come back with more undesirables. LIKE.. “WTF is this about!” or “whatever”, even retaliated with my own silent treatment. But no, I decided to affirm her. This is the new me. I work hard to behave like the following. I try to listen before my feelings go bad. So... I chose to just lover her.

I wrote her this note.

I just wanted you to know I am glad you are my wife. You work hard and I want to express my gratitude to you. The fun I have around you is pleasure to my soul. Hoosier Park is that “I’m Bad” and “easy money” feeling when we go. It is not near as fun without you. I love going to the games with you because that time with you makes me feel cheerful. You give me those feelings and I thank you for that. Your cooking is outstanding and my 36 waist is proof. I cannot resist the flavors of T. Your beauty and my attraction is strong for you. It is me that needs the morning spoon because of your magnetism. Your intelligence makes me feel curious, concerned and spirited. I do appreciate you and not always said but always felt.

That’s just me.
Then did some grill’n.. Chicken! It was good too.

It is amazing what happens when you choose to love someone. I gave her that love of affirmation and the love of service.. I cooked.

She apologized for her treatment of me. I listened and she explained how she feels betrayed by a gf at work. She got her GF this job and she is leaving with the other partners. The breaking up of her company is making her feel stress and uneasiness… It really is like a D, a company D. I just listened and told her I will be here if she needs me to do something.

So, It has worked out. Our tentions are gone. I forgive her too for being a bitch.

Off to have a good day. Cya.

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:49 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like your whole post. Do you suggest The New Codependence or Co-Dependent No More (for me)? I don't know that I can stomach tackling both. It seems way too co-dependent to read everything you're reading. Or does it? I don't know, what do you think?

Ha! Codependent? Depends on why...

I am fascinated by the whole "codependent" thing.

But before I ramble about it: the answer to your question is: Read The New Codependence unless you already have Codependent No More. Codependent No More is a fast and easy read. The New Codependence is a bit chewier and I'm acutally re-reading it, which is unusual for me. It also has exercises to do, which I will probably do when I read it a third time. So, I find it more useful and it also talks about narcissistic behavior as a form of co-dependence in our "new society" which I think will be highly useful to you given what you've said about Mr. Nell. He and Mr.M3 have that in common -- the do-gooder narcissist thing and I find myself wondering whether either of them is truly a narcissist per se or if they simply have "fleas" from being raised in toxic environments.

To ramble for a moment about my fascination with codependence -- I've been behaving in codependent ways -- but I don't actually think I'm *naturally* codependent. Perhaps it's a learned behavior for everyone. I don't know. It was my trained response to a partner not pullling his weight. It never surfaced in my 1st marriage because my XH wasn't like that. My MOTHER is textbook and given her FOO it's quite easy to see why. She also did that "Silently Seduced" thing to my sister where she had inappropriate boundaries with her. With me, it was Munchausen's by proxy. Rare. Very rare. My sister and I didn't realize our "normal" was very NOT normal until we each got therapy in our early 30's.
So, I think a LOT of it for me is also "fleas".

But, it also struck me that she writes that there is a "seven year rule" for people recovering from substance abuse where after somewhere between 7 and 9 years of sobriety, roughly, they hit a wall with their codpendence problems and have to treat that to get truly well. I found the timing of this rule to be fascinating, because dilligently working on this codependence stuff is helping me in HUGE ways and it's been a little over six years since my treatment for bipolar disorder stabilized me medically.

I am less stable when pregnant though. And my WH asks me to have another baby at LEAST twice a week. I think he is more comfortable when I'm ill -- I'm easier to blame, and moodier, and he can "get away" with more. He wants more kids, but certainly doesn't want to take care of the ones we have properly. More selfishness.

Ah, Nell, one other thing I wanted to say: there is a third option. One that we don't talk about much. It seems like people discuss only two options:

(1) Divorce
(2) Completely reconcile with a truly remorseful spouse who is busting his/her tail

but there is a third:
(3) Remain married to a non-remorseful spouse who is more likely to do this again and simply make the "marriage" relationship a nominally important life relationship.

My WH's IC, soon after Dday, asked me why people stay with unfaithful spouses. I turned it over and over in my mind, and the only reason I was ever able to come up with was:

Because the relationship confers upon them certain other benefits that it would be difficult or impossible to obtain elsewhere.

That's about it. Would Hillary Clinton be Secretary of State if she'd divorced? Probably not.

I'm not saying that's a way to live. But it is an option.

Broken and Lonely -- some WS's make tremendous efforts. They are often genuine. I've seen a person change -- my father was severely depressed and while he was NOT a WS, my mother did eventually throw him out and THEN he got VERY serious. IC weekly for a year. Medication. Group therapy weekly for FIVE years. Today he is a changed man. Yes, people do truly change.

BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

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Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You've described my current frame of mind with
Remain married to a non-remorseful spouse who is more likely to do this again and simply make the "marriage" relationship a nominally important life relationship.

Because the relationship confers upon them certain other benefits that it would be difficult or impossible to obtain elsewhere.

I'm just going to brain-dump now. Anyone mind? No? Great.

Point 1: The glue that holds this marriage together is finances and children. I keep going back to Shirley Glass's book where she says that staying together for the children is fine AT FIRST. I think I still fall in the "at first" category. It's not been a year since DDay#2.

Point 2: I make half (or less) than WH because of choices I made to sacrifice for this family. It's likely that I will never catch up financially. Which is fine if I'm not responsible for the care, feeding and education of two small children. But I have the Boyos and their interests are important to me. Including their financial interests. (Let us be real... paying for extracurricular activities, surgeries, medication, college are REAL EXPENSES and divorce, as njgal points out, is expensive.)

Point 3 (which is, as I read over this, just a restatement of point 2): I have basically chosen (with WH's encouragement) to put my career on hold so that I could be home with the Boyos, etc. Which was fine when we were a partnership but seems like a bad choice in retrospect. Even if I stop being home for the Boyos after school to oversee homework, etc., at this point, I will likely never achieve what I could have had I focused on moving up the ladder. While my sacrifices should count for something, legally none of it matters and if we divorce *I* will pay a very high price for having been the better person. I will pay that price. Not WH. Me. I have seen a lawyer, I know whereof I speak.

Point 4: I feel peaceful (tryn, that's in response to one of your Nell's Page posts) when I take WH out of the equation. If I could change one thing in my life, I would move closer to my family. Divorce would not change my location (right now) because I would not sacrifice time with my Boyos to live closer to my parents, sister, rest of my family and BFF. (WH has made it abundantly clear that he has zero intention of even contemplating the idea of moving... he likes it here so he will stay here. The end.) I've got 13 more years in this state and then I can move and not sacrifice time with my Boyos. I can not overstate the amount of love I have for them and the joy I get from being around them. I will sacrifice my desires for their good. Their father won't, but we've already covered that ad naseum.

Point 5: WH has basically taken himself out of the equation. He is either incapable or unwilling to make this marriage and/or me a priority. Whether it's because of ADHD, uncaring, narcissism, his FOO, or where the moon was in relation to Jupiter when he was born... he just isn't doing what he needs to do. He knows... he knows enough that he can immediately come up with the appropriate phrases when necessary. He'll take and he'll react and he'll spout words. But, as miracle said, I'm tired of having to lead the damn horse. He knows exactly where the water is and the route to take to get there and if he's not going to drink... well...?

Point 6: Divorce does not scare me. I'm looking at the cold, hard facts of it. It would suck, but I could handle it the same way I handle everything else: with courage, with intelligence and with honor. I'm just not ready to go there yet.

His efforts might be genuine. Only you can decide for yourself whether they are. Of course you're afraid! Once bitten twice shy.

How do you know if any of it is real????

If it's real for you, it's real. You're dealing with the facts as you know them. His lies don't make the time he was in the A less real FOR YOU. You were living your authentic life. And now you know more, can watch for more things, are learning more so you can live an even more authentic life. It's okay to not know and to "go with the flow" for a while. (Said the hypocrite... hello, Nell? Read yourself.)

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 10:06 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday)]

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone. It's so helpful to hear your encouragement.

miracle - I get what you're saying about regret. That's one of the big reasons I agreed to R. I don't want to look back and wonder what if or have to tell my daughter that mommy didn't try. I don't feel like I'm really trying though. I want to, I just can't get into it.

njgal - Your story is inspiring and gives me hope. How were you able to embrace the new him and let go of the resentment? I'm so torn between wanting to love him and wanting to hate him but I can't do either. I'm stuck.

tryn - You're right on the money with what you're saying. It's all about fear. I think its a good sign that I know what the problem is. I just don't know how to fix it. He's doing the things you suggested but I still don't feel safe with him.

The logical, rational side of me sees the things he's doing. He's a model WS, doting and remorseful, attentive, reassuring and praising, everything he should be and more. The broken, hurt side of me shuts him down and gets angry every single time he does something nice and repeats over and over, don't be a fool, remember what he did to you, don't be a fool. The broken side is always so much louder and more aggressive and wins out over logic.

I have never been a risk taker, ever. Even as a kid I was very cautious, weighing the outcome of every action before making a move. This is the biggest, scariest, most overwhelming and life changing risk I've ever faced and I don't know that I'm up for it either way, to stay or leave. I just want to hide from it all.

If you had asked me before all of this happened, I would have agreed that I was a good woman and a great catch for any man. I was confident and strong, I was fun and loved to laugh, I was ambitious with a good job, I was cute and had great curves, I was kind and giving to everyone, I could rock a pair of stiletos just as easily as tennis shoes, I loved me and felt that I should and would be loved by others.

I lost all of that during the A years and after d-day. I have no confidence anymore, I never lost the baby weight I gained 2 yrs ago, I still have my job but I'm failing miserably at it now, I have crows feet and a saggy ass, I have no joy in my heart, I don't love myself anymore and I don't feel lovable. I'm a complete mess.

My WH says that I'm his mess and he loves me more than ever. I hear the sincerity in his voice and I want to love him for saying it but all I feel is anger at him because he made me this way and anger at myself for letting him. I am working on myself though and trying to find my way back to the person I was before I stopped caring about me.

I read the note you gave to your wife. It's lovely and it gives me hope. I want so much to choose the love first like you did and to feel that way again.

Allgood - I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. You seem so strong and I'm glad you have that. I'm going to take your advice and trust a little. I'm going look for the good things he's doing now instead of the bad things he did then.

It's so hard to let go of the bad. I feel like every time I smile or laugh with him, I'm saying that what he did is ok. Everytime I flirt a little, I'm telling him it wasn't a big deal and I'm over it now. Whenever I let him in a little, I end up pushing him back out and further away.

I hate that this is my life now.

Me - BS (37) - Stronger & Wiser, Cautiously off the fence
Him - WH (38) - Earning his F
Daughter (2) - Light of our lives
Together 12yrs, Married 10, Friends for 20+
D-day 2.5.11
Attempting to find each other again

Posts: 381 | Registered: Mar 2011
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Default  Posted: 9:46 PM, August 3rd (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

M3.. IMO, The #3 option cheats you out of a complete life. If you believe your spouse is going to cheat again, then you really need to D.
"Happiness is the consequence of personal effort. You fight for it, strive for it, insist upon it, and sometimes even travel around the world looking for it. You have to participate relentlessly in the manifestations of your own blessings. And once you have achieved a state of happiness, you must never become lax about maintaining it. You must make a mighty effort to keep swimming upward into that happiness forever, to stay afloat on top of it."
— Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat, Pray, Love)

BTW… I choose to be codependent on my W. She is my partner in life and she can be dependent on me too.

Nell.. Please allow me to give you something to think about.
#1 Books aren’t always right in your situation.

#2 Money will never buy you happiness. Sure money makes it easier in life, but let me assure you, that money is meaningless when misery is present. Misery is not worth the cost of peace of mind. If you are in debt, then in America, we have ways to pull yourself out. You can catch up. What make you think you cannot find a new partner that would love to give you the gift of money. A hot chick has a high chance of finding a good man who has had some success too.

#3 Homemaker no doubt have careers placed on hold. That is life. You are a baby at 38! Are you crazy? You can go back to school and be anything you wish by 42! Then you have 20 years to make a fortune. You are a still a kitten. So much stuff can happen in just a few short years.

#4 I think you should reconsider your priorities in life. 13 years? Really? You’ll be 50 and regret every bit of it. Don’t do it. Life is way too short. You are not at peace so do something about it.

#5 I lead most of the time and it is not so bad.

#6 Are you lying to yourself? Who are you kidding girl?

broken&lonely… Consistency brings a safe feeling. It takes time.. as Iwant says.. it’s earned. I am down 6 pounds since June. You can join the Y or gym. It takes some effort. Do Adkins Girl! It’s mostly diet anyway. One of the greatest feelings in the world is losing a pound! FYI… My W could weight anything. It would not matter to me. I would love her every bit as much as I do right now. You gotta get your mojo back. Do it!

[This message edited by trynhard at 9:49 PM, August 3rd (Wednesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 6:44 AM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gotta make this short before my computer hijacks me again to another page.
(I really need to get that fixed.)

Nell: Just caught up with you. How are you today? I totally understand the dynamic you are describing. What do you think you can do to make things better for yourself? Cuz, let's face it, you are the only one who can make it better.
Thinking of you & hoping you get the peace you need & deserve.

Tryn: thanks for the photo/laughs.

Honest: Where the Hell are you?

M3: Also thinking of you & hope you are doing well. How are things with the house? Have you made any decisions about what you are going to do when the house sells?

Miracle: Yay manchild!

Me: Stbx moved out Tues night. All is fine here. Bigger change for the kids is expected today as he will be leaving before dinner today.

Peace to all.

Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm just going to brain-dump now. Anyone mind? No? Great.

Yes, I mind! Erase it all! JUST KIDDING. This made me laugh out loud :)

tryn -- i'm going to get all semantical on you: there is a difference between codependence and interdependence. codependent would have been your wife's bitch silent treatment ruining your night.

B&L: time is a great healer. njgal has let go of a LOT of resentment just since last Christmas. but she has a lot more to say about that than I do.

Tryn: I'm not sure I was advocating that 3rd option as a great way to live. But it exists. What does that song say? "When you come close to selling out -- reconsider." I don't think either Mr.Nell or Mr.M3 make enough $$$$ for the 3rd option to be a genuine consideration -- but I also think that there really IS an amount of money that might be enough. I guess I'm just cold that way. Money can't buy happiness or love, but it can put a big dent in solving many of life's problems.

I will say, also, that I would have lived in a shack on food stamps with WH if he'd loved me. So, yes, love is better.

Allgood -- thanks for asking about me. I have made absolutely no decisions about what I'm doing if/when the house sells. There is a real limit on how far I can drop my asking price, so it may sit a while. Beyond that: the plan is to move somewhere by the water where we can keep the boat at the house. But we'll see. My job is changing and now we may be able to move farther from here than I'd originally anticipated. So, I may move way far away -- maybe to the beach! Or to Texas! Or whatever. We'll see.

I'm just living in the moment. Not in a stick-your-head-in the sand kind of way. In a good way.

Ever hear the song "Why Walk When You Can Fly?" by Mary Chapin Carpenter? I've sung it to each of my children hundreds of times as a lullabye.

In this world there's a whole lot of trouble, baby.
In this world there's a whole lot of pain.
In this world there's a whole lot of trouble, but a whole lot of ground to gain.
Why take when you could be giving?
Why watch as the world goes by?
It's a hard enought life to be living -- why walk when you could fly?

I feel like the behaviors (codependent behaviors) I learned from my Mom that I used to react to WH's bad behaviors, that and being really ill from my bipolar, they stripped my "me" from being me. And now I'm back. I'm tired. I'm wiser. I'm carrying 40 extra pounds on my gut. I appreciate joy where I find it because I know you don't necessarily get to find it every day... but I'm me.

And I think that infidelity changes you -- at least the first time. Probably, none of us would be all that changed if there were another round from our spouses now, at least not those of us that are "old timers" now. But, I think if you're smart and if you're lucky and if you work hard it changes you for the better.

I like this practice I read about expressing gratitude for bad things as well as good. It seems ridiculous at first, but as I think about it: it's not. I'll give some examples:

I am grateful my Mother became disabled when I was 19. At the time I thought it was the end of the world, but now I know it was a gift, because when Baby Paddy was born disabled I already knew how to treat a disabled loved on just like everyone else, and so did her older brothers. So, I'm very grateful my Mother was able to provide me and my children an excellent example of how to live a full and grace-filled life as a disabled person.

Likewise, I'm VERY grateful my husband was unfaithful to me. I've grown as a person in so many ways that I might never have grown otherwise. Spiritually, I've learned more about the true and best nature of my relationship with and dependence of God. I've learned how to be independent. How to set things up according to my best interests and those of my children. How to have more intimate relationships with my friends. How to speak the truth calmly. How to recognize and reduce the ways in which I consciously and unconsciously manipulate others. What my physical and emotional limits are. I could go on and on. I really had to GROW UP. It's been painful. If you'd asked me, I would have taken the faerie tale -- but this is much better.

Nell -- what I think is this: just keep being your realest version of you. In time, the marriage will fall(fail?) where it should be.

ramble ramble ramble.

BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

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Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Who are you kidding girl?

Which part did you have trouble with? The courage, the intelligence or the honor? Okay, I admit that whole brain-dump post was obnoxious. But helpful, even if it written while I was standing on my head. But, tryn. Honestly, divorce does NOT scare me at all. I believe I have the tools now to deal with it pretty well (after the intial shock). I think about it every day, I'm sorry to tell you. There are times when the thought how would this be different if I were divorced? is my constant companion. Oh well. It is what it is.

I gotta say, though, finding a "new man to love me" is so unappealing. Just... not really a mark in the "Pro" column right now. You know what appeals about being alone? Being alone. To go home and not face that moment of "is he going to be there" as the garage door opens (insert Jaws leitmotif here), to put up lace curtains in one single room and not have to take them down because WH hates "underwear hanging in the window," to not even have the thought that there's an option of someone else taking responsibility for something and end up waiting for an extra three months before doing it myself because I just couldn't wait for the "get around to it" to actually happen, to putting a box of white wine in the refrigerator and having a glass when I feel like it without anyone looking at me sideways for it.

You all get the muddy waters of my thinking, so I just want to reassure you that I actually do feel quite a bit of peace. Living my life for me and the Boyos and focusing on the moment is great! I've come to a place where I no longer even try to think of ways to control WH. I've given up that delusion of control and it's set me free. I still struggle with my desire for him to pick up the control that I've dropped, but that's getting better, too. He knows. I just keep telling myself that he knows, I've given him the tools he needs from me, he's a part of this marriage and his actions impact it just like mine do. So I will keep being kind, working on my anger (which has subsided and been replaced with... hm... ambivalence and contempt) and now I'm working on my contempt to see what will replace that. I'll just keep working until what's left is positive, or at least neutral. I just don't want you all worrying about Nell. She's doing well, all things considered. So I'm going to get out of the middle of the tribe circle.

You're getting dangerously close to Yoda territory. I love what you're saying lately. And yet I'm concerned about what's going on in your life.

You are inspiring me. Please keep posting.

How are you? I hope you're taking care of yourself.

Has manchild crashed yet? (unless the answer is "yes," in which case ) How are YOU doing these days?


This is the biggest, scariest, most overwhelming and life changing risk I've ever faced and I don't know that I'm up for it either way, to stay or leave. I just want to hide from it all.

Just wanted to let you know, even for risk-takers (which I am solidly NOT... try not to let your shocked faces show, people)... the urge to hide from it all is pretty strong. The good news is that you will come out knowing that you are stronger than you thought you were before. Cold comfort at this point, I know. But read m3's "grateful" post and try to imagine what you are going to get out of this! Yay/boo.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You're getting dangerously close to Yoda territory. I love what you're saying lately. And yet I'm concerned about what's going on in your life.

Awesome! Start talking like Yoda I think I will....

Are you concerned about what you've actually read or is that an "I'm curious, what the heck is up with you?" concerned?

What is going on in my life?

*I'm behind at work still, but not dangerously so, and I must leave you all in a few minutes to bust my tail the rest of the day. However, I am no longer *worried* about being behind at work because I've had some sort of paradigm shift and so I'm super-efficient again. Normal, so to speak.

*My cholesterol came in so high (255, 170 LDL) that I am on Zocor and a fat-free vegetarian diet after getting a "would you please take this seriously now so I don't have to be giving you the same lecture after you've had a heart attack?!" lecture from my doctor. (I have an arrhythmia and both of my mother's parents had heart attacks by the time they were 40 -- my grandfather died of his 7th one at 43)

hmmmn... maybe the super-healthy diet is making me peppy

*I started taking my bipolar medication at night instead of in the morning and I feel much more centered.

*Baby Paddy has made LOADS of progress in the past 3 weeks due to those new shoes -- she's also a super talker which is SO much fun because it's always cool to see how a 16 month old thinks (and to hear "my mama, I love you...")

I really have a lot of blessings. I'm focusing on those. It helps a lot.

BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


it has taken time to get to where I am today.
Like m33 said I was still a heck of a lot angrier not too long ago.

In the past I've compared it to the Gary Chapman (author of The Five Love Languages) analogy of the 'Love Tank'.

I imagine this metal tank...
and before d-day,
during the LTA years
and even before due to my husband's drinking, depression, detachment,overall grouchiness etc. he had emptied my love tank. had a rusty bottom, and a leak...

and then d-day ripped that bottom right off that tank...

but, my husband began immediately trying to repair that tank and trying to re-fill it....

there were times over the last 4 and 1/2 yrs post d-day that the tank sprung leaks again (triggers, doubts, anger, a poor reaction by my husband to my questions etc.)

but, he kept working on refilling the tank by reassuring me, showing me through his actions and commitment how much he had changed and how much he wanted me and the marriage.

So...I think that is why it takes so long to recover from LTAs- there is a lot of damage and hurt to repair.

Some of the WS's bail out because they do not think that they can go on trying to repair it for seems like too daunting of a task.

M33- Yoda like- yes...
But, I would put it differently.
You may not be grateful for the disability but grateful for lessons learned afterward or grateful for the inner strength that it brought out in you...etc.

In my case- I am not grateful for the infidelity but am grateful for the changes that my husband made in himself post d-day.
I don't think that would have happened if not for the fact that he hit bottom after d-day and was finally forced to look at himself in the mirror and to take inventory of who he was, who he had become.

He could have decided that he liked who he saw and liked the lifestyle.
The MOW's husband had moved out, she was newly separated, he and I were separated... I'm sure that the OW would have loved to continue their party ways.

He saw what a wreck I was and I was not being nice to him at all...screaming, throwing things, outting him and the OW to everyone that would listen ...
but, he chose to stay and fight for the marriage.

And...a definitely what it is...
forgiveness, acceptance, reconciliation do not come overnight...
it takes time.

Allgood- Good luck tonight with the kids. Hopefully, they will get through the next few days OK.

[This message edited by njgal480 at 1:36 PM, August 4th (Thursday)]

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all

Just a note to let you know I'm still around and doing fine.

Running the show again so VERY busy. I have been able to pop in and read but no time to post.

Love what you all are saying to each other. This family is always there for each other!!! What families should be.

Hope to catch up on the weekend.

Love and hugs to all


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
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Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Trying to catch up... a lot of wisdom is being posted here. I can identify and empathize with so much that has been written but still don't seem capable of putting it into practice.

I really wish I could feel like Tryn and NJgal.

Instead I feel more like broken&lonely - questioning his actions, wondering if we can ever really 'R'. It all feels so superficial to me. We talk about every day things but nothing about feelings (his or mine).

Unfortunately I am finding PTSD from the A is affecting me full throttle right now. We are travelling in MO and I am a nervous wreck, jumping & catching my breath at every little thing as I watch the traffic. I know he is a good driver but that feeling of confidence I've had in him for over half our lives is gone. His A has traumatized me so many ways I hardly recognize myself.

He is treating me well yet I am feeling patronized by his
actions towards me. Fatigue & pain are part of my daily life but hours of travel by car and the heat are taking their toll. I slept til 11a today (he left the hotel for the convention about 8a) then took my time to get dressed and spent the p.m. doing laundry. We have been away from home a week now. Temps are 95-100+ ... perspiration drips with little exertion and I tire easily from little exertion without the heat factor!

He mentioned being happy when driving to Branson the other day. For him, it seems like the A never happened or has entirely been forgotten on his part. I don't see any signs of remorse or hear any words of gratitude for my staying in the marriage. Life just goes on... time passes... no sign of any extra effort on his part to show me he is glad I didn't make me feel special... I don't even hear 'Love you' much anymore.

I don't think anything is going on. I just don't think he realizes how much I was/still am hurt by his A and I don't know how to broach this subject calmly with him.

Time to shower for banquet tonight. {{{LTA}}}

Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
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Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, August 4th (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You've been going through a lot of changes lately, so I was wondering (worrying, niggling, thinkin' about cha) how everything was going. God bless Better Living Through Chemistry. I've gotta say, I love it when someone says "this is what's wrong with you and here's the antidote." Especially if they know what they're talking about. So good on you on the high cholesterol. Had it been me, there would have been an immediate "Oh for FUCK's sake" response, followed by a stomping to the pharmacy, followed by an "okay, this is not so bad," followed by joking with the doctor about my previous response at my next appointment. But that's just me. And, YAY for Baby Paddy! I love that girl. I wanna be that girl.

Deserve... does anyone ever get what he/she deserves? I seriously doubt it. I feel good about where I am right now, though.

I'm sorry you are not in a good place. I just wrote to a WH in the Wayward forum about his perceptions (everything's so great; I'm so happy; isn't this authentic life fantastic) does not match his BW's perceptions (is this real; last time I was happy he was lying; who the fuck IS that man). It isn't fair. We are paying a very high price for their happiness and it isn't fair. I hope that you are able to enjoy little moments and that you come out of this better. ((((lostsuol)))

I just <3 you and I hope all is well.

Okay, gotta go watch TV. Love to all.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 12:50 AM, August 5th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello gang, still alive over here. I have a lot to put out here, so I apologize in advance for the amount. My valley is deep and wide, and it helps to get the "relational strangers" perspective I guess.

The weekend was hell. Telling the kids was brutal, as bad as I imagined. My son cried for 30 minutes and my d looked up at me and smiled at first and said, "Is he kidding?" Then her anger and tears hit. The reality was palatable as it soaked through them. They had comments like, "we aren't going on that trip, I prayed this would never happen, how do we play golf all together, I thought we were lucky and now we aren't." Then, after it was over, as kids are I guess, they started planning decorating their new rooms and helping dad pack. It was odd, but I guess they needed to cling to one that was leaving.

Tryin - the pic of the rose was gorgeous. Lot's of detail there, and I love roses. Thanks to all for the kind encouragement.

The next two days were awful. We did the separating of items. I cried at the failure of it all. Even though I had lived a year of getting used to the idea, it still seemed surreal-so sad and painful. Then, on the flip side, he blame shifted all the way out the door. At times he would say I didn't deserve this and he was sorry but he also clings to his story about incompatible sex and how I make him feel like a bad person. I recognize now that I have been trying to change him thinking that way and in the end, I have no control over what someone else thinks. If that is what he tells himself and I have been trying to convince him otherwise, to no avail? Then I have to let it go. We were no closer with those last conversations to understanding each other than the first ones.

I feel numb, but I also feel relief. I finally accept that he did not want the relationship to the degree that required hard work. I have allowed him to be selfish for so many years that I believe he doesn't have a clue how to change it...especially not when it should be easy for him to hook up and have fun again. He has shown me in so many ways that loving me through this was not high on his list. This time last year we were in Europe, in pain but hopeful....enjoying an 'honest' relationship. Scratch the numb, I finally feel the anger starting to creep in. I have let go of the now I can sit in what he did.

“Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.” - Raymond Linquist
Me BS-39
Him WH-41
Married 18yrs 2 Kids 11-9
DDay#1-July 5, 2010 (LTA 2 Years with CoW in corporate office)
Separating - 8/11

Posts: 118 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: West but my heart belongs to the South
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Default  Posted: 1:15 AM, August 5th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Speaking of co-dependent....going over the book again. In a serendipitous turn of events, at the same time WH and I decided two weeks ago to pull the plug, the relationship with my mother exploded as well. I always said I married my mother......Could I please share with you the breakdown and let me know from an outside prospective - 2x4s included - if I needed to take another approach? Doubt creeps in's the gist. Below is a blog post I wrote called The Deathbed

You know those conversations with people who for some reason or another, a sentence sticks in your head….for a very long time? I was once telling an acquaintance, XXX, about my desire to watch a birth. The miracle of the space changing from one second to the next held me in awe. In one moment there are two people breathing in a room and in the next there are three. It would be a gift for me to be present in this miracle without being the one in all of the pain. He paused for just a second and said, “Yes, I agree. It’s also a miracle to be there when someone is dying. And in that instance, it’s a gift for the other person instead.”

Urgh. That was tough to hear. Three grandparents dying in a 15 month span when I was a teenager did a number on me. Death, despite my belief in Heaven, became fear number one for me for a long time. So while, I totally appreciated what he said, I questioned how long it would be before I could even have the mental ability give a gift of that nature.

I did not have to wait long to find out. Last year I was called to come say goodbye to the grandmother that I did not grow up with, but who I had shared time, birthdays, and holidays with for the last 17 years. That is the same amount of years I had spent with the grandparents of my childhood….ironic, isn’t it? When I arrived at her tiny apartment, everyone scattered about picking up other family members and getting prepared for a possible night long bedside vigil. For an hour or so my brother and I talked to her about her favorite things and I read to her from her bible. As my step-mom XXX, and Uncle XXX gathered back around her bed to check in, she moaned aloud. XXX gave her a dropper of medicine and wiped her head with a cool cloth. She settled and became quiet. I suddenly felt a wave of an indescribable feeling come over me. Cold and nauseous feeling, I excused myself to the restroom. When I returned, we realized that Grandmother had slipped away. I was amazed that my body and subconsciousness knew the happenings in room before my mind did. In one moment, there were five breathing and then there were four.

In Broken Open, Lesser writes that like being a midwife, being with those dying is a gift. “Each time I have witnessed a death, I have been enriched beyond measure – deepened in my capacity to confront my own death and inspired to live with more immediacy and passion.” I understand this now. Although I have not spoken much about this experience since last April but it did indeed profoundly change me. XXX was right in that not being alone when passing is a gift of love to the person dying. I hope she felt the comfort and love. It’s a gift that we all pray to have when the time comes. But it also was a gift to me. A fear faced, a relationship consolidated and a wake up reminder that our time is limited. And, so the journey for me began, so to speak. Thank you, dear XXX, for your hand in my awakening. I hope the gardens are lush and peaceful where your soul rests today.

“We do not know where death awaits us:
so let us wait for it everywhere.
To practice death is to practice freedom.
A man who has learned how to die
has unlearned how to be a slave.
-Michel De Montaigne

My mother, devout evangelical, ex-spouse to the Father I speak of in the post, comments on my blog - NOT an email or phone call - the following:

I have waited for awhile before I left my comment on this one, and after this past weekend I thought now the time is right. I went to Ark. to see my brother after he found out the drs. have given him a two month maximum to live, finding out the last round of chemo did not work. Once again I had to say my goodbyes to another immediate family member, and even though I will not be there when he dies, I do not in anyway consider this a gift to watch someone die. Sure, it is comforting I suppose, to the person dying that someone they know is there with them, but in reality, most of the time the person doesn't realize who is with them for they drift into a coma and then death. I watched my Mother die in her hospital room, watched her body quiver as it gave up the Ghost, according to her nurses, for she was a Christian. This left nothing but devastation to me, extreme sadness, and a sense of loss, certainly no gift, no miracle! The only comfort I felt was knowing where she was going and
I would see her again someday. If you had to watch DD or DS die, you would feel the same pain and devastation, your world would crumble around you, certainly no gift or miracle. But, these New Age people have a different way of looking at things I guess. I will stick to the old fashion way, for my only hope is in Jesus, for He is the Only Way, the Truth and the Light.

So after one upsetting, long night, I respond by email with this:

You didn’t share that you received that news about XXX. You must
be in a lot of pain right now and your post to me shows you are
hurting. I am really sorry about that.

You don’t know the full story though. The blogs of late have been a
bit cryptic in nature. The titles tell more of the story of my life
than the posts themselves. The Art of Letting Go and The Deathbed are
references to my marriage. The Funeral and Grieving are future
posts….you may not want to read them. No matter what they say, in
between the lines, they are about grieving the loss of my relationship
with the man I have loved for the last 20 years. We have been waiting
until August to tell the children and so we decided wait to tell the
parents after we tell them. He is moving out. It has been one of the
hardest decisions of my life and in some ways I cannot still believe
it. In the end, I could not sit another day in a relationship without
his compassion and the lack of trust I have for him. Yet, I still
pray for a miracle.

So yes, I did not love XXX deeply so sitting with her did not
include the intense grief of which you speak. The awakening I spoke
of in the post was after she died, I received such a detached reaction
from XXX, that it gave me another clue about his suspicious
activities. I am sorry if I made the process sound flippant or
unemotional. When I do loose someone closer to me again, I’m sure
the pain will cover my ability to see the miracle in it……but I hope
eventually I would get there. Beyond the pain, I pray that I would
see that God gives us these relationships and I hope I can be thankful
to Him for them, no matter how sad the outcome.

You brought my kids into the conversation…..that was a low blow. My
heart is breaking for them right now. I wanted so badly to give them
a life with a family intact. Rest assured that as I walk through my
own grief, I am calling on the same name as you are for strength and
guidance. I don’t know where your anger is coming from but your
words made me feel sad and hurt at a time when I need a mother more
than ever before. So, I will leave the ball back in your court. When
you can reach out with compassion and unconditional love for me,
regardless of what I write or say….we can talk again.

I love you,

She has not responded. That was two weeks ago.

If you took the time to read all of that, I thank you.....and feel free to give any perspective. And yes, I recognize that asking for validation is yet another form of codependency. I cannot believe I am dealing with both of these things at the same time - yet it seems in some ways I have broken all of the controlling chains in my life at once.

[This message edited by awakenedbytruth at 1:18 AM, August 5th (Friday)]

“Courage is the power to let go of the familiar.” - Raymond Linquist
Me BS-39
Him WH-41
Married 18yrs 2 Kids 11-9
DDay#1-July 5, 2010 (LTA 2 Years with CoW in corporate office)
Separating - 8/11

Posts: 118 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: West but my heart belongs to the South
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Default  Posted: 5:31 AM, August 5th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Awakened - not sure what to say really but I feel the raw emotion that you are conveying & I empathise with you.I see much of my wife in your mother as she has a poor relationship emotionally with her.

Your blog is beautifully written & Im gratefull that you felt comfortable to share with us.
Im sorry that you are dealing with so much pain at the moment.

[This message edited by deeppurple at 5:32 AM, August 5th (Friday)]

Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
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Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 6:40 AM, August 5th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so sorry that you're mother did not respond with the support you need from her. I don't know her, so I don't know what might be stopping her, but I hope that she finds it within herself to step up. I don't see any need for a 2x4 or a 1x2 or even a twig. Hugs to you and your kiddos.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, August 5th (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I missed you all so much. I've been so busy, and by the time I'd read the posts, I wouldn't have time to respond, but you have all been in my thoughts and prayers.

Just reading the posts and reflecting on them for a while has been helpful to me. When someone vents, or "thinks aloud" they often put into words feelings I am having but were unable to express. I always want to respond because I want to help so badly.

Awakened: That is an amazing blog. There has been a lot of discussion on the board lately about co-dependence. I feel that many of us have been displaying co-dependent behaviors to some degree in our marriages. Some of us started this after dday, some during the marriage. There are quite a few, like myself that have been engaging in co-dependent behaviors with FOO, in my case, my mother.

It's part of a deeper problem, we were "trained" so to speak because of circumstances in our lives.

I, too, am finding that going to IC and trying to deal with the aftermath of my WH's actions has opened up old wounds that have been festering for years and old behaviors I have been engaging in with my mother. Looking inward and trying to heal ourselves with or without the WS's help, is hard work, but has benefits, too. I am finally being able to deal with my mother better. The patterns of her behavior were always there, but I couldn't see it, and once you can, you can recognize it more easily. Awakened, I'm sorry about your mother's response, and her lack of truly understanding. Death of any kind, including that of a marriage can be traumatizing, so it's hard to see it for what it is. My heart goes out to you and your children.

Allgood: You are in my thoughts and prayers at this time. This transitional phase will be very difficult. Anything new can be hard, even if it's for the best. There is a lot of readjustment for all involved. Don't be superwoman. Ask for help when you need it. It will take time to adjust, but you are doing so well.

Miracle: I am so sorry about everything you are going through. Pfm's actions is just business as usual from him. The only thing I can suggest is to stop having any expectations of him. He is going to do stupid no matter what. Try as best you can to let go and not let it get to you. You are still have a lot of anger, but it's hurting you, not him.


Nell: I love the way you write. You really have a way with words. Hang in there, take it one day at a time. The hardest thing is to let go and let be. I'm still struggling with that. I am learning more and more that I cannot control my feelings and emotions, although I can look at them to see if they are valid. I can only control my actions and what I do about my feelings and emotions and to not act upon feelings only. I cannot control what someone else does, or how they feel. I can show them how I feel by words or actions, and perhaps those words and actions might make them feel better, but I can't control it.
Yes, we can lead the horse to water, direct and suggest, but we cannot make the horse drink, we cannot force them to do it. We all have free will.

Strongish, I hope you are doing better. You sound like you are on a steadier course. Hopefully, no matter what you and your WH can come to terms with everything kindly and compassionately, whether or not you stay M or not. I think that should be your goal right now, and to work on you.

Ats: oh, Ats. Your wife's letter was heartfelt, and yet so sad. What is good about it, is that at least she is starting to identify the problems and is making some effort to change them. I believe she loves and cares about you to the best of her ability. Dip has given you good advice about the "push/pull' dynamic.
As many of us have suggested to you, now is the time to decide what is good for YOU. You have helped Mrs. Ats over and above the call of duty. She is working hard too. But there comes a time that you have to say, "Is this what I want?" Don't take it personally, it's very, very sad, but Mrs. Ats is not doing any of this on purpose to hurt you. For example, we have been finally doing some home repairs. WH is lazy and does nothing, but I stopped getting angry about it. He has ALWAYS been that way. A zebra doesn't change his stripes, unless he decides to.

Laura, thank you for all your kindness and heartfelt giving.

NJgal, you sound like you are in a much better place lately, and I'm so glad. Now you can focus on the future!

Nofun, please keep us updated. You are going through a lot with selling your business and having houseguests. Sometimes, we just know the A is a dealbreaker, yet we try anyway. If the WS doesn't do thier part, there is nothing we can do.

M3: You are sounding a little stronger, and God bless Baby Paddy. I applaud every milestone she's achieved and it's a great credit to you for all the work you have done.
I truly, truly understand that you love your WH. I also love Shirley Glass' books, and the quote you posted about whether a relationship is dead or not. In general, her advice is spot on, BUT a relationship may still be alive, but it may be TOXIC. This is something you may want to explore. I have come to that conclusion with my WH and I'm working on detaching and letting go.
Also, your description of your WH's negligence in taking care of little kids is alarming. Just like you wouldn't leave them with a babysitter who was not responsible, you cannot trust WH to watch the kids. He is not capable. My mother told me that when I was around 2, we went to a large crowded beach and my father took me down by the water. He came back to the blanket to get something and my mother asks where I was. He replied nonchalantly that I was by the water and I was ok. Of course, my mother ran down to get me and I was fine, but where was my father's head?? My father loved me, but it's like he had NO idea about what could possibly happen!! Telling your WH what he should do is not going to work. As you said, you have to be in control and watch the kids and not leave it to him for a second. You wouldn't leave an 7 year old child in charge of toddlers!!

Dip, You make me smile and laugh. You have such compassion, thank you.

Tryn: Love your charts and graphs. You always have such great advice. I loved the letter you wrote to your wife. It is beautiful. Thank you for sharing it. You are showing by example a good way to deal with conflict in a marriage. You saw that she was mad, reflected why and then communicated without putting her on the defense.
I hate the silent treatment. It is very hurtful. WH and I discussed that once (he is the king of the silent treatments) and he said he does that because he is so angry that he doesn't want to say anything he'll regret. I told him that he should say that and tell me he needs time to calm down. (of course, this hasn't been followed through, but I think it can)
So perhaps, Tryn, when you and Mrs. Tryn are ok, you can discuss this. If she needs to back off and not talk when she is angry, she needs to tell you that. But there should be a time limit, and it shouldn't go on for days!!

Hello to all the newbies and welcome.

As for me, I've been working on detachment as much as possible. We have been very busy with home repairs that are much overdue. Of course, I'm coming to realize that there is an ulterior motive to any good gesture NPD WH does, or perhaps it's guilt because he is going to move OW into my house overeas? Who knows? I stopped myself from looking at his phone, telling myself that in reality he is my ex H, and as they often say in S/D forum: NC = no new hurts.

I cannot control WH or his emotions/feelings. I cannot make him love me the way I want him to. He wants to cake eat, that's all. The world revolves around his belly button. As for his behavior with DS overseas, DS 16 said, "Either Dad is really cool, or is a complete asshole" (regarding letting him do things)

I opt for the latter.

Hopefully, Wh will be leaving on Tues. He said business needed his attention but wanted to stay for DS 12 going on 13 birthday. Yeah, WH feels guilty about only spending 2 weeks here with him and wants US to go overseas so he doesn't have to travel so much. It is all about him still and will always be, but he will never ever see that.

Crazy things they say? I told WH to spend some time with DS 12 because he loves him, response; " Of course he does, I'm his father. I'm a good father and husband."


I keep remembering Nell's comment: "How many suns are on his planet besides himself?"

Love to all.

ETA: Great news about the job, deep!!

[This message edited by honesttoafault at 8:53 AM, August 5th (Friday)]

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