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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 26
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell

Lay it all out for him honey. I know you have done it before but some WSs are just stupid (ask miracle !) and need to be told again and again and even again.

My fwh still doesn't get it - he's getting better but still needs reminders. I have to remind him at least once a month. I have a meltdown and he he gets it right again for a while and then he forgets!!!!!!! Dumbass!!!!

I believe in giving R all we can. JMHO. If you need to put signs on the wall then do it! But (not meaning a 2X4), try to encourage him when he does right. I know it's hard but it is all part of the training. I do think you FWH is trying in his own fumbling way but he needs help. They have been stuck in their WS mindest for so long that it is difficult for them to change. They need reminding when they get it wrong but encouragement when they get it right.

JMHO

HUGS

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura28

You are working so hard to R I hope and pray you get there in the end and your H is able to respond in the right way. Do one thing for me though - if he ever lays a hand on your again in anger, then please remove him from your life. I'm sure he was mortified but....you don't need that.

Cyber Hug from me.
Love Ellejay xxx


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Laura.. I had to laugh at the word "training"

Because in a way, it is!

I told my wife she wants to text other men, that's OK. I will not be in a relationship where my woman needs a man BFF. FOr years and years she had me fooled on that.

It was funny, (training) one time she was texting her new boss about the Colts game. I told her in front of her friend.. Go right ahead and start that shit again. Walked away. HEr friend came and found me told me to stop being a baby. Call me what you wish, it doesn't matter. I won't have it. It's my #1 boundary. No calls, texts, emails, drinks, lunches... and I'm protecting that boundary. Never again right in front of my face. It's going to have to go deep underground to get by me again.

Oh well... I hope all the electricity is back on to Our NY tribe.

[This message edited by trynhard at 5:00 PM, August 31st (Wednesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the support, guys... but I really don't know if it's worth one more try and then waiting around AGAIN for x amount of time to see if he's going to step the fuck up. At some point, I have to stop banging my head against the wall. I just don't know if the vague possibility of a good relationship (if this and if that and if if if) with this man is worth another day of my life. A year ago, I was all in. Now? Not so much. I haven't been in at all since at least May, when he didn't bother to read the Linda McDonald book. It was "too negative" and he wants to focus on the positives. My healing is not worth him feeling a little uncomfortable. *I* am not worth him feeling a little uncomfortable. If I want to go heal myself, well, he'll watch the Boyos while I deal with my pain. No skin off his nose. But ask him to do anything? Ah hell no. EVERYTHING I have asked of him, he's either half-assed it for a couple days before dropping it or flat-out refused. And that's with my over-the-top cheerleading crap. And I'm not talking about talking about uncomfortable subjects. I'm talking about taking a few minutes at the end of the day to share three things we're each grateful for. Throwing me a compliment every day (not just when it's date night and he's hoping to get some). I'm just so fucking done. Sorry guys.

Of course, as I say every time I post this kind of thing, I may change my mind.

But I haven't yet.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell

Your H sounds like he just wants to short circuit the healing process for you. Your need to go through some of these steps each day to get to a better place is just too much of a reminder to him of how much he has f--ked with your head. The danger for him is that it will get to the point where you just don't care anymore but you haven't reached that stage yet because you are still trying. You will know if and when that day comes. You will just suddenly be able to look right through him as if he is a ghost. Also, you WILL change your mind again and again about your future with this man and that's OK too. It just has to play out until it's either fixed to your satisfaction or you realise that are too many broken pieces for it ever to look whole again.

Hell, I hate what all this puts people through.

Thinking of you as you try and try again to fix this.

Ellejay


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when the ws gets angry:

well there are several reasons this takes place...

the most prevalent one is simply because they are angry they got caught....period..

so now the anger will phase in and it will be used to villify you the bs.....when they are angry with us they can justify their behavior, it also deflects from taking responsibility for their actions and choices...

and imo a ws who takes this road, needs to be kicked to the curb....how dare the ws get angry...seriously....the ws being angry to me is the icing on the cake....which means its time to blow

nell: i think you have already spelled it out for him so many times, no need to apologize.....he either shows you real quick that he's a changed man or he doesn't....3 weeks is not very long, and in that 3 weeks he still didn't do enough did he???

laura: i cant believe he hit you...i think i would have stabbed my ws if he ever laid a hand on me after finding out about all his shit.....and i think i would have handed him his heart...


welcome back to the oldies and welcome to the newbies.....

this is honestly my favorite forum on si, the peeps here in the lta world totally rock....we are a group of people who "get" each other, we try not to judge one another but give as much support as we can, and we all seem to possess a sense of humor which sometimes gets us through the rest of it.....


((((tribe))))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just had a lenthy phone call with my idiot STBXH telling me how the last few months have been the worst of his life and how taking up with OW2 has been the thing that has stopped him from "topping" himself. He ranted about how the BS of OW1 was out to get him (really??) and how he has gone to the darkest place over the past year and how everything has been twisted just to make life miserable for him.... yadda yadda yadda. I asked him if he had appreciation of the kind of year I have had so far? Dead silence. Then he said that he had also behaved so well in his dealings with me, not causing grief in front of the children, doing the right thing financially etc. I said "well what do you want - a medal? This is the least you can do." MY GOD!!

It was good though because as I was listening to all this, I had a lightbulb moment. He is NEVER going to get it. He is NEVER going to see things on the same emotional level as a normal person. It is that simple. The shift I felt in my mental state at that moment was quite significant. It was as if someone had literally bashed me over the head with a frying pan. I need to remove myself mentally from this man. It is no longer my job to counsell him on what he is doing wrong, how insensitive he is. I am basically DONE.

Until the next rant.........

Love to all

Ellejay xxx


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:37 PM, August 31st (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS hasn't changed, but I have. Too bad for him. Eat my dust, sucka. (I got my humor back.)

Ellejay,
I love those lightbulb moments! Sudden illumination, V8 headslap, doioioioing noise. Awesome. Good for you!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 3:23 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hola!

Nell, if I could go with you today and hold your hand I swear I would.

Ellejay -- I'm so glad you had that lightbulb moment. It will be a tremendous help to you.

M3 land: lost a bit of power and Internet, and some trees were down in the neighborhood but that's about it.

I wrote a lot and then realized it was all boring stuff about my kids, as usual. Whoops! I'm having a great time holding down the fort while WH is away and working when he's home. Let's stick to that.

I'm glad folks weathered the storm OK.

Tryn, depression is hard. She probably won't make a good decision of any kind as long as she's depressed. At least, that's been my experience.

Detachment. That's the key. Now, does it build your marriage? Not really. But it's still the best tool while recovering from your spouse's LTA. I've found that the less I care about what my WH does or how his life is going to turn out, the more good he does. Very paradoxical, but commonly recognized phenomenon. Trick is: you have to REALLY not care; not fake that you don't care.

I have no idea what any of this means, but I do know that a few days after nanny quit WH sent me flowers in the middle of the day just because. The last time he sent me flowers was when I broke my arm on one of our dates in 2000. So, there you go.

Also, stating your truth non-defensively, unemotionally and not aggressively. I've heard it called "charging neutral." Recent example from M3's life: WH says if I could work and take care of the kids without any outside help we'd have an extra $Xthousand a month. And I just said, "No. I'd have an extra $Xthousand a month, and I'll have earned every penny of it." (I always paid nanny or daycare out of my paycheck. If the $ had to come out of my pay, it can damn well go back into my pocket now.) And you know what? He agreed. He was even a bit chagrined and he said "You're right."

I think Tryn gave a fine example of this in his letter to his FWW.

Point? Not sure there is one. Might help Nell at MC today?

I'll pop back whenever I can tribe. These smallish M3's keep me hopping. I usually fall asleep at night without even making it into my jammies first. Gotta work on that.

ETA a big hug for ATS. I'm mad about this wedding. Sigh. How can she not see how totally inappropriate that is (nevermind, dumb question...)

[This message edited by m334455 at 3:26 AM, September 1st (Thursday)]


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 5:20 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all

Tryn

Hey Laura.. I had to laugh at the word "training"

Hi honey. I'm glad I made you laugh. You have given me so much - laughs and great advice- it's nice to be able to give back.

After I posted I thought a lot about this. I don't mean to make it sound like manipulation. It's not. It is really ensuring that our FWSs are quite clear about what we require. And I agree with you 100%. We have to stick to our boundaries. BUT - They need to KNOW what these are. We HAVE to make it clear to them. It is only fair. If they know what our boundaries are and what the dealbreakers are then if they choose to ignore them then they choose D - It's that simple. (You have said this before but in my befuddled brain I just didn't hear you - PISD???? )

Similarly, I think we need to make OUR needs clear. My silly FWH is trying so hard. The only need I have which he is not meeting is my "need to know". He responds with "I don't know" or "I don't remember". I find this hard. Sometimes I think he is telling the truth. Other times I think he is protecting him, me, the M and/or R. Trouble is I don't know which is which I suppose I should accept that at least he has good intentions!

The other thing I think we need to remember is that our FWSs are dumbasses. If they weren't then they wouldn't have had As. So we need to be crystal clear in our requirements. They are not good at working them out themselves

Ellejay and miracle

The blow was a reflex. I know it was wrong. He knows it was wrong. It was a response to my threats to his whore of 16yrs. (he fucked her 16 yrs ago - then the PA became an EA when she married and lasted until dday). I actually had no trouble forgiving him. It wasn't planned or deliberate - unlike his As!!! and he was really sorry - genuinely sorry. So... water under the bridge.

M33

Great to hear from you honey. never hesitate to chat about your kids. We love our kids!!!! - all the LTA kids that is. And as for your FWH - I feel warm and fuzzy towards him at present. The flowers and the He was even a bit chagrined and he said "You're right." did that to me.

As for detachment:

When I told fwh about my plan to move to France if we D I think he finally realised that I knew I would be OK without him. The ball was then in his court. He had to show me that he was worth staying with.

So far he has

Love to all

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 6:01 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

G'morning Tribe,

Laura,


The only need I have which he is not meeting is my "need to know". He responds with "I don't know" or "I don't remember". I find this hard. Sometimes I think he is telling the truth. Other times I think he is protecting him, me, the M and/or R. Trouble is I don't know which is which

This is one that I still struggle with sometimes. I believe that for FWW the reason is deep shame. Our MC indicated that he believes FWW has told me what she is able to tell me, when she is able. As m334455 mentioned, when I am detached it no longer bothers me. It is only when I feel some hope and connection that the remaining unspoken secrets gnaw at me. I believe there are at least two biggies she is suppressing.

From what I heard, the wedding and events leading to it were mostly a joke. The bride's dysfunctions were on display for all to see, there was no way to ignore them. No body had a good time.

FWW's younger DD and I spent a lot of time talking Sunday night, and all day Monday while FWW was in surgery. I am glad we had the time, I wondered how I would feel about her being here. We patched up the damaged and fraying parts of our relationship. There were a couple of long hugs. She came to me, not her Father, sister, or FWW for advice on her relationship with her longtime BF.

I am back to work for a few hours today after caring for FWW the last 3 days. Our financial picture is looking better. We did nit qualify for any if the gov't mortgage adjustment, but our bank is offering to lower our interest rate and extend the mortgage. Thus reduces the monthly payment by 25%. I can afford to live in the house now on just my salary. FWW had some promising job interviews, I am unsure if any of them will provide medical benefits for her.

FWW has been making a point the last 2 weeks, even through her recovery to be attentive to me. I am at the point that I view this with cynicism, a result if needing to ensure I am here to care fir her. Any thoughts about our R are on hold until she has recovered from surgery, then I will watch. As I told her, I do not hate her, I feel no rush to D, I just feel less and less connection.

I think I will know what our future holds by the end of the year. In one month it will have been 2 years since dday. Hard to believe that time is coming. I remember when it seemed so far away, an impossible time to stay together.

--Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:28 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ats.. smart move on the house. I had a friend that did the same.

Nell, I won't be around today but wish you strenght and courage in your MC. It's today right?


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
Shell_Shocked
♀ Member
Member # 33119
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ellejay, I am so thankful I found this site, has helped so much already. Just lurking and reading helps to know you are not alone.

Laura, I can not imagine him hitting me because of what HE did but I know my H deals with anger with most confrontations, he has never been good at emotions esp when it is his fault.

I feel like I am living in The Twilight Zone, he comes home from work last night and acts like we are all good. Acts like he is ready to kiss my a@@ if I so want.

Well, I just didn't say much, still too exhausted from the previous night. I have an appointment with an attorney today going to see what MY options are.

He's going to have to understand the work it's going to take & agree to my terms this time or I'm done. I can not live like this!

Also Laura you sound like an amazing & strong woman.

I am glad to meet everyone on here. Just wish it was under better circumstances.


BS 53
WH 53
M 31 yrs together 39 yrs
DDay1 04/26/2011 LTA
DDay2 06/12/2011
OW - Co-worker whore
3 Adult Children
5 Grand Children
06/25/2011 False R
Preparing for D, hoping for real R

Posts: 67 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: Midwest
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shell_Shocked,
I feel like I am living in The Twilight Zone, he comes home from work last night and acts like we are all good.

My WH does the same. He doesn't know/doesn't want to deal with anything "negative" so he throws flowers at it.

Laura,
I admire you and all your hard work. I'm glad for all the ways your FWH has stepped up and changed. I just don't think that I can continue to do R. The feelings that you have for your FWH aren't in me, and I don't see the M being worth the struggle. It is what it is, what it has always been... and all I can see is a long road of more of the same forever. I can't continue to live like this. It's killing me.

m3 and tryn, thanks. Damn. Today is going to suck.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Ellejay
♀ Member
Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 6:34 PM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura

Hopefully it won't come to it but if you DO end up in France, can I come and visit?

You could do a Mary Moody and buy a little place with big shutters on the windows and just drink wine with the locals whilst immersing yourself in all things French. Have you read any of her books? Just makes you want to take off and fling caution to the wind.

Ellejay xxx


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
iwantamiracle
♀ Member
Member # 22812
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((nell))) i hope it went better then you expected..


shell: we are definitely taking that trip through the twilight zone, outer limits and most certainly mars.....

for us in the lta world...its so damned overwhelming....i remember way back when i was a newbie, pfm trickle truthed me to the point that everyday held a new revelation...of course the new revelations came because i got really good at grilling...and it wasnt on a bbq....

ats: i agree with tryn...very smart on the house...

i am happy that you worked out some shit with fww's dd...


elle: i too love those lightbulb moments....now if i could only find the off switch....i need a rest, my bulb seems to be burnt out....


m3: glad to hear that your irene stuff is or was minor....never quite sure what to make of your posts though....he does seem to seesaw quite frequently, and i cant seem to get his descents quite off my mind...

i had a very good, very theraputec cathartic day today with some of our lta tribe.....we are such an awesome group..

(((tribe)))


i am taking my life back, one step at a time!!!!!

Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: looking for my rainbow
m334455
♀ Member
Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 10:55 PM, September 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell,

How did it go?

Ah... throwing caution to the wind and taking off. Even I've considered it some. But my kids, I would miss them dearly.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Shell_Shocked
♀ Member
Member # 33119
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, September 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell,
How are things? Sounds like our H's have somethings in common, mine would love to avoid any conflict or negative things all together. But this can NOT be avoided!

iwant, Getting tired of these "worlds', would like to get onto a normal again, but thinking that's going to be along while.

I did manage to talk to him a little bit, he tried that they are now only just friends! I told him regardless of what "they were", that it was totally inapproiate, that anything you have to hide and sneak around doing that should tell you that it is wrong. Don't get me wrong I do not believe that are now only friends!!

I managed to stay emotionless, told him he better get his priorities straight before he kills what's left of us and the decision will be made for him.

I didn't come right out and tell him that I had seen a lawyer but I did tell him how much an uncontested divorce would cost.

Also told him I deserve better than this and I wasn't going to live like this. Also informed him that NO ONE followed him, that is what he was so angry about, told him it's just they aren't as clever as they thought. That I wouldn't stoop as low to have someone follow him, I would do it myself if I wanted any more proof. He was angry at youngest DD since she has a friend who is PI, thought she had him doing it. I am amazed daily on the selfish childish behavior!

So guess I will see what the Twilight Zone holds in store for me tonight.


BS 53
WH 53
M 31 yrs together 39 yrs
DDay1 04/26/2011 LTA
DDay2 06/12/2011
OW - Co-worker whore
3 Adult Children
5 Grand Children
06/25/2011 False R
Preparing for D, hoping for real R

Posts: 67 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: Midwest
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Target  Posted: 7:42 AM, September 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

{{{tribe}}}

IWaM - how does one get to spend time with our tribe outside of SI? I am envious.

If I didn't have time with my GS I don't know how I'd cope. He is my 'escape' from thinking about the A most of my waking moments. lately my dreams are stranger and stranger... not quite nightmares as in the past, but very weird and unsettling when I awake. I read SI and have nothing valid to contribute beyond hopes and prayers for better times for all LTA tribe... so much suffering. Laura mentioned 'training' in regards to Nell {{{Nell}}} but I am wondering about the emotional battle raging in me as 5 yrs since Dday approaches.

I believe in giving R all we can. JMHO. If you need to put signs on the wall then do it! But (not meaning a 2X4), try to encourage him when he does right. I know it's hard but it is all part of the training. I do think you FWH is trying in his own fumbling way but he needs help. They have been stuck in their WS mindest for so long that it is difficult for them to change. They need reminding when they get it wrong but encouragement when they get it right.

Yesterday and this morning I am feeling so disconnected from my H. Tryn's recent posts are giving me deja vu thoughts of BTDT and no Tshirt to show for it. I am doubting what is to be gained in this ongoing 'healing process' when feeling so low on the inside and trying to project a happy face on the outside. Increased pain is aggravating my chronic health situation and I hope I can function today with my beloved GS. He'll be here in an hour. Can't wait to here his voice calling me "Gramma".

I'm thinking more and more of the 'masks' we wear in our lives. I am so tired of the mask I've worn since Dday.
Try'n - do you have an excerpt from Retrovaille on this subject? I'm looking for my Marriage Encounter notebook but seem to have tucked it so out of sight the location is also out of mind. Although this is common for me (health situation) I am finding it more frustrating than ever to cope with as energy level spirals downward from disturbed sleep.
Think I try to get a few more winks in... it's going to be a long weekend (calendar and situation-wise)...


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
Laura28
♀ Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 8:10 AM, September 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Lostsuol and Shell

It's after 11 pm here and I am off to bed.

Just popped into Si to see who was around

Just sending HUGS.

LS: Have fun with your GS.

Laura


Married 30yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 59yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA til dday).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
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