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User Topic: N P D Thread part 9
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have actually been trying to figure out the "why me" thing. Can't find anything in the literature, so am just using a bullshit detector on my own half-assed theories. But here's what I think. (Please note: I'm extremely gullible and will believe anything I think.)

My parents were good, solid people. Loving but stand-off-ish. To the point that the high-school-aged me truly believed that my dad didn't love me. He did, of course, but he didn't show it.
SOOO... when Mr. STBXNell came along and threw "I love you, move in with me, marry me" at me far too quickly, I melted all over the floor like a popsicle in the sun.

I was also raised in a home where voices were never raised and problems were solved through discussion (my dad was a trained mediator), so I attempted to deal with normal problems with Mr. STBXNell (how to load the dishwasher... stuff like that) in the same way. But it never worked. Because his way of dealing with problems was to make me wrong so he could be right. I just didn't have the tools to deal with blameshifting and defensiveness and gaslighting and fighting to the death over every little thing. Eventually I would give in or revert back to my old childhood habit of neither agreeing nor disagreeing but instead doing whatever I wanted until such time as I was confronted. (Passive-aggressive.) Both of those things worked, while cooperating, communicating and compromising resulted in me "losing" and Mr. STBXNell "winning." Guess what I did for the next 15 years?

I was raised to be independent, self-directed, responsible and to have humility. I think those are good things, but I took them waaaaaay too far. They allowed me to accept never having Mr. STBXNell's support, to take on all the duties of raising children and owning homes, to rarely even *think* that I deserved to be valued for me and not just for the services I provided to him.

I'm learning, slowly... but my fear of falling into this trap again is pretty darn overwhelming.


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
always-hope
♀ Member
Member # 27814
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I also don't think I had NPD parents, but I am convinced now that my Mom left my Dad for another man, 6 months after I was M. This was a man she was engaged to as a teen & they lived together after my parents D without M until his death last year, but that is a whole other mind boggling situation.

The only thing I can think of is that he was very charming in the beginning. I was rather naive as he was my first serious boyfriend. He got me hooked and since I am so loyal, once we were married, I didn't even think of leaving. I just made excuses for his behavior.

Same for me, he swept me off my feet. The thing is that I was happy with my life at the time, had a vision of where I was going & what I wanted & how I was going to get there.

Then, bam! Met him, quit college because WH was afraid that I would meet someone smarter & leave him. He asked me to marry him 3 months after we met. I took 6 months to answer him with a yes. That should have been a red flag to me. Then 1 1/2 years til the wedding.

The night before WH's bachelor party I remember sitting in my car with him & I told him 'Don't ever cheat on me' out of the blue. WH's response: 'What would you do if I did?' NOT: 'I love you & I would never do that'. That alone should have sent me screaming in the other direction, so many little things that should have been red flags & are now in retrospect.

I now believe with all of my being that WH had already cheated at that point, was cheating at that point, planned to continue cheating as long as he felt he could get away with it.

We moved away from family, following WH's job & I did part-time jobs to stay with the kids during the day. This is what WH & I agreed on, no daycare for the kids. Also gave WH control of most of the money.


God, I need help. I feel so stuck, trapped.


Anyway, someone smack me.

I engaged this morning. I have been so good at 180, then WH said to me: " I know your going to see this as another excuse but I had sex with OW because I was afraid of being alone. I let OW in on my fear & she swooped in & took advantage of it"


So I asked "Then you were planning on going to live with her so you wouldn't be alone?" (She lives across country & WH had signed a 1 yr. lease on apartment here so moving with her was not really a possibility at that time.)

He got mad & said no, see AH you don't listen to me. You asked me to dig deeper & that is what I came up with. If my answer doesn't fit perfectly into your scheme, you will turn it around to something that does. (???)

I said yes, I understand the fear of being alone, I had it when you left & still have it now. I just don't see how having sex with OW was going to stop you from being alone or stop the fear of being alone.

WH walked out saying 'You are giving me the silent treatment when I am trying to give you what you want. You always assume' ?????? Then slammed the door.

Next time I will just say 'Thank you for telling me that' and walk out of the room. Or maybe 'OK' would be a better response?

Still waiting for my NPD books to come in the mail.


BW me- 51
WH 50
3 DS
M 27 yrs
STD/PA? in 91 Many EA's, LT(10 yr)EA/PA
DDays: many -started 2005
TT never stopped, don't think I will ever have the full truth
SOW- WH's former HS 'friend/whore'
Limbo

Posts: 307 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: The Heartland
soverybetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 32948
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My mother groomed me to be a caretaker. All the women in my family have a heriditary heart condition. My mother wouldn't let me go places with friends because "she might have an attack" granted she did have it bad but she used it against me doing anything. No sleepovers, no friends over, no going to friends houses. She was emotionally, verbally and physically abusive. At 9 she said I was too old to be told she loved me and I didn't hear it again until I was 47. At 16 she told me I was her investment and it was damn time I paid off, she forced me to work 2 jobs and go to school. I was always angry at her because she was so abusive but I know now that I was always walking on eggshells to not poke the bear. The beatings were severe and with many different objects.

I grew up to look for men who "needed" me. I learned that by reading "women who love too much". I stopped looking for someone who needed me and actually stopped looking at all.

When I met stbx one thing that drew me in was that he didn't "need" me. I didn't want to get married but he pushed and pushed until I said yes. He played "Mr Charming" and did amazing things for me that made me fall for him. He kept up his facade for 2 years. I began to make excuses for his behavior, he had no boundaries but I had no idea how to fix that. I gave him too much freedom and he acted like a single man. I am still trying to figure out why I stayed 5 more years after I became so unhappy and lonely.

I am learning that he saw qualities in me that he wanted and that he doesn't possess. Once I became ill and disabled then what he saw was himself since he is disabled and I no longer fit his "image" of the perfect wife. I wasn't allowed to be sick.

I am thankful that I got out of the marriage alive.


Me-53
DDay 10/16/2010 DDay2 5/22/2011
Divorced 8/23/2012
I will get stronger and better but no matter where he goes, there he is....

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Being an AWESOME ME!
toughgirl8
♀ Member
Member # 29812
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((always hope))) I find the least emotional response with the least amount of words works best.

(((svb))) I'm so sorry. That's awful. I hope you are just beginning on your road to peace. You certainly deserve some.


Me-37
WH-41
M-12 yrs
D Day-3/2010
4 kiddoes
Some may say I have a short temper, I say I have a swift and assertive reaction to bull sh't. ;)

Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2010
soverybetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 32948
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you toughgirl18. I am over what my mother did but I think that she may very well have been NPD cause it was all about her all the time. She actually told me that she never wanted kids but she had 5 of us. She was so broken by her own childhood she didn't know how to break the cycle.

I was just driving home from the doctor and realized that I don't need to beat myself up about the fact that I stayed with stbx because I know that I did it because I loved him and wanted to make my marriage work. Now I have a long journey ahead of me to learn how to get myself back. I gave up so much in my marriage that I have no idea who I am other than a soon to be divorced betrayed wife who wasn't good enough to keep once I got ill.

That is the part that rips at my heart and soul. How do you dump your spouse when they are diagnosed with autoimmune diseases and skin cancer? I know that I am not NPD because I married my husband with his disabilities because I never focused on them. He was the first man that I really truly loved with my whole heart and soul. I could never imagine cheating on him or leaving him if he were to become ill. I cried with him when he got a migraine one time. He actually told me that if that is what a migraine feels like then he is amazed that I was still around. I thought he really understood how bad a migraine can be but I was wrong cause he later changed his opinion.

I know that I am so much better off without him but it hurts so much more that he treated me like crap while ill. The first 2 affairs are nothing comepared to deserting me to face all of this alone. I don't know if that makes sense. The affairs hurt and devastated me but being deserted for being sick? I can never forgive him for doing that to me.


Me-53
DDay 10/16/2010 DDay2 5/22/2011
Divorced 8/23/2012
I will get stronger and better but no matter where he goes, there he is....

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Being an AWESOME ME!
toughgirl8
♀ Member
Member # 29812
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

svb- totally understandable. The A is the symptom of the problem just like abandonning you for being ill.

I was left alone all the time when I was so depressed I was suicidal. He couldn't deal with it. And thought it was justified to get away from me.

I realize that all now... how alone I always felt, how I was never his priority, getting cursed at at 3am when my 4 week old woke him for a feeding, and the A... all symptoms of the real issue.

(((svb))) you're on the right road, best of luck.


Me-37
WH-41
M-12 yrs
D Day-3/2010
4 kiddoes
Some may say I have a short temper, I say I have a swift and assertive reaction to bull sh't. ;)

Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2010
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been away for a while and got into some kind of depression over the fact that my STBXWH introduced the AP´s name to my kids. My son (going to be six in 2 weeks is defending his dad for his actions (being idealized by him all the time) not understanding that an extramarital affair is not just having other people as friends and attacking me for not going along with it. Although I stay calm and understanding on the outside I feel I get aggressive and hostile inside. My daughter on the other hand sees through the presents given to her and my son by the other woman and is devalued by my husband for not giving him the adulation and admiration he so desperately needs.

I understand that Frank is right, that the affair is not important , the NPD is, but it is really tough to see how one child gets the nastiness and the other the admiration and on top of it a woman who ruined the marriage (although I think that she will have a nasty wake-up one day ) srewing with my children. Am I normal? How can I counterbalance his behaviour? How should I treat to my son?
PLEASE help!


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 53 | Registered: Nov 2011
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, January 24th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Free2012

Not sure of your situations...but....You are still in the divorce process. Explain to your attorney what he is doing....document and record everything. Get a VAR for you and your daughter to keep with you at all times. When he is in yours or her presence.....hit the record button in your pocket. Let the attorney handle it from there.

See if you can get morality clause into the divorce.....

He will take it as a personal attack on him and get pissed and amp up his NPD game.....but you have to protect those children. That emotional abuse at a young age is exactly where the NPD stems from.....It is not genetic but often apparent in succeeding generations due to NPD abuse of the children....Being told they are out of line, not good enough, an embarassment or their emotions are not in line with NPD parent figure and chastized for it.....they shut down their emotions and emotional development stops.....Don't let him endanger your daughter's mental health.....Talk to your attorney....asap.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 3:47 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Frank,
I talked to my attorney: morality clause doesn't count in my country and mutual custody can't be denied as long as he doesn' t hit the children. The schoolcounselor is informed and is preparing the teachers so my son gets his boundaries and my daughter her self esteem........ They are observant..... I feel so helpless, yet so far the children seem to be ok after three days without their dad. Right now they see him every second weekend and half of the holidays.
The VAR is a good idea, tried it with my daughter, but he found it and took it away for good . What to do?


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 53 | Registered: Nov 2011
oldtimer97
♀ Member
Member # 2365
Default  Posted: 6:53 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The VAR is a good idea, tried it with my daughter, but he found it and took it away for good . What to do?

Look around for a VAR in a different type, like a pen for instance. Brickhousesecurity is good for getting ideas, but make sure you look for cheaper prices, Ebay even. This Christmas, I was surprised to see such pen recorders as toys online at JCPenneys for "spy" play...yeah, adult spies, hehe. Other idea might be to find a place where it can be secreted away in the bottom of a purse, coat, backpack, etc., by undoing a seam and slipping it in. Good luck.


FWIW, because of brain damage, I write in storyteller form, so hardly any short posts from me & bad eyesight gives me a 50% edit rate..Apologies in advance!

Posts: 3168 | Registered: Oct 2003 | From: Sunny Arizona
thenon-goddess
♀ Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the replies. I've not had a chance to read through much of this thread yet, but was going backwards and reading some of the stories and I'm honestly confused whether my husband is NPD or not (which is why I was asking about diagnosing). Maybe if I describe...

(sorry this is so long and disjointed, I've been writing and adding in the last couple of days)...

One of the stories I read here (sorry, forgetting poster) was about her getting stuck in the rain and calling her husband, him coming and yelling at her "what the fuck do you expect me to do" or something like that. That is not my husband at all. In fact, when he is called on, I think he kind of likes it. There was a similar situation with us once, it happened after a fight, and he came willingly and with almost a smug look on his face that I had to call him for help. I think he likes it when others need him and generally he'll come back with some sort of story how he was the one to figure out what the problem was and whoever was there before that was stupid, etc.

Another thing that makes me wonder is that I am included in his circle of smart people. He actually told me one of the things that attracted him to me was my intelligence. Does that sound right for an NPD? As an example, there is a friend of mine who he thinks is stupid (he thinks lots of people are stupid!) and he talks about her behind her back (to me) all the time. Saying he doesn't know why I'm friends with her, she'll sap my intelligence, things like that. This friend and I were playing Words with Friends and she beat me. I told my husband and he was like "WHAT! Were you drunk!" So it's kind of like I'm allowed to be one of the smart ones in his world.

He also started a new job recently and surprised the hell out of me by saying he thinks that his boss is actually smart...he likes his boss. This is truly a first! BUT, he told me a story last night about how their company has a motto "No one is smarter then all of us together." Someone printed that off an put it up in his office and wrote "except for Mr. Thenon-god." He thought they did it as a joke. I think they did it because he acts like a know it all all of the time and it was a dig at him.

Although he allows me to be in his "intelligence circle" he HATES it when I am right over him. It can cause fights and anger. And he hates to be told he is wrong (and he admits that).

Manipulation: My husband has a terrible temper. Several years ago he was in an accident with a motorist (it was the other guys fault, it is ALWAYS someone else's fault) and it resulted in a physical altercation and he was court ordered to take an anger management class. I remember me being glad about that, hoping it would help. He came home one day and I asked him how the class went and he told me great that, paraphrasing here, he knew how to answer her questions the way he needed so that he could move through the class and be done with it. He got NOTHING from the class.

He also loves to come across as devoted family man, perfect dad and husband to his bosses or co-workers. I remember dday #2, when I found he had forwarded OW's resume to his new boss. I had finally had enough and outed the A to his boss. My husband was so upset that I had told his boss. Did not care one iota about my pain and what I'd found out, but only cared that his boss now knew.

Other things that make me wonder, he is generous with money. Not with feelings or emotions, but if there is something I want, he wants me to have it. Sadly, that's whether we can afford it or not. He'll make promises he can't keep. I remember when we were newly married and had our first baby. I found an SUV I really liked. We were at the dealership looking and I mentioned I liked it but we needed to find something cheaper. He says no, lets have them run the numbers on it. When the numbers came back I told him there is no way we can afford it. He says yes we can, we'll figure it out. We signed on it and less then a year later we had it voluntarily repossessed. The bank tried several times to get their money (as they should) and he was all "they can go screw themselves. Banks screw people over. The interests rates are so high and if that vehicle was only worth "X" at auction, how can they charge us double for it, that should be a crime" blah, blah, blah. Again, not his fault that he took the note for it knowing we couldn't afford it, but the banks fault.

Later, as we got in a financially comfortable situation (he had gone back to school and gotten a great job (which went to his head I think)), I remember us going to upgrade my engagement ring. We went in and they salesperson starts showing me some rings and my husband says something along the lines of "no, show her the expensive stuff" I ended up picking out a hearts on fire ring, which was quite expensive, and the jeweler asks us if we want to apply for their store credit. My husband tells them no, we have the amount in our bank account and then goes on to tell them about his new job and how he makes "X" amount of money each week. It was kind of embarrassing, but I don't think he saw the inappropriateness of it.

Also, he is lazy...or uninvolved? around the house. He takes almost no initiative with the kids. Never gives baths, has changed only a handful of diapers over the years, does not clean or do much of anything. One day I managed to get a nap and when I woke up and came out, the house was picked up. Before I could even get a word out of my mouth he was asking me if I noticed that he had gotten the house cleaned all up. I later find out that the kids cleaned up the house. His "got it cleaned up" was that he motivated THEM to do it.

He told me once that I don't cultivate his wanting to do stuff and being nice. I asked him for an example. He comes out with "say, for instance" I'm walking out to the kitchen and I notice a dirty glass on the table and pick it up and put it in the sink, you don't notice and thank me for it." SERIOUSLY! Am I just being a bitch by thinking that is not a big deal? In his mind he works outside of the home so that should be it. He literally does nothing around here. This weekend he calls up and invites his brother and wife over to play cards. They haven't eaten yet so they're going to cook and eat here. I protest afterwards saying how we've been gone all day and our kitchen looks like a bomb has gone off, we haven't even cleaned up our supper yet, there is no where for them to cook. Husband says it's not a big deal and proceeds to go play playstation while I frantically try to get the kitchen cleaned up for the company he invited over. They get here and he ignores them! He keeps playing his game. BIL's wife is helping me clean up the kitchen, BIL is playing with the kids (they can never get attention from dad) and then BIL actually vacuums for me, while H is still playing playstation!

Competitiveness: he has to win, always. He has to be the strongest (although he has admitted a couple of time to a couple people being stronger then him, but they have to be someone he likes). He has to win all games. A couple examples: his brother and wife came over over the weekend to play spades with us. They were winning and after several hands my husband would say "wait, you spaded my heart/club/diamond earlier and now have one to play" and my brother in law was like "no I didn't" and we'd have to go back through all of the books to see. Normally, if he was winning, it would be no big deal. But because he (we) were losing, he had to challenge everything.

Another example, over the weekend my son was using my ipad and played PacMan for the first time. He passed the level and thought it meant he had won the game so he says "dad, guess what, I just beat pacman!" and my husbands response "no you didn't. YOu just beat the first level. There is no beating that game, it goes on forever. I'll tell you what, once you've beat so many levels that you have spare pacmen lining the top of the screen and back across again, then you're getting good." Then he launches in to this story about how when he was younger people would come over to play pacman with him and they'd all go first because they knew once it was his turn, it would be hours before he'd die and they'd get to play again. My son is getting ready to turn 9, btw. He is telling a NINE year old how he is better at pacman then him.

He loves to tell stories about his basketball days and how he scored 80something points in one game and how he believes that if he had just been noticed by the right person, he could have been a professional player. He tells that story of that one high scoring games (and other games where HE won the game for the team) over and over again. In the IM's between he and the whore, he even mentions this one high scoring game (she did not give him the recognition I think he was looking for. He is living his high school glory days still and he is THIRTY-FIVE!). Anyway, yesterday my daughter comes home from school and tells me how they did basketball drills in school and she made 14 out of her 20 shots. I tell her I'm proud, that's really good, I bet that will make dad excited since he really loves basketball. Dad comes home, she tells him and she gets a fairly unenthusiastic "good job." Then my son says something and my husband goes in to how he could make 100 shots in a row with his eyes closed!!! His hand was on the counter and I had a plastic miracle whip jar in my hands and I kind of thumped his knuckles to get his attention and he's like "what the hell was that for?!" and I just whispered "don't minimize" (he knew what I meant, since I had just mentioned the pacman incident from the weekend to him (which he remembered COMPLETELY different)) and he's like "I'm not minimizing, I'm just telling them what I can do. I told "daughter" she did a good job. Man. That really pissed me off you know!" All said so the kids can hear it.

He cannot say sorry for anything (that would mean admitting he was wrong or screwed up), or, if he does say it, there's always a "but" involved. The most I ever got for the A was "I said I was sorry" which he never actually said the words "I'm sorry" and even if he had, that, imo, does not cover it.

Again, over the weekend (on Sunday, so after a long weekend of his crap (he broke my garbage can in a temper rage) I let him know that I was finally ready to separate, that I had sent for information from the community college to start classes and had been looking for jobs. He seems a bit shocked first, like he doesn't believe me and when I reiterate it, he gets all pissed off and goes out in the living room, where the kids are and yells to me "So, you wanna tell the kids now?!" and they're all like "tell us what" and I say to him, "don't do this, this is private between you and I until we figure this out" and he says "why not, they'll need to know you wanna leave" Eventually he shuts up, the kids are upstairs and he follows me in the kitchen and hugs me from behind "pressing himself into me" (if you catch my drift). This is his go to when he wants sex or is trying to "make up" with me for something. I tell him to stop and kind of half return the hug and say "I want you to know I was being serious earlier. I told you I would never tell you again that I wanted to leave, unless I was really sure, and I meant that. I think we should separate" and he goes walking away, "Oh, well, I guess I gave it a good run" (Huh, you screwed around on me for the last 10 months!) Then again later he tells me to "come here" and he hugs me and kisses my neck. Last night he tried to initiate sex. He is talking about future things like paying off the house and how we'll have extra spending money, etc. It's like he totally disregarded what I said and does not believe me.

And that's another thing, he HATES hearing "no." Whether it be about sex, or an answer to something he has asked me to do. It's not uncommon for him to say to me "hey woman, get me a drink." He'll say it in a joking tone, but the expectation that I do it is there. One time last week I came in with a drink in my hand and just sat down to watch t.v. and he says to me "how come you didn't ask me if I wanted a drink?" and I told him I just hadn't thought of it. So he tells me he would really like one and will I go get him one. By this point I have pretty well decided I want our M over and am done being a servant so I tell him "no." I think he thought I was joking because he asked me after, "so, you're really not going to go get me a drink?" and I told him "no." He wants to know why and I told him I don't feel like it. He says "well at least you didn't answer that I don't deserve it." He then gets up to get his own drink but he is stomping and slamming and making it clear that he is pissed to have to be getting his own drink. Then he starts in letting me know that the guys he works with tell him that their wives like to do things like get up and get their husbands drinks. I ask him if they guys at work screwed around on their wives. He was not impressed.

He leaves for work at 5:30 am and most days I get up at 5 to make him his lunch. Two days in a row I didn't because the baby had been up all night and I was exhausted, and on that second night, I decided to make his lunch at night so that when he woke up in the morning I could just throw it in his lunch pail and go back to bed (he would NOT make his own lunch or put it in his lunch pail. If I didn't do it, he would buy out and we can't afford that. He knows this, but he would do it anyway and leave us short for groceries or something else. That is just the way he is. Spend now, worry about the short later, anyway...) He then tells me that his boss's wife has gotten up with her husband every morning for the last 25 years and packed him his lunch and stayed up to see him out the door (I usually go back to bed once I've made my husbands lunch) and how she loves to do it, blah, blah. I told him that time, "you know, you tell me all these stories of all these other women who do these things for their husbands and I'm clearly not doing enough, but how about what those men do for their wives? Did they have affairs on them? Do they treat their wife with respect, compassion, have empathy for them, take care of them ever?" He has no answer for that.

When he is sick and I am sick. He is sicker. Sure, he might ask how I'm feeling, but once he's got whatever it was I had, he is so much sicker. I'll never forget the time he had the same sore throat that I had had a few days earlier (where he dragged me out to his friends house to hang out even though I felt like crap and didn't want to go) and then 4 days later when he gets sick he's asking me, in his weakest most pathetic voice, to get him cough drops and will I go to the store and get him some ginger ale (it was a sore throat, not a stomach ache!) and he needed me to wrap him in a blanket, or he'd need to sleep all day. He even asked me to get him a package of handwarmers and crack them for him because his hands were so cold!

As far as his childhood, he had both of the treatments which I read as possible causes for NPD. His father was extremely physically and mentally abusive. His dad never hugged him or told him he loved him. He would get beaten for crying. Then there was his mother, over compensating for her husband being a prick, telling her son how great he was (basketball was his thing). So he gets it from both sides.

The thing is, I really just don't know what to do. If this is just prick behavior that can be fixed, I might contemplate the idea of staying and making counseling for him a condition, but I don't know if he'd get anything from it, given his past experience with the anger management class. But if it's NPD, I want to get out. I have read that you cannot live with these people. I do not want my kids exposed to that, without them ever seeing any improvement (that he is taking steps to better himself and make things right). He seems to go in cycles. He will be in prick mode for a while and then turn nice. This time what seemed to turn his mood is me telling him I was going to leave. He has come home and been nice to the kids the last few nights he's been home. He thanks me for supper, calls me his lovely wife and how great I am, let's watch a movie and snuggle together, yadda, yadda. If I play along and do all of the right things, don't raise a fuss over anything, tell him how great he is and be super appreciative of all he does (he works and that's it!) then his good mood will last a while. But if I don't, it's back to prick ville.

Lack of compassion: I miscarried baby #3. I needed a DNC. He went to work that day, his mom is the one who came to the hospital with me. He did not take care of me when I got home, I still cooked and did laundry. When I told him (years later) that I was really hurt that he hadn't come and been more supportive, he told me I should have asked. Really, should I have to ask for support like that? Shouldn't he know? I had baby #2 at home. Same thing. Did not help with laundry or food or cleaning. He just does his thing.

During the A when I let him know how much the kids were hurting, he tells me the kids are spoiled and they have it good compared to the kids in Afghanistan. He is GREAT with our kids when they are babies, but once they have a mind of their own and they require time and attention behind him just holding and cuddling, he completely tunes out. He does not read stories (unless badgered by me) or really ever play with them. I remember times when he was overseas and he would come home for a couple of weeks. You would think he would want to soak up that time with his kids. Nope. He'd stay at the house and watch t.v. while I took the kids to the playground. I asked him to make us a campfire one night so I could do smores with the kids. He says he'll come out and do it. 1/2 hour later son goes in looking for dad and he's upstairs on the computer playing a game. Son comes to tell me and I tell him to go ask his grandfather (who lives next door) to see if he'll do it. About an hour into it, once we have the fire going and are already doing smores, H comes sauntering out and joins in. Is there for a little while and ends up going in first because it's "too buggy."

Sorry, that was probably a mess to read. Wish I had more time to make it a little more ordered. Anyway, opinions? Is he just an asshole or possible NPD?

Oh, I should say, H does admit that he thinks something is wrong with his brain. He thinks he is very dark and says he knows he is not a happy person inside, maybe he is depressed. But he DOES not see the ego type things if you bring them up. If you bring up him thinking he's smarter then everyone, he might say "because I am smarter then most people" or respond with saying "No, I admit "so and so" is smarter then me."


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1230 | Registered: Feb 2011
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

goddess,
Someone on SI once described a "do-gooder narcissist." Part of what you talk about sounds like that. FWIW, you could be describing my STBXWH. I'm sorry that I can't remember who posted this originally:
My IC calls it the "do-gooder narcissist". Not the typical pilot or surgeon or rock star who you pretty much know is probably a cheater going in because of their grand opinions of themselves.

Nope. This guy is the one that everyone always says, "he's so nice"; "he's such a good guy". The thing that kills them the most is when people don't believe that any more. That's why they will never admit it. Mine did the same exact thing. "It just started after we separated", which is total bullshit since, all along, this is the person that everyone had suspected. So, suddenly, he moves out for no apparent reason and they "find" each other.

For these types of guys, we are their emotional mirrors. They know what they're doing is awful, but they can't bring themselves to look at us for fear of having to face it. It's the most frustrating, disgusting, cowardly thing in the world. Instead of manning up and either admitting to the A and/or admitting that they are not happy and need to do some work on the marriage (since most of us had no fucking clue that they were unhappy before the entire world blew up), they decide to end a marriage and destroy a family for reasons that are never really clear. They blame shift and use things that were said or done years and years ago to justify their behavior even though those things have never before come up as problems. They gas light to make us think we're nuts when we know something is up. And, the worst of the worst, is that they sit on the fence and try to have it all while we are brought to the depths of despair. They watch it and do nothing to make it better.

I struggle with this every minute of every day. I wonder what happened to that nice guy. I wonder if this propensity was always just sitting under the surface and it came out because, in the last couple of years, he was forced to grow up.

I fear that with these people we, as the BS, are destined to wonder the rest of our lives, no matter how we move on and what happiness we find. It will always be a mystery to me.


I saved that and titled it "Mr. STBXNell in a nutshell" and then made a note that it was *not* written by me, as it was so spot-on that it was scary. Sound familiar to you?

By the way, NPD has become my second home. Hello, all!


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Goddess,

He would fall under the category of Grandiose Narcississt. I will find something on it for you and post it when I get a chance. You can read it and see if it fits......I think it does...... to a tee.

Really, the best thing you can do is read everything you can get your hands on regarding sociopathic disorders. Usually they have more than one disorder.....but NPD is their primary and most prevalent.

There are 3 major types of Narcississts but there are various manifestations of the behaviors. NPD has only been diagnosed since 1980 and not much research has been done.....the drug companies don't see the profit. So pin point diagnosis is difficult at best.

If you have insurance that will cover it, maybe you can get him to have a psychological evaluation done. They are around $1500.00 and take 5+ hours. He won't readily agree to it...most likely. My IC suggested that I present it as we "both" get a psychological eval. done. She was willing to do that....or so she said, but mainly so she could prove that I was fucked up. Which I am.....but I am not NPD. We never had the tests done because she was tired of my reacting to the cheating. She could not stay with me unless I never brought it up again..... She had also agreed to a poly....I wish I had done both before we split....just for my own peace of mind. Now I just have to accept the nut house diagnosis and accept the truth that I found on my own. I hope the need to know will disipate over TIME.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am still looking for the site that describes the 3 different types but in the mean time....check this one out. It will answer a lot of your questions.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/THE-NARCISSIST-Read-Only/Fast-Track-Learning-about-Narcissists-by-Sam-Vaknin-1-1044750.html

ETA: I just noticed the "inverted narcississt" description at the bottom of the page......uggghhhh!!!! Very Very Scary!!!!


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
soverybetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 32948
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Goddess, so much of what you wrote I was shaking my head yes to and "yep that is NPD". You husband has to always be right because to be wrong in unthinkable. He is Mr Wonderful to others because he needs their praise. You are allowed in his "intelligent circle" because when he looks at you he sees the qualities he lacks and wants them from you.

Have you read page 1 of this thread? We posted a lot of the traits of an NPD. Also read "Narcissist Lover". It was what openned my eyes to why my stbx acted the way he did.

They are always sicker than you because they need to you cater to them. They do not acknowledge your illness, miscarriage because you are not allowed to be ill because then you are not feeding their ego. You must always be there to praise them.

They know more than doctors, lawyers and anyone else they feel upsets their "fantasy" life. My stbx actually called my neurologist drunk to tell him off and he kept telling me what was wrong with me. I was ill for 5 months and he deserted me for someone who wasn't ill and who stroked his ego.

When and NPD looks at you they see themselves and eventually he will break you down and you will lose the very qualities the drew him to you. If you are strong and independent he will want those qualities until he has taken them from you and then you are no longer his "supply".

My IC diagnosed my stbx as Narcissist and Sociopath just from the information I gave her about my 12 years with him. I told her about his rages and she told me to never go back to him. Your wh has the NPD rage and that is what you see when he breaks things and he yells. Please becareful because they can get to the point in a rage where they will threaten to hit you. Mine did for 4 years before I finally left. I knew that this rage was the worst and he would either beat me or kill me.

Please read all you can on NPD because I believe that you wh is an NPD. Good luck and I hope you can separate easily if that is what you want.


Me-53
DDay 10/16/2010 DDay2 5/22/2011
Divorced 8/23/2012
I will get stronger and better but no matter where he goes, there he is....

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Being an AWESOME ME!
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More for your reading pleasure:

http://forum2.aimoo.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/THE-NARCISSIST-Read-Only/10-Easy-Steps-to-Understanding-NPD-1-442025.html

"Everything a narcissist does (or refrains from doing) is geared towards one goal: to obtain and secure the flow of narcissistic supply. If slandering you facilitates the flow of narcissistic supply (for instance, by provoking the sympathy and commiseration of his listeners) - he will slander you."

The history rewrite....They become the victim....

"When you need three years to say goodbye to your ABUSER - something is wrong. It is called codependence and is pathological. Healthy people want to put as much distance as they can between themselves and their source of pain and to do it as quickly as possible."

If you are having trouble leaving your NPD spouse this should shout out at you....


"If a tiger was somehow miraculously made self-aware and realize that it is a predator - would it stop its predatory behaviors and become a vegetarian???"

If you are like me and keep "wishing" you can fix them.....This is a reality check...

These quotes are from this site.....lots of good stuff here.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/THE-NARCISSIST-Read-Only/Dr-Vaknin-Inside-the-Mind-of-the-Narcissist-1-439064.html

A huge wealth of information on this site. Even excellent book recomendations. As well as possible other disorders that are easily confused with NPD..... This should be saved under favorites....I forgot to.....and just rediscovered this site. It is mind boggling at times.....so read and re read some of this stuff. Each time I re read I see things more clearly.


ETA: I forgot to add the link

http://forum2.aimoo.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/THE-NARCISSIST-Read-Only-1-41631

[This message edited by Frank2010 at 2:13 PM, January 25th (Wednesday)]


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
thenon-goddess
♀ Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My IC suggested that I present it as we "both" get a psychological eval. done. She was willing to do that....or so she said, but mainly so she could prove that I was fucked up. Which I am.....but I am not NPD.

Thanks, Frank, for giving me the one laugh of the day! I too am fucked up in my own ways, but not NPD. When I started reading "The Wizard of Oz and..." the other day I saw myself on some of the pages and started thinking "oh, shit!" Felt very much reassured when the author pointed out that if we saw ourselves in some of the situations, it was proof that we weren't NPD, because someone with NPD would not be able to think that they might have it. Phew!

Okay, now that we have the "light" stuff out of the way, let me just say that what I am reading and finding out has be literally sick to my stomach. It kind of makes the A seem irrelevant, which is good I guess, but it makes me very sad for other reasons. 1) the last 11 years of my life have been a farce? 2) my children have a soul-less monster for a dad? 3) during the A at least I had hope that we could work it out, now I have to admit that there's really not much hope.

In the first link you posted I found these things that really stood out to me:

The very last line especially of this...


Even the victim's relatives, friends, and colleagues are amenable to the considerable charm, persuasiveness, and manipulativeness of the abuser and to his impressive thespian skills. The abuser offers a plausible rendition of the events and interprets them to his favor. Others rarely have a chance to witness an abusive exchange first hand and at close quarters. In contrast, the victims are often on the verge of a nervous breakdown: harassed, unkempt, irritable, impatient, abrasive, and hysterical.”
Confronted with this contrast between a polished, self-controlled, and suave abuser and his harried casualties – it is easy to reach the conclusion that the real victim is the abuser, or that both parties abuse each other equally. The prey's acts of self-defense, assertiveness, or insistence on her rights are interpreted as aggression, lability, or a mental health problem.

and

The abuser mistreats only his closest spouse, children, or (much more rarely) colleagues, friends, and neighbours. To the rest of the world, he appears to be a composed, rational, and functioning person.

and

Most personality disordered people are prone to be angry. Their anger is always sudden, raging, frightening and without an apparent provocation by an outside agent. It would seem that people suffering from personality disorders are in a CONSTANT state of anger, which is effectively suppressed most of the time.

to the above I would say that at times I know with what I say I will get a response out of him, but I don't believe the rages that he gets into sometimes are appropriate for what the "trigger" was.

and this resonated the most...scary really...

The narcissist teams up with his partner because he regards IT as a Source of Narcissistic Supply. He values the partner as such a source. Put differently: the minute the partner ceases to supply him with what he needs – the narcissist loses all interest in IT. (I use IT judiciously – the narcissist objectifies his partners, he treats them as he would inanimate objects.) ...
if you wish to sever your relationship with the narcissist, stop providing him with what he needs. Do not adore, admire, approve, applaud, or confirm anything that he does or says. Disagree with his views, belittle him, reduce him to size, compare him to others, tell him that he is not unique, criticise him, make suggestions, offer help. In short, deprive him of that illusion which holds his personality together.

It makes sense of him "allowing me" into his circle of grandeur, as long as I'm not threatening his position at the top. It also COMPLETELY explains the affair. Right before he left to go overseas I had reached a point of total pissed off with him. I was just fed up with his bullshit. I was pregnant, stressed and he was just acting like a prick. There was no more me trying to please him or build him up. Essentially I had (not knowing what it was at the time) pulled a 180 on him. And what does he do? Go have an A. Find a new source for ego stroking. Cue the song "I can see clearly now..."

ImNellNow -

I saved that and titled it "Mr. STBXNell in a nutshell" and then made a note that it was *not* written by me, as it was so spot-on that it was scary. Sound familiar to you?

Yes, it sure does, sadly. I need to look up the term and read more on it...thanks.

svb -

My IC diagnosed my stbx as Narcissist and Sociopath just from the information I gave her about my 12 years with him. I told her about his rages and she told me to never go back to him. Your wh has the NPD rage and that is what you see when he breaks things and he yells. Please becareful because they can get to the point in a rage where they will threaten to hit you. Mine did for 4 years before I finally left. I knew that this rage was the worst and he would either beat me or kill me.

I stopped going to IC when we couldn't afford it, but this is making me really want to scrape together the money and get back to her. Your post has me feeling scared. My mother divorced my father when I was 2 because he was an alcoholic and abused her. When I've told her some of what has gone on she has also expressed to me that she is scared for me. My husband is very into guns. We have gone target practicing as an activity together. He always compliments me when we go shooting, building me up. Surely someone who was NPD wouldn't do that. Now, with what you and Frank have posted, I see why. It worries me a little. My husband is very intent on revenge. He still holds on to stuff that happened to him as a child and comes up with ideas on how he would like to get back at these people that have wronged him. I have always taken it sort of like the ideas of things I'd like to see happen to OW (just a fleeting fantasy thought that you'd never act on - a vent), but now I wonder what he may possibly be capable over. Which button would I have to push to send him over the top. I don't know what I want to find out.

Frankly what scares me the most is that leaving this man would mean that he gets unsupervised access to our children, where I am not there to be a buffer or see what goes on and talk to the kids about later. I HATE that idea. Does that make me sound controlling? Probably, and maybe I am, but it worries me for my kids and their self-esteem and what it might cause them to grow up like.

Funny how about a year ago the worst thing in my life was losing my husband to another woman. Today, it's not having lost him to her...

[This message edited by thenon-goddess at 2:04 PM, January 25th (Wednesday)]


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1230 | Registered: Feb 2011
soverybetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 32948
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am sorry, I wasn't trying to scare you. I just wanted you to know that if he has rages then they can turn on you quickly. For years my stbx told me how he could kill someone and no one would ever find the body. I laughed it off until the Sunday before I moved out when he said he could kill ME and no one would find my body. That was the end for me. I had taken the verbal, emotional abuse but I would not allow him to hit me or stay to let him kill me. He has 2 guns and the look in his eyes that night was like looking into a black abyss, there was no soul it was pure hate.

Not all NPDs get like this but just know that what set mine off was asking questions about his affairs. He would also go into a rage if I said no to anything.

This link is very good, read this:
http://forum2.aimoo.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/category/10-Easy-Steps-to-Understanding-NPD-1-442025.html

It discusses the rages and how to react to them.

You need to educate yourself on NPD so that if you decide to stay you know how to treat him. I don't know if yours had done the "silent treatment". It is their way of punishing you, but for me it got to be where I looked forward to not having to talk to him.

Reading Narcissist Lovers was the best thing I ever did. I finally had answers as to who he was and how he could throw away 11 years of marriage.

Only you know what is best for you but please read as much as you can on NPDs.


Me-53
DDay 10/16/2010 DDay2 5/22/2011
Divorced 8/23/2012
I will get stronger and better but no matter where he goes, there he is....

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Being an AWESOME ME!
thenon-goddess
♀ Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Svb - don't apologize. You said some things I needed to hear. My kids just got home from school but I am going to try to pm you later. Lots whirling in my head...


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1230 | Registered: Feb 2011
phmh
♀ Member
Member # 34146
Default  Posted: 2:49 PM, January 25th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I stopped going to IC when we couldn't afford it, but this is making me really want to scrape together the money and get back to her.

If you can't get the $ together, please at least go to the library and get a bunch of the recommended NPD books. If your library doesn't have them, talk to the librarian and get them through interlibrary loan.

While I am seeing an IC, much of my healing and revelations have been because of this board, baggagereclaim.com (not about NPD specifically, but very helpful), NPD websites, and reading.

You can still work on things without the IC, though that's certainly recommended if you can afford it!


Me: BW, divorced, now fabulous and happy!

Married: 11 years, no kids

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. -Michelangelo


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