The initial S was easy. The anger helps to move you forward. Once all hope is gone, once the numbness has set in, once you have a name for their brokeness, once the understanding hits, it become easier.
However, you still look for that person you loved because you really thought they loved you as you do them.
I struggle sometimes, but it gets easier with every stupid, insensitive thing they say, everything nasty and hurtful thing they do until one day the things add up to too much damage to turn back, even if you wanted to. I told people the humiliating things he did, the nasty words he spoke, how long it was like that. I set in motion the accountability to myself. I know that over the years I was able to forgive and move on for my kids and marriage. I knew that I would be there again, but this time I don't want to waste anymore time on a man who doesn't know how to love me like I deserve to be loved.
I demand more, I demand excellence, just like I give.
I fail, I hope, I seek, but he never turns up. I saw a remorseful man save his family, I know what he did, I know what that is, what I expect. No more, no less. And if he can't get it with all the articles that I sent him from the healing library, then he just doesn't get it or want to.
I guess I am one of the lucky NPD spouses in that my NPD STBXWH is still seeing MOW, so he's getting his N supply from her. For weeks, he was going back and forth and getting N supply from both of us, but I finally put a stop to that and he seems fine with just getting his supply from her.
I wish I had some good advice, but if you google around, you can find info on leaving an N. I think getting your ducks in a row is paramount so that you can make a quick getaway when the time is right.
I was actually coming in to post another memory of our marriage. My STBXWH NPD used to tell me how he wished he could be married to himself because he's just so wonderful, can you imagine how great things would be if there were 2 of him? At the time, I thought he was joking. But his MOW is a clone of his mom and has the same profession as he does, so obviously he was serious!
Married: 11 years, no kids
The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. -Michelangelo
This is a typical conversation:
Me: So how was your day?
Me: What did you do today?
Me: did you watch TV?
Me: Was there anything good on?
Throw in long silences between and you have an exhasperatingly boring and frustrating conversation.
However, if you talk about something she is interested in......I can't get a word in because my contribution to the subject is insignificant.
Though boring is not listed as any of the traits....I think it coincides with their need to turn the conversations to what they are interested in....and if they can't then they sit there and almost sulk. Then afterwards criticize the other person in a social setting. Or even complain that they were bored.
I did read on another thread that someone had observed that they found that people that are bored.....are generally boring people.
I really hope more people will chime in on this subject....it intrigues the hell out of me. Even if "boring" is attributed to another trait, I would like to know if it is consistantly present in NPD. I don't want to hog this thread so I will address how I think this "boring" trait contributed to the infidelity. I will expound on that from my personal experience and conversations with STBX. We discussed this precisely.
Hope some of you will chime in on the subject.
Status: S & D'ing
I would suggest things for him/us to do together, but it was never enough (of course!)
The only things he wanted to talk about were his job, WWE wrestling, and video games. None of which are very interesting to me, but he would go in detail about some wrestler's theme music, signature finishing move, etc. or step by step for whatever boring experiment he was doing in the lab, or discussing endlessly about whatever video game he was playing or wanted to get.
I remember being so frustrated with him because I love learning new things, so would want to discuss things with him, but he never would. And he's relatively intelligent (is a physician) too!
But yes, conversations, especially phone ones, were excruciating.
Sorry OGG, I can't contribute on the divorce question.....not divorced....yet. But as far as the Separation.....she left because I was no longer needed. I was financial support besides the emotional and ego kibbles. I cut off the finances after dday, and I was unavailable emotionally after dday, and I realized tht all my attempts were ego kibbles so I cut them off. She still tried to keep me in confusion with PA behavior for a long time. Since she beat the crap out of me there have been no physical rages but there was raging with verbal assaults and the pissed off glares and attitude as I was trying to exit the marriage. I wish I had just done it quietly and went 100% NC.....I could have avoided all the drama trauma. All the drama was still feeding her ego. Now I avoid it by not poking the bear and she is fading away since she is getting nothing and I mean nothing from me.
I did learn recently that shw was going to raise a ruccus in the divorce and lawyered up, but as soon as I learned that....well.....I kinda used some of what I learned about dealing with and leaving an NPD....It seems to have paid off. The lawyer talk is dead for now..... Now I am in super stealth mode until this is over....I have the bear hibernationg for a while.
I could go on for days about how boring WH is! If you aren't willing to talk about his favorite subjects, there really is not much conversation. For instance:
Football, basketball, hunting, fishing... any sport, really. And he is the king of them all. I kid you not. He gets mad and very insulting because the boys and I don't care about sports. (Which, of course, is my fault. My not liking sports taught them not to; alternatively, I failed to give him children who love sports. My failure.) Two love fishing, two love hunting, but all other sports, no. Part of the reason is that watching a game on TV means listening to WH hold forth on every single play, and what should have happened. Why the calls should have gone his way. How he would lead his team to Superbowl victory... Every. Single. Game. The other part of the reason is that he screams profanities at the TV through the entire game. We all wore out on that pretty fast. Once, I explained that it was a major reason I quit watching with him. His answer? "Oh, thanks. Just take away the last thing I have to enjoy." Then he sulked. No, I'm not joking.
Politics. He knows everything about everything, even though he does not do more than read a few articles and watch the news. (This is because he's so much smarter than everyone, as he likes to point out.) My brother, who studies politics, knows nothing... WH tells me all the time how much more he knows. The ways my brother is wrong. Why my brother is stupid for believing what he does. Why my brother is wrong wrong wrong. I am also wrong. That goes without saying.
The Bible/Christian principles. He will go on and on and on about what it says or means. Never mind that in quite a few cases he's wrong. He will expound greatly on how the Bible says this or that, then turn to me for confirmation. If he's wrong, I just say, "Yep." I finally learned not to correct him and just let it go.
I could go on, but that's enough for one post. Suffice it to say, I can see a connection between boring and NPD. I find myself saying in my head, "Will you PLEASE SHUT UP? DO I F-ING CARE? SHUT UP!!" I say uh huh and yep out loud. But to talk about something I love? Nope, he can't do it for long. He always turns it into something about him.
Out of it today. Edited for so many typos I am ashamed to admit I want to be a writer.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 7:12 PM, January 28th (Saturday)]
How to leave them/get them to leave?
To get my NPDWH to leave turned into the fight of my life but once I discovered how to use his NPD against him it all started falling into place.
My NPDWH chose not to R because he had hopes his MOW would leave her H. I didn't know these people but I didn't need a crystal ball to figure MOW was never going to leave her husband for my idiot husband. But after DDay he suddenly got scared and refused to leave the house. He wanted to stay as housemates.That's how NPD he is. I'm sobbing 24/7, on the infidelity diet, begging him to leave because we rent and are allowed to have pets which suits me more than him because he didn't want our animals.
He started threatening me. He told me if I didn't accept us living as housemates then that meant I wanted him to hit me.
I discovered three things to use as weapons:
1. The 180. I 180'ed his ass. I cut off his N supply, while still remaining coldly civil.
2. What's in for him? It's all about what's in for him. Do not expect he will keep his promises and do not expect he will be fair. He said he was thinking of going back to his home town one minute then threatening to stay and kick me out the next. I waited until he next said he was thinking of leaving then I acted quickly. I got an official form from the Real Estate applying for the bond for the house we were renting, to be transferred into my name only. I managed to get him to sign it. I knew he thought he could change his mind. Then I dated it and submitted it.
Which brings me to #3.
3. He's a wimp. He tends to be intimidated by people in authority. Once I told him the bond was now legally in my name, therefore so is the house and after the date on the form I would get the police involved if he was still living here .. he finally and grudgingly left. But it took 7 weeks of hell and always trying to think a step ahead of him, which actually wasn't too difficult because he is the type of NPD who thinks of short term gain rather than long term. And that's the key. What's in it for them.
Yes he took half the furniture with him. He even took petty things which I asked him to leave.
But I had to choose my battles. The most important thing was that he left and my well being and safety.
PS We were paying off a huge big screen TV. It was his idea. Big screen TV's give him an N supply.
I graciously 'gave' him the TV (still owing $1000 on a $1800 TV) in return for him transferring the rental bond ($2500)to me. You could almost feel his glee, thinking he had screwed me over with this deal. And the best thing was, we were given the SAME TV but slightly smaller, as a bonus when we bought the TV. Which I got to keep.
So I still had a TV and the $2500 bond and he got the slightly larger TV and the debt(and he struggles to pay off his debts).
I wonder if he's worked it out yet that I actually screwed him over?
Anyhoo ... you can get them to leave. You just have to really think it through and use their NPD against them.
If they won't leave then you have to leave. You will survive. In fact you'll thrive without them because you wont be having to put up with their NPD crap.
"Live the best life possible."
If he did talk at home it was all about him. How stupid his boss was and how he was always way smarter and his next absurd get rich quick scheme and his boring family and his health and his kids and blah blah blah. When he'd talk and talk I'd go to a happy, and more interesting place,in my mind like making a shopping list ....
But in the early 'charm and seduce days' we'd talk until the sun came up. He was the epitome of an wonderful conversationalist.
But months after he'd left, and was texting and emailing me with "oh I fucked up, I love you, you are so beautiful, you are so wise, I miss you" crap, I rang him to wish him well and to say goodbye ...
I saw the real man. We spoke for a hour. Except I was the one that answered with hmmm and yep and no. I listened to him trying to be charming but I could hear the fakeness. I could hear his increasing fatigue. It's exhausting trying to be someone you're not. It made me giggle. It was highly amusing.
Now I know why, when he was still living here after DDay, he looked really peed off and sighed with annoyance when the MOW rang his mobile. Of course he answered with a fake loving tone.
Why was he peed off when his soumate schmoopie rang? She'd interrupted his TV viewing and now he had to fake interest in her day.
[This message edited by Faith2011 at 10:49 PM, January 29th (Sunday)]
First, I left him. I collected all the important documents I needed, I packed and I left. Whenever I was in the house with him, I was packing. Silently. It drove him nuts.
Second, I insulted his intelligence and mocked him. A lot. Like it was my part-time job. It wasn't hard, he was all style and no substance. When I'm angry, my focus becomes razor sharp and I can come up with amazing one-liners. He told me how old his current OW was, and I said "Oh, just like your Mom." He was totally cowed. I made a crack once about how if he got married again, maybe we could start dating. And then laughed in his face. The tone of voice I used with him was the same tone of voice you use with a child. I treated him like he was incompetent and pointed out every stupid or wrong thing he said.
Third, I told all of the mutual friends the details of his length infidelity and the awful things he had said about them. They have remained friends with him, so I've cut them off, but now they all know what kind of person he is and how he slagged on all of them behind their backs.
Basically, I did to him in 4 months, what he had been doing to me over the course of a decade.
He had to delete ALL the women he added just to "goad me," and the ones who were there so he could "just look." Yep, he got mad, and the fight was on. He didn't like that idea one bit.
By the time the fight was over, I had another raging headache, and was so exhausted from keeping track of his lies and deflections, my version of the 180 was born.
-I don't smile at him.
-I don't talk to him first.
-When he comes in the bedroom, (I'm currently in bed for the winter, almost exclusively, which is helpful,) I don't stop what I'm doing immediately, which irks him. (He demands OUR attention, but he can continue to watch TV or play on the computer when WE talk. He HATES "Just a minute." No matter the reason.)
-I don't talk to him AT ALL unless I need him to get something from the store, and I don't say please, and rarely more than a very bland thanks.
-My answers are mostly monotone.
-When asking for praise for his humor, brilliance, etc, I just lift one side of my mouth in a small smirky smile and make a brief "hm" sound. Kind of a snort.
-I go to sleep before him, if possible, and lay in a position that prevents him from cuddling.
-If I can't sleep before he does, I roll away and pretend I'm almost asleep.
It seems to be driving him nuts, because he makes more trips into the bedroom, but gets less from me each time. I know it's working, because at first he was very solicitous, bringing me food, making sure I had water, etc. Not so much, now. He eats and offers me nothing. He comes to tell me whatever, and leaves. He hasn't asked me if I want another cup of coffee in two days.
Yeah, I think the 180 is going to help a lot. I am very underwhelmed by his attention. He HATES it. Oh, and to make me "feel better," he deleted TWO of the approximately 15 women who are there still to annoy me, and only ONE of the ones I specifically asked him to get rid of - the worst one is STILL THERE. Oh, yeah, he cares how I feel.
It's so obvious to me, now, how he takes what I say makes me uncomfortable or unsafe, and uses it as an attack - all the while telling me I'm crazy or wrong to feel uncomfortable or unsafe. When I look at him, all I see is NPD. Every day, I see more of it in him. Frank, SVB and the others are right... the more you know, the easier it is to see.
* A good girlfriend would go out and get me tacos right now (we'd been dating 5 months in college, he was drunk and just vomited all over my floor -- which I cleaned up the next day.) He frequently laughed at this and would say "a good wife would..." for the rest of our relationship.
* I wish I could be married to myself. Can you imagine how awesome a relationship with two of me would be?
* I am the most efficient person in the world. I can do anything faster than anyone else.
* Only other rheumatologists can understand me. (never mind that I am much more intelligent than he is.)
So many more! I also have been thinking a lot about things and I can pinpoint the day his feelings for me changed and he became very hostile. It was last spring. We are both runners. He came home one morning and was very strange. I figured out he'd pooped his pants while running and asked him about it. He raged and tried to deny, but ultimately confessed. I was very nice about the whole thing and never made fun of him, but I think he was so embarrassed and it went against his N thoughts. I can't remember him saying "I love you" to me after that incident.
Anyone else have any telling comments that you didn't recognize at the time as being so significant?
[This message edited by ohgoodgrief at 6:08 PM, January 30th (Monday)]
Others may have differing opinions.....I hope they chime in.
But prepare for how this will transpire. Will you be having him served the D papers at home or at work? Where will you be when that happens and after he is served.
Probably not a good idea to be at home alone so do you have someone who can come spend the night? If you do and it is best for them to spend a Friday night, then you need to co-ordinate that with the process server.
If you didn't stay home that night, would he take things from the house? I would recommend you have all important documents copied and stored at a friends or somewhere he won't have access to.
Make sure you have some cash on you. Have your car gassed up full. Perhaps ask your attorney about withdrawing half of the bank account balance, just prior to him being served. If you have joint credit card accounts, anticipate that he may close them. If you don't have a credit card account in your own name - apply for one ASAP.
If you don't have one yet, get a VAR and have it in your pocket anytime you are around him. If you have a video camera, use it, or even a still camera, take photos for record of the contents of the house. In case he starts removing things.
This will likely be a big poke at the NPD bear. Ask your attorney what can be done to get him out of the house and how quickly? Assume that even if he leaves immediately, he probably can come back at any time.
Good Luck and post here often. Let us know how you are doing as he processes what is happening.
I did not budge. If he wouldn't leave then I was going to and the kids were going with me. I went upstairs and got down the luggage and proceeded to pack. He folded. After all, he didn't want to be responsible for the house and the pets and he would be leaving to go back to work. So I "won" that round I guess.
I quickly realized that the boundaries needed to be more firm. The weekend visits came with the expectation of a shower and the use of the washer and the bathroom. After posting here that every drop off included him taking a POO in the guest bathroom, I put the boundary in place and the door was closed. I gathered the kids at the door and shut it firmly.
This boundary was countered with a false report to the police of domestic abuse against me. (unfounded and dropped. I discovered it during a search for the report against him that I filed after he broke in). The break in led to a TRO that was later not upheld due to ?????? I still don't know. But the hours he spent in jail and at the advice of his Lawyer he backed way off and went silent.
Leaving is a delicate business I think. There is a sense that we belong to the N. If I would have gone with the "we'll always be best friends" party line then we could probably amicably coparent. In that I would still parent, he would play, and we'd all pretend that he is the greatest dad ever and I was just not enough. Or even that he f'd up but that I was great enough to forgive him and how smart he was to choose a decent person like me to mother and manage his life....
As for boring? Well, every phone call was him watching tv, surfing the web or otherwise engaged. Interspersed with vulgar out of left field sex talk.
We'd been married ten years and he actually said "I am not going to talk politics or religion with you." We could not talk about these because he was not confident enough to debate or discuss anything that might cause him to dismiss me as a viable mate. Or maybe he didn't have an opinion he knew how to support and didn't want me to figure that out? No idea.
His best conversations were retellings. He could and would recount his favorite episodes of tv shows (Family Guy, Simpsons, SouthPark) over and over again. He'd laugh every time...
He never participated in conversations with my family at gatherings. He never joined in at parties. He mixed drinks and relied on the few standby stories of concerts or youthful indiscretions or tv shows.
I am so glad to be shed of him. I hate hearing his voice. The condescension in the emails he sends followed by the sucking up false gratitude... Hearing him laugh at everything and the stupid "AWESOME" he says to everything the boys share.
I never thought about it before but in 17 years, there were so few conversations. I chalked it up to the difference between men and women. He always claimed he was not "into sharing" or "touchy feely" telling me that was what my girlfriends were for. huh. I know more about people here on SI whose NAMES I don't know. Sad really.
Be strong. Be well. Be wise.
[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 7:31 PM, January 30th (Monday)]
On an average day during his delivery route, (when he wasn't having the A and talking to the Nasty B@tchC*nt,) he would call me a minimum of 20 times a day, to RANT about the other drivers. Or to tell me YET AGAIN how stupid so-and-so was. Or to RANT about the job. OR OR OR OR.
And then he'd come home, and ask me "WHAT DID YOU DO ALL DAY?"
My verbal response was whatever I did that day, but in my head? "I LISTENED TO YOU B!TCH ABOUT EVERY LITTLE THING THAT HAPPENED TO YOU TODAY, THAT'S WHAT! I LISTENED TO 20, 30, 1000 RANTS ABOUT STUPID SH!T, THAT'S WHAT!"
I'm so glad I have internal conversations. It keeps me from saying a lot of things out loud that I would regret, if for no other reason than he'd pout and pay me back.
Any down time was a phone call full of WTF nothing until he got where he was going or got another call. Then abrupt gotta go! Cause OF COURSE I am just sitting around waiting to entertain you or listen to you about nothing what so ever.
Yep. Forgot those. Calls all day long. Right up until he pulled in the driveway some days....
I can't decide if it was that he couldn't function without an audience. It was not conversation but more a reporting of what he was doing or where he was going or YES a complaint about how stupid the last person he interacted with was.
ah, the good ole days... NOT!