What to you mean, it's not a real problem? When your H says this sort of thing, how do you react? What do you normally say? You know, I have of late realised that my stbxh has NPD traits at least but I can't imagine him saying something like to me without me going completely beserk in front of friends and family alike and I am not an aggressive person by nature. God, these NPD people never cease to amaze me!
You know on the day my FIL passed away, I was holding him in my arms whilst we waited for the ambulance to arrive and he turned to me and said "I think this is it for me". I tried to console him by taking him back to his childhood and told him a story about how he used to ride his bike to school 10 kms away out Bush and tried to get him to imagine him cycling with the wind blowing in his hair. Do you know what he said to me..."Well, I guess I have had a good life, except for the fact that my son married a "Pom"." No wonder my ex is NPD??? I guess this belongs to another thread.
[This message edited by Ellejay at 3:21 AM, November 21st (Monday)]
Nell, I’ll be honest with you, I’m beginning to believe it’s more me. I view this as a relationship issue BTW, not anything having to do with my W’s A. So last night this is how it goes. All day is a great day. So when we go to bed, we snuggle. I can admit, a snuggle more often than not leads to rocking the world. Here I am, waiting and waiting for maybe the test to be over… lol… then just out nowhere, she says, “I don’t want to get sick” , “Can you wait a couple days?” . I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t touch anything.. Me, you are going to get sick if you are going to get sick because we are so close to each other.. the next thing ya know, I not sure if I initiate or she initiated.. lol.. What do you guys think, me or her?
NJgal sent me a great video via pm and I believe the woman on it.
Oh well, off to have a good day.
Dear God. Stay strong, honey. I don't know how you do it.
I have no idea what a "Pom" is but I take it it's an insult. What a horrible thing to have on your mind right before you die. I would hope to be going out on loving thoughts, not insulting the person helping me at the end. Yeesh. Miserable.
M3, it is a NPD thing. It's horrible that your WH said this in front of people! Geez. The only good thing about that, is that it made HIM look like an inconsiderate ass to the Nth degree to say something like that in public.
Tryn: Thank you for your comment! I agree that position can make a difference. NPD has also lost it, if he ever had it. Everything is someone else's fault anyway.
As for it being you or her, Tryn, it's a little of both. LTA infiltrates so much of the relationship in such insidious ways. For both of you, it may be deep down that you are still not completely comfortable and open and it's a trigger. I think the more relaxed about it you are, and are just loving and affectionate, it may come more naturally. If you are touching her throughout the day, a loving stroke, a quick neck massage, etc, I'm sure she'll respond to loving gesture too. The pressure will be off for all touch leading to sex, and then..... sex will come more naturally.
Nell: I know, they say the stipidest things, and it does hurt. Words can hurt deeply. NPD still blames his A's on me, mainly because we didn't make love often enough, he was never satisfied with me because I was too loose down there (now this is a contradiction, if he wasn't satisfied, why did he want more sex????)
What else? He was on the phone all the time (speaking his language) and sometimes would pick up the phone to call someone when I was in the middle of a sentence. So, I would read a book while he was on the phone. Now, he tells me I was always reading a book and not paying attention to him!!
They grab at straws. When I asked first xWH why he wanted to leave, the only answer I got was that I didn't mail the bills right away and they would sit on the table for a few days!!
When you are told these things after DDay and your self esteem is at negative 100 + it's hard to deal with
… then just out nowhere, she says, “I don’t want to get sick” , “Can you wait a couple days?” . I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t touch anything..
From the exchange you posted, she was not in the moment enjoying the snuggling; she was thinking about the expectation for sex. This would be the case with FWW. Seemingly EVERY event in her life sets her off worrying about what others are thinking and how she should respond. With sex and us, FWW has told me how if I reached for her hand in bed, or rolled up close to her, or she realized I had an erection, or she had seen me grooming more than normal that evening, then she would lay in bed unable to sleep and worried about whether or not I expected sex. Because these things happened frequently, it was (is?) her perception that I always want sex, that she is always disappointing me, and the she would resent me always wanting sex. Note that this is her perception. Me, I probably would like sex once or twice a week instead of the once every month or so, but I absolutely am not trying to initiate sex as frequently as FWW worries that I am.
What do you guys think, me or her?
As for the wonderful LTA ladies who have been on the receiving end of complaints about their anatomy... There was a girl I dated over a year in college who felt a little larger or looser down there than I was accustomed to, but this was an observation on my part, not a complaint. It never prevented me from enjoying sex with her. I suspect that your complaining H’s are feeling insecurity about their performance (do they still get hard enough to pound nails or hang a jacket on it?) and are bullying or cutting you down to take the focus off their issue. It also shows an immense lack of empathy, a hallmark of many personality problems and a real concern in someone with whom you are trying to build an emotionally intimate relationship.
Last night FWW brought up how important what she thinks I am feeling is to her emotional state. This is something we have discussed in the past. The OMs’ feelings were not very important to her, so she did not feel badly if they were upset or she pissed one of them off. She felt they were luckey to have her pay attention to them (she was right ). OTOH, if she perceives that I am upset she feels depressed and often suicidal. If she perceives that I am happy or in a good mood, then she is both happy and sensual. Mind you these are her perceptions of my feelings only, not my actual feelings. For much of our M, and still to some extent, she reads my being quiet (I am a Myers Brigg INTJ) as being upset with her. Even when I am upset about something unrelated to her, she personalizes it. She recognizes this as a problem, is working on separating feelings and facts, but told me again last night how very dependent she is on me and my opinion of her.
She recently asked me to order her a book on CBT. When I Googled CBT I was at first a bit nervous about where she was going, but then realized she meant Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, not the sex related CBT.
She was very affectionate last night (she has been for a few days) and we ended up having sex. Having blown any boundaries I have been trying to create with FWW, I tried to focus on enjoying the moment, and not figuring out if it was “I am attracted to you and in love” sex, or her way of trying to dissuade me from the D we have been talking about and regaining her feeling of control. So I spent the night in her bed last night, and since DS is coming home for T-giving, I will not be able to sleep in his room anyway this week. So much for my detachment.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:43 AM, November 21st (Monday)]
and are bullying or cutting you down to take the focus off their issue. It also shows an immense lack of empathy, a hallmark of many personality problems and a real concern in someone with whom you are trying to build an emotionally intimate relationship.
Thank you, Ats, for this. And also thank you for the "observation" about the girl you dated.
I hope this is not TMI, but, I know it was a joke for many years about a man: "It's not the size, but what he was able to do with it"
I have only made love to two men in my life, and they were both my husbands, so I have nothing to compare to....
But, Ats, you are so right about the insensitivity. I would never in a thousand years, even today, compare NPD to xWH#1 and tell him.
With NPD, he is upset because I "never did anything about it" or I didn't "care enough about him" to do anything...meaning I didn't have an operation. Even though I told him many times that it would be cosmetic surgery and would not be covered by health insurance, he still brings this up.
God, as I'm typing this, I'm realizing how sick this is!!!
Ats, I like the way that you seem to understand your FWW and have empathy about her feelings. This sounds so much of a deep co dependent issue. Sometimes, when you post about her, I realize that I have been like that in a lesser degree many times, especially with my mother and NPD. It's walking on eggshells training I got from BPD mother. Your FWW wanting sex the other night probably has more to do with her feeling less pressure with you, and just finally letting go for once about her insecurities. I do understand how hard is for you about trying to detach under these circumstances. Despite all the things NPD has done, I still love the bastard for the good things about him, and still can get reeled in with hope again. I did again this time. He was on his best behavior and we got along better than we had in years and years (including before dday) I know this had a lot to do with me letting go of my co dependent behavior and not feeling responsible for his moods.
Ok, I'm starting to ramble!
Your H is embarassed about the Ed issue. That is understandable but it is something that needs to be discussed between H & W. Unless you are taking the advertised "always ready" stuff, there has to be a bit of pre-planning for sex. I can't imagine someone taking a pill and then falling asleep. Those pills are pretty expensive to just waste. Without insurance they are close to $20 each. You can not initiate if he will not be honest with you about the pills and the ED. BTW, it was good to hear that the OW did not show up at the party.
Sounds like Mr NPD has a touch of ADHD. Him making the phone call while you are talking to him. My W has done that to me before. It makes me wonder if I am just a little bit boring. My W will also walk out of the room while I am talking to her. Strange stuff.
This feelings are facts stuff is really hard to handle. My W always thinks her negative feelings are the total fact. When I am quiet I must be mad! If I am not in a good mood about something it must be something she has done. I am trying to lose a little weight and just not eating as much food as usual. I have told her this more than once. However, if I do not eat much of what she cooked, she thinks it is because she did not cook the right thing or because it was not cooked right. She discounts the fact that I do not eat as much of what I cooked either. That is a non factor. Like your W these things are all about what she views as my opinion is of her. As you know, this thought process can lead to anger in her and in her case start the "snowball of the gripe butt" rolling down hill and straight at me. What exactly is your W doing to work on the separating the feeling from facts? My W does not know she has this problem so I guess it will be hard to get her to work on this.
I have been taking some different meds because of a phyisical problem. I feel like a lab rat. Try these for a few days, bad side effects, so try these, different side effects, so try these......and so on. All the meds help the original problem but just something different to the plate. I guess if WE keep throwing darts, WE will hit the board at some point.
Hugs to the tribe.
Ok. Random non-infidelity related brag over.
Dip: Lol, oh yes, "pencil dick" is what my neighbor said when I told her about this!! She also said I should tell him he is not man enough for me But, I wouldn't tell him this, because I know how devastating it would be for a man to hear this.
Good observation about NPD having ADHD. Believe it or not, DS16 made this same observation about 6 months ago. (DS 13 has ADD) You know, it's not so bad about the phone calls, but when I pointed it out to him, he got mad and blamed me for being sensitive. Finally he told me that he would remember something for business and if he didn't make the phone call right there and then, he'd forget. I had to tell him that I understood, but that is all he simply has to say when he is going to interrupt me like that and tell me, excuse me, I have to make this call before I forget. Now he does.
Lol, Dip, I do understand about your FWW's behavior!! Walking out of the room as you are talking....been there done that.
I'm glad that you are taking care of yourself and I hope that you can find some meds that work well for you.
I'm so sorry for those of you who've been insulted this way. :(
I had a minor breakdown yesterday....went to the hospital to visit my mom, one of the nurses is newly pregnant. The other nurse told her she should ask me for advice and such since I've got a ton of kids.
Guy working the desk looks up at me and says, "well it's no wonder you have a lot of children. You are beautiful and any man would be lucky to have you."
Of course, my mind starts racing.
My own husband didn't think he was lucky to have me.
My own husband went elsewhere.
My own husband walked out on his kids for mediocre sex with a toxic girl 8 years younger than him.
WTF. I can't even take a compliment anymore.
And yeah, I told fWH what happened. Why I was upset. He said he was sorry and hugged me....but damn.
What exactly is your W doing to work on the separating the feeling from facts?
Dip, I am not at her IC sessions, so I do not know all of the details. Early in MC it was a matter of him getting her to understand that people or events do not make her mad. That she may become angry because of what a person said or an event that occurred, but that she chooses to become angry. Getting her to accept this took a while. Now in IC he will push her to explain what "being mad" or withdrawn gets her, what is the reason? As she explains it, he says that if being mad wasn't doing something for her, she would not be mad. So this leads to trying to understand why she is mad, rather than presuming she is mad because someone said or did something to anger her.
She is also reading BCT for Dummies. I have not read the book, but she has quoted from the "response" choices listed in the book. It also addresses focusing on the present and not getting into a depression spiral.
It has taken a lifetime, and the fallout of her As, to get to a point where she was open to explore these issues.
M334455, I am happy to see your positive report on the Pasha. Just like Mom, doing his tasks with excellence, and then picking up the slack for others.
But, I wouldn't tell him this, because I know how devastating it would be for a man to hear this.
This is something FWW never did. No matter how much she must hae hated me in our M, and did not want to have sex, she never took a cheap shot. I do not always believe her, but she has always told me how good I am, how "opposite of pencil" I am. She did mention some things that her last OM did very well for her (not that he was better than me). Even this hurt very deeply.
BTW Dip, as an incentive for your diet. Once I lost 50# I really noticed savings on my alcohol bill, that is after a couple of embarrassing occurrences when I did not realizes I could no longer drink so much as I had in the past.
My own husband didn't think he was lucky to have me.
Because his A was about him, not you, as the complement clearly indicated.
I got the same thing. Two of FWW's OM told her how lucky I was to be M to her, and tha I did not appreciate what I had.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:06 PM, November 21st (Monday)]
Try not to let yourself go down that particular rabbit hole. It's not true (because it was not about anything lacking in you) and it's just too damn depressing. Easier said than done, I know. Big hugs, (((WYE)))
Okay, on the extremely personal insult bit, I have to point out that while Mr. STBXNell did talk about that, as well as my ass and stomach not being what they once were (pregnancies are hell, dumbass, bite me), he completely disassociated himself from any of that talk once he was no longer deep in the throes of COW Lurv and has never made any comments like that since. (Of course, he hasn't gone out of his way to compliment me, either, but that topic is SOOOOO LTA#26 ago.) Since I said D, though, and he stopped thinking that he could defensivize me into thinking he's perfection, he has said that the more confusing insults were based on his making decisions for himself and wanting me to act on his decisions and being insulted when I made substitutions that worked for me. Example: me not going to the gym = I "wasn't trying" although I speed-walked 30 to 45 minutes per day plus did weights at home while he used his gym time to see the COW while simultaneously eating crap food to stifle his feelings of guilt... so he got fat while I got more muscular... but he would not let the freaking gym thing go. It was ridiculous. And confusing. But now I get it. I don't like what it says about him, but I get it.
ETA: m3, the kindergarten stuff is do damn cute! Boyo2 gave his performance on Friday... he's such a little ham. Soooo cute. I took video on my phone and have been playing it on and off ever since. Yeah for the Pasha! Way to think on your feet, kid!
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 1:17 PM, November 21st (Monday)]
My W always has a very good reason for these behaviors and I am sure being busy would be one of them. I imagine she would blameshift if I bitched much. She would compare her behavior to me watching T.V. while she talked. She might have a point.
Thanks. That is good info about the anger and why be mad stuff. BTW, drinking is out for me right now. I don't want to do that while playing the Wheel of Fortune drug game.
That post did not make your ass (or stomach) look big. I just wanted to let you know.
You will be able to take those well deserved compliments with much joy one of these days.
Pasha gets the Fast Thinking on your Feet Oscar from the LTA Play Review Board.
I just had a mental flashback to a few years ago when stbxh was grabbing my boobs for the 20th time that day, saying how much he liked them and couldn't live without them. I asked him how he would feel if (God forbid) I ever lost one for some reason i.e. breast cancer. He paused and said "well we'd have to cross that bridge at the time wouldn't we?"
M33 - I think you have a star in the making!
But, I also know that to me, sex is important. If she tries and likes it, why not? She can always say no. I promised not to ever say a word or make a big deal over it... and also told her, if I do act like a baby, she should tell me tough luck pal. It falls on her.
elle: what is a "pom"...
i have to say pfm never had any complaints about my body..but of course that didnt stop all the other complaints....sex was the one area he never complained, at least not to me....it didn't stop him though, he was fucking ow#1 from before and all through.....
i have long ago realized that people need to project onto others to either
a: feel better about their own dificiencies
b: justify bad behavior
and for the most part a or be covers most everything...of course there are the rare occasions that people do earn the insults....like when i say pfm is one fucked up dude...that is not my projecting, not justifying any behavior...its just the unfortunate truth...
i went out on sat nite...pfm looked at me just before i left and tells me i look gorgeous and that he so sorry he is "so fucked up"...i was amazed....the latter part was so damned truthful i almost wondered if he was posessed
i had a really good time, will not post details because they are none of his business....it was a much needed nite out for me...i feel so much better....more aggravation in the house and i am able to let it roll....must remember to maintain those nites out...they do wonders for my soul
m3 and nell: yay for your boys....and yes honest it is a wonderful reminder of what we have to be grateful for this thanksgiving..too bad i cant make that kind of announcement at the dinner table....
tryn: sometimes i think you think too much....she certainly does...not a good combo....
dip: sorry to hear that you are having some medical issues...hope you get them under control and even better get rid of them...
lost i am so happy that she was not only a no show but that you managed to actually have a good time..
fnf: thinkin of you....
thinking of all of our tribe...so many are mia these days...
Pom or Pommy is a slang word the Aussie suse to describe people of British descent. It can be taken as derogatory or a light-hearted dig, depending on the context in which it is used. It is not clear where the term originally came from, the most popular theory is that it is a play on the word "pommegranate" and it was turned into rhyming slang at some stage. Other theories say that it is an acronyn for Prisoner of Mother England (in reference to the early settlers amongst other things). Anyway, I don't think my late FIL (who I loved very much incidentally) was particularly fond of the British for some reason although he'd never travelled there. He was a ganger on the railways and worked with a lot of Brits and Irish.
pfm looked at me just before i left and tells me i look gorgeous and that he so sorry he is "so fucked up"...i was amazed....the latter part was so damned truthful
It was all very truthful. pfm was doubly possessed!
So, last night I gather up my courage and told my wife I felt like I pressured her into making love Sunday night. She said, "no you didn't, I wanted to" And said it with a smile... She went on to say, if she didn't want to, she would have said no.
Ok ats you were wrong and honest was right. A little bit of both was the correct answer!
It really is about my own insecurities. A lingering effect of years of betrayal I suppose. I'm making progress but I'm not sure this within me will ever truly end.
Peace out today folks.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:05 AM, November 22nd (Tuesday)]