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User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 27
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Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well. Today is the official 2 year anniversary of D-day -- at least the Dday when I got OW to confirm that WH's excuses were bullshit.

I'm OK. Not great. Not bad. Might hit the mall and get a nice haircut.

The other day, a much younger friend of mine (24) is having a hard time because her parents don't approve of her boyfriend and they've decided to get married ...

I told her "you know, in life, you're presented with difficult decisions. And you just have to make a choice. And the truth is, sometimes you'll never know whether or not you made the best choice. Sometimes, years later, you get a general feeling about whether or not you made a good choice; but most of the time you don't. And that's just how it is."

I felt a little smart, if I must say so myeself.


M3: I love Baby Paddy!! God bless her! I'm so happy she "graduated"! She is doing great, as is her Mom. Where do you think she learned it all?

That's just how God made her. She's totally spectacular. She's "Baby Gaga"!

Twigs -- one of our posters, tryn -- refers to a "married but single" mentality some people in A's have. I sort of see that in what you describe.

I wasted a lot of time wondering why and what my husband thought and felt the first year and a half. Once I started focusing on how I felt and what I want, I started feeling better.

My husband did tell me why he did it. So I'll share his "why" (he had a 20 year LTA with a woman he went to college with, our families became friends, our sons were best friends, we vacationed together, I had to get the truth from her not WH...) The reason: "It made me feel young to have that connection to my past, it was exciting to take a risk and it was easy."

He honestly threw away our entire family for that.

I'd love to tell you you can heal your marriage, blah blah. LTA is a bit different. Some of us have remained married. From what I see, if your WH busts his tail unceasingly, in about 5 years you might be glad you're married and think that your marriage is better than ever. Otherwise, remaining in it will be some form of compromise. That's what I see. Most of us who remain married either have a plan to leave at a particular time, have little emotional attachment to our spouses or take it day to day and still might leave.

But, the fundamental most basic answer to why your WS did this is because he felt like it and he thought he could get away with it. In the end, it's never more complicated than that, no matter how many layers of nuance anyone tries to add to it.

Well, in honor of Dday I am re-reading my message to OW and her reply. Why not include them for fun?

I had texted her the naked picture I found of her with something that said if she kept acting like that she was going to destroy her marriage.

From: Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:06 AM
To: OW@yesIworkforthefederalgovernementandscrewotherpeoples spousesongovernment"sicktime".gov
Subject: Apology


I'm assuming you got my text messages on Friday and didn't respond. I'd like to apologize for sending them. I was very angry, but that's really no excuse. Instead, I should have called you or e-mailed you like I'm doing now. In case you didn't get them and that's why I didn't hear from you, I downloaded The Pasha's baby pictures from the phone WH was using until January of this year and in with the baby pictures was a naked picture of you. There was also a text message to you on the phone that said "I still think ur smoking hot." Coupled with your statement at the beach a while back that you'd had sex with WH while I was at the grocery store I think it's pretty safe to assume you've been having a full-blown affair with him and I'm sure you can imagine I'm seriously pissed off with both of you. Even if all you have been doing is flirting and sending sexy texts it's still totally unacceptable, but to assume it hasn't gone farther than that pretty much defies human nature.

I have a few things to say to you, and I swear they aren't mean are abusive, so I hope you'll take a minute or two to read this.
First of all, I think you owe me an apology. Not because I have some misguided idea that you "made" WH cheat on me -- I blame him for this 100%. It's his responsibility to be faithful to his spouse whether he wants to pursue someone else or is pursued by someone else, no matter what. I think you owe me an apology because we were friends and having an affair of any kind with a friend's husband is a grave violation of friendship. Now, maybe this was going on long before you and I became friends, I have no idea, but if so then you either shouldn't have made friends with me, or, more intelligently, you should have ended it.

I'd also like to say that I really, honestly didn't believe you when you'd said you had sex with WH when we were at the beach. Though I absolutely do believe you now. You were in a foul mood and being nasty to everyone (which you've long since apologized for, so it's water under the bridge) and WH pretty easily convinced me you were just trying to get my goat, so to speak. I suppose it was incredibly naive for me to believe him, but I refuse to feel stupid for choosing to trust my husband, since you're supposed to be able to trust your husband.

OW, in every other way you've been an excellent friend to me. I absolutely cannot be friends with you because of this, but I will miss you very much. As a matter of fact, I just started crying. I especially want to thank you for being so encouraging when I became ill with the manic episode that led me to get treatment and learn I'm bipolar. Your encouragement and your honesty about the problems you had with depression were what led me to seek help and I truly believe I would be dead now if I had not gone. So, in essence, you saved my life and I can't thank you enough for it.

I'd like to encourage you to work on your marriage with PSOBBH [Poor Son of a Bitch Betrayed Husband]. I know it's been rocky at times and it's not perfect, but all marriages are like that. PSOBBH is a good man, whatever faults he may have, and you have a very nice life with him. Your children will benefit from it too. I'm not talking about counseling, because I honestly believe marriage counseling doesn't work, or rarely works. What works is this: taking a look at what you don't like about your marriage/life and changing it. So, for example, if you want more spending money then you tell your husband that you're going to have more spending money and it's non-negotiable. Open your own bank account and direct deposit part of your paycheck into it if you have to. Things like that. You can't change another person, but you can change how you relate to them and that forces that person to change how they relate to you. It's a little scary, because there is always the risk that the change might dissolve the relationship -- but if you're unhappy or dissatisfied anyway that's not quite the risk it feels like at first. Plus, it usually doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I'm attaching two documents that you might just trash or you might read them and they might be helpful. Who knows? I think you'd benefit from them. What I do know is this: when you put your energy into a person other than your husband, it siphons positive energy away from your marriage whether your husband ever knows about it or not. The grass isn't greener on either side of the fence -- it's greener where you water it. People who don't cheat on their spouses don't refrain from doing so because they lack opportunity or even desire for another person or people, or sexual variety over the course of their lives -- they choose not to cheat because they've made a promise. They keep the promise because they value their word, and the security that keeping that promise brings to their lives. They value gifting their children with a happy, stable home. They value the sense of really, truly knowing another person, of having a witness to their lives, shared memories, traditions, or any one of a multitude of other reasons. You can always wake up and choose to be that kind of person going forward.

I think what has happened here will be a great loss for you, but I could be wrong. WH has told me he won't have any contact with you anymore, but it could be a lie. He's proven quite succinctly that he's more than willing to lie to me. The truth is, in this day and age there are so many ways to be in contact with another person without your spouse ever knowing that there is no way for me to know whether or not he'll keep that promise. But if he does, you'll lose your relationship with him, which was obviously important to you. Either way, we've lost our friendship and that's very sad. Maybe it's sadder for me than you, because you obviously didn't value it the way I did, but I am a good person to be friends with and possibly one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

So, that's about it. Although I am truly amazed I feel this way, I wish you and your family all the best.

God bless -- M3

Oh, and OW -- I'm not going to tell PSOBBH about this. I know, personally I'm devestated and I can't see the point of yet another person suffering.

Subject: RE: Apology
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:30:42 -0500
From: OW@yesIworkforthefederalgovernementandscrewotherpeoples spousesongovernment"sicktime".gov

Hi M3, I did not get any messages. And I am truly deeply sorry – you have no idea. I wish it was different. I appreciate you not telling PSOBBH but he already suspected it. But please, if possible refrain from telling him.

I have no excuses. I wish I did. I have spent hours praying about this very thing but I always acted on impulse. You are right about all of your advice. I will take it to heart and move forward with my life that I have with the man that I made a very important promise and whom I love very much but was not always faithful about keeping that promise.

I too will be out of your life and WH’s. I feel very sad but that is the way it should have been a long time ago.

I wish you and WH all of the best and have the best life possible. I know WH loves you very much and would not have hurt you for the world. But please find it in your heart to forgive him.


Sigh. Today I really feel like breaking NC and calling her and saying -- just a reminder: the statute of limitations for adultery in this state is 5 years and I'm still keeping all the proof POSBBH needs to divorce you and get 70% of your stuff and your kids, etc...

Ok. Maybe I'm not doing as well as I'd thought, LOL.

Anyway -- brow beat me at will! I would do a lot differently now than I did then. I really would.

BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood - I'm doing ok moving forward but its been a tough week.

1. Attended primary school graduation for DD1. I wanted to be there for DD but the whole time I couldnt stand being in the prescence of WW. I'm starting to despise her maybe haeding towards hate.
2. Found a few pages of hand written notes - appears that WW is copying OM text messages - I guess to store with her secret journal. Nothing but fantasy shit fueling her NPD but I felt another plunge into my heart.God I hate the prick.
3. A family friend who has bravely battled breast cancer for the last few years only has a day or 2 to live.This has opened up my childhood wounds as my mother died when i was 6 from breast cancer around this same time. I dont like xmas for this reason. She leaves behind a loving husband & 3 girls. I shits me that WW will use OM to seek comfort while I'm left on my own.

Think I will find our tape of Kipper tonite & watch that & be grateful for what I do have.


Me - BS 49
Her - WS 43
Married 16 yrs (together 17 yrs)
DD13 DS10 DS8 DS6
DDay 1 6.4.2010 dday 2 7.25.2010
Heading for divorce.
"Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up"

Posts: 522 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Where the sun is shining & the surf is pumping
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


It must be so tough having her continue in the A while staying M and in the house with you.

I'm starting to despise her maybe haeding towards hate.

I know this is easier typed than done, but the answer is ultimately detaching and focusing on you. If you can succeed in detachment, I believe that while you will feel anger for your loss you will ultimately feel pity for your WW. As much as the A activity is about trying to be happy and feeling good, nearly all that I read and see from FWW is that the happiness they seek is elusive. They are looking outside to find the happiness they want, rather than looking within.

I know you have heard this before, but embrace the concept that this is not about you, she is not doing this to you. The OM is with her not because he is better than you in anyway. Just the opposite, he is with her because he is less of a man. He too lacks inner confidence and satisfaction, and so he desperately says anything he thinks your WW wants to hear and accepts sharing a woman rather than demand that she leave you in his attempt to convince himself that he is worthy of love and affection.

…WW will use OM to seek comfort while I'm left on my own.

She will not find it, but you have the potential to find comfort within yourself and to perhaps further heal an old wound.

m334455, thank you for sharing your post. I think we all wish that we had done things differently soon after dday, but there really is no “better”. You did and are doing fine. Don't forget the mani and pedi to go with the hair cut.

FWW and I will both will see the MC tomorrow morning. When I brought up D 3 weeks ago, she asked that we resume attending MC during the next few weeks while we wait to see what works out for both of us in different jobs, etc. I cannot tell if her new behavior is damage control because I discussed D, or if the books on CBT that she read are having an influence. She does reference parts of the books frequently. Even with that part working, we still apparently have less sex than some officially seperated couples I know.

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Member # 30498
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DP - tough time for you so sending hugs and good energy. You are moving forward despite the crap being thrown at you which is commendable. I am so sorry about your friend. Please know that you SI friends have you in mind even if your WW is off in fairyland. Peace to you and your kids.

Hugs to all The Tribe today as well.


Married 25 years now divorced.
D-Day: 20/11/10
Me: 48.5 plus 10% GST
Him: mental age 6 (apologies to all 6 year olds)
Betrayal: Who cares anymore?

Posts: 1073 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Adelaide, South Australia
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Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, December 1st (Thursday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

M3 - I hope you got thru this day ok. How are you generally? Is the house still up for sale? How are you and WH getting along? All I seem to notice from your posts is about how great baby Paddy is doing (which is great!)

Deep: Sorry you are having such a rough time. It's beyond difficult when you can't get away from your W & reminders of the A linger, then add all of this other stuff, well, all I can say is that I will be thinking of you and hope you get through this ok. If you run into a bad patch, just think: "What would Kipper do?" Lol

Ats: Had NO idea you told WW you wanted to divorce. I'm going to have to re-read past posts before I say anything more than stating my confusion as to attending MC. I assume that you are conflicted.

we still apparently have less sex than some officially seperated couples I know

Really? Hmmm.... seems strange, lol. I'm no role model, mind you!

I talked to a good friend today who really put everything in perspective for me. There's just no way I'm not going to get hurt by him again. This was reflected in my approach to X today. I must say he remained calm, answered my 2000 questions about his latest 4 months sex romp with OW, and told me that if I didn't want to try it, we could try it another time.

Going out with my girlfriends tomorrow night. Much needed.

Peace to all.

Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Default  Posted: 6:17 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Short vent
[ETA: Actually not short at all. Long-ass whiney vent]

Mr. STBXNell comes home today. That was my first thought this morning. Then I thought, "oh, fuck." I hate that THIS is what my M became, and that D is the only way forward. I hate that I will be tearing apart my Boyos' family. I hate that WH either wouldn't or couldn't do the bare minimum to make himself a safe person for me. I hate that I am either going to have to date (yuck) or be alone for the rest of my life (exactly the same level of yuck). I hate that my entire life is one big question mark, except the sucky stuff, like I am going to be 40yo single mother of two rambuctious Boyos (every single man's dream date, line starts here), my Boyos are going to suffer, my finances are going to take a huge hit for a very long time if not forever, I am 1,000+ miles away from my family and closest friends AND I am still going to have to deal with Mr. STBXNell and his crap decisions for the rest of my natural life, albeit from a distance. Plus, I forgot to do something very important for the fucking head of the company before THANKSGIVING and woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat about it. Thanks, brain. Go ahead and kick in five days late. My own fucking memory is sabotaging me. I hate this whole big, nasty, mean, ugly, lonely, shitty mess, and by mess I mean "my life."

In other words, FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would ask for hugs, but really, who the fuck wants to hug THAT? Yeezus. You know what, I'm asking for hugs anyway.

Thanks, tribe. Love ya. Nell out.

[This message edited by ImNellNow at 6:18 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
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Default  Posted: 7:05 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nell... I think you are in for some very good times ahead. All those fun good feelings that come with finding someone new. Dating can be very good if you put yourself other there. Experiencing new restaurants, new discussions, new adventures. I am telling you, men will want your hot body, your hot personality, and you are so pretty. Men will want to strut their stuff to show you how great they are as a man. It’s gonna be fun.

Plus! The feelings that come with accomplishment. Your career can take off and you can be rich with not only money, but with knowing you can life your life successfully without any dependence on anyone! It is a great feeling! oh heck, everyone forgets to do stuff at work. Funny how I do the same thing when I

Honest.. Form that plan! You can do it.
- I need $x amount to live on
- I prepare my resume (1 month)
- I will apply for one job everyday
- I will recieve $x amount when I D for child support.
- I will get back in fighting shape and seek a new relationship
- I will quit smoking
- I will be healthy.

ATS.. good luck with the new job.. sounds like you are in the final stretch... In my prayers.

Anyways... Peace be with you all

[This message edited by trynhard at 7:36 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I hear ya sista! Hey - I'm a 42 year old single mom of 4 - including a 3 year old - so u r in a better place than me - it's all relative. Lol.

Yes, it sucks and it's not our fault.

Nell - I'd like to think that this allows me the opportunity to find someone who I'm really compatible with, who I can really be happy with, but I have to say, Tryn, that you are suffering from a bit of "the grass is greener". It's not as easy as you think. Or, at least that's been my experience. I spent a month getting to know someone, was getting excited about it, did really enjoy our talks/texts, etc. only to have him cancel dates (which was understandable to a point, given we both had small kids & we seemed to have conflicting parenting time which made scheduling a challenge) and then basically just poof on me, for no apparent reason.

Dating is hard (not that I would know first hand - but this is what I had been told by my peers) and it's not any easier when you're entering the market with a battered self image & a basket of trust issues.


Sorry Nell that I'm not painting a better picture.

Anyway - flashes of X and OW are coming back now & have now entered my dream space. I basically told X how I was feeling & he says he doesn't think I'm ready to try. That I should go date & when I'm ready, he will still want to try to get back together. I told him to start working on his issues, which he seems to at least acknowledge, for the first time, that he has.

So, I'm canceling the sitter for Sat.

Gotta go be mom now.
Peace out.

Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
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Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


FWIW, I was 30 and FWW was 37 and had two DDs when we M'd. I did not M her despite her being a single Mom, it was a part of who she was and I loved her. Despite the friction through most of our M, one of her DDs and I still have a great relationship. The other DD hates me, but then she is not wild about FWW either.

I do have some conflict about the D. I feel safe that FWW is not going to be involved in another A for the foreseeable future, and she has done a lot of painful work to address her personality issues that led to misperceptions and anger. We have fun when we do things together, she is a good friend. OTOH, she has consistently said that she is not a touchy/cuddly person and never will be, while I have discovered that touch is my primary love language. She is OK with sex once a month or so, or even never. I would like to have sex be 2-4 times a month with other regular touching and contact. I am pursuing D because without the touch and sex, I feel disconnected from the M relationship with FWW. I also have not resolved lingering resentment that she was never fully open about her A activities. She has only told me what she chose to, based on what she thought I wanted to hear. Not very deeply buried are suspicions that there is another big shoe or two out there waiting to drop some day.

I have no expectations that leaving my M will lead to an ideal relationship with someone else. That would be a possibility, but I am not counting on it. The phrase “sacrifice for our children” comes to mind too. IF FWW and I stay together for the next 4 years, then there is enough money to get both DSs through college. So is living with a friend who is often a fun roommate so awful if it helps better launch my boys into life? Finally, the reality of aging is that at some point sex will become less of an issue for me. My sex drive (and physical ability) at 50 is clearly less than at 30 or even 40. It is entirely possible that by the time I ever found a new relationship, I would be taking pills to be able to perform. Still, I would hope that there would be other touching and contact.

I do believe that we chose our M partners to address unfinished work from our childhoods. I believe that over the last 5 years I have finished much of my work. Yes, some of them were painfully earned lessons, but being M’d to FWW has allowed me to complete that developmental work. Now, don’t I owe the same opportunity to FWW? She is completing very significant work from her childhood, and I am a little ashamed to walk away from her while she is still working. Finally, the A’s and 4 OM (that I know of) lurk in the background. She flirted and was more erotic with them than she has been with me in 20 years. She had sex more often with them then she does now with me. She was happier (albeit, not in a healthy way) with them than she is with me. I try to focus that she has chosen to stay with me, but when she so calmly accepts D, it makes me wonder if she is just letting me do what she wants by pursuing the D.


FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. I value all input even when it hurts. Let's face it, it all hurts!!

My H does have a legitimate ED problem. We've learned to work with it. Without getting too graphic, complete erection is not necessary for completing the act orally or manually. Does this mean he didn't have more encounters, absolutely not. I just know how sex works with him and how to achieve his "end" most times. He has been on heart meds for about 17 years which has caused this problem. We tried cialis and it worked somewhat but it wasn't covered by insurance and very costly, which isn't in our budget.

I suggested the polygraph yesterday after making a phone call and getting the details, pricing, etc. He said he had no problem with it. Again, very $$$$.

He is very proactive with his IC, and we also go to MC. Unfortunately, the MC'r has been out on medical leave so our next appt is Dec 12. We were going once a week, haven't gone in a month.

He is "searching" for his answer. Of course what answer could satisfy any of this. WTF happened to him 4 years ago? We did have a traumatic life event happen in 2006. My daughter (from previous marriage) reconciled with an exboyfriend. Long story short, while we were on family vacation, he dove in our pool, broke his neck, lawsuit followed, he is a quadrapelegic. I started temp custody battle with drug addicted daughter to get my grandchild around the same time. She has been a problem all of her life, very difficult to deal with. There were a lot of unhappy times because of her. She betrayed us terribly after we tried to help her over and over again. We were the bad guys. All of this was very stressful on our family but never on our marriage. We were always "on the same page" about it. Or so I thought. He says he didn't tell me how he really felt because she was my daughter and there weren't any other options. He was very resentful towards her and the quality time she took away from us. I knew it stressed both of us out but I didn't know he harbored the intense feelings. He seemed happy and we had a good life despite my daughter. I asked him if he vented to these women about it. He said no. He kept it all in. Did he tell a lot of people about my daughter and her ongoing and neverending problems? Yes he did he said. But not the extent of his feelings, he kept that inside.

Again, his actions WRONG!!!!! But was he trying to "escape" with what he thought were harmless flirty emails never realizing the slippery slope he would go down?? Again, makes him weak.

Thoughts?? Anyone have stepchildren issues like this??

Me/BS, 53 Him/WS, 49 Dday Aug 2011
Us - Reconciling, married 20 years
3 kids DD29, DS18, DS15

This is a really short ugly chapter in a really long great book.

Posts: 1429 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: CT
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Member # 33287
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi All,

I have lurked on the LTA forum for awhile and Gen, R, BS Q for W trying to gain as much insicht as possible. I also posted the below on the R forum.

I think there is a lot I can learn from your experience since my WW had a 2+ y A. At least it will continue to inspire my own self reflection and help in my attempt to regain an accurate view of reality.


Nearly six months out from DDay and things have been going pretty well. We go to MC weekly and WW goes to same C for IC weekly as well. On DDay, WW shared all the “facts” and we had a good Q&A discussion in September. Since then we had not addressed the A directly due to the pace of life with three active teens until last night.

Here are some of the things I would appreciate your feedback.

At our MC session, I asked her why she sent AP photos the first time. WW said she did not recall what the photos were (she told me in Sep, two – her eyes and her breasts). Why those? Because she thought they were attractive. I told her she was avoiding facing her choices (emotionally hones). WW: I am not avoiding anything. I just have trouble getting in touch with my feelings. Same thing?

Why? Because the A was like a drug and she kept it going for the high. OK I can understand that from other posts / healing library. WW thinks this is all that needs to be known and I want her to reflect and understand why she needed this “drug”.

WW: It was exciting. It kept me busy. It made me feel sexy. It was fun! This is the same response WW gave IC immediately after DDay.

WW: It just happened. I was not looking for it. I was unhappy. I did not like you. The kids were mean to me. So I ask what is different today? WW: I am different; you are different (not really, only crumpled, torn and mutilated by her A).

WW: I understand your concerns about another possible A. I have learned my lesson and do not want to go through this again. OK, sincere and genuine but OMG she chose to have a 2+ yr A. Does anyone really need to have an A to learn that they shouldn’t?

WW: I have changed my priorities. This morning I asked her to explain what she meant. She got upset and said if she can’t share her ‘feelings’ without me questioning them then she won’t share them. Huh?

So though we have covered a lot in the past five months and our relationship is going pretty well, I do not feel WW has done the self reflection to understand WHY she chose to have an A AND understand WHY she chooses R today. There is no question in my heart that I love her and have told her so but I need the answers to both to continue in our M.

Any comments / advice?

BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well Ladies...

Remember the ole desire builders... lol

- Affirmation
- Positive attitude
- “Present and Future” Focused
- Communication
- Cooperative attitude
- Forgiveness
- Affection
- Positive “self Talk”
- Change
- Reliability
- Romance
- Prayer

Now allgood, you must have had some good feelings during the last attempt? Huh? Reject must be expected too. You are going to reject a few, they are going to reject you. But heck, someone will come along if you want that to happen. You're a filly just out of the gate not even a tenth of a mile around the track!

Seems to me that good things happen when you least expect them anyway...

As for Iwant making progress.. How good did you feel when those grades came out? Pretty good huh?

ATS... I can assure you, 50 does not have to stop your sex drive. When you are with someone fun, pays attention to you, gives you affirmation, you forgive them, your feelings are pretty good. You know my struggles...

I was listening to sirus radio about a guy to teaches people how to cheat on spouses. The do's and don'ts. He said, "sex only five times, anything after that becomes emotional." No kidding dumb shit. So... I say you and your W needs to practice once a week. Agree once a week. It's been working for me. My deal is it's always me to start things but it's always been that way anyway. Plus, I listen the fine ladies on this board. Dip's at 60 and he's at it all the time!

Twigs323.. Welcome to our group. "harmless flirty" is against my own boundaries. If my W wants to flirt, that is ok by me, but it will be without me. I will tell her that when she was firting with so and so, it made me feel a drop in my stomach, nervous and negative thoughts pour in my head. I feel what I feel. Then it is up to our spouses to STOP IT. I am not afraid to leave either.

[This message edited by trynhard at 11:05 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Does anyone really need to have an A to learn that they shouldn’t?

You know, hope and change, when I was in high school, I jumped off a cliff into the Susquehanna River just because all my friends did. Of course, I was the only one who got hurt....

I have another friend who did the same thing -- and we didn't meet until we were 31!

I'm Ok. The house is not on the market, but it will be again after the holidays. We will move out first. It was too stressful to try to sell it and work here and pick up after the kids, etc.
So, we're going to move out and have it staged and rent another place until it sells.

I'm pretty excited about it. My father likes to call me to crap all over the idea on a regular basis, except when he's here helping out with the kids. Ugh.

BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I agree that your WW still has much work to do.

WW: I am not avoiding anything. I just have trouble getting in touch with my feelings.

Why does she have trouble getting in touch with her feelings? Is she suppressing her true feelings? When she becomes angry, how does she know why she is angry is she is not aware of her feelings? Anger is often the expression of other feelings.

Why? Because the A was like a drug and she kept it going for the high.

Why did she need or want the high of a drug in her life?

WW: It was exciting. It kept me busy. It made me feel sexy. It was fun!

Why did she need this external attention and excitement? If she has free time on her hands has she considered a job, or spending more time with the kids? Why did she need external attention to feel sexy? What part of cheating with OM, lying to your BS, risking your children’s’ family, and sneaking around for sex was fun?

WW: It just happened.

No, she flirted and enjoyed the attention. She made it known that she was available. At some point she unzipped her clothes, removed her undergarments, and touched the OM. These things did not just happen. She was trying to fulfill a need within herself. What was/is that need?

WW: I understand your concerns about another possible A. I have learned my lesson and do not want to go through this again.

No, she has not learned her lesson. From what she said, she learned that an affair makes her feel sexy, is exciting, and is fun. I would want to go through that again. She needs to find out the why she needed external validation to feel sexy. Why as an adult she was so bothered by her kids being mean that she broke her M vows.

Why did your WW need this external validation? Why was she unable or willing to come to you to explain she needed this validation? Maybe this is related to her not being able to process her feelings. All of these issues needed to be figured out and a plan to resolve them before she truly has learned the lesson.

I suggest that you leave your WW to IC to figure these things out, and stop the MC. Until she has some (most) of these answered, she is not ready to be a participant in MC. While she is working on her, it is an excellent time for you to work on you. One good question for you to work on is why do you still love a woman who subjected you to 8 months of misery, being ignored, being rejected, being criticized? A woman who has not been fully honest with you, who had a 2 year A and now wants to rugsweep and move forward as though all is right in the world? It is OK, in fact I recommend, staying together while you get these things figured out, but to feel love for the unrepentent WS sounds a little co-dependant. Some time spent detatching and focusing on you might really be a healthy thing. Your WW cannot give you many of the answers you seek becasue she does not know why she did what she did, and she has a history of hiding the truth. Ultimately, many of us find there is no rational behavior to understand in the A.

My FWW gave the same excuses. She deserved to be happy, I did not love her, it was exciting, yada, yada. It took her almost a year past dday, and me moving out for a few weeks, for her to decide to work on her issues and that she wanted to stay in the M. She has been in IC for over a year now working through her FOO issues, sAb, and personality traits that fed her mnis-perceptions and clouded her emotional judgement.

Good luck, and do not be in a rush to get to the end of this journey. It is much longer and twisting than you can suspect.


[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:50 AM, December 2nd (Friday)]

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


why she sent AP photos the first time.
Is this really a… WHY THE HELL DID YOU CHEAT question. Let me help you Hopecanchange…

She cheated because of pure selfishness and greed.

h&C, meeting new people, sharing feelings, feeling with touch, and all those things… They feel real good. Not saying you don’t have guilt along with A’s, you do, but that experience is like a drug, it feels good.

An example, Let ‘s say you are at work. A woman that is nice looking to you comes up needing information or whatever. Lot’s of eye candy out in this world, even on this board (we all shared pictures once.. lol). If she leans over you as you explain it, then says something like, I wish I was smart like you. Then proceeds to say your cologne smells good. The next day, same thing, or something like an affirmation again and again. You then have lunch. Talk about families, personal things. Leads to some sexual flirts.. You are going to feel pretty damn good. It then becomes your wiliness, your will power, your morel power, your ethics, and your conscious thoughts to say… NO. (ATS post how to work on themselves.. some people have it, some don't.. most likely FOO taught) Let’s face it, your wife did not have it. It happened. It happened because she was just plain selfish enough to eat the apple. Romance, lust and feelings of touch are very powerful.

After it happens, it’s all downhill. You are now a sorry ass husband.

My advice is to work on YOU. What does that mean? I think you read as much as you can about relationships, love, sex, feelings, hurt, infidelity, boundaries, what it means to be a good husband, happiness… that kind of stuff. Your brief description falls exactly in line with a person in need of Retrouvaille too. Retrouvaille teaches you how to communicate by describing your feelings. And you can teach your wife all the things you learn too.

I always recommend this book first. The Five Languages of Love.

Sure, many question go around in your head. For me, it always boiled down to… Why me? Why us? Why did she do this to me? Go ahead a get all those extras, like, how big was his dick, where, how often, etc… Yes, I think some of that helps to accept, but it won’t stop the hurt.

I know love is a choice. You choose to love someone with touch, affirmation, gifts, services and spend good quality time. Those are all things you force, or unforced, your mind does, to act on.

Heck, I have no idea why your W chooses to still love you. Maybe fear from split assets? Maybe to keep the kids and family together. Maybe because she likes the way you do love her. But I know this, when you love someone, good feeling come when you do it. When you don’t love someone, those good feelings will go away. You can even love someone and still have bad feelings. A couple women that post here on the LTA board have been loving their STBXH with touch, even though they have horrible feelings. It is still loving and the person they are loving feels good when it happens. They even may feel good with it too.

And with all that said, PEOPLE are not always going to be loving and loyal all of the time. That is when you must be wise. Wise to find a person more likely to be loving and loyal. Because what is important in life are friends and family being loving. And that is what you need to see your W work on... being loving and loyal. You can't force her, it needs to be her want. She may think she does it, but reality is, she hasn't a clue.

You need to find a way to re-connect with your W and have some of those same good feelings you did when you got M. It's hard after infidelity. The trust is gone, your pride is gone, your innocence is gone. It takes some time to get all that back.

Welcome to the board and post away! You can help us too ya know. I can honestly say that everyone in our group has contributed toward my R. I thank them all!!!! That’s my opinion.

Peace be with you…

[This message edited by trynhard at 12:16 PM, December 2nd (Friday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Back to offer hugs and caring to all.

I hope yesterday was just a little bump. I read your email (and hers) and wish I had been able to be so nice after DDay. To anyone, really. I was pure teary-eyed venom for quite some time.

I hope all is well today for you, too. Hugs as you work through the grief for your friend and revisit the grief for your mother (and your wife/marriage?). Please be gentle to you. I'm reading "You Are Here" by Thich Nhat Hanh. Well, listening to the book on CD... not technically "reading." Perhaps it will help. It got me through the morning commute, anyway.

Good luck as you travel this part of your journey. Patience is not my strong suit, but you seem to have it in spades. Heard anything about the job yet?

I remember dating well, so it's not like you're telling me anything I don't know. I didn't like it when all my friends were single and the field was wide open; I can't imagine I'm going to like it now. (Sorry, tryn! Thanks for the positive feedback, though.) I do have one up on you... I dated after college for a few years, so if it's like riding a bicycle, I will be okay at it... just not looking forward to it.

Meanwhile, Nogood needs one of those Peanuts adult voice thingies when he talks, so that all you can hear is wah wah wah wah waaaaah. Because that's pretty much the sum total of his words anyway.

I gots no wisdom for you, just hugs.

She has not yet begun to dig. That stuff she said is what every WS says and while it's true, it's like calling the universe "big." Yeah... AAAAAND???... There's so much there. Pick a topic and study it. Or just say "it's big, whaddya want?" and walk away. But I've got to say that one thing sticks in my craw... the "I learned my lesson" crap... really. You had no idea that would hurt anyone before? So now that you KNOW, that's gonna stop you at the next opportunity? Really. Yep, totally believe that one. Aaaab-sooooo-lutely not. Sorry, strikes a nerve because two freaking YEARS after the end of his A, WH's reasons that he will never do it again included (1) he would not want to hurt me and (2) he would be afraid of STDs, specifically AIDS. Uh... yeah. Didn't stop ya before, guessing it won't stop ya next time.

m3 again,
Oh. My. Gawd. So YOU'RE the person every other parent talked about when they said "if all your friends jumped off a cliff...?" That is just so so so unbelievably awesome. I can't wrap my head all the way around it.

Love you guys.

BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
old dipstick
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Default  Posted: 2:43 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Hugs to you, the smokin hot sweet young thing.


It may not be as easy as tryn said but I bet after you get more into the scene it will not be quite as hard as you think it is going to be. Concerning your friend that helped you put things into perspective. This sounds like a good friend and is someone who you need to talk to MORE OFTEN. Sorry for those big letters but I have a good friend who once told me to use those BIG LETTERS.

Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A

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Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

m33.. thanks though I am not sure if you are validating WW comment on learning the lesson or not.

ats.. thanks the questions for WW are spot on.

If she has free time on her hands has she considered a job, or spending more time with the kids?

Ironically, her schedule was FULL. She works 30 hours per week getting off work to pick up the kids from school. Evenings are full of car pools for religous school, soccer, and baseball. (Unfortunately, this is all her responsibility as I no longer drive due to a vision issue)

No, she flirted and enjoyed the attention.

I do not think she flirted initially just friendly with everyone (boundaries) AND she enjoyed the attention when OM pursued her. AND yes, she did make the choices (actions) that led to and became her A.

Maybe this is related to her not being able to process her feelings.

Yes, she has acknowleded her suppressing her feelings has been and is an issue with MC (same as her IC). This is very important to resolve.

I suggest that you leave your WW to IC to figure these things out, and stop the MC.

The MC sessions have primarily been my IC along with EMDR. She attended most of the EMDR sessions and we used some time to address issues I raised. Now, it has been beneficial for us to use as MC so that I can express my thoughts so she understands and "egets it". A process.

One good question for you to work on is why do you still love a woman who ...

Yes, I have reflected on this deeply. At DDay#2, she laid it all out covering all the nasty deeds. She consoled me over the next two weeks as I wnet through the deepest grief. Then the defensiveness started. In September I had enough. Told her I was ready to move on (D) and was ready to move that weekend as we wer on such different levels. It was her choice: either meet me on my level, accept responsibility for your A and choices, and work towards repairing the destruction. She go it and began to show true sorrow and remorse. Since then she has been supportive and understanding to me.

As to why I still love her, there are so many reasons. Yet, even though I still love her, I will not stay in our M unless she is doing the work on her issues.

A woman who has not been fully honest with you, who had a 2 year A and now wants to rugsweep and move forward as though all is right in the world?

She recognizes my pain. She is making efforts. Though, emotionally she has great difficulty directly facing what she has done. That is hard but she needs to do it.

WW cannot give you many of the answers you seek becasue she does not know why she did what she did, and she has a history of hiding the truth.

Spot on!


why she sent AP photos the first time.
Is this really a… WHY THE HELL DID YOU CHEAT question.

I was actually commenting on how ridiculous her response was "they were attractive". Uh no, you wanted to seduce him.

It happened because she was just plain selfish enough to eat the apple. Romance, lust and feelings of touch are very powerful.

And really it is all as simple as that. Ugh!

I know love is a choice. You choose to love someone with touch, affirmation, gifts, services and spend good quality time. Those are all things you force, or unforced, your mind does, to act on.

I know this, when you love someone, good feeling come when you do it. When you don’t love someone, those good feelings will go away.

Well said. Love is a verb.

You need to find a way to re-connect with your W and have some of those same good feelings you did when you got M.

We are both working on it.

Nell.. well said.

All.. thanks for your input and support. I will work throuh all the muck and make it through it. And SI has been a very big part of it. Hope all have a great weekend.

BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hope you got through your 'antiversary' date ok.
Your email to the OW was very kind...much kinder than I would have been! never told the OW's BH about the LTA?????

it's not too late to tell him.
I do not believe that the OW told him the truth.

It's so common to read that there is a family crisis, health issue or worse during the time of the LTA or preceding the LTA.
For many men especially the affair is a way of escaping the reality of their every day life.

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 11:37 PM, December 2nd (Friday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I made a long reply to everyone, and *poof* it was gone.

{{{{M3}}}}} Sorry about Dday anti-anniversary.
As I was reading your responses to OW, I felt like crying. You were betrayed sooo very deeply, not only by WH, but by someone you felt was your friend.
It's amazing how you were trying to console HER!!!
I really pray that you are concentrating on YOU. Baby Paddy takes after her mother. She is strong and a fighter.

Nell: You are sounding more and more like you again. I loved your comment about "Mommie Dearest"! LOL. I do understand about your feelings about WH coming back home. In so many ways, we wish that they could just disappear so we can heal. In D/S forum they often say "NC = no new hurts". It's so hard when you have to deal with WH for the rest of your life in one way or another.
I do promise you, Nell, it does get easier as time goes by. It does take a long time, unfortunately.

Allgood: Keep your appt. with your friend to go out tomorrow night. You need some time for yourself and not just be Mama Allgood who happens to be a lawyer. KWIM? I made the mistake of focusing on just going to work and focusing on my kids, and forgot about me.

Ellejay: I know it's so hard to have to sit there with WH at that parents' function. I know that you know that you will have to act appropriately for you kids, but it does still hurt. Don't worry, let WH make an ass of himself by himself. It no longer has any reflection on you. As time goes by, these functions will get easier. Sometimes it is stil hard after many years. Have support IRL, and vent here.

Miracle, you are often on my mind, and I'm so happy and proud of you. Keep going!!!

Tryn: Thank you!! I copied and pasted your reply in my journal. I really appreciate it. Your advice shows you were really "listening" to me all this time and truly understand what I've been through and where I need to go.
There are little ways that I know I'm improving. Like just the simple Christmas decorating. Usually I view it as a chore that I do alone, but I'm trying to change my attitude as enjoying the process and getting the DS's involved and not worrying about it being perfect or not.

I think I'm starting to allow myself to be me. I have all of the tribe to thank for this too.

Isn't it crazy that I have always accepted people for the way they were, good and bad points, and yet never expected anyone to accept me that way too? Thank you all.

As Miracle says, this is a process, a long road. We do have to work on ourselves and I'm finally understanding what that means. I think a lot of us when we are first traumatized by the LTA work on keeping the status quo...we were used to that. We want to keep the marriage. There is so much upheaval in our thoughts, memories, what we thought was real. We are hanging on for dear life. We tend to focus on the WS.

But, the advice to start focusing on ourselves doesn't mean that we are selfish and are going out and spending money left and right. It means that we have to look after US. Heal ourselves, find out what is going on in ourselves and not focus and be co dependent on the WS.

I'm sorry, but I feel that a lot of us have/had fallen into co-dependent tendencies. And that hurts ourselves.

Hugs to all the tribe. Welcome newbies.

I want to reread the boards to make more comments, my computer has not been cooperating lately.


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