Deep: keep hanging in there. It's next to impossible to stay when the WS is still in contact with the OP. When NPD was here, I saw (after he left) that he was calling OW several times a day for a total of over an hour, and yet claims up and down he doesn't love her. Staying together because of the kids and finances is living hell. I hope you are seeing an IC. After 2 years, I'm finally getting to a point that I may be ready to start moving on and not be scared to death and think of alternatives to a living hell. Try to think of all possibilities for your sitch. Be as open as possible to change. I know I have been fighting that, but realizing that I cannot stay in the sitch I'm in and life is too short.
Ats: you said something to the effect that it may not be fair for you to leave after all the work Mrs Ats has done.
I do understand what you are saying. I really do.
You are in a quandary. You know, as well as all of us, the tremendous amount of work Mrs Ats has had to do. She has had tremendous amount of FOO issues to overcome. I know you love her. But are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life for this? You can still be supportive to her and be friends if you D. Who says there are rules for not being friends? Every sitch is different and special.
I know how very very hard it is for you. I don't know if you are still seeing an IC or not, but perhaps you might consider going for a little while to help you with this decision.
Do you want to settle? Do you want to take a chance on finding someone else? Or being alone and peaceful? Or would you feel it may be best to stay with Mrs Ats???
Honestly, Ats, I feel very badly for Mrs. Ats, because she really has tried to overcome her FOO issues and is remorseful for the pain she has caused you.
This may be a case that even though Mrs Ats is not an evil person, actually a good person who is damaged and is trying to be better, it doesn't mean that it is the best thing for you.
You have to decide and I know it is very, very hard.
Swam 2500m & lifted weights & hit the bag (boxing not WW) for an hour.
Nell & Allgood - if they wont date you because of the kids then there yours answer.Me with 4 kids - I would date both of you but not at the same time - I have enough problems
I guess take it slow no need to rush.
Nell big hugs for you
((Tribe)) thinking of you & welcome HC
It happened because she was just plain selfish enough to eat the apple. Romance, lust and feelings of touch are very powerful.
And really it is all as simple as that. Ugh!
It happened because she was just plain selfish enough to eat the apple. Romance, lust and feelings of touch are very powerful.
And really it is all as simple as that. Ugh!
Let me see… ME? Things I did leading up to 8 months post dday, I had S for a week, took my gun and was driving in my car to blow OM head off, maybe even myself, opened new checking, met with an attorney to start D, told my W 2 or 3 times I wanted a D. I physically harmed my W in front of all the neighbors. I should have gone to jail.
As I look at all that today, God only knows why we made it.
All those things I wanted my W to do were making me miserable because I was trying to control her into reading books, seeking IC, wanting more info about everything, acting a certain way towards me, etc. Me wanting my W “fix” herself. Nothing she could do was right.
But I did discover the secret. All those things were just not the solution toward making me happy. She was never going to make me happy. I found out, only I can make myself happy.
You know what makes me happy today? Going fishing. I took fishing up again this summer. Tricking a bass to hit the plastic worm gives me such a thrill. I suppose it reminds me of my childhood joys when I spent so much time with my Dad. I can think when fishing. Enjoy the fresh air. View the beauty of nature.
I credit God, Angels, SI, my reading books, and attending Retrouvaille for changing my life. I am going to share what I know works.
My favorite quote hangs in front of my office… I read it over and over all of the time.
“Happiness is the consequence of personal effort. You fight for it, strive for it, insist upon it, and sometimes even travel around the world looking for it. You have to participate relentlessly in the manifestations of your own blessings. And once you have achieved a state of happiness, you must never become lax about maintaining it. You must make a mighty effort to keep swimming upward into that happiness forever, to stay afloat on top of it.”
― Elizabeth Gilbert, Eat, Pray, Love
The best decision I made through all this was to attend Retrouvaille. I use that method of communication I learn all of the time. I use it with my W, my kids, and at my job. Heck, I use it here too.
I read your post and it gave me some sadness. When I read your post, it was like maybe a Déjà vu feeling.
I made a commitment to myself, I was going to forgive. But heck, I didn’t know how to forgive. I read a few different articles and this book Total Forgiveness by R. T. Kendall. I took to practice that book he wrote. Today, it’s easy to practice forgiving my W. I can honestly say, she is so very loving to me. I am really amazed at how good my relationship is going. It’s almost too good. Sure, I still battle the memory demons and get a little insecure.
Anyways, Retrouvaille taught me what a healthy relationship is all about. I know it opened her eyes too. It started her on her own journey to forgive herself. She's not there yet.
I have placed most on graphs, charts, and bullet points in my journal. You can check it out. No lectures today! Lol…
Hey DP... so, what is your next step? Seems to me you are not only deep in purple but deep in thoughts about your plans. I'm sure given the new job you are about ready for the next step.
Hey all... peace out and Geaux Tigers...
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:46 AM, December 3rd (Saturday)]
Yes, I am responsible for my own happiness. Always have been and I should do the things and be with the people that bring me joy. So if my WW cannot do that then I need to make a choice just as she chose to give her affection, attention and time to her AP.
Yes, a much much better season than the tx aggies. And the fall back(WW) team Gators has fallen on hard times. So, ok Geaux Tigers...
All.. codependence is mentioned throughout the treads. How do you see codependence? First heard the term in the late 90s when I was trying to help my brother overcome his various problems and he was in rehab. Counselor labled everyone there supporting the patient as a "codependent". Utter BS. I was there and had been trying to help my brother address his problems. My self worth, happiness, etc. was not tied to his failings or recovery. However, It was sad to see him suffer (from his own actions). So, I met my wife man years ago. We became close friends and then formed an incredble bond that led to our M. She had numerous qualities which I admired and I chose to ask her to be my wife and she chose me to make me her husband. We enjoyed each other and shared our joys and pains. Does that make me codependent?
I would appreciate your views on what is oodepency.
Trying to bring humour back into my life bit by bit and to look on the bright side and be grateful for all the good things etc etc, so sorry for the whine. I just can't keep it up anymore.
Sunny here in Adelaide today, my D is competing in an athletic event today so gotta put the enthusiastic parental hat on.
Hugs to all.
I'm sure they think they are helping. Sigh.
I triggered bad last night. We were at a work party, and I was freaking out.
Since fWH worked with OW, we spent hours together at these parties over the years, and now I know how much of an idiot I must have looked like then. :( She doesn't work there anymore, thank god, but it was still hard to go.
And hard to be in a room full of drunk right-out-of-college girls since that's the age she was when it started.
We decided to make a real date of the party and got a hotel for the night away from the kids and mom and everything. That turned into another mess. We haven't spent a night alone in a hotel in over 7 years, but he took OW to Vegas and on another business trip. Again. ...
Ended up being a miserable night, me crying and him not really "getting" why I was upset when 1)she wasn't there, 2)he isn't going to do anything with any of those new drunk girls and 3) he was in this hotel with me now, and I should just focus on that.
But I couldn't.
Today went better after we woke up, but still.
I hate every single piece of this shitty situation. I hate that I look at the world now through these jaded eyes. I hate that I can't just go and have fun.
Reading but no time to post.
BIG HUGS to all
BIG HUGS to all
BIG HUGS to all
BIG HUGS to all
Laura - You must be frantic with end of year things. So thinking of you.
welcome hope and change....i think you have gotten quite good advice from tryn and ats....
you sound very put together btw......very sound head upon your body...not always easy when dealing with this crap....its very easy to get lost in ones pain and finding your way out can sometimes feel like an impossible task....and task it is
the only thing i think i can add is that your ww's and your ic need to be diff then the mc....conflict of interest...what may be best for one may not be whats best for the marriage so to speak and its hard to be able to tell someon what they have to do to heal a marriage when that person has to fix themselves first....
some ws's are in a position that they can do both and then there are some that simply cannot...the emotional shit that they need to shovel can be overwhelming to the point that they become quite literally buried in shit...
ellejay: i am so sorry for all your pain...it sucks when you cant get away from it....i think you need to tell each of these idiots that you are not interested in what they have to say if your ws is the subject
nell: its amazing how much peace you can feel when they aren't around or expected....i dont get that luxury too often, and i revel in it when i can....
allgood: hon, he is not ready to date you....he's got lots to do before you should ever consider it....and if he is not willing to do meet certain demands then i think you need to stick to your guns or you will be miserable constantly waiting for the shoe to drop...he needs to "see" to "get it" for you to ever find peace with him...and part of his "getting it" is acknowledging all of his behavior, what its done to you to your marriage...he can't change what he refuses to acknowledge and he would have to demonstrate that he is more then willing to be subject to whatever you need to dish out...because if he really gets it he would realize that you need to get it out....that you need to feel it to heal it
honest: i want you to do yourself a favor..in your journal on the top of all the pages you have to yet to write upon write the words
"npd has shown me who he is, BELIEVE HIM"...."and he WILL ALWAYS be who he has shown me he is"
and read it everyday, especially when he comes back....i think you are strong enough to do what you need to do now....i think you need to put some action to it though....baby steps cause i dont think you can go all out, but i do believe you can take those little steps...first step...no more sex with him....number 3 is a comin and i dont think npd is into protection....and you never know what number 2 may be up to either....no more sex....time to detach...and i dont think you are strong enough to use him for sex if thats your plan...
m3: you amaze me...youhave such a huge capacity to love others, even when they have hurt you beyond measure....you rock woman, you truly rock, even if you were that person jumping off of brdges...
dp: you sound like you too are taking some steps...
all this talk about steps reminds me of that song from rudolph..."just put one step in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking out the door"...love that song
ats: my gosh i am in awe of your words these days, and i feel so sorry for your pain...i wish mrs ats could be the woman you need her to be...or perhaps at this time you may need to let go your expectations and either she will step up and suprise you or you will decide to move on....
expectations: i still struggle with this one greatly, try as i might i can't seem to stop at time "expecting" pfm to ever get it which i KNOW he can't but that doesnt seem to stop me from expecting if that makes any sense....
i am getting better though at recognizing the times i expect....there are so many times i expect certain behavior from him and am always angry when it isnt what i think it should be....i KNOW WHO HE IS...he has shown me who he is over and over and i really do believe him....so why do i still have expectations???? even normal ones i cannot have....
a couple of weeks ago i was in trouble with my car...serious could get killed trouble and his reaction totally pissed me off....knowing i was in trouble he went into a alledged meeting with his boss without his phone...and i tried to call him...just the fact that i tried to call him (i never call him unless its emergent)..he was not available and it took him a while to call me back....
shit like that i still expect...i expect that when i am in trouble, serious trouble i should be able to call him....once again pfm is showing me who he is....i need to believe this part of who he is too!!!
I suggested the polygraph yesterday after making a phone call and getting the details, pricing, etc. He said he had no problem with it. Again, very $$$$.
i have mixed feelings on poly's...pfm took one, but he took it 9 months later and i think pfm had already begun to believe his lies....he passed the test, but i didn't believe the results for many reasons which i will not go into...
however had he taken it immediately when i first asked him too and passed i probably would have believed him and the results.....
so this is what i say....if you will believe the results whatever the results show....go for it and give yourself the peace of mind...worth all those $signs and then some....and it might possible save your marriage..which is cheaper then a "d"....
if you will not believe the results save your money
i think its both really really cool and really really uncool that you make excuses for what he did....cool in the fact that you are trying to understand his perspective, putting yourself in his shoes so to speak and truly understanding his motives...uncool because there is no reason, no excuse for what he did...and that is something he would have to acknowledge for you to get completely past it....otherwise who is to say that he wouldn't come up with another reason or excuse another day in the future.....you cant change what you do not acknowledge..and he needs to aknowledge that no matter what issues there are, turning to another is wrong always was and will always be..
(((wye))) lots and lots of hugs.....i hope you have someone irl that can wrap their arms around you and just hold you tight....which is what i am doing for you now in computerland.....
miracle house: pfm continues to show me who he is, not just with the car and i am believing more and more...and trying to expect less and less.....BUT demanding more and more....there are certain things i am entitled to and he can no longer stop me or influence those decisions....so i am taking a stand for me and i am standing super straight, super tall and dammit i look good doin it!!!
H&c -- I don't think your WW learned her lesson from the sound of it; maybe because she didn't get a concussion?
Ah, my friends -- very cool things for me -- I discovered that the owner of one of the homes I'm considering buying is willing to rent it -- and also to let me have input in the final stages of the renovating to get it ready; since I'd already been to see it. And the BEST part? IT HAS A BEACH!!!! and the most amazing view. And renting it is at least $1000 a month cheaper than it would be to buy it. She'll take it off the market for the term of the lease; but at the end she's going to sell it (but maybe to me :) I am SO excited. It gets better -- the daycare I like has spots for Paddy and Sunshine and is $1000 a month less than my babysitter -- I could go on, but y'all get the point.
I just can't wait!
Of course, my Hokies lost, so no trip to Miami for me; but Geaux Tigers! Though WH is unconvinced that a mere semester at LSU qualifies me for a trip to New Orleans. Sigh. We can't really afford it with the impending move anyhow -- but within the next 2 years I want to go to Disney and to London.
Anyway, now that project move is well-formed, it's time to move on to project make myself physicially fabulous. Unlike DP -- I have *not* been doing any exercising -- just a lot of brownie eating and worrying about Paddy and selling the house.
I love you all dearly. And miracle, I am so very proud of you. and tryn -- thanks for reminding me once again of the desirables.
I was annoyed by the using your wife as an excuse not to run for office -- The Slate wrote about it
Anyway, I wound up devising the informal M3 house rules:
No using your spouse as an excuse to wuss out.
There will be no "metrosexual" M3 men.
You must bait your own hook.
Fart jokes are encouraged.
If you are "ascardea" bugs - tough shit.
If you break or sprain something on a major holiday weekend you must suck it up until the next regular workday unless you are in imminent danger of death and/or under the age of 5.
Hooper drives the boat, Chief.
You must be at least seven years old to own a real gun.
Know your sharks. There will be a quiz.
If you don't do your homework and your teacher calls to ask why my answer will be "because he/she was lazy and blew it off - you should fail him/her."
Don't ever take sides with anyone against The Family.
Hugs and kisses every day. Bedtime stories every night.
Unless there's a Zombie movie on. That counts as a bedtime story.
The only thing better than wearing a tutu is wearing TWO tutus, at the same time. (Obviously that one only applies to us ladies.)
Guys should be guys. Ladies should be ladies. Everyone tries hard, no one quits, we love you dearly and would die for you if we had to, and don't be a wuss.
Sorry, I'm in an acid mood this evening.
H&C... I heard something the other day about focusing on the commonalities of your M after infidelity. So, for me, my kids and all we do for them and second is our love for the LSU tigers! We both grew up in Baton Rouge. Tigers did it last night. M3, I forgot you went to LSU!
I am 100% sure I am not codependent on my W. Do you understand what that means? So many around the SI throw that stuff out without really knowing what it is and I have read about codependency many times. I am sure codependency is opposite of narcissism. It is inverted narcissism to unhealthy or destructive levels. That means, you submit, give in, when bullied. You are controlled by the other person. Example: Controlled sometimes by money… If you don’t stay married to me, I will not give you money. (even though the law says they will give you money). Someone codependent has low self-esteem and narcissist people tend to develop relationships with people that are codependent. Someone codependent takes the role as a martyr, poor me, I’m stuck. Or take the position that I cannot leave because what will everyone do if I leave this relations, I am needed. They cannot stand the thought of being alone and are allowing fear to control them.
To me, you are not codependent on you W. You are in a relationship that was once good, and now in misery. Misery because your W made the choice for selfishness and greed, to stop being desirable to you. She needed and wanted to feel good like she once felt. She wanted to feel different, feel things you once had with her. She missed that feeling and could not communicate to you and tell you what she needed. She will say you didn’t listen but that is not true. “I AM GOING TO HAVE A ROMANCE WITH ANOTHER MAN, PERIOD”. Now that is effective communication!
Bottom line is, When you cheat, you stomp on God, your spouse, your family and friends who all witnessed you marriage and partnership. Can your W now handle the shame coming, the regret and guilt? Handling is not so easy. Some people handle by burying it, getting defensive, not admitting the selfishness.
For me, my W had an 8 year both emotional and physical relationship. She admits the selfishness. She admits the sin. When I got that letter came in the mail to me telling about her A, 8 years of lying just wares on your soul. Heck, It all came out. She confessed to it all and even her first physical A back in 1988. My W was fully prepared for me to leave her. She had accepted the end had happened. She thought no way I could forgive, still want her, our marriage. I stayed out of fear at first. I stay today because of our good relationship and everything we have in common. Her OM was an alcoholic, lying, cheating, selfish, money grubbing personal injury ego driven attorney and she was in this relationship long enough to know, he was not “marriage material”. It’s all nutz!!! She “ate the apple” what more do I say.
It sounds like to me, you have partnership not some codependent relationship. Marriages relationship are partnerships. You share things. I depend on my W to wash our cloths because that is her job. She depends on me to mow, trim trees, clean gutters, stain and paint, car maintenance, and write check to pay bills because that is my job. She can do all these things without me and I can do everything without her. It is our choice, not by fears, not controlled and sometimes we do each other’s jobs too. It’s a partnership.
Do you see what I mean?
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:32 AM, December 4th (Sunday)]
Great night last night with FWW volunteering to be the designated driver. We had Key West shrimp washed down with Key West Ale as we watched the boat parade. First time in years we have watched rather than participate. It was interesting to view it from shore.
BTW, FWW and OM used Econo Lodge (he spared no expense ehh?) located where we drive past it on a regular basis. They also stayed together at the hotel where we stay when visiting DS in college.
During her A time, she would set her ringtone for me during the holidays to "You're a Mean One Mr. Grinch" song. She, friends, kids, OM all thought it was a great joke. I am past many of my triggers, but that one still gets under my skin.
iwam, I am just so sorry that pfm cannot be their even as a friend or helper. It must be hard to be the only adult in a relationship and house full of teens/adolescents.
... and now I know how much of an idiot I must have looked like then.
FWW and I do events where others knew of her A and I was in the dark. I used to be really embarrassed and upset at these. I now realize that the shame and embarrassment is all on her. Some of the people I realize were in a difficult position and felt they could not say anything, I forgive them. Others, I will always know them for who they showed me to be. One individual did try to warn me and I saw FWW go off on her. I will always respect that she cared. One thing that helped is that FWW publicly apologized tio me and many of these people for her actions, and for putting them in such an awkward position. Just an idea, but it would be a way for your WS to address the big elephant in the room and declare his allegiance.
My name is atsenaotie and I am (was) a codependant.
I based how I felt (happy, sad, successful) on how I perceived FWW felt. Her emotions were mine. I could do a great thing, but if she was not happy I would feel like a failure. We were rebuilding an old house early in our M. Not my strong suit, but often I would figure out ways to get projects done and put a lot of effort into finsihing them, and they went well. FWW would come home and comment "that is all you did" or "why did you do it that way and not this way", and I would feel like a failure, incompetent. I tended to do the same at work and with my parents. I relied on others to tell me if I was OK.
FWW has this too, much more than me. It is typical of ACOA. For her it is not even how I feel or what I say, but her perception of how I feel. Even now, she can come home while I am working on a project (say connecting 48 strands of x-mas lights to the digital controller in sequence) and if I am quiet and not cheery, she will presume that I am mad at her for something, feel shame or guilt, and begin to withdraw. In the past, her withdraw would trigger guilt in my codependancy and we began the downward spiral. Honestly, it is a wonder our M lasted this long. I can recognize this now, so can FWW to a lesser extant, and break the cycle often.
...so i am taking a stand for me and i am standing super straight, super tall and dammit i look good doin it!!!
AMAZON IWAM, and FWIW I always have presumed you look good doin it.
Thanks for the input. All is always welcome. I'm not giving him excuses for his behavior, never will. He doesn't either. The IC, and MC both talk about no matter what feelings come out, you made a conscious decision to do what you did. My H has been quite vocal about that since day 1.
The polygraph. I only caught him because of sexual emails I saw between him and OW1. He admitted to the actual PA, there was no proof of it. Then admitted to OW2 (7 encounters in all) At this point, I don't think he has much to lie about. We've gone over it so many times. His remorse, declarations of love, profuse and constant apologies over the past 3 months speak volumes. He is totally transparent and doesn't want to be away from me. He looks back at his actions and is totally disgusted with himself and cries. There is absolutely no blameshifting. He is a broken man and has lost 25 lbs. He even put a locator on his phone so I can see whereever he is. He is doing (from what I can see) everything right. I think at this point my gut is telling me to "go with it".
It's me that feels differently right now. I love him but not in the same way and he knows it. I go between anger, sadness and being a little okay. I'm best when I'm around my kids. He believes he has a problem with his feelings and issues and wants to continue to explore it in IC. All in all very proactive.
This is a really short ugly chapter in a really long great book.
tryn... yes, it is nutz!
Has anyone got a basement or an attic I can move into for a couple of years until this is all over? Preferably with black out on the windows.
Have a good day everyone, wherever you are.
Miracle & Dip: I agree with everything you said. I'm just still reeling from the mini-trauma imposed by seeing nude pics of OW on X's phone & learning that he ran right back to her as soon as he moved out (at least that's what he says).
And so, I find myself not giving an f about much in terms of my love life for the moment. I'm not dating anyone, so who cares if I let X give this a shot. I do realize that I am putting myself in a situation to get hurt again. I waffle between the two feelings.
I haven't jumped back into trying to save our M. I haven't made any effort to be closer or more receptive to X and that is because I would rather be alone than get hurt again.
In any event, we did go out Sat night & I really did not enjoy myself. It was too soon from last week's trauma and you just cannot take 2 people with a shitload of emotional damage and hurt feelings and give them a few drinks and have it turn out well.
I own my share of voicing my sentiments about OW - shouldn't have done it while we were out - made me look pretty insecure and juvenile-and it always just results in more hurt feelings for me as he will just never agree with me when it comes to OW. She's the f-n bomb.
So, where we landed is that he still wants to try to work it out and I'm supposed to come up with some plan to fix his dysfunctional ass. It is huge that he admits that he needs to change. I am curious, tho, as to what he thinks he needs to change. If history serves as any predictor of the future, what he thinks needs to change will probably be about the most superficial things needed.
Ok. Got to go.
Have a good day all. Show em who's boss!