he admits that he needs to change
You're a tough cookie. I know the blackout windows fantasy will ebb. Go ahead and lick your wounds behind your blackout windowshades and then go back out there and strut your bad self in front of everyone else! Elsewhere in the LTA house we all picked badass characters. I'm Hit Girl (from the movie Kickass); Laura is Elisabeth (Girl With The Dragon Tattoo)... can't remember who the others chose... anyway... I pull that out every once in a while.
honest, ats, tryn, miracle, m3, h&c, deep, dip, Laura, njgal, UKgirl (wherever you may be), WYE, Twigs, fnf, nofun, strongish, et al... hugs all around.
Thanks, all, for the cyberhugs as they come. Mr. STBXNell woke me half-hour after I fell asleep last night to (a) accuse me of being either cold or ignorant because I put up Christmas decorations, etc., this weekend and then to (b) tell me how sad he is and he doesn't understand why we are divorcing and it is hard for him and him him him. Whatevs. I went back to sleep with only a little trouble and woke up early, thought about waking his ass up and grinned an evil grin before not waking him up.
Must run. Good Monday morning, all!
...what he thinks needs to change ...
Last night we set-up the tree and started decorating it with the lights, and I experienced an example of the emotional demons still lying in wait. I could feel the anxiety as I started stinging up the lights. Me a 5’10” 225# guy feeling anxiety putting up lights.
Historically I quit helping set up the tree rather than have FWW tell me how I did everything wrong. did not put the lights on right, ornaments in the wrong places, etc. I would rather have her call me lazy for not helping than the constant badgering. It is not that I don't do this stuff OK, I have 1st place awards for winning in boat parades, and our yard has made the newspapers in the past.
I stopped and told her about my anxiety. FWW owned her past attitude and told me she was no longer that person who needed things done just so, that it always looked good regardless. She then invited me to get a drink and let her do most of the wrapping after I got the highest part started.
I still get these anxiety tremors from time to time when activities trigger, and I am amazed and disappointed that for the better part of 20 years I let a petite little wife berate me like she did. I know that FWW perceived that I did not like her based on her interpretation of my behavior, but I have clear memories of cabinet doors being slammed, her yelling, and critical statements about me, my family, my work. As much as I wanted to fire back I knew that I could not hit her, and if I said what I felt I was worried it would destroy her emotionally.
It is really hard to just accept that was then, this is now, and forget all of that and move forward.
The weekend got better. Still dealing with all the mom stuff, plus 2 sick kids now. Hopefully I'll get to catching up on posts today.
Hope you all have a great day!
so who cares if I let X give this a shot.
I see nothing wrong in my mind to give it another shot.. another risk. Hurt is a given in life more will come your way no matter you want it or not.
I'm supposed to come up with some plan to fix his dysfunctional ass.
It really takes him… not to want to the person he was. I think this commitment could be the highest value he can say to you. He has to change in that way. "I don’t want to be one of those cheating husbands." Sounds like he is trying to tell you this. Maybe he means it this time, maybe not. Only a second chance will tell. But nothing wrong with not being a cheat and both be good partners too in other areas.
You are attracted to him. He must have many great personality characteristics you like about him. He just needs to fix a few things.
Allgood, seems to me you have been using sex as some sort of anesthetic. Maybe before any more sex, you should both agree to discuss how you both are doing, feeling about each other. Make sure any sex come after this talking. Don’t use it as a drug, but use it as a mean for closeness. This area has been a huge battle for me. When I say sex is huge for me right now in me becoming healthy, I mean it. It’s very confusing is so many ways. IMO, offering sex, accepting sex and having sex, to me is the most important part in any relationship. To fake sex in any part is not good. You read about the conflict both ats and I have… sex is validating something in a man.
I think keeping your family together is worth you getting hurt again. I can give you all the reasons if you want. Maybe you both start with both writing down boundaries for each other.
A key boundary for you might be to forgive. You know what forgiveness is and how to do it. It’s hard as hell not to slap him in the face with… YOU CHEATER. It takes a long time to forgive. I have been practicing it for years now, not one year, but two and sometimes shit just comes out. You cannot have a healthy relationship without this. It is a choice, it is not as some around her say bury it.. it is a choice not to slap him with it.
Your feelings are what they are. They will always be. You can do things that change feelings but I think of Dip as my angel too. His message to me is this infidelity hurt stays with you until the day you die. It is how you handle the hurt. It is how you find refuge from the hurt, accept it, and go on with life with some good grill'n.
As for his boundaries.. Well he must know what he needs to do as far as being honest and faithful. So many more need to take place too… Maybe staying out all night, getting too drunk, allowing you to see all and being tranparent.
You R must be different this time and it still take time and work. An IC can be part of it but set some rules.. example, No discussion about cheating unless at the IC or something like that.
Maybe setting new boundaries is a start. My W and I had to write down boundaries in Retrouvaille. Many of our were the same but some are going to be different. Just a written agreement kinda like you S agreement. How hard did you work on that S agreement? work even harder on these boundaries.. and don't allow him just to sign yours like he did the S, he must work his.. maybe you suggest he gets help from a priest, an IC or something.
Anyways.. That’s my input.
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:50 PM, December 5th (Monday)]
Security on his phone?
Funny, very funny.
I appreciate your thoughts and encouragement. You are correct in that my approach has changed. I do not even consider us to be in R, I feel like I'm just in a holding pattern waiting for more information. And, quite frankly, that's all I'm willing to give. This guy is 10 days away from having sex with OW. She broke it off with him, not the other way around. I am a very logical, rational person. Why would it be different this time? That's up to him to prove to me. I'm not doing a damn thing other than pointing him in the right direction. I realize that's not necessarily the healthiest attitude, but I've been there, done that. I don't have it in me to do it again. If he shows me half the effort I put in, then I'll start doing what I need to do. And, of course you are right, the backhanded remarks about the A have got to go...
You are also correct that a reconciliation could mean a lot to my kids. But, they're actually doing really well. I pretty much see the kids as a reason not to reconcile with him unless he's earned it tenfold. I would never put them through another s/d, even though they seem to have gotten through his one ok.
Well, I guess I've gotten used to it and don't know what to do without it. There was a time when I would become more emotional more attached to him in the days after we'd have sex post separation, but now, I see it for what it is. Just sex. And, it doesn't set me back.
I guess that might sound inconsistent with my reaction to seeing the OW pics. I'm still trying to sort that out. Right now all I got is I hate her, hate that he was with her and that it burst my little image of him spending his nights alone pining over me, which kinda made me feel stronger in a demented sort of a way.
Now, I'm confused. But, one thing I'm not confused about is that I am way too pissed off to be forgiving anyone. Sad, but true.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 5:29 PM, December 5th (Monday)]
Your WH had his turn to drive the bus and he drove it into a ditch! So...now you are in the driver's seat.
What do you want for yourself and your children and your WH for that matter?
SOme of my suggestions for a new and improved marriage: no more secrets, total transparency in cell phones, texts, emails, credit cards, etc. A NC letter or phone to the OW immediately. No more boys nights out. No drinking. No parties without his wife.WH has to go to IC to figure out what the heck was going on with him. WH has to agree to go to MC.
Other things might include: more involvement with the kids, helping out at home etc. etc.
Lay it all out for him so that there is no confusion as to what your demands are.
It doesn't really matter 10 days out or whatever. When my Dday happened, I’m sure my W and OM was together less than 10 days and she stopped it. We even HB from that day for about 2 months.
I think we both know you cannot have sex with the same person over and over without having some sort of connected feelings. Usually, sex without some sort of intimate talking is just enough to keep that bond… And opposite, you will stop being connected and the bond will end when you stop having sex.
You allowing him to love you with touch while S was very confusing to him. You have an official document that says you are ending you M, yet having sex. Allgood, I am not trying to beat you up over this. From the bottom of my soul, you know I do care for you and want you to be happy. What I believe is that despite you acting like you are ending it, you are not. I believe ending a M is as hard a choice anyone can make in life. I have failed many times in life but I know that when you do fail, get back up and try and try, success does some. It sounds like you’ve been living in limbo. It’s time to get out.
You are one powerful woman, a very physically attractive woman, great intelligence, great work ethic by the education, type job and career you have. You are one hell of a good woman in this world. You are a great catch waiting for a good man.
As I look at what our IC did, they were pushing us toward decision, conclusion, toward the end, all need to end so you can move into the future. Our choice was to R. I gave it 100% because I was responsible for only me. I went out on a limb and as much as I want to feel good, make my M work, I took the risk, still take the risk, to know, I have the courage to give a second chance and my W may still cheat again.
If you do give him a chance to R, you can still be S and he can still live in his apartment until your are ready, he is ready. This time, it is going to be different. I agree with njgal, but you cannot force him to want to be sober, you cannot force him to “tow the line”, it must come because he wants too. This means, he does not want to live married but a single life. It’s got to come from within him, you cannot just force him to want it.
Maybe being wise with him would be to both agree on things that will help you be intimate again. I think something you need to decide what boundaries you need.
Let me give you some examples of some of mine.
- I will not be in a relationship where my W needs a man for a best friend. (texting, meeting for lunch, drinks, etc)
- I will not be in a relationship where my W goes out “single” and regularly to places like bars or singles type atmospheres.
- I will not be in relationship where I am criticized.
- I will not be in a relationship with no romance.
- I will not be in a relationship where I am not forgiven and holds a grudge.
- I will not be in a relationship with someone who does not believe in God.
- I will not be in a relationship that has untrustworthy behaviors, hides, and lies.
- I will confront my W every time she withdrawals from me and do it in constructive ways.
And you know what else? I set these same boundaries for how I treat my W.
My W knows my boundaries because we shared the to each other during Retrouvaille. For me, it now is her choice to not cross my boundaries. If she does I tell her how I feel when she crossed it, and depending on which ones crossed and how often, I am prepared to end my M because I know some people are just good partners in life.
Anyway, I think you both would really benifit from a program like Retrouvaille at this part of your relationship.
I hope my experience and success can help you move forward too… PEACE!
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:03 AM, December 6th (Tuesday)]
You are a great catch waiting for a good man.
I would not spend much time waiting, but if you happen across one while you and your family are enjoying life and each other, so much the better (if that is what you want).
I do agree whole-heartedly with this:
You are one hell of a good woman in this world.
I have been re-reading through part of the library I bought from Amazon in the 2 years post dday. A topic I am seeing more clearly this round is the concept that we attract and are attracted to others with the same degree of mental/emotional health or impairment that we have. Not the same issues, but the same degree of need for further work. I believe that this is true for FWW and me.
The atsenaotie I am now would never tolerate her outbursts, impulsive spending, lack of physical contact, blame-shifting, triangulating our relationship with the children, projecting, or the excuses she provided during her LTAs. But the younger me had learned to avoid conflict, take responsibility for problems, and had not learned how to identify and process my range of emotions. I lived for much of my life trying to make FWW and others happy; trying to be so perfect that FWW, my parents, and others had to like me. My lessons came at a horrible price, and I will always think poorly about the 3 MCs we went to during our M who missed our (FWW’s) underlying problem, but FWW provided the life experience I needed to learn about my range of emotions, to establish boundaries in my personal and professional life, to see the possibility of conflict being productive, and to live within the moment.
FWW too is learning about her mis-perceptions in life, not just with me. She is becoming much more authentic in how she experiences life. Her first H could not provide this opportunity for growth, but I did. When FWW’s Mother died last winter we commented that she never owned her alcoholism or her other issues. She left this world still living in the fantasy she had created, it was not at all authentic. FWW has already surpassed her Mother, and hopefully has many more years of authentic life and personal growth ahead.
I think that these individual and internal struggles are the true healing that must occur for R. Sure, a safe environment with NC and open transparency is necessary in which to do this work, but the healing must come from within. Once healed, it is easy (easier?) to know the correct path to take because we know and better understand ourselves. We can discern the reasons behind the choices we make, and with this clarity I believe we become better at understanding the truth behind the actions of others.
I have never been good at drudging up old feelings, but I know that at X-mas 3 years ago I was trying to be a better husband, and frustrated that my wife was not happy. I had attended IC the previous summer for anxiety arising from what I now know was FWW's A. I was 50# heavier, I was cynical, and I recall experiencing road rage frequently. Two years ago I remember little of the holiday season other than huge pendulum swings and intense fights with FWW and her older DD. X-mas last year was like being happy in a theme park. As I look back it was superficial and had an inauthentic feel to it. The pictures were forced, the discussions were guarded. There was just the very beginning of FWW really owning and beginning to work on her issues. This year will be the most satisfying holiday season I can remember. FWW and I are, I believe, communicating honestly. We are working together. She and I have put each other ahead of family. Our holiday will not be as Norman Rockwell or Disneyish as holidays past, but it is authentic. It is who we are.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:25 AM, December 6th (Tuesday)]
I shared your replies with WW Sunday night (she helped me setup my SI account and occassionally vistis SI and saw my post). She was upset that I shared her comments with 33000 people on the internet. She was more upset that I will not accept "it made me happy", period. Then, she realized there was a void within her and she used the A to fill it!
After some self reflection on her part the next day, we had a very good and open discussion Monday night. Hopefully it is the beggining of her really discovering, facing, and addressing her issues.
I can name that tuen in three notes!
BTW, FWW and OM used Econo Lodge (he spared no expense ehh?)
My W and her AP used an hourly motel (sometimes and I need to ask her which one dropped the coins in the slot). Mostly they used his car. AP gave her no gifts, AP bought her no dinners, AP bought her no drinks! My WW also paid for the condoms (which she used to avoid preganancy and not STDs) Ugh! Sheer stupidity and I am thankful there have been no health issues with WW or myself. The only expense her AP incurred was signing up for texting so that they could have daily contact.
Yeah, Econolodge - 69.95. I think he "splurged" My WW AP did not spend that much in two years.
Yes, it is nutz!
She was upset that I shared her comments with 33000 people on the internet.
Assure her that only a very small number of people (probably hundreds) actually read any given post
My FWW has lurked on SI since shortly after I found it. She initially thought she would find support for her positions that A were half my fault, I needed to get over it and move on, etc. One day when I was on the boat she read for hours, it was one of our turning points. She never registered, and still chides me about my Purple People.
I guess in comparison my FWW's last OM was Daddy Warbucks. He bought her lunch and breakfast often when they met to "go over business". He bought drinks whenever it was appropraite. He upgraded her flights and rooms when travelled together. The only thing he ever gave her she still takes Valtrex for every day.
What I believe is that despite you acting like you are ending it, you are not.
I understand what you are saying and I know that your comments come from a genuine desire to help me.
Ats: you sound really good. I hope you have another awesome holiday this year.
... you cannot have sex with the same person over and over without having some sort of connected feelings. Usually, sex without some sort of intimate talking is just enough to keep that bond… And opposite, you will stop being connected and the bond will end when you stop having sex.
Not telling you that because I'm proud... callously using that guy for sex was one of the shittier things I've ever done to another human being. Just saying that it is possible to have sex with someone you once loved without it leading to more love.
But, allgood, I always regretted doing it.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 1:01 PM, December 6th (Tuesday)]
LOL.. If you have sex with the same person over and over, you have feelings for that person. The feelings are going to be good feelings when you have when skin touches skin. The smells, the temperatures, the feel of hair, the muscles, the movements, it is going to make the brain release chemicals. Your brain likes it, you go back for more because it feels good. If it does not feel good, smell good, feel right in your brain, you don’t go back for more. Only a sociopath can take what you are supposed to feel and have NOTHING. These people are mentally ill, rare and usually in jail.
Oh but for the best love, the best relationship, the best feelings, and the greatest happiness… Nothing can be done half ass… or should I say just with ass… Only all those things you mention must all come together for true happiness.
I had feelings for the sex. It was good stuff. But, as I said, I was young and stupid at the time. Not all enlightened and filled with wisdom as I am today.
Oh but for the best love, the best relationship, the best feelings, and the greatest happiness… Nothing can be done half ass
US population is 300,000,000. This site? 33,000
I suppose her feelings are of shame. Even for strangers to know. It's ego. My W is always worried about what others think. It's been a big struggle for my W. Everyone, our families, kids, friend knows our situation though. She has written me a letter describing her shame. It's something I never want to face. For me, anyone thinks less of my W or me. If they do. I don't give a damn. Let them think away. I like who I am today and who my W is...
My W knows I visit here, but chooses not to look. I don't want her to look because I come to these fine ladies to get advice. I just don't have any women friends to ask.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:41 AM, December 7th (Wednesday)]
Been feeling sad all day, just realized why.
I have been re-reading through part of the library I bought from Amazon in the 2 years post dday.
Screw that, ATS. I've been *selling* mine on Amazon Marketplace to get my moolah back!
ETA -- you know, since I can't get back my "marriage" or any sense of trust in WH or my "friendship" with OW or my oldest DS's best friend, or my fucking PRIDE...
[This message edited by m334455 at 4:40 PM, December 7th (Wednesday)]