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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 6
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, January 8th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Many men derive much of their success from their job and what they do. That's not a bad thing. Some women can as well.

Appreciating an individual achievement and adding that to a "success" bucket has nothing to do with affairs.

My job is not "just a job". It's very important to me and I get a real satisfaction from what I do and how I do it.

It is not the most important thing in my life but it's up there. Deriving "success" from a relationship is not healthy, to me. There are two participants in a relationship and relying on another to provide me with feelings of "success" smacks of being co-dependent.

As far as don't "mother", what does that mean? Comfort? Nurture? Support? I would think those would be very good things and part of a healthy relationship.

If you mean "parent" that's not healthy in any relationship.

Not "challenging" him to do what? Be faithful? Honest? You shouldn't need to do that.

Seems like much generalization and archetypical behavior assigned to a real basic concept. Don't tolerate bad behavior. From anyone including yourself. Not a BS/WS man/woman thing. A healthy/not healthy thing.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, January 8th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My views on integrity have not changed. I don't know what "challenge" means - my H has not changed what he expects of me, since my A had nothing to do with him. We do not parent each other.

I personally feel that success at work has nothing to do with success at home. One is not a reflection of the other. Some careers take time away from family to do well - that is a logistical issue, not a moral one.

My A was a betrayal of my soul. It has nothing to do with my relationship with my H. What it has taught him and me is that he can and will walk away. Work, family, our relationship... all that has not changed.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 10:46 PM, January 8th (Sunday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
leftoolate
♀ Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, January 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Since my affair, I have developed a different view of integrity. I now take it to mean 'whole', as in 'integer'.

The affair was one of the lowest points of my life. Failing to tell the truth for weeks afterwards was the other. Both were logical, if not inevitable, outcomes of my failure to accept and esteem myself as a real and imperfect person. I was afraid of seeing 'the real me', since I was convinced she was a bad person. I knew that this would get me nowhere, but I didn't do anything about it. I hid and avoided the bad parts, and tried to only show others the good parts. That included my husband, up to a point. We did, and do, relate to each other in terms of equality. I'm sure he saw more of the whole me than I ever did, however hard I worked at hiding myself.

I was fragmented, now I'm whole.

In a nutshell, of course...

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 811 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, January 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove,
A healthy man, will have integrity, loyalty, self respect, dedication to family, he has high self esteem and self worth, he is emotionally secure.
Before my A, I would have believed this about myself. During the A, I would have struggled with the situation because I know that I met this definition of a "healthy man" before. Afterward, I think this definition does not encompass all the aspects of what a "healthy man" might be. Some men would possess one of those traits and believe themselves to be healthy, very few men could honestly say they attained all of those traits. Whose definition is this and why should anyone try to reach someone else's ideal?

His success is determined not by his toys or his job, his success is determined by the strength of his relationship with his wife and children, his success on the job merely a reflection, of the success he has at home.
Same as above, some men truly believe that toy's or their job define success. Who's to argue if that is what they believe? What if they have all those toys and their successful job and they happen to be a nice guy too?

A healthy woman should have the same attributes.
Every person should be able to define themselves. Man or woman doesn't matter.

Anything other than this and all you are doing is enabling.
Enabling what? If a woman doesn't have those attributes, is the man enabling her?

Tell him to grow a pair, man up and do what is right and if he is not capable of that at least do what is fair!
Fair to whom? Would leaving my wife prior to my A have been fair to her or my family? So, my wife should have just said "Grow a pair" and I was supposed to immediately fix myself. Even better, I was supposed to realize that there was anything wrong with myself in the first place? Given that I had integrity, was loyal, dedicated to family, was emotionally available, provided security for my family and was an active member of the community, what was there to fix? Turns out, I was woefully underprepared to deal with any of the crap that surfaced during the A. Is it wrong to seek help when you need it?

If, even this is not possible, cut your losses and run.
Some BS will take this advice, others are incapable of cutting and running. Are they at fault for their inability to act? If not, then is the WS at fault for their inability to grow a pair?

You deserve a man not a boy.
Many men with problems in adulthood acquired those problems as children. Those men who are faced with being told to grow a pair by society in general will never be able to do the work to fix themselves later down the road.

I think women today do too much nurturing of their spouses. Set the bar high and hold him accountable to reach it.
What would happen in men adopted that attitude? Aren't they considered jerks?

Don't tell him, nag him, or belittle him. Share with him, your view of what a man is, say this my bar, this is what I need from you as a husband as a father as a man.
Agreed. Communication like this is great, but often doesn't happen. The man has as much responsibility to communicate as the woman. Both sides need to define their view of the other.

I think you will get way better results by treating him as a man than mothering him like a child.
It sounds like an okay statement, but it also sounds like the author is encouraging the woman to say here's the mark, I expect you to reach it, but then give no assistance to the man in trying to reach it or even if they ever attain it.

It is inherent in us to provide, to protect and to care for.
This goes for people in general. It isn't gender specific.

Don't set the bar so low that men will not be challenged by it because you will find yourself doing it all.
This could go both ways.

Set the bar high, hold him accountable to protect the relationship and the home and the children, I assure you he will reach it and you all will be happier for it.
I don't feel so assured by that statement. Living under a "threat" isn't helpful to anyone.

As a Betrayed man and as other Betrayed men on here, had/have many of these characteristics, 99% of them are what women want. They hold themselves accountable.
The BS is not always perfect. Sometimes they are as broken as their WS. It all comes down to a choice that the WS made that brought us all here to SI. That one choice is often the only difference between the betrayed side and the wayward side fence

But as we know, only all too well, ONE does not, a marriage make. And 3 usually spells the death of it.
Agreed

I don't like the quote. But it doesn't fit who I am or my situation at all. It just would not have worked and I likely would not be here if my BW would have adopted that mindset.

As far as integrity before, during and after...I had it before, I fought with myself during, and I have had to reconcile it after. It hasn't changed, it was just lost for a while. Quite honestly, my BW helped me find it again.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
gromit2011
♀ Member
Member # 33650
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, January 9th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks, Baxter. I'm a logical person and I guess like most BS if I can apply some logic to his behavior it makes it slightly easier to deal with.

I think he is fearful of trying to fix it and refuses to face the affair so instead reaches for anything else. It's like he needs justification for not trying and because he hasn't actually got any justification but fear I feel like he uses 'I don't love you anymore' as his reason because who could blame a man for leaving his wife if he didn't love her anymore. People may say, 'Oh thats a shame but if you don't lover her anymore then thats fair enough. It's the right thing to do.'

He's also changed his story as time has gone on about loving me. When I first discovered he'd cheated he said he was very much in love with me when we got married and he loved me when he started his affair and was very happy with our relationship but that he woke up one day and it was like someone 'flicked a switch' and he just didn't love me anymore. Then a few weeks down the line it turned into he'd shut off his feelings in order to cope with the guilt. Then it turned into he didn't love me enough to try. Them it turned to him being 'content' before the A. Then it went on to him not being sure if he loved me when we got married but he didn't cheat so he could leave the relationship. It's like the more time he's had to conjure up any excuse but blaming the A, the worse it gets.

Any further insight would be much appreciated!


Together 4 years
Married June 2011
DDay 8 October 2011
6 week PA
WH claims his 'affair' was nothing to do
with being unhappy in our relationship, it
was just the thrill of trying to lead a double life. Oh, but this means he doesn't

Posts: 124 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: UK
Susannah
♀ Member
Member # 34282
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, January 12th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for WS's specifically related to the men.
I apologize in advance because the question is quite crude.. but here goes.

My husband had a two time fling with his newly divorced female boss. He had sex with her once in a motel room and again in her hot tub and bed. He confessed the entire affair to me and also told me (sorry here comes the crude part)... that he was uable to "achieve an orgasm" with her on either occasion. He said he was so nervous and could not stop thinking about me. He also said she was rather large in that particular area and this contributed to it as well. My question... do you think this is possible ? He never ever had a problem with me and is very sexual. It wouldseem being with someone else would be exciting. I also question why he went back for seconds then. He says he does not know. What do you think? Once again apologies for the crudeness.


ME: 45 and fantastic
Him: 43 the absolute love of my life and destroyer of my heart
Her: praying for Karma to get her
DDay-12/11/11 our 1st year anniversary
GOD, I HATE WHORES.

Posts: 193 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Georgia
MsScarlettOHara
♀ Member
Member # 32715
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, January 12th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question for the WSs here.

My WS just did a 180 on me the day we signed our divorce papers. He has been atrocious for years (see my bio). We signed on Monday for a divorce. That night he had the OW come over to his place and he told her he never wanted to see her again and that he wanted to be with me, packed his things, and is now living with his parents so he can "straighten his life out." (The OW texted me shortly after, so I do believe him regarding talking to her). He's wearing his wedding ring now. Today he set up a counseling session for himself. I told him he needs to make things right in his life first before ever considering asking me to be a part of it again.

I am confused as all get out by his sudden "awakening". Any thoughts, good or bad, are welcome. Technically we are almost divorced since we are just waiting for my lawyer to present it to a judge, which will happen next week.

A huge part of me thinks he's just reacting to the rejection of the bakery closing, but again, I'd like other perspectives from those who have walked in his shoes.

Thanks!


Me - BS
Him - xWS
Married 6 years, together 10 years
D-Day: 9/23/2010, PA & EA. False R.
D-Day #2: 12/2/11 never stopped talking to OW, + 2 more OW
Status: Divorce docs signed 1/9/12, finalized 2/7/12.
Took a divorce to get remorse, ugh.

Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2011
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, January 13th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question for WS's specifically related to the men.
I apologize in advance because the question is quite crude.. but here goes.
My husband had a two time fling with his newly divorced female boss. He had sex with her once in a motel room and again in her hot tub and bed. He confessed the entire affair to me and also told me (sorry here comes the crude part)... that he was uable to "achieve an orgasm" with her on either occasion. He said he was so nervous and could not stop thinking about me. He also said she was rather large in that particular area and this contributed to it as well. My question... do you think this is possible ? He never ever had a problem with me and is very sexual. It wouldseem being with someone else would be exciting. I also question why he went back for seconds then. He says he does not know. What do you think? Once again apologies for the crudeness.

Susannah,

Not crude at all!

Yes it's very possible he couldn't achieve an orgasm. Many factors can contribute to that. I had the same problem.

Regretfully I tried again and again.


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, January 13th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MsScarlettOHara,

Proceed with caution!

I had a sudden awakening as well. My wife took a HUGE risk on me. I'm thankful she did, but I'd never tell someone to do the same thing.

If he is serious about changing, I'd let him know you are proceeding with the divorce and if YOU want to give the relationship another try, you can always re-marry.

I'd HIGHLY recommend The Marriage Builders Program if you are going to elect to give it another try..... And set the bar HIGH, you deserve so much better than he has given you in the past!


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, January 14th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Scarlett, I agree with Card. Proceed with caution.

I am confused as all get out by his sudden "awakening". Any thoughts, good or bad, are welcome. Technically we are almost divorced since we are just waiting for my lawyer to present it to a judge, which will happen next week.
I think a lot of WS are shocked out of their fog, pull their head out of their ass, or experience an awakening when they actually reach a milestone that they never really ever expected. For you, it is the signing of the D papers and delivery of said papers to a judge. For me it was when my BW had a bag packed and a pretty solid exit plan.

A huge part of me thinks he's just reacting to the rejection of the bakery closing, but again
I think you are right on the mark. He has no option but to accept that others won't play along anymore. This may be what he said he wanted, but now that it is here, he is not prepared for it, and he is probably just trying to do some triage to get back to a situation that he knows.

The choice is yours. If he finally is getting it, does the work that anyone in his position should do for himself, then it would seem totally okay for you to be able to make a decision regarding a relationship with him somewhere down the road.

Keep yourself safe for now.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, January 14th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gromit,

I think he is fearful of trying to fix it and refuses to face the affair so instead reaches for anything else.
Exactly.
It's like he needs justification for not trying and because he hasn't actually got any justification but fear
Yep
I feel like he uses 'I don't love you anymore' as his reason because who could blame a man for leaving his wife if he didn't love her anymore.
uh-huh
He's also changed his story as time has gone on about loving me. When I first discovered he'd cheated he said he was very much in love with me when we got married and he loved me when he started his affair and was very happy with our relationship but that he woke up one day and it was like someone 'flicked a switch' and he just didn't love me anymore. Then a few weeks down the line it turned into he'd shut off his feelings in order to cope with the guilt. Then it turned into he didn't love me enough to try. Them it turned to him being 'content' before the A. Then it went on to him not being sure if he loved me when we got married but he didn't cheat so he could leave the relationship. It's like the more time he's had to conjure up any excuse but blaming the A, the worse it gets.
I think that qualifies as re-writing the marital history. I did it too.

For me, there was a period where I was trying to find an answer. I don't think it was necessarily about justification, but more about trying to find a reason for what I had done and for not letting go of the EA once my BW knew about it. From my perspective, I wasn't a bad guy. I was just finally making choices for myself instead of for other people. I would tell my BW that I cared for her, but I needed to finally fill that hole in my heart. So I talked and reasoned my way out of being in love with her.

As you know, someone involved in an A is not thinking very clearly at all. Maybe this sounds like justifying too, but having been there, I believed I was finding my truth at the time. Now I see that I was avoiding the truth.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
gromit2011
♀ Member
Member # 33650
Default  Posted: 4:53 PM, January 14th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Baxter. He'd been away on a break with his family over Xmas and we talked on Tuesday for the first time in ages. He was more open and honest than he'd been in ages. Reaffirmed that the affair meant nothing and he thinks it was simply the thrill of leading a double life which he quickly realized he couldn't do. When I asked how he felt about me know he said he still didn't know as he was just only able to start talking about the affair. Said he wanted to keep talking to me about it. He wanted to know how I felt about him though.

Last night I asked if we could try being friends again and take it from there to see how we both felt about each other. He agreed and thought it was a good idea.

Cut to today. Been out drinking with friends last night and out again tonight. He says the only way we can work out how we feel is if we're honest with each other. Asks what i want. I reply saying i'm scared being honest with him. He asks why and says he wants to kniw what i want. I say i can't be his wife but i'd like to be his girlfriend again. Then he Says
he cares about me but his feelings towards me still haven't changed. WHY ask me what I want and how I feel!!!!!


Together 4 years
Married June 2011
DDay 8 October 2011
6 week PA
WH claims his 'affair' was nothing to do
with being unhappy in our relationship, it
was just the thrill of trying to lead a double life. Oh, but this means he doesn't

Posts: 124 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: UK
MsScarlettOHara
♀ Member
Member # 32715
Default  Posted: 6:02 PM, January 15th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Card and Baxter for responding.


Me - BS
Him - xWS
Married 6 years, together 10 years
D-Day: 9/23/2010, PA & EA. False R.
D-Day #2: 12/2/11 never stopped talking to OW, + 2 more OW
Status: Divorce docs signed 1/9/12, finalized 2/7/12.
Took a divorce to get remorse, ugh.

Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2011
tatters
♀ Member
Member # 34187
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, January 15th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hope I'm using this forum correctly. I asked a similar question a while ago on the General forum but would really like the views of the WS, too.

I'm curious if there are any WSs here where substance abuse played a part in your infidelity. I'm struggling with this in our situation. He was pretty messed up for the duration of his A and regretted it immediately upon sobering up. I'm in no way excusing him because he made choices, but I'm finding it very difficult to reconcile his behavior with the man I know off of painkillers.

Any insight is appreciated.


Me - BW 37
Him - WH 36
15 years
DDay 12/9/11
RDay 1/16/12
Trying to R
"I won't give up on us, even if the skies get rough."

Posts: 1347 | Registered: Dec 2011
Card
♂ Member
Member # 23667
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, January 16th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tatters,

When we choose to step into the gutter, it isn't just the foot that makes that step.... It's the whole man/woman that goes down....

Check this out;
Life changing bible verses for me.
James 1:13-15


WH (me)
BS (her)

D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007

"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!

Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin


Posts: 570 | Registered: Apr 2009
afallenangel
♀ New Member
Member # 34563
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, January 17th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS Here ... fairly new to the boards and have been helped tremendously so much already.

So, my question for the WSs (male or female) ...

Has your BS ever asked you if you miss your AP and were you honest with them in your answer?

If this has not happened, do you feel you would be honest (honestly, lol)?

My WH had a year+ long E/P A and around 8 months or so after DDay (certainly no where near the critical just found out stage), we were discussing things very calmly one day, really making progress, I thought ... I swore he would have felt safe enough to reply honestly and when I asked him if he ever missed her, he quickly replied NO, that he did not miss her at all.

Part of me feels that he lied to protect me (which is what he said he did all along during the TT which I tried telling him was his "cover his ass" stage, not "don't hurt my wife" stage). I don't applaud him for that at all. I would have rather he said, "yes, sometimes I do miss her" because then I would have known he was being honest for sure. I'm trying to get him to shift from the "you are going to be mad at me" mentality to the "this is who I am and I'm sorry if it hurts you but I have to be true to myself" mentality. It's not working out so well.

Just wondering what others have done or would do in the same situation. I respect and appreciate your honest answers.

AFA

[This message edited by afallenangel at 3:03 PM, January 17th (Tuesday)]


Me: 39,BS
Him: 42,WS
DDay: 4/14/11
Together 11.5yrs, Married 6.5yrs
"If a woman asks you a question, it is best to tell the truth because chances are, if she is asking you, she already knows the answer"
Status: R and making progress ...

Posts: 45 | Registered: Jan 2012
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, January 17th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

AFA,

Answers to your question will vary. Some WS are repulsed by what they did and with the AP, others go through significant withdrawal from the AP and in the early days after d-day, even well into R, will definitely miss the AP.

For me, I was one who missed the AP, but as time passed and my BW and I worked on R, on our M, it became easier to separate the A from the AP. Then, at the end of the day, it isn't about missing AP or even the A at all, it is about what was broken inside of me that allowed me to make the choice to have an A.

Does that make sense? It doesn't matter if your WH misses the OW. If he says he does miss her, then he is lying to himself. If he says he doesn't miss her, then you feel he is lying to you, but it doesn't matter because it isn't about the AP at all, it is about himself.

I lied to my BW. I minimized and avoided, all the while thinking I was protecting my BW. I remember my mindset at the time was a sort of silent suffering, with the knowledge that I had to do something to work through this without hurting my BW further. Eventually I started to realize that my BW sensed this and that she wanted to help and to be involved and informed about what was going on in my head. It is a tough hurdle for the WS to get over.

I'm not sure that your question to him is the best litmus test for his honesty. It is a set up for failure, and as you both heal and work on R, the answer will become less relevant.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
Arais
♀ Member
Member # 33628
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, January 18th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH said that he never - ever- talked about me to OW. Do you believe this?

Posts: 329 | Registered: Oct 2011
afallenangel
♀ New Member
Member # 34563
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, January 18th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF - First, and above all, thank you for your reply. It's appreciated greatly.

Second, I'd like to say that I really feel that I wasn't testing him to see if he would necessarily be honest ... I was asking him to show him that he was safe in being honest since there were so many lies in the TT process that delayed our healing and IMO caused more damage than the actual A did itself.

Maybe he doesn't miss her (and I pray that you are right and that as time goes by, it will matter less and less) - I guess only he knows the answer to that and you are also right on another point because it ties into what he says to me which is that now that I am back to fulfilling the needs that he felt he was lacking during that time, he doesn't miss or think of her at all - he is thinking of me and missing me since I am now the source of comfort for him again. GOD I hate that he was so weak during that time. If he had just come to me and told me what he was feeling, the A never would have happened. But he didn't ... he chose the cowards way out and boy are we paying for it now.


AFA


Me: 39,BS
Him: 42,WS
DDay: 4/14/11
Together 11.5yrs, Married 6.5yrs
"If a woman asks you a question, it is best to tell the truth because chances are, if she is asking you, she already knows the answer"
Status: R and making progress ...

Posts: 45 | Registered: Jan 2012
helpemegetoverit
♀ Member
Member # 30242
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, January 18th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Arias
My WH said that he never - ever- talked about me to OW. Do you believe this?

Did his AP know he was married?

If so, I would highly doubt this is true. It is not very likely....but I guess possible? Maybe?

Also, it could be true if he had a one night stand or something similar. I could see that completely. I don't know your story but the question is, does it make sense to you? Is he being completely honest about every detail from what you know of him? Does he have a history of lying before the affair?


Me: WW
Him: BH
Intuition is not a gift, but a skill based in self esteem.

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