Sorry I mean "what he was" basically no not saying a bad person. But my WW sees him as a good man and a friend to her. What i expect perhaps is for her to realise that a friend does not help you destroy your marriage. Also He himself cheated on his partner, so regardless of my WW, that makes him a cheater too, and I guess I would expect my wife to be able to see that about him.
Also yes the fact that he was just an available target and probably not the man of her dreams she had him built up to be...
But my WW sees him as a good man and a friend to her
Ah, that is a problem. If she thinks of him as a friend, she is likely still in some kind of fog.
It takes some of us longer than others to see the AP in a different light. It is often easier to take the blame. It seems like many WS have trouble viewing the AP as bad because only a fool would get involved in an A. I don't know...there are many possibilities.
You are right about NC. The way things sound right now, either your WW needs to get a new job or you may very well end up D.
Until she removes herself from direct contact with the OM, she will continue to think he is a good guy. He might be, but it isn't something she should be touting.
I'm just wondering if you always end up seeing the OM/OW for what they were? Or do you still think of them as a "good" person.
There is another post in General about whether someone who had an affair should think that their AP was a 'bad person'. It's all BS posting, so I'm not going near it with a 10 foot pole, but I'll answer your question as best I can based on my experience/affair.
On some level I saw AP for who he was during the entire affair. My particular AP had already cheated on his wife/fiance at least once when I met him, depending on what you call an affair. He was newly married when I met him and we started our affair. He had a pretty major lying 'problem' or personality. I could see him tell bold faced lies to basically anyone, about anything, even the most mundane of things. I saw him for exactly who he was, saw him interact with 2 other females in particular the same way he did with me (not a surprise given his history) and just compartmentalized it all away and it even made it 'easier' for me to continue with him.
But, I am not sure I'd say that he is a 'bad' person and I never sit here and blame him, talk badly about him to my BH, etc. I was responsible for 50% of that relationship, I was not a victim (his wife and my husband were the victims). He is just a person with some very deep seeded issues (as are mine, although they are different).
Sorry I mean "what he was" basically no not saying a bad person. But my WW sees him as a good man and a friend to her. What i expect perhaps is for her to realise that a friend does not help you destroy your marriage. Also He himself cheated on his partner, so regardless of my WW, that makes him a cheater too, and I guess I would expect my wife to be able to see that about him
This is a bit of an issue. You are right, he is not, nor should be considered a 'friend'. A friend does not do what they did. While he also may be remorseful, etc...they are not 'friends'. They are two broken individuals.
A 'friend' would go NC with her so she can work on her marriage. While an affair partner COULD have been the proverbial 'anyone'....they are a human being and many times that human being had a spouse who was extremely hurt in the process. I feel horrible for my AP's wife that I had ANY part in causing her pain. While there in another AP in her world besides me, I know that she has to think of me as the person who was with her husband the entire first year they were married and didn't give her one thought during that time. I am not sure I am making sense in this post, but my point is that your wife needs to think of it this way. He COULD have been a good person who did a bad this, as could she....but remaining friends with him if that hurts you means that she/he is still doing a bad thing if that makes sense.
[This message edited by helpemegetoverit at 1:20 PM, February 2nd (Thursday)]
Long story short (Long version in my profile):
My X and I are separated - physically since August tho we split up a year ago and signed an agreement resolving our marital issues at that time. (We are separated, rather than divorced for financial reasons only.) We split after trying to reconcile for 1 1/2 years after I discovered my X's 1 1/2 year affair with his coworker.
I never stopped loving him & he says the same about me. We split because he did not do what was necessary to reconcile - really was unsupportive, did not truly participate in therapy, didn't observe or respect anything I needed to feel safe - continued to go to events where OW was or was likely to be, staying out all night etc.
Despite our split up, we resolved amicable, had a very liberal parenting plan that results in us seeing each other every day - usually for only an hour a day (visitation takes place at my home for a number of reasons not relevant to my inquiry here.)
So, in November, he becomes aware that I've met someone & I believe because of that he starts to seem a lot more interested in me, asks me to go on a date with him, etc. I start to feel hopeful again, only to find out a few weeks later that he was back with OW (same one this whole time) right after he moved out and right up through & after when he was asking to go out with me.
(As an aside, I must admit that every few weeks or so we would sex. Not an emotionally healthy decision, I realize - but for what it's worth I had no idea he was with OW or anyone else.)
So nothing wound up happening with the guy I had texted back in November, and for whatever demented reason, when he offered to end it with OW if I would start going out with him, I agreed, since I had nothing to lose, I felt. We went out on a date, it was awful, same old issues, too many hurt feelings etc. In the weeks that ensued, I tried to talk to him as to how to work things out and got the same old lukewarm low effort response that was characteristic of our reconciliation efforts.
I then get asked out by someone & I say yes. And we get a long very well. I tell X about him. X flips out and then I start to see the reaction I was waiting for all along: he physically did not look well, wasn't sleeping, eating, doing any of the things he enjoyed, etc. I got, letters that showed he had given this a lot of careful reflection & had a lot of regret. Seemed to understand or at least be able to articulate how he went wrong. This meant a lot to me as I know how hard it must have been to admit these things to me. He's now willing to do whatever it takes to R.
This started in mid-December and his interest in R continues, but I have told him I want to keep dating this guy - for a number of reasons.
Now, tonight, X tells me that it's now or never. That he'll never get over me choosing this guy over him and that he's not going to keep going to IC (which he just started) if I'm going to keep seeing this guy & he's going to start to date.
My point is that we've tried to work this out so many times and failed. I'd like him to keep going to IC and maybe then I'd feel like I can take on R with him. The new guy really is a non-issue to me. I like hanging out with him, enjoy the attention, but realize the limits of the relationship. I just feel like I went through hell for the past 2 1/2 years and I want something nice & easy. Don't want to risk getting involved with X at this time.
I start to see the reaction I was waiting for all along
No you didn't. You saw HIS reaction to rejection. That's it. That's all you saw.
Neither of you sound ready for a relationship. He hasn't really started the work and you've allowed the dynamics between the two of you be your focus instead of healing and growing.
Now some guy is a part of this too.
Now is a good time for "everyone out of the pool". Time for real individual work for all and see how y'all fit AFTER you've gotten healthy. My bet? You probably won't and that's not a bad thing!
'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth
I'm feeling very conflicted
What are you feeling conflicted about?
Re-read UO's response to you. He feels rejected. He isn't sorry for what he did.
Is it possible for a LTA to end without any proper closure?
I think so, absolutely. Closure is overrated.
Second, he doesn't care about their children and wouldn't even want to see their new born baby
I have a problem with this. I think it is seriously cold blooded that he does not even want to see pictures of his baby. But these things do not happen in isolation. Is he cold about other things in his life?
We talked about how his life is so devoid of family, his family. He said he will take whatever he can get. He doesn't realize his 3 adult kids want nothing to do with him. Whenever they see each other it is usually b/c his OW is out of town so it frees him up for his kids. The kids tell me their feelings or lack of feelings for their dad, but just talk superficially with him when they see him.
My XH prides himself on telling the truth now without anymore lies. But I see his life and the kids see his life as one big lie he has been telling himself.
He has been a guest only at his sons wedding. He never sees his kids as a group. He will never be able to have them in his home. He was told by his girls he will not walk them down the isle when the time comes. My son says he will not be welcome at the birth of his future grandchildren. He will never wake up on Xmas day in the home of his kids.
What lies do these WS tell themselves in order to stay with OW and in denial about estrangement with their kids and family?
The WS here on SI won't really be able to answer that question. Most of us didn't leave, and none of us stayed with AP, otherwise we wouldn't be allowed to post on SI.
The one case I know of where the WH is still with OW, I'm not sure anyone ever got an answer out of him.
What I think happened to him is that he made his decision to leave with OW, thought he was right and all that typical WS bullshit, and tried to make everything "normal" when it came to his kids. Things were never normal. Now that the kids are all grown, he sees things differently. He sees the damage he did. And now he is grateful for any time that he gets with his kids. But I also know that he regrets what he did way back when...
So the best way to explain his situation is that he made a decision and he was going to take the consequences of that decision, no matter what happened.
Don't know if that makes sense, but that is what I think happened with him.
I would bet that over time, your WH will start to figure things out. And maybe someday in the future, the kids may find some place for him in their lives. That will be their choice.
Unhealthy patterns follow wherever we go until we break the pattern and replace it with healthy one's.
Nlove, your ex may never do what he needs to in order to get healthy. That's what your children will see.
He may not be in denial but accepts the limits in order to keep doing what he wants to do.
Marriages fail. Infidelity is a big factor in many, not all. The children experience fallout regardless. It's not ideal, often. It's sad.
I hope your children are making their choices because they believe it is the healthiest thing to do for them not because they feel they need to for you. I've seen this. The kids are stuck in the middle trying to be all things to both parents...they vilify to the betrayed and tolerate the betrayer in order to try and make it all better.
I'm not saying this is what yours are doing. All you can do is heal from his betrayal and move forward with him not even in your plans or thoughts. Let him deal with the carnage he caused and keep your relationship with your children focused on enjoying them without allowing your absent ex to be a part of it.
If they come to you with hurt, comfort without bashing. It can create a painful dynamic of having to somehow either defend or feel they're betraying someone they already have conflicting feelings about.
They have you and your actions to show them how to be. You can be their example of what to do. His of what not to do. They learn valuable things from both.
I'm sorry you all are going through this.
what did you think of your spouse if they forgave you?
I thought he was unreal. It was unbelievable.
Was there an element of "they will put up with anything?"
Heavens, no! My husband will walk at the smallest sign of something else happening again. I know I have no chances left.
Did it lessen your respect for them?
Absolutely not. It is one of the most amazing, generous, loving things a person can do.
It feels that if I share my pain, it is just unproductive and causes undue pain for my FWH
Hon, at 4 yrs out, he really should be coming to you. Obviously we're not mind-readers but there are times when *we* can sense when *you* are down about something. FWH caused undue pain for you as well. Talk to your FWH. Tell him you need to talk. Communicate, communicate, communicate.
Found out about affair #3 in December. WH and I have always been super close and in love. His affairs are due to sexual addiction. During affair #2, he would beg me not to leave him. Any talk of divorce or losing me would leave him in tears. Even right after I found out about affair #3, he was begging me not to leave him. But now, he's pushing for the divorce to come fast. I already had a case filed after affair #2 so we will be divorced within the next two months. Also during affair #2, he was distant (which he explained was due to tremendous guilt) but would sometimes say how much he missed me and didn't want to lose me. Now, he never says anything. I'm so hurt and broken even though I know I have to divorce. Can someone explain to me how a WS can be so callous and uncaring and now be pushing for the divorce to go quicker? I KNOW he's not ok that he's losing the marriage. Is this a defense mechanism...like he thinks he will feel less guilty once we are divorced? It's not like he thinks he will be free once he's divorced....he's already been doing whatever the hell he pleases for the last 3 years. Any thoughts?