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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 6
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, February 9th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Devastated, to me it's simply he was done. You weren't. I'm not diminishing how painful that is. 

Helen Fisher and other researchers (I really love her, though) have done excellent work in this area that is very enlightening. I think often, just as the "love" a WS can feel for the OP is not, in fact what they're really experiencing, the same type of dynamic can be experienced by some BS's...rejection is brutal. I wonder if it's confused with love because of the intensity and the connection to the STBX so one can conclude it's love. Looking back after time you often hear, WTF was I thinking. Good riddance. 

HELEN FISHER
High Resolution VersionBethesda, Md. – The pain and anguish of rejection by a romantic partner may be the result of activity in parts of the brain associated with motivation, reward and addiction cravings, according to a study published in the July issue of the Journal of Neurophysiology.

Helen Fisher, a research professor and member of the Center for Human Evolutionary Studies at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, in New Brunswick, N.J., is the lead author, along with co-author Lucy L. Brown of the Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University, Bronx, NY.

The study’s findings could have implications for understanding why feelings related to romantic rejection can be hard to control, and may provide insight into extreme behaviors associated with rejection, such as stalking, homicide and suicide—behaviors that occur across many cultures throughout the world.

Study Design and Findings

In the study, researchers used functional magnetic resonance imagine (fMRI) to record brain activity in 15 college-age, heterosexual men and women who had recently been rejected by their partners but reported that they were still intensely "in love." The average length of time since the initial rejection and the participants’ enrollment in the study was 63 days, and all participants scored high on a psychological test called the Passionate Love Scale, which determines the intensity of romantic feelings. All participants said they spent more than 85% of their waking hours thinking of the person who rejected them, they yearned for the person to return and they wanted to get back together.

Participants each viewed a photograph their former partners. Then they completed a simple math exercise, such as counting backwards from a random four-digit number by 7, to distract them from their romantic thoughts. Finally, they viewed a photograph of a familiar "neutral" person, such as a roommate’s friend.

The researchers found that looking at photographs of the participants’ former partners stimulated several key areas of the participants’ brains more than looking at photos of neutral persons did. The areas are:

• the ventral tegmental area in the mid-brain, which controls motivation and reward and is known to be involved in feelings of romantic love,

• the nucleus accumbens and orbitofrontal/prefrontal cortex, which are associated with craving and addiction, specifically the dopaminergic reward system evident in cocaine addiction, and

• the insular cortex and the anterior cingulate, which are associated with physical pain and distress.

The researchers note that their findings supply evidence that "the passion of ‘romantic love’ is a goal-oriented motivation state rather than a specific emotion" and that their results are "consistent with the hypothesis that romantic rejection is a specific form of addiction." Those who are coping with a romantic rejection may be fighting against a strong survival system that appears to be the basis of many addictions. The data help to explain why the beloved is so difficult to give up.

Hope for the Lovelorn

There is hope for the lovelorn, however: The researchers found that the greater the number of days since the rejection, the less activity there was in the area of the brain associated with attachment, the right ventral putamen/pallidum area, when the participants viewed photographs of their former partners. Also, areas associated with reappraising difficult emotional situations and assessing one's gains and losses were activated, suggesting that rejected individuals are trying to understand and learn from their difficult situation--what could be an adaptive response to rejection. If attachment responses decrease as the days go by and falling out of love is a learning process, there could very well be physiological evidence that time heals all wounds.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, February 9th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

confusedbeyond,

The whole "in love" concept is skewed when it comes to A's. The driver behind that "love" is the problem. It is the drug that is referred to in many posts. I don't think that single OW are immune to this (sounds like the OW in your sitch is single).

I don't think continued breaking of contact is "typical" WS behavior, but it is not surprising that it occurs as often as it does. There are just a lot of broken messed up people who don't get it who will push the boundaries even so far as having to defend themselves in court.

Remain NC with her. Document the hell out of everything, and when she finally does cross that line, you will hopefully have a better outcome. Also, confirm and talk with your WH that he is remaining NC.

Can you change your numbers? or your email? Can you have an attorney send a letter telling her to stop?

Short story, it is not typical, but it isn't surprising.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:42 PM, February 9th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevestatedTwice,

Are you sure he is SA?

It seems like he has almost conditioned himself to get to this point.

The distance is not all just about guilt, but if you can distance yourself (as the WS) during this time, you can put off taking responsibility for what you have done to your BS. The comments about missing you and not wanting to lose you would give you hope which would then allow him more time to put tings off. In fact, it makes him look like the good guy.

I know I didn't want to lose my M, but, at the time of my A, I would have been happier (gotten out of doing the hard work) if my BW would have filed. I was in no condition to deal with my own problems and was quite adept at functioning in such a way that I got what I needed and didn't have to work very hard at things. My BW's unwillingness to buy into my way of thinking forced me to deal with my problems. It sucked. I resented her for it. And now that I am coming out on the other side, I can thank her for what she did.

If you need to D, then D. You have it all lined up, and you know what you need to do for you. Your WH isn't giving you the signs you need to see to make a different call.

His MO is to put off looking at his own issues, while saying things which he thinks will make him look like the good guy while he is ripping your heart from your chest.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
confusedbeyond
♀ Member
Member # 33462
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, February 10th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Baxters- no the OW is married but from what I understand she was unhappy and in my opinion I think this was a passive aggressive way to get her H to initiate seperating from her. My fwh swears he has been 100% NC, he testified to this in court and her attorney did not refute or provide evidence to the contrary. We did see an atty last night and he is going to contact her atty to basicall ysay, tell your client to move on or we will take criminal legal action against her". We have changed home, cell #'s, blocked from Fb which she then created a new profile, has used other accounts to still contact, used 2 different email addresses as we blocked her email addresses and most recently has now sent emails to my business account.


BS: Me 35
WS: him 37
3 children 5,3, 3 mons
D day 9/23/11
still getting trickling info but WS is acting remorseful. both in IC, MC

Posts: 115 | Registered: Sep 2011
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, February 10th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevastatedTwice -

What makes you think your H is a SA? Just because he is a serial adulterer does not make him a sex addict.

Can someone explain to me how a WS can be so callous and uncaring and now be pushing for the divorce to go quicker?

I am very sorry for your pain. I think he has been detaching for a long time now - this did not happen suddenly for him.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
foundoutlater
♂ Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, February 11th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need some perspective on a WS’s healing and my role in that and was hoping to find some perspective here. I am open to all the things that you think would be helpful. We are both in IC and together in MC, and both are working hard on R. She read “How to Help Your Spouse…” and I need to read it. We are doing other reading including SI.

The main thing I need help in is understanding how I can help with one issue – my WS’s self esteem and love of self while facing what she has done. I think I have been past lashing out in anger for a little while (I know that was damaging to her). I think we have moved to a point where we can be honest and open even when it is about how wrong one of us is/was (all the relationship issues are on the table as much as possible – mine and hers). I know I have a long way to go to work through all the issues I have both with the A as well as the problems I brought to the relationship. She is working through her issues and also trying to get to what she really felt about the A and her why’s. As I type this I realize that I have the same problem – keeping my self esteem and love of self healthy while facing my issues in our relationship. Any perspective on what helped you from sinking or losing your self esteem or self love while navigating the healing (in R or not) would be helpful. Thank you!


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1062 | Registered: Jul 2011
DevastatedTwice
♀ Member
Member # 29061
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, February 13th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uncertainone, Unexpectedsong, and Baxters,

Thank you so much for your perspectives.

You are right Unexpectedsong, he has been detaching for a long time. The reason I think he is an SA is because he started looking at porn at 5 years old. It became something he did during his adult years in order to cope with stuff and he hated himself when he looked at it. He would sob and say how much he didn't want to do it any more but would struggle with stopping. That behavior escalated to cybersex and eventually the first affair.

You are right Baxters, he's putting off dealing with his own issues. I know I have to divorce. I'm just having a hard time letting go of what we had before his behavior got this bad.

Thank you for that valuable information Uncertainone. That was very interesting to read.


Me - BS - 39
Him - WH, SA - 39
Married 17 yrs.
3 kids- 16, 13, 8
Dday#1 - 3/16/07 PA
D-day#2- 9/21/09 PA, began recovery 6/8/10
D-day#3- 11-8-10 False recovery.
D-Day#4- 12/27/11 Third PA, divorcing
Divorced- 6/6/12

Posts: 405 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, February 14th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevastatedTwice -

I think he is an SA is because he started looking at porn at 5 years old

Oh, this just breaks my heart. This is child sexual abuse.

My guess is that this wasn't all it was.

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 10:04 AM, February 14th (Tuesday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, February 14th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

foundoutlater -

Any perspective on what helped you from sinking or losing your self esteem or self love while navigating the healing (in R or not) would be helpful

I don't think that focussing on self esteem or self love is the way to gain either. I think what you need to focus on are the issues - what are they, how to deal with them, how to respond in the future, etc. Self esteem is the result of healthy behaviors, not the other way around.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, February 15th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

foundoutlater,

Any perspective on what helped you from sinking or losing your self esteem or self love while navigating the healing (in R or not)
I think Song is right. It would be more about the issues and how you deal with them which would then allow you to not take such a hit to self esteem or love of self as part of how you react to something. (I think I am agreeing with Song...)

I think in my case, I have had to challenge myself to on this. Whenever I felt I was sinking, I began realizing that it was because I wasn't being honest with myself. The the challenge for me was to face my issues rather than let them drag me down. More often than not, my self esteem issues occur when I interact with others. When I feel I'm not heard, or when I am dismissed by others, it really hits me hard and I just want to hide. So now I look at the situation more closely. There are a number a variables to factor in, but my response now, instead of letting myself spiral down, is to either "ignore" the person or call them out. Not quite as cut and dry as that, but that is the gist.

I think in your case, the self esteem/love of self issues didn't come about because of the A, they were there long before that. The self esteem/love of self became the reaction to events which would eventually lead to coping with the issues a certain way, which, in your WW's case, led her down the slippery slope. That is how she dealt with it. Now she has to change it, but the only way to change it is to face the issues, which means she has to be honest with herself when she starts having those sinking, spiraling feelings again.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6047 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
DevastatedTwice
♀ Member
Member # 29061
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, February 15th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was just wondering if when you WS's were in the fog during your A's, did you really believe the crazy excuses and justifications you gave for why you were doing what you were doing? Or did you really know deep down that what you were saying out loud wasn't true?


Me - BS - 39
Him - WH, SA - 39
Married 17 yrs.
3 kids- 16, 13, 8
Dday#1 - 3/16/07 PA
D-day#2- 9/21/09 PA, began recovery 6/8/10
D-day#3- 11-8-10 False recovery.
D-Day#4- 12/27/11 Third PA, divorcing
Divorced- 6/6/12

Posts: 405 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: California
foundoutlater
♂ Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, February 15th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks UnexpectedSong and BaxtersBFF.

I think we are both focusing on the issues. I understand that the healthy behaviors are what will result in better self esteem. I guess that is one of the key elements I am talking about – my behavior. And I guess I know the answer – I need to respect my W’s feelings and hear her out and try not to reflect that back on me. Thanks for helping me remember it.

Baxter – the part about being honest with oneself when getting those sinking feelings sounds like good advice not just for wayward thinking but also some of the depressive thinking that has been going on for me.

I guess when I posted this I was looking for a couple of “ah ha” pieces of advice, the magic wand or the key. When will I stop looking for this? It just seems like each key opens a box and inside there is just another locked box anyway.

Thanks again for your help.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1062 | Registered: Jul 2011
Godsgirl
♀ Member
Member # 27521
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, February 16th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm embrassed to even ask this but my depression is so bad at this point that I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall.

My SAWH OW have all been the exact opposite of me physically and personality. Most are hispanic and I'm as white as you can get (dark blond, blue eyes, light skin tone with lots of freakles, short, and curvy, and right now I'm 50 pds over weight).

I get that I'm a better woman all the way around because of my values and integrity and kindness but I keep coming back to the fact that these OW that he lust after are not like me at all.

We've been together for so long that we don't have that new relationship lust/love.

His latest LTA MOW is very pretty and slender and worships the ground he walks on.

Where do I fit in here? Why does he keep wanting me when he has that or them? Why come back to someone that is the opposite of what he's obviously attracted to.

How can I even measure up to someone who offers more physical attraction and excitement?

Sorry, like I mentioned before, i am seriously depressed. (In IC and on meds)


Me-BS (38)
Him-SAWH (38)
4 precious kiddos
Multi DDay's,False R
4 Ea's, 1 ONS, 3 STA's, & 2 LTA's & 1 OC

I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength!


Posts: 836 | Registered: Feb 2010
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, February 17th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DevastatedTwice -

did you really believe the crazy excuses and justifications you gave for why you were doing what you were doing?

I knew I was wrong. I just did not understand why the compulsion was so strong.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, February 17th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Godsgirl -

I am sorry for your pain. Having a SAWH is truy, truly awful and I am sorry that you have to deal with this.

My SAWH OW have all been the exact opposite of me physically and personality.

Do you know your H's past? Who was it who sexually abused him when he was young? What did she look like?

I get that I'm a better woman all the way around

Surely you have heard the mantra by now for all spouses of SAs, right? You did not cause it, you cannot control it, you cannot cure it.

It has nothing to do with you. You could be the meanest, most horrible wife. You could be the most loving, amazing wife. His acting out has nothing to do with you.

Do you think (hope) that if you were somehow responsible for his acting out that you could change enough for him to not act out?

His latest LTA MOW

Why does he keep wanting me when he has that or them?

Two reasons. (1) Because he loves you and (2) because you let him cake eat. People get away with things that they can get away with. Children will dawdle to not do homework. People let dishes stack up in the sink. Granted, those are all non-moralistic issues, but the fact is that people do what takes the least energy.

For a sex addict, giving in to the compulsion takes less energy than fighting the compulsion. So, as long as you let him, he will give in to his compulsion and then when the wave is over, he comes back.

Being the one waiting at home ends when you decide it ends. Fixing his SA ends when he decides it ends. You cannot control his SA, you can only control whether you will be a part of it.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
Godsgirl
♀ Member
Member # 27521
Default  Posted: 12:51 AM, February 18th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for answering UnexpectedSong.

Do you know your H's past? Who was it who sexually abused him when he was young? What did she look like?

To my knowledge, SAWH was only emotionally abused and abandoned by both his parents.

Do you think (hope) that if you were somehow responsible for his acting out that you could change enough for him to not act out?

This could very well be true. I'm having difficulty right now coming to grips with the fact that I have no control over anything. And thanks to some medication problems, I don't even feel in control of myself, emotionally.

It's like I'm in my own destructive cycle with obsession and self hatred. But I'm in IC weekly and working my own recovery and healing so I'm at least aware and addressing my issues.

As far as the cake eating, I am trying very hard to keep my boundaries in place. We're currantly separated and SAWH has a long way to go before I'd even discuss getting back together but we're working on better communication and learning to be safe as far as talking about our own recovery and marriage issues.

To my knowleadge the LTA has ended but MOW is using a possible OC to try to keep communication open. It's complicated. She refuses to have a paternity test.

All of that was to say, I am doing my best to close the bakery, work on recovery and uphold my personal values and boundaries. But it's not easy.

Thanks again for your advice!!!!


Me-BS (38)
Him-SAWH (38)
4 precious kiddos
Multi DDay's,False R
4 Ea's, 1 ONS, 3 STA's, & 2 LTA's & 1 OC

I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength!


Posts: 836 | Registered: Feb 2010
finding phoenix
♀ Member
Member # 34862
Question  Posted: 2:56 PM, February 19th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi WSs, and thanks for your willingness to help us understand what's happening. My question is specifically about a serial cheater, so anyone who has knowledge of that would be particularly helpful but any advice/thoughts are welcome.
My fwh swears up and down that this time it's different, this time he really means it and really sees the problems and wants to fix them (third pa in 6 years). Is this even possible? Or if I stay again am I just teaching him that his behavior is acceptable?


Seriously confused about almost everything.

*latest* dday: January 26
Me: BS, 29
Him: f(?)WH, 30
R? I think...


Posts: 66 | Registered: Feb 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, February 19th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

finding phoenix -

How did you two respond to the first two affairs? And specifically, how did he?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
finding phoenix
♀ Member
Member # 34862
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, February 19th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I found out about the first two at about the same time. I told him I was leaving, and he asked me to stay and go to RC. Because he was sincere enough to quit his job so he didn't see the ow and had actually scheduled RC appointment before I even agreed, I went. He also gave me full access to email, facebook, etc. We did that until I felt comfortable in the relationship, past engagement but did stop going before we got married. My access to his email, etc has continued through the marriage.


Seriously confused about almost everything.

*latest* dday: January 26
Me: BS, 29
Him: f(?)WH, 30
R? I think...


Posts: 66 | Registered: Feb 2012
phmh
♀ Member
Member # 34146
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, February 19th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My STBXWH and I have filed for D, but he came out of the fog weeks ago and we are exploring the possibility of R. We have MC later this week.

One thing that bother me is that he refuses to vilify MOW. He will be working with her for the next 18 months. He claims that he really doesn't have any feelings for her other than pity. He says that she was in a terrible marriage.

He takes 100% of the blame for the A and refuses to put any on her. I told him that I want him to assign some of the blame for the A on her (I truly believe that she put the moves on him and while he should have said no, she wore him down.) He says that since he takes 100% of the blame for the affair, he can't hate her.

I worry about them working together for the next 18 months if he doesn't hate her.

I'm curious about how FWSs feel about their APs. Can R be possible if he doesn't hate MOW and what she did to our M?

I'm pretty close to checking out and not trying to R; this might just be the issue that pushes me over the edge.

Thanks!


Me: BW, divorced, now fabulous and happy!

Married: 11 years, no kids

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. -Michelangelo


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