I had to read your response twice- 2009??!!
Yep, you read that right SLH, DDay was late in '09, I've been on this freaking rollercoster for over 2 years!! He made a chaneg late last year and things did improve (to the point where sex resumed but not without it's difficluties) but it wasn't enough improvement in me for him to sustain his changed behaviour (in other words, if he doesn't get what he wants why bother?)
Hunny, your basically trying to heal from the death of a loved one- no one should EVER dare to put a time frame on that!
He asks me to "move forward" without giving me what I need to heal, "giving" being the operative word there. He has met most of my requirements but frankly, not with good grace IYKWIM some have been met begrudgingly at best, some sporadically and some not at all. I need that consistency of actions from him to believe he truly has changed and is not just placating me IYKWIM
My grandmother passed away in 2002 and I still think about her everyday and dream about her. I still have my sobbing moments. H has NEVER NOT ONCE EVER told me to get over it, it's the closest thing I can think of to compare his pain of my A to, you don't want to think of it and you want to heal, but you can't help the triggers and you can't help the sadness. No one wants to hurt forever. No one like pain, but we have cycles at times of our ups and downs, that's why a lot of times BS's on here refer to that as the roller coaster.
My WH has never understood the death analogy as he says "he's not dead" **shakes head** he has also expressed the opinion that I purposely stay in pain as a way to "punish" him (it really is all about him) He's actually said to me "If you don't want to feel this way anymore, just stop"
It sounds like your H has A LOT of work to do. He better get in and hold on tight or get the hell off 'cause this ride ain't over!
LOL... SLH he thinks he has done a LOT of work... Hmmm, he refuses IC as he doesn't need it (he thinks it's all a bunch of malarky) he knows his "why"... he was "selfish, entitled and depressed"... and "not thinking clearly"... not good enough IMO he needs to dig deeper but I think perhaps that scares him a bit too much.
((((Want To Wake Up))))
Thanks for the hugs, today I could use those.
We've tried MC but finding one around here that has experience dealing with the aftermath of infidelity is a hard ask. The last one we saw wanted me to accept that this was the way he was and just accept the crumbs he offered me if I wanted to stay in the marriage. I was to change, not him... how do these people stay in business? I did see an IC for a while but atm IC is unavailable to me due to finances so I have no one to talk anything over with.
MY WH proclaimed this deep soul mate feelings for his AP. Why not just go?
What purpose was it for to lie to me over and over? What was the purpose of hurting the one that was your soul mate(not me the AP). Leave already.
Can anyone just admit you stayed for finances? or because it was comfortable?
After all this time I struggle with the fact that my WH is a really bad person. He hurt me and he hurt his AP his supposed soul mate. I don't really feel sorry for her- just what the heck? I married my WS because he was a kind person. Who is this person I married- I feel like I am sleeping with the enemy.
Most of all I felt I married a man of integrity. Is this integrity now coming out as a man who is just staying because of the dreaded obligations.
1. changed his cell phone number he had for 7 years.
2. is accountable for where he is.
3. stopped going out to bars/clubs
4. stopped using/selling illicit drugs and drinking so much alchol.
5. fired the friends he was hanging out with and cheating with.
6. comes home right after work and had made me and the baby his priority.
7. was in ic/mc
8. did n/c with ow while i was on the phone. told her that he was married and to never call him again or there would be dire consequences.
9. in church weekly with me and the baby.
these are a few of the things he is doing...we still have a hard time talking about the affair. he says he has so much shame. i know everything...all the gory details. i am just not sure what else he can do. sometimes it seems like he cant do enough.
There are some days when I realize I haven't thought about it. Those times are usually related to time spent with BW and kids, and also when work gets busy. When I have down time, those are the times when I have thoughts of what I did. It's my guess that the remorseful WS will think about the A for a long time. Over time, the thoughts and feelings associated with it change. Eventually it sort of becomes a non-issue. It just isn't at the forefront of everything anymore.
The things you list are a great start. They sort of create a stable foundation which is actually pretty easy to maintain. IMO, they are the low-hanging fruit.
What else is he doing? He hasn't overcome his shame yet, so there is some work to do there yet. If you need to talk about it, and he can't bring himself to do that because he is uncomfortable with that, then there is still some work to do. Are you satisfied with his "why"?
As far as your IC saying you can't trust a cheater, that is bullshit. That conversation has occurred many times here on SI and while some people will always lie, being a cheater or not does not determine whether you are a life-long liar or not.
Sometimes what the WS says is the action. In this case, your WH can't talk about the A very easily. That is the action you should be looking at. As he becomes more comfortable talking about it, the presumption would be that he is working to own his shit, and that is a huge action that can only be judged in your situation by the words coming out of his mouth. But I also imagine that when he get to that point of talking about it, when you are sitting face to face having that conversation, you will know by the expression on his face, by the look in his eyes, and by his body language that he has done the work and that he will continue to do the work.
Why then when I told him to go to her (we do have financial committments but I am basically managing these by myself so he knows I could do it and she has her own place anyway) did he choose not to? I have asked him this, he says he loves me more. How can he though when he spent new year with her in the height of their a and not me, dumped me on my parents so he could have her round our house and palmed me off on work trips days early where I was stuck on my own so he could go out with her on her birthday???
I have a whole heap of o/s questions and even though I can't seem to fix our relationship, I still feel the need for closure on these things which I probably will never get. I have read through the q&a on here and they do help to get some points of view on the sticky subjects but I'll always wonder what my wh reasons were?
Specifically, why did he carry the a on after I found out and have a further ons with ow1 a few months down the line. He says nothing had changed and the ons was a mistake???
Why did he have the subsequent ea/suspected pas?
Why must he indulge in inaapropriate chit chat with other women?
Why does he stil lie even when I find things through my snooping and don't believe a word he says?
Why did he register for adult fun on dating websites when supposedly working on r?
And my biggest biggest bug bear.....how could you do any of this to me if you loved me, how could you bring the ow in to our house, do our special stuff, but me on the back burner for them and then lie, lie and lie some more - why didn't you once think about me. Where is the love in any of that?
The first date I had with my wife she said “don’t put me on a pedestal – I will fall”. I thought highly of her, but I never saw her as perfect or put her on a pedestal. But I did treat her better than anyone ever had, and I loved her like no one ever had. I have a concept of me that includes a high level of integrity, compassion and kindness as well as trying to do my best. My wife showed the same traits to me. We are not perfect and sometimes when we slip our partner is disappointed. Lord knows I have disappointed her time and again. But I never had the expectation that she would not slip in some ways. She is human and none of us are perfect.
She perceived that I put her on a pedestal. She had the pressure of the pedestal she thought I had her sitting on. There was a list of things that made her human, not perfect and I loved her. I loved her not in spite of these things or because of these things, but because I loved her with these things, I loved the whole person. I married and took the vows for better or worse, but I lived that from nearly the start of our relationship before we were married.
I did have a “perfect” expectation - that my wife would never stab me in the back and have relations with another man (EA or PA). After the PA happened and we started to work through it, there was no question this was my expectation and it was not unreasonable. That is not a pedestal. In my opinion that is standing on the curb and not in the gutter. And she did it again – repeatedly (for 3 or 4 years).
I guess where I come out on this is yes, the pedestal was real to her. Yes there were things about me and our relationship that she could internalize and feel that pressure. So what made her feel this way – why was the pedestal her reality, why did she feel the pressure, and why was this a factor in her betraying me?
OK so that was long – the questions I have are did anyone have this as part of their “why”, what did that look like for you and what helped you figure it out?
the truth is that we have been married for almost 7 years...i was pregnant during the affair...and my husband ended it when the baby was born. he supposedly told the ow he "got married" to "do the right thing and marry his pregnant girlfriend." the truth was that he was married to his pregnant wife the whole time.
is he embarrassed that i talked to the mistress? guilty and shame maybe? like all of his business is really out in the open? does he feel like fool...because he clearly got away with nothing?
i am sure that he never dreamed in a million years that i would be talking to his mistress when he was having his "fun."
maybe he is just mortified????
My WS best friend introduced him to OW. WS and friend would go on trips with the OW's. My WS is hesitate to give up the friendship completely. Friend is also a business acquaitanCe.
[This message edited by Wonderingwhy11 at 1:32 AM, May 12th (Saturday)]
Gotta love the life that we livin'
I also built elaborate structures of lies in my affairs. Some of my APs knew I was married, but there were some to whom I said that I was single or divorced. I knew that I had no intention of leaving my husband, and I would tell my APs that which I thought would best prevent them from causing trouble when the time came to leave them. It was always about finding the easiest way to deal with possible conflict, and about protecting myself from exposure.
dday 1 - 12/17/2011
dday 2 - 1/26/2012 (my past multiple affairs revealed)
WHs affair was mainly an online EA. for a brief few weeks it was a face to face EA. and for 2 months it was a PA with maybe only 3 actual physical encounters, 2 in hotels, 1 in a car that I know about and no reference to others.
But the language of their emails etc was highly sexual and very much him being in awe of her physically. They're both above average I guess, though she has a pinched kind of look and he carries a bit of nice cuddly weight. Being middle aged they are not models!
But what hurts is that he never talked like that to me when we were in early infatuation phase. I never expected t because I'm a fairly plain woman and always overweight for medical reasons. But now he's said all this to her I feel:
I'll always be second best
He can't possibly be physically attracted to me or he would have said *something* physical all these years. I always bought his line that looks didn't matter to him but clearly he's capable of being taken by looks.
I just feel he's always comparing me and I cannot ever look as good as her.
Add to that some of the chats they had have the following:
She: men are so visual they only value her for her looks (fishing for compliment of body and mind)
He: no I'm not, I can't be, MrsC is very overweight.
She: oh she's like most people, I'm exceptional
He: we'll you are ....(sickening compliments)
And then when she told him she thought of him whenever she had sex with her H, or in fact even web masturbating.... And tells him not to "just cut and paste"... They go on for a bit with her telling him pretty intimate stuff and then she repeats that she always thinks of him and he says "me too you know".
She didn't challenge it. She seemed to just buy it despite knowing his tendency to "me too".
Now it kind of rationally beggars belief to me. I'm short and fat, she's tall and thin. We are nothing alike physically. I can't quite imagine him having sex with me and being able to think of her- the cognitive dissonance would be too great I'd think.
He says he never did that but won't admit that's why. Just says t would be grotesque and he was just telling her what she wanted to hear and she seemed to have an inexhaustible capacity to believe it.
He admits to masturbating thinking of her while I slept beside him.
What do you think of the plausibility of all this?
How can you be physically attracted to a fat woman with stretch marks and saggy skin from 2 pregnancies close together? If you were wouldn't you talk more about it?
How could you stay with such a wife when you could have tall skinny AP whose body you keep saying you adore?
Is it possible for him to think of her (or porn or anything else) in the actual act with me? Doesn't that mean he isn't attracted to me physically?
I just feel he has no sexual attraction to me but because e loves me and knows how central sex had been to us he is faking it.
I find myself with huge sexual problems I basically pretend I don't have and partially fake it hoping I'll make it one day, he has been told how badly the things he said about her and to her affect me but I don't think he internalized it.
What can we do? Are we a hopeless case of ugly wife and visual husband?
I think many WS's struggle more than they let on. In dealing with that struggle, often times the WS is going to go through a phase, maybe multiple phases, of slinging shit everywhere trying to get it to stick to someone else.
So, the WS finds themselves in an A. The feelings are experienced and expressed. But there is that little thing called a conscience incessantly trying to slap you upside the head telling you you're wrong. A's can feel really good. Good enough to overcome the conscience. So the WS goes with the feelings and does everything that can to try to make it makes sense of it so that the conscience will shut up. This struggle creates the monster that many WS's become during and just after the A. Sometimes the WS stays as a monster. Other times they start to get it.
Was it finances? being comfortable? Sure. That is part of the reality of life. Does it matter that the AP was hurt? No, because they will likely have to face the same challenge as the WS. (how many WS were the MOW or MOM?) Can the WS come to the realization that they made a mistake in the first place and want everything to go back to normal? They can come to that realization, and they can want it to go back to normal, but it won't happen.
That may be where you are at. Your WH may be at a point where he realizes he was wrong and he wants to keep his M because it is what he wants, what is good, what is comfortable, oh, and that he really does love you, but he still has his hackles up a bit.
What was your relationship like before you guys got married? Did all of this really occur only after you were M?
There are many WS who aren't capable of fixing themselves, who will never get it. Their coping mechanisms are so good that they won't be able to turn around from the path they are on. Those coping mechanisms are something that were in place long ago, so they really have nothing to do with you directly, except that you are paying the price for it all now.
I don't think I had the pedestal issue going on, at least I don't think of my issues as being a pedestal-type issue, so I'm not sure how much help this will be.
Is your WW saying that her anxiety over perceiving that she was on a pedestal is what made her do these things? From your profile, piecing together what I can, she was sleeping with this guy when she was in HS or just out of HS. so she was 18? Not sure if the pedestal issue would have had a lot to do with things at that point. You guys were both pretty young.
Later, when her A started up again, what was your communication like? Because reading the first two paragraphs of your question sort of lays out the facts about how you felt for your wife throughout your M. If she wasn't able to grasp that, and be okay with that, then this would point to some long standing issues that were there before you guys got together.
I guess I would question the pedestal issue in your situation.
If she were to read your first two paragraphs, what would she say?
I'm pretty sure I know a couple people who've had A's. No close friends who I can be 100% sure of, but some co-workers. So, nobody really helped me to hide anything, as my BW was only a Christmas Party and Summer Picnic acquaintance with the couple of people who did now something was up.
If you need your WS to give up his buddy, then he should be willing to do that for you. The buddy is not a friend of the marriage. They can still be business acquaintances, but it should be strictly business. Does this buddy have that much of an impact on your WS business doings? Is that a relationship that MUST be maintained?
Well- looking back with IC and long talks with my BH- I was mose likely in a clinical depression when the A started. I had no self esteem and was desperate for attention. I coud hardly get through the day- it never would have occurred to me to leave or change my life. I fell into the A because the OM was paying attention to me. Yes I said ILY to him. Eventually after tryin got break it off several times, he started talking about wanting t omarry him. he never asked me to leave BH and I never offered to/ considered it. See I met OM playing a stupid online fantasy game- so in my head the whole thing was partly that - fantasy. I never really wanted him to be a part of my real life. In fact- when I met him twice in person i was embarrased to be seen walking down the street with him. I don't think he really felt that would "come true" either since he had lied about a lot of his life.
But remember- there is scientific proof that those days of early attraction release a chemical in the brain identical to the pleasure ones released when we are drunk. it is part of the reason it is universally agreed humans act like freaking idiots at the start of attraction. It does not excuse a darn thing I did or what your WH did- but it may help explain why some of these things just cannot be explained by logic. It isne that we just dont WANT to explain sometimes- we acted illogically because the chemicals created a "real" experience for us- and looking back we see it is no more "real" than virtual reality goggles. My finances will be fine with or without BH. I did a terrible thing that- no matter how it turns out- will remain my biggest regret in life. But I am not a bad person. I struggled, I was weak, I was selfish- but I a more than the person who made those choices. Your WH may be too.
@ siri- your list seems like a minimum. there should be NO hesitation on his part. If he can't talk about it- could he write out the answers to questions for you? That worked for me.
Do I think about it everyday? I think about how I have hurt my BH everyday. I think about and regret what I hve done to my family everyday. I rack my brain for ways to help my BH heal everyday. I do not think about OM often at all (at least not until he broke NC this week stupid jerk but that is another post). I live with my guilt but honestly try to channel it into making as many healthy changes as possible. See there is an 85% chsnce my BH is still leaving. I see my job to help him heal and make things up to him as much as possible before that time. After that- I know I will still think about it- but so will he and he had no choice in the matter.
Mrs Consistancy- ugg- how hard for you! well, I am female but i will try. See most of my A was an EA which took place over the computer with 2 physical encounters so...
we did "sexy typing" thing. Why? well partly because I would NOT do any skype stripping sex stuff (ironically because I am way body shy)- and it struck me as a little silly. ALso on Skype when i had to actually see him he was much less appealing i digress
Lots of the time I felt freer to be sexy "in game" when I did NOT see him (especially at first). I can see how an email would be the same. Why- you can imagine them without flaws. I mean- you may have seen the OW- but I am betting you have NOT had to see her up close and naked. I bet she is no more perfect than you are, or I am or anyone else. Your WH, when writing an email, could imaging her as airbrushed, waxed, tanned, etc as he wanted. In email fantasy land- she had never come to bed after dealing with a vomiting kid, working all day or is irritated he left the seat up. He is free to imagine she would constantly smell like roses and be willing to do all kinds of kinky things even when he smells like cheese.
What does that conversation between she and WH show? It shows HER insecurity towards YOU. SHe is basically begging for compliments- to be told he prefers her. Why did WH comply? If he is like I was- he would do and say almost anything to keep feeding the addiction. Sick, but true.
Since they were mostly email partners- who knows what he visualised. I know I did not visualize OM when with BH (but OM was realy ugly)- also I am not visual like that. I think it is plausable he was "in the moment" with you. If it was important to OW that he SAY he thought of her during sex- he would say it. Especialy if all he had to do was answer "me too." That would be way easier than saying "actually I treasure intimacy with my wife and would never let you intrude on that"- since that would cut off the free milk.
Now- can/ is he still attracted to you? Well- I dont know how things ended between OW and WH. BUT- I am a firm believer that confidence and internal sexiness can make just as much a diference as anything else. I feel your pain though. My BH actually told me he was "embarrased" by my weight. He later recanted and said that was not what he meant exactley- but made it clear my being 35 lbs overweight during my depression was "unacceptable." I really believe most women are insecure about our bodies. She showed her insecurity by constantly demanding compliments and comparing herself- if she felt that superior- why would she need him to confirm it??? Give him a list of what HE needs to do to make you feel sexy. Have him do things for YOU that make you feel like a goddess- he worked on convincing her- now he can put the effort into convincing you.
I traded sex and integrity to get the affection and attention I was desperate for- I think it is plausable your WH traded the compliments etc for sex.
Every day he sends me emails full of reasons of why we can't R. The other day he said something about how he's waiting for someone to make a move and until then he's just getting on. He also said something about how his life fell apart as well, not just mine.
And every time he gets in an argument with his OW, or she puts on the pressure, he sends emails about 'going ahead with D'. He knows I am not filing as he can pay for it and do all the heavy lifting.
What is up with him? What's his deal?