I have said some of the same things to my BH and I don't think it is all bullshit. Although, I do understand why you feel it might be. How could things suddenly be different? I know for me there was a sense of fear (and still is) after Dday when I confessed to my H. However, I don't think fear by itself necessarily means we are not in it for the right reasons. Fear is a basic human emotion that signals danger and WS's are in extreme danger of losing our BS's. Fear can motivate us to change and can be healthy to an extent. However, if he continues to be motivated only by fear and not by an internal desire to become a better person than there may be a problem. For me, realizing that I have destroyed my BH and my M (and my own life) really caused to me break down the walls I had built to "protect myself". I realized that I could no longer live the way that I was living and that I needed to make a change NOW. Although, realizing that and backing it up with actions are two different things. I feel I am also taking action steps to show my H that I am remorseful and am commited to doing what it takes to support his healing and become a better person. I have realized that a key factor in giving him the love he deserves is learning to love myself as well. I know that prior to the A I never felt worthwhile and I engaged in self-destructive behaviors because I did not value myself.
I do not see my M as exciting and new because we are in so much pain most of the time. I see our M as something that I destroyed and that will need to be rebuilt after we each work on healing ourselves. Your WH may feel closer because in his own process he has let down his walls? Realized what is important to him? I would make sure what he says matches what he does. And in regards to talking about the A this should be something he does to help you heal even if it is uncomfortable for him. He may also be sincere if he is really working on himself (IC, reflecting on his whys, reading, etc).
Hope this helps.
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain tight inside the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom" Anais Nin
In fact even if there had not been an affair I would question the friendships with the female friends especially since you stated they have no boundaries in conversations. IMO no boundaries between opposite sex friends is what can lead to a slippery slope. This can even happen with same sex friends as I found out when my SIL encouraged and condoned my A. Now I do not tell my girlfriends "secrets". I do not share anything with a girlfriend that I could not share with my H (not that he would necessarily want to know all my girl talk but in the event he overheard me he would be okay with what I am saying). This may be too extreme for some people and that is okay, but it is what my H and I have agreed to.
Frankly, I think your WH stating that he feels like you are telling him what to do and it is why he is having trouble commiting to R is a way to blameshift, try to control the situation and is very selfish.
In the beginning, I believe R is about what the BS needs in order to heal. If he is truly remorseful and commited to R than he should be willing to comply with what you need to heal.
I had to go NC with my SIL and also stopped contacting a friend who knew pieces of the affair. MY BH didn't ask me to stop contacting the second friend but I thought it the healthiest option. I want to be a healthier person and so I want to surround myself with people who are not only friends of the marriage but who have good values, morals, and are living with integrity.
I too agree that your WS needs to lose these "friends." I had so-called "friends" who knew about my affair and didn't tell me to get my head out of my ass. I was told by one, "You need to do what makes you happy, even if it means hurting others." That, to me, is the same as enabling/facilitating the affair. They are no longer my friends.
I am sure your WS doesn't like being "told what to do" and doesn't want to give up his friends. I lost every friend I had on D-day; the affair enablers because it was wrong to stay friendly with them, the others because they didn't want anything to do with me. It is hard to lose friends. But friends are (IMO) no match for the life partner that one takes vows with. Your WS needs to decide what matters more, keeping crappy non-friends around (I say that because real friends wouldn't have enabled his A) or keeping his WIFE around. Easy choice, IMO.
You are not wrong at all.
Married 2.5 years
Reconciling after divorce
Why would a WS do everything right for R-total transparency, allow me to have access to passwords, emails, texts, money expenditures, MC etc.. and still possibly be underground? I mean, why bother? And how do you know it's for real? I don't want to have to look and check and spy? I guess I just feel like if you don't want me, let me know, cause there is someone out there who I know will want me and what I have to offer...
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl
Is "I was selfish" enough of a "root cause"?
I kind of think it's a given... is it a "root cause"?
WH has always been on the selfish side (only now able to admit that to himself, he'd always thought of himself as very generous) he was virtually raised as an only child but never had a lot of positive parental attention (e.g. he was never "good enough" for his sperm donor of a father... even in adulthood, never "succesful enough" in terms of money and career) he was always volunteering to 'do' for others because then everyone said what a 'great guy' he was (external validation much?)
I think the "I was selfish" is a start... but only a start. I feel deeper digging is required by him for him to understand why he was so selfish and why/how that lead him to be unfaithful... am I asking the impossible?
Should I be content with the "I was selfish" and just let it go at that?
(he is 'working' on being less selfish btw)
Anyway, I hope I didn't confuse you with my answer. As a side-note, you mentioned you have someone in mind who you know will want you. This worries me. Keep those boundaries up tight, now more than ever! I know you could be saying this out of hurt, but the fact that you mentioned it means you've entertained the thought....please don't act on it. Hope that helped!
Is his answer enough for you? It doesn't sound like it is because it isn't. Finding his "WHY" is crucial to R and to his soul. It's great to admit he was selfish. But he needs to know WHY. What made it ok to betray himself and you? You can tell him that's enough of an answer, but I think it'll keep nagging at you because it's rugsweeping. His Why, when he eventually finds it, is his why. Don't expect it to make a lot of sense because it never will.
[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 11:50 PM, June 26th (Tuesday)]
Anyway, my WS was in a EA with coworker. He admits no PA and really calls what happened a slippery slope that was possibly headed somewhere worse. I cannot find any proof of anything else, but they work together and travel together. The opportunity was/is there and the company pays for it. So I would never be able to find anything charged on our personal bills etc...
My question is really that he is trying. He has cut as much contact with this bimbo as he can. He gave me access to everything etc..., but I keep reading about WS with other phones, going underground. My question really is hypothetical... why would WS bother to do all these things, allow access to everything and try, but go underground? Why not just let the BS move on?
As far as your H working with the AP, even tho there's minimal contact and its professional -according to him- it's still contact. Is there any way your H could transfer to another department or better yet, another job?
1) Did you do things sexually with/for your AP, that you did NOT do with your S? If so, why?
2) Was your AP "in your league", physically? Were they more, less, or about the same, in terms of attractiveness, compared to your S?
ThornyRose & I have discussed these topics pertaining to our situation, but I'm wondering if there are common themes here. Here are my interpretations of her answers to these:
1) Yes... because their relationship was all about 'having fun'. They only shared the 'fun' side of each other, everything was rainbows and unicorns... she wanted the OM to know her as the Party Girl, willing to do whatever... so she did.
2) She never found the OM attractive in the 10+ years before, until they got emotionally involved, and then somehow her perception shifted, and she started finding him attractive. They even talked about it, and he made comments about being less attractive than me. He also offended her greatly one time by saying something like "I better get what I can from you, before you move on to a younger, better looking guy". But, basically, the A did not happen for sex or the PA, but primarily it was a very deep emotional bond they built. One built on fantasy, but at the time, real.
Thanks for any feedback, really interested in others responses.
1) Did you do things sexually with/for your AP, that you did NOT do with your S? If so, why?
No. Anything I did with the AP I had also done with my XH.
2) Was your AP "in your league", physically?
I'd say so.
Were they more, less, or about the same, in terms of attractiveness, compared to your S?
My XH and the AP are about as different, physically/looks-wise, as two men can be. Hair color, eye color, bone structure, body type/build...totally different. Completely objectively speaking, if both men were put side-by-side and a poll was taken, AP would probably be considered "better-looking" because his type of looks are more on the "conventionally attractive" side. But I would say---again, as objectively speaking as I can---that despite their differences they are about equal in attractiveness.
Subjectively speaking, from my biased viewpoint , I think my XH is more attractive. I won't say he's the handsomest man I've ever seen---Harrison Ford from the 80s/early 90s holds that honor ---but he is so very attractive to me.
I do think there is a lot to the thought that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," and that the closer you are to someone emotionally, the more physically attractive that person becomes to you. It has happened to me over the years. I have dated some objectively UNattractive men, but when I was involved with them and mentally/emotionally attracted to them, their physical attractiveness "rose" in my eyes to match that view.
Hope that helps.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
We all struggle constantly with the Why did you do this? question. All of the answers seem to come back to things that really could be said of a lot of people. We're all selfish sometimes although, of course, there are degrees of selfish behavior, but selfishness exists in all of us. Most of us have FOO issues--I certainly do. Most of us like to hear others tell us we're great, etc. I think that probably the potential to be tempted to enter a relationship with another person who finds us appealing is always there. All marriages/relationships go through difficult or down times, someone gets sick, children require extra attention, a problem arises at work, etc. Everyone goes through times when they are simply NOT going to be the center of the universe for everyone around them.
So here's my question: Why didn't you NOT do it?
Did you consider yourself a person with integrity? Did you consider yourself committed to your spouse, your family? Did you think that you were a loyal and honorable person in general? Were you religious?
In short, where were all the checks and balances in your mind that might have stopped you when you decided to have an affair? Did you struggle with yourself? Did your integrity or commitment to your family ever come into your mind?
What happened in your head to all of those things when you decided to have an A?
Please understand that I'm not indicting anyone. This has just become as big a question to me as the Why did you DO it? question. For me, the Why didn't you NOT do it? question may be even more important. Anyone can have a moment of temptation, but if there aren't any balancing factors, then it begins to seem like the A was inevitable because there was nothing inside to stop it.
If anyone has insight into what happened to their internal values when they decided to have an A, I'd be most appreciative for your perspective.
Thanks for participating in this thread! It's so helpful that you're willing to share your thoughts.
I've tried to find the link that makes WS's who they are and, I never was able to discover something solid. Plenty of BS's went through a lot of crap in their lives and they chose not to cheat. Some WS's may have an unknown or unaddressed mental issues (not an excuse for the A)along with whatever else is going on. I gave up. I felt like I did everything and gave everything and was ran over and taken advantage of (I'm not speaking solely on how I felt my H treated me but everyone else in my life as well.) etc, etc and I simply gave up. Still doesn't excuse what I did, but that's where I "snapped".
I had had people in the past try to make a pass at me and I stood firmly on my beliefs against A's and thought about my H. However, I just ended up breaking. The cracks in the wall were there for a long, long time, I just dismissed them or ignored them until the dam broke. Hope that made some sense?
[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 11:24 PM, June 27th (Wednesday)]
Finding his "WHY" is crucial to R and to his soul. It's great to admit he was selfish. But he needs to know WHY. What made it ok to betray himself and you?
I feel he needs to look deeper too but he's satisfied with "I was selfish" as his "why" (which leaves me feeling like saying... "thank you, Captain Obvious!")
WH refuses point blank to go to IC (thinks it's a load of poppycock) so I guess that leaves me... nowhere in terms of understanding.
If you had a delay in answering your spouses questions regarding the A why?
My WH has me ask my questions via e-mails so he can think about his answers and try to be as truthful as possible. He is a busy man and I understand that. However, when he had several hours of on-line time and didn't answer my questions several times it gets me to thinking. I don't know if it is he is still thinking and trying to remember or if he is still hiding stuff. I get the feeling this time he is hiding something and avoiding answering my questions. Either that or I am so hyper sensitive person now who gets impatient after a few days.
Thank you ahead of time for answering. It is nice to know you all scan the messages looking for our questions and answer them. It helps hearing the different perspectives too!