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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 6
PanicAttack53
♂ Member
Member # 34195
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, August 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need some help on an issue that's been really bothering me of late.

WW keeps telling me that she has forgiven herself for her A. She reached this understanding in IC. Please excuse this next part...(WHAT!? WTF!?)

Sorry but I had to get that out. What's bothering me is that I don't see how she gets to forgive herself when I'm still suffering through this shitty mess she made. My feeling is that the forgiveness term shouldn't be used until I reach a point where I can forgive her. Then she can forgive herself all she wants.

Am I wrong here? Is it normal and/or healthy for a WS to forgive them self before the BS is healed? Please don't hold back, I really need to know, even if it takes a 2x4. Thanks in advance.

P.s. Just some additional info to save time. WW has been doing all the right things other than this. She owns her shit, is remorseful, 100% transparent, willing to talk and answer my questions whenever I need to etc.. etc...


Me-BH Her-XWW | B/ 60 | D final on 10/1/13 I'm Lovin' life again!
Rest of the story really doesn't matter any more.
“Realize deeply that the present moment is all you have.” ― Eckhart Tolle

Posts: 868 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Midwest
kchip
♂ Member
Member # 36365
Default  Posted: 3:03 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Its been 6 weeks since Dday. I have been offering R for 5. WW has been 2 MC sessions, both were 'bumpy' and last week she wasn't willing to commit to coming back for a 3rd.

The A was 18m - 2y. She will not tell me when it started exactly. She will not tell me anything. I found over 200 emails that go back to late 2010. Thousands and thousands of texts from the last 12 months.

Does this sound like fog or is she to far gone and wants D? She will not say it, but when i ask her to say she wants to work things out, she refuses to say that too. She will not say she loves me either.


Me: BH (42)
2 boys, age 10/7
D Day: July 15, 2012
Status: DIVORCING
You know that movie, Sleeping With the Enemy? Well I am Julia Roberts in that one......sighhhh
"When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change"

Posts: 471 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: FL
curiouswiz
♀ Member
Member # 34405
Default  Posted: 8:17 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How can a grown man (WH) call the AP over 100 times in the course of the day? When she decides to answer the calls last anywhere from one minute to half an hour.

I know she's playing him, it's been her job all of her adult and teen years. So it feels (to me) that she has him calling and calling so that he's desperate to hear from her. Her sister has told me she will dump him once all the money is gone. She's done this many times.

It's tough for me to hang on because I know that if I sell our homes and assets she will happily help him spend his half and then move on. I have my antique car for sale. His antique car is sitting here and not for sale. I'm giving up everything. He's sitting in self pity in our city home and longing for her.

She's 29 and he believes she 39. I KNOW she's 29. I've seen her arrest records and she's a felon. I can't believe she isn't locked up for the 3rd time by now. How do these people go and do these things and get away with it?

Really 100 (or more) calls in one day? It's like they are 12. How does a WH justify making all of those calls? I was lucky to get one call a day if we had to spend the time apart for whatever reason. Don't WH's see how juvenile it is? Is the luuurrvve really that strong?


God bless us, everyone.

Posts: 600 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Boston
WalkinOnEggshelz
♀ Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PanicAttack,

Forgiveness of self really should be a separate issue than your forgiveness of her. I understand the difficulty of separating them however, because I personally struggle with self forgiveness myself and am questioning whether or not it relies on my BH.

That being said, I know how frustrating it can be when you see your WS in a different place than you are. I just want to point out that she isn't necessarily on the same timeline that you are. While you are still in investigative mode and processing all of it, she is the one that holds all of the information. She doesn't need to investigate therefor she can jump straight to processing. See what I mean? She may always appear to be a step ahead. While all of the information is new to you, she has had it for some time.

The way to look at it more objectively is to ask some questions. You say she has been doing everything right. When you discuss the A and specific behaviors regarding what led her there, does she really own those actions? Does she become shameful? Or does she accept those actions for what they are and demonstrate true change? Does she have full ownership? Or does she become defensive still about particular things? I would say that if she is still in any kind of shame cycle or becomes defensive at all, she probably hasn't truly forgiven herself. Can she be in the process of doing so? Absolutely. For me personally, I think forgiveness comes in small doses from both parties until one day you realize you're there.

Ask yourself why it upsets you do much. Is it because you feel it let's her off the hook? Exonerates her? If so, ask her what forgiving herself means to her. Is it because you are still in so much pain? Unfortunately people do heal at different rates and like I said, she has had all of the information much longer than you. Is it because there is a part of you that resents that she can be further along? Is it a combination of all the above?

HT had a similar reaction when my therapist told me I could start coming to her on an as needed basis. That she felt I was in a good place and had worked through my stuff. Some of the questions I have given you helped us through that. Bottom line is there is an unfairness to it all. But you both need to understand what it truly means to each of you so you can understand it.

Hope this helps.
WOES


Me: WS 41
Him: BH 42 (holdingtogether)
M: 17 years, together 21
2 Daughters: 12 and 9
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 493 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
WalkinOnEggshelz
♀ Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kchip,

I have been reading up on your situation. We have similar stories in the fact that I am FWW of a recovering alcoholic. I can tell you that from this perspective, she is blame shifting. She has used your alcoholism to justify her behaviors. Due to the fact that you are trying to remain sober, it is quite possible she is in wait and see mode. She could very well be non-committal because she is waiting to see if you fall off the wagon. By what you have described of her behaviors, she feels a sense of entitlement and righteousness. She doesn't think she is the one with the problem and the fact that she is surrounding herself with supporters in this thinking isn't helping the situation.

Until she is able to see that it was her own behavior that led her down this path she is still "foggy". At the moment, there hasn't been much at stake for her. She still has her team of supporters, she still has you. She hasn't lost anything so to speak. She has no idea what she has risked. Nothing has shaken her outside of the fantasy bubble she is currently living in.

If your MC began to hold her responsible for her actions, I can see why she wouldn't want to continue going. It seems pretty clear she does not want to look within herself. Doing so is ugly and painful. The easier road is to put the blame elsewhere.

Is she far too gone? It's hard to say. Honestly, i needed the help if my BH to see what the was. To see how unhealthy it was. To see what my part was. And it wasn't until I was certain that I lost him for good that I started to come around.


Me: WS 41
Him: BH 42 (holdingtogether)
M: 17 years, together 21
2 Daughters: 12 and 9
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 493 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
kchip
♂ Member
Member # 36365
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for this.

She is supposed to go to IC wed. I have waived off any more MC. She needs the IC no matter what.

As for my alcoholism, I am a garden variety drunk. I jumped in an got a sponsor at my 1st meeting. This is without a doubt a lifetime LOW. I feel that I've hit bottom head first and want nothing more than to straighten my life out. I also have been told not to make any big decisions and I think I will heed this advice. I'm not going anywhere and I simply have to turn my life over to my higher power and trust in that. No matter what.


Me: BH (42)
2 boys, age 10/7
D Day: July 15, 2012
Status: DIVORCING
You know that movie, Sleeping With the Enemy? Well I am Julia Roberts in that one......sighhhh
"When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change"

Posts: 471 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: FL
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

curiouswiz,

Really 100 (or more) calls in one day? It's like they are 12. How does a WH justify making all of those calls? I was lucky to get one call a day if we had to spend the time apart for whatever reason. Don't WH's see how juvenile it is? Is the luuurrvve really that strong?

Unfortunately, your WH doesn't see how juvenile it is. The "luuurrvve" is limerence at best. A WS in the middle of limerence is not going to be able to see reason very easily.

Have you shown him the arrest records? Could you print off the info from Wiki regarding limerence for him to read?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
curiouswiz
♀ Member
Member # 34405
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for responding Baxtersbff; I've told myself to do just that, print out all my information and send it to him along with some of the pain and advice here in SI.

Guess I'll have to stop lurking here so much and get my printer running and out from under that pile on the desk that I'm ignoring!

He's so far gone I really don't recognize him and his attempt at suicide is taking to damn long! Heh. Sad, I know. I've told him as much too. He's been saying I'm killing myself for nearly a year. So, get it over with will ya pal?! I know. Not funny. Wish it was. Thanks again.


God bless us, everyone.

Posts: 600 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Boston
PanicAttack53
♂ Member
Member # 34195
Default  Posted: 5:47 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks WOES! Everything you said really made sense to me and gave me loads of food for thought. Especially the questions for myself and in particular this one:

Is it because there is a part of you that resents that she can be further along?

While I have worked though a lot of the anger about her A in my IC, I now realize that she is in fact further along than I am with regard to FOO issues an feeling better about herself.

When she said she had forgiven herself, I triggered because it sounded to me like it was all about her again. I do resent that she is feeling better while I'm still in pain and struggling to understand it all. Now at least I know what it is that's bothering me and I can address it in IC.

Once again, thank you!


Me-BH Her-XWW | B/ 60 | D final on 10/1/13 I'm Lovin' life again!
Rest of the story really doesn't matter any more.
“Realize deeply that the present moment is all you have.” ― Eckhart Tolle

Posts: 868 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Midwest
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:16 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

scangel13,

The "love" your WH professed for/to the OW is not a real love. Some WS can snap out of the A in the space of a second. Others, might take months or years. It really is up to the individual WS. And really, the BS in that particular situation will be the best judge of what is happening.

To the "love" and what that means...it is best summed up by the term limerence. Google it and just read.

This is a bit contentious, so bear with me. Many folks on SI say that the feelings and emotions of an A are not real. I think in general we would all agree with that statement. But, if they were not real, then why are we here? To the WS in an A, the feelings and emotions are absolutely real. Is it really love? No. It is a feeling that makes the WS feel good and enables them to run away from the reality of life.

So, it comes down to the individual WS. Are they able to address their fears? Are they able to admit to their mistakes? Can they put some effort into the introspection required to figure out why the hell they went down that road?

As the BS, I think you have a right (maybe even a sort of responsibility) to challenge him on this. I doesn't have to be a confrontation or a big hullabaloo, but it just has to be some honest conversation about whether he understands what he did, why he did it, and the impact it has had on you.

Is he up to that challenge?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nlove,

The A, the fallout, the move, the healing, the R...I can't imagine what I would have lost...

Suffice it to say, the MOW is exactly where I don't want to be. I know my situation is a bit different than some others, but the main thing is that I moved on from where I was, and I have known for many years that I would never move back. It is pretty clear now.

What is also clear is that I am who I am now because of my BW. That may sound "not quite right" in some circles, but for me it is the truth and it is something that I am happy and grateful for.

I would have lost the person who understands me better than anyone else. I would have lost the respect of my kids and my family. I would probably of lost my job. I know you aren't asking about $$$, but I would probably have gone bankrupt.

It would have, and almost did, cost me my identity.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Phoenix,

I agree with SLHim, that these words sound awesome.

What does it mean when WW tells me that she's not going to feel like a victim anymore and that she is wrong to blame me for what has happened in her life?

As a WS, being able to let go of the victim mentality is a step toward taking responsibility for your own actions and choices.

I know I struggled with it for a long time. I knew I had made these choices, but I felt it must have been someone else's fault. So I was able to carry that around for a long time, which allowed me to not take full responsibility for what I had done.

At some point, it was just plain undeniable. Sure, my parents may not have been there for me in the way I needed as a child. Sure, people had manipulated me in this way or that. But at the end of the day, it was my choice to continue to do what I had always done in ways of coping, and I just kept doing what I had always done, digging the hole deeper.

Your WW is at that point now (hopefully) where she is giving up her defenses. She is at that point of being able to admit she is wrong and is willing (hopefully) to trust that whatever happens will be the best for both you and her. I would suspect that she is hoping you will be there with her in the end, but she may also understand that you may not be there too.

Do you have an update for us?


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cannaman,

Did you lie to your BS when it came to details about your A you felt may hurt your BS further? I.e. Was the sex good, etc...
No...I didn't lie...Just kidding...

Seriously though, most of us did lie. Only a couple I've read about didn't lie.

And yes, the reason a WS will use to lie is to not hurt the BS further. There is some truth in that, but the WS doesn't understand the the mindmovies are worse, the unknown is agonizing. All the WS knows is that they did wrong and they don't want to admit how much of an idiot they were. So, the lies just seem like the easier path.

I lied to my BW. She knows it.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:42 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

frozentear,

How did being sexually physical with your BS make you feel and did it make you recoil or try to reconnect with your BS in that area of your relationship during the R period?

Are you talking about HB? or just the act of becoming intimate with your BS after d-day?

I don't, and won't, get into details like this, but I will say that the stage of "recoil" was there, prior to really, finally committing to R. Head up my ass, in the fog, pick whatever term fits...

The period of true reconnection was when R really started.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
BaxtersBFF
♂ Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, August 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lastin12,

My question is did you disclose everything when asked? If so, why? If you didn't, why? Everything I’m reading says if I ask for the info he should give it… He says everything he's reading and hearing from all the recovering SA says not to… I don’t know!!!!! ANY advice will help… So confusing! Thank you in advance!!

It just pisses me off so much when these situations happen. Who the hell does this IC think they are in telling you what you need to heal?!? If you need the information, then he should give it. Plain and simple.


Have you ever asked him to read this?
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp

You aren't nuts. You are entitled to the answers you seek regarding when, who, how many. If that is what you need to heal, then that is it. He doesn't get to tell you what you need. His lack of telling is just continued self-protection and continued enabling of not taking responsibility for what he has done to you.

There is a post by another member which I read today that might get your point across. I hope she doesn't mind me posting the link here...http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=468308&HL=34372


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6048 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
lastin12
♀ Member
Member # 34709
Default  Posted: 1:18 AM, August 27th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BaxtersBFF.. thanks for the feedback and good reads.

I know, I can't believe his counselor is saying that too. Who know's maybe she's not telling him that... Although, we went to several MC sessions and there was one point where I called him out on a few lies and things I recently found in his email account (from the past). I finally wanted to hear the truth from him and thought maybe he would feel safe and be honest. Nope, I didn't get anything from him. The counselor actually told me that I needed to stop digging and asked me what it was going to help by hearing what has really gone on in the past. WTF?!? I was so pissed after that session. I felt like it gave him strength.

He wants to reconcile badly and he recently said when he gets to a certain point in his recovery, he'll disclose and answer my questions. I told him I want answers now and then I will decide if I can move forward. He just doesn't understand. He's just used to me bending over backwards for him and going with what he wants. Not this time, I can't. Obviously, his way is not working.

He wants to find a new MC because I told him I won't go back to the last one. I'm not even sure if we should go... who knows. I'm just trying to take this one day at a time.


Posts: 95 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: New York
nopeace
♀ New Member
Member # 36389
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, August 27th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To stilovinghim and nothingelsematters: I did not confront about the memory stick, I just deleted everything on it and put it back where I found it. It has been several days and he has not mentioned it. I am not sure if I want to confront or deny when he does find it.

He was blaming me for the affair from day 1 but that changed in our last conversation and he finally said "you are right, this is all my fault." He said it was his choice and they were his actions and thus realizes it was his fault. I never felt at fault. I feel that I made mistakes and contributed greatly to the problems in our marriage but not the affair.

On Saturday we talked and it turned into an argument. I told him if he wants her, to clear out the bank account and just go. Life would be better alone with the kids and no money than being here with someone who doesn't love me.

Him being passive agressive... he completely shut down.

We had a wedding to go to that night, without the kids. We both had some wine and after a while he said "I was really upset with you today because you still don't believe me or trust me." He said "how could you think I want to leave you and the children to be with her? I DON'T WANT HER. I want my family."

The next day I decided to "trust" him. I guess it is not really trust, it is just telling myself to STOP. I am losing my mind and depression is setting in big time - whenever I am not so angry I could break everything in the house. It is time to just let this go and see what happens.

Every time he does something suspicious, I am just telling myself to stop thinking and just let it be. If he is still in the A, I will keep searching the computer and eventually I will figure it out like I did before, but this time I have an arsenal of information to work with instead of sitting there denying it like I did before.


ME -BW 43
HIM -WH 36
DDay 26 April, 2012
2nd DDay 14 May, 2012
Online affair for 6 months
1 night in a hotel together
2 children boy/girl twins 12 yrs
Trying to find myself again.

Posts: 11 | Registered: Aug 2012
sunflower01
Member
Member # 35847
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, August 27th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello there..I'm not sure where this question belongs..it's either LTA or this one or double betrayal. But I figure maybe a WS can answer either way.

My question is..How can WH have a long time affair..6 yrs and tell me he never once had any type of emotional feelings for OW? I know it shouldn't matter since we are divorcing, but, I just really can't wrap my mind around it. He doesn't talk about the affair at all and quite frankley I'm tired of discussing things with him cause it gets me nowhere and really it's been like that since DDay.

I hope someone here can make sense out of this for me. Thanks in advance.


Me BS: 35
XWS: 35
OP: 30
DD: 5/30/2012
Length of Affair: 6 yrs w/ my BF
DIVORCED

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: sunflower01
curiouswiz
♀ Member
Member # 34405
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, August 27th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BS here..Thanks for pointing me to the wiki limerance articles. After reading it I felt struck again. If WH is having these feelings...holy crap Batman! I'm sure he is.

I was set to print it out but after reading it I fear it will validate his feelings for her. It seems to me that she wrote the handbook for manipulating men.

So, my question..Is it a good idea to send that if it validates his emotions???

I'm so screwed up, 8 months, nearly nine and still so painful. I don't think I'd have made it this far without this "tribe" so any and all responses will be welcomed.

I'm sorry I posted this in the wrong forum earlier...lesson learned.


God bless us, everyone.

Posts: 600 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Boston
phoenix54
♂ Member
Member # 36574
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, August 27th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why is it so difficult for my WW to understand that I do not trust her and that trust takes a long time to rebuild?

She gets very frustrated and insists that her behavior has been trustworthy.


BH: 45 (me)
WW: 43
11 month PA/EA
4 children
D-day: 5/4/12
Married: 17 years
Trying to reconcile

Posts: 436 | Registered: Aug 2012
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