Thank you all for your kindness. It means a great deal to me during this difficult time...
Never in a million years did I think I'd end up here. And I hate it. And I hate my WH for bringing me here.
First, Ghostwalker do get out as soon as you can. I know from experience with my XH that verbal abuse will eat away at your soul until you have nothing left. And it happens when you aren't looking. You THINK you are fighting it because you KNOW it's not true, but it eats at you in the dark and it never goes away. I can still hear as clear as day my XH telling me I am "A worthless piece of shit." I will never stop hearing those words and we've been D for 8 years and S for 10.
I am struggling with my WH's SA. We both agree that he is SA but where we live there are NO CSAT's and no 12-step groups. I am going to Al-anon tonight (WH is 20 years sober alcoholic as well) and hope that will help.
I am too ashamed to tell most of my friends/family. They all think he is such a great guy (and I did too!) and I don't really want any of them to think of him as this depraved pervert (though I guess he is). It's so hard!
He is definitely remorseful and doing everything he should be doing, but I am still struggling. I know that the norm is for there to be lies and lies and lies. But he insists that he only had 4 in person CL encounters and the 1 time with his ex-wife. He admits to lots of porn and lots of email correspondence talking about hooking up, but that most of the time he would just masturbate and then stop the contact before the meeting was ever accomplished. The 4 encounters were with transvestites because he rationalized to himself that it wasn't as bad if he wasn't cheating with women.
We've been making love but the last time he started talking dirty to me, nothing major but it still make me want to crawl out of my skin. I was SO grossed out I almost cried. When I told him the next day he was very ashamed and sorry.
Like I said, he is doing everything right, and swears that I know everything. But I know that this isn't the usual.
I am just rambling. Thanks for giving me a safe place to vent.
HNF, I have been following your story and I admire you SO much.
T2B, I understand your feelings but I re-iterate what I said above about verbal abuse. Especially in front of your kids. After our D, when he didn't have me to abuse any longer my XH started in on my teenage daughter. Telling her to forget about going to college because she was "too stupid" and telling her to give up her dream to live in San Diego because she'd never make it. I had to "rescue" her in the middle of the night to get her away from him. In the process she missed her prom and graduating with her class because of her father. I would cheerfully strangle him if I saw him.
Anyway, HUGS to each and every one of you. Your posting here is truly helping me. I appreciate you all so much.
[This message edited by CheaterMagnet at 5:35 PM, November 4th (Friday)]
Outsource as much of the meal as possible. Even local grocery stores will often sell prepared fully cooked T-day meals you just have to heat up, if catering or eating at a restaurant is not possible. Or if they are all coming from local areas, pot luck it.
You can still go to a hotel or sleep elsewhere locally, if you can afford it, if he won't go. Or stay at a friend's, make up a story about paint fumes or something, say you are fixing up the house for company. And go back during the day or whenever WH is gone to get done what you need to get done to host. Even if you only do this one night, it makes a statement to WH, especially if he won't get out on his own.
Thinking of you mama. I'd go batshit crazy if I had to host a Tday dinner while my WH was doing that. I'd go crazy now, LOL, I can barely feed everybody every day.
Thanks for the support, hath and others. XOXO
I am just so freaked out. WH swears he is straight. That the CD encounters made him feel less like he was cheating (since they weren't women) and that he was disgusted by his behavior.
Only your Spouse knows for sure. Is it the truth? That is the ultimate question.
My H has been going to an ABS, which I have nicknamed, Kinky's.
At first I thought it was just a regular ABS. BUT I noticed he would spend up to an hr in there.
I got the nerve to go in and the place where the videos is small. There are arcades in the back room where you can view porn.
Since I was only able to get limited information about the place, I hired a PI.
What the PI found out is within those arcades is a partition window where the participants can jerk off together while viewing their videos. This is from the front entrance of the building, which happens to be on a main road for all to see who comes and goes in that place (one of the main complaints on a review I read about it online). There is a back entrance, which only regulars or those that pay under the table can get into and there they have glory holes (holes in partitions and the guys can get their members serviced!) You can't see who is on the other side.
Well, I am mentioning all of this because it is obvious that the clientele is men. They did tell the PI that they tried to get women in to do the BJ but well, they didn't get rave reviews so they kept with the men..cause well, men know what men like!
In the times, I actually went and watched I never saw H go to the back area. It is possible he did but I have no way of knowing at this point.
Bottomline is...It put a BIG question mark in my head...is he GAY? is he BI?
I am seeing a SCAT and she tells me that not necessarily so. Todays trend (and I noticed this trend alot with HS and college kids) is to experiment with the same sex. They are not gay, bi but just acting out cause well...because they can and it is different..taboo.
SO, while my H adamantely claims he is not GAY..is insulted that I would even think such a thing after knowing him for 25 yrs...I just don't know what to think...I thought I knew you too buddy!!
As someone else posted on JFO form..Bigger I believe...I need to know that before I can make any other decisions. You know what I mean...if he is gay...well, that is a done deal. If he is BI or curious, acting out SA...depends on how he will handle this..will he admit and get help, do the work or not.
In the meantime. It doesn't define me. I need to work on me and keep on trucking..
Hang in there and keep posting.
BTW: I am so tempted to sit in front of the place and yell out I am going to tell your spouse as these guys walk out!!
[This message edited by cheetabump at 10:17 PM, November 4th (Friday)]
The boundaries I most often see are things like no physical contact and in house separations.
I've also seen boundaries where someone will state that are going to a hotel for a night or having a day a the spa, paid for by the addict.
My situation is different in though, in that my husband is in recovery and wanted to stop his behavior.
My boundaries are slip= visit to CSAT and any specific recovery work needed (Recovery is now just integrated with normal living)..Relapse=divorce.
I also realize that these won't work for everyone. I prefer simplicity when dealing with my husband's addiction.
CheaterMagnet, IDK if CD has any special implications on SA. There are lots of people into CD that are not SA, and not gay, so I would think in and of itself it does not mean he's gay. Just like being SA does not mean he's gay. But there are many other things at work, right, and you don't have all the answers so who knows. Sorry if that's not helpful, LOL. It is what it is.
Ghost, totally understand. Hope you can keep it together until then. Hang in there, the light is at the end of the tunnel.
Plains, IDK about that diagnosis specifically, but I do know that if you are an addict of any kind you are likely to have multiple addictions. And hop from one to another to avoid hitting bottom with any particular one. They tell me in our SA class that you have to address all the addictions at once or you will never break the cycle.
IRN, I like your approach. I think I may take it as well. Even if he doesn't have a CSAT at the moment, I think I'm going to force the issue. I don't see how I can live an authentic life any other way.
I am a bit down today. Group class was a little depressing, I had to cop to a lot of behaviors I have developed in the past year that I don't like. And admit my new reality. Not fun. Now I get to accept it and figure out what I *can* do as a result. Bleah.
I'm so sorry, no words of wisdom, just tons of empathy. I'll be thinking of you and sending tons of good thoughts your way. Hang in there and please try to take good care of yourself. You WILL get through all of this!
He is very unable to get past the first three steps; admitting powerlessness, giving himself to a higher power, and be willing to turn his will over to that higher power. IMHO that is key to addictions and key to recovery. All addictions are about isolation and control. They have no control of parts of their life, and their emotions, and they do not know how to deal with or express any emotion (except anger in the case of my WH) So they isolate in the addiction or the fantasy life of it, the control you (they think) by their hiding it from you, and eventually they do become out of control, although they think they are.
After the last and final D Day, when I found the first slip, that's when I realized how MUCH the addiction controlled him. I was still seeing my husband, the man I married and to some extent, still tried to rely and lean on, and he wasn't there. He had been replaced by this addict. He truly COULD NOT control it.
And until he can admit that, truly truly admit that, he's still isolating. And won't get well.
So he's begun attending an off-shoot class to the 12 step meeting designed to help those with this same issue. And really work to overcome this stubborn, typically male, frustratingly hard-headed attitude that asking for help, admitting you NEED help, does not emasculate you.
Another example. His CSAT wants us to do a check-in each day, 4 parts. One part, is to ask each other for something. Like, ask your partner to pick up your favorite candy bar, or ask him/her for a back rub. Each time we do this he says, I don't NEED anything, I can't think of anything to ask of you. He refuses to ask for help. I'm pushing it, because I think this is also key to his Recovery. He isn't alone in his dark thoughts, he can and should learn to ask for help.
I'm rambling now, but I do believe that is why so many people, especially men, fall into the addiction trap. They don't feel connected and won't BE connected. It's sad.
SK, what are the four points in your check in? I'm curious. And for what it's worth, I'm sure WH has the same issues with the first three steps too. I really don't know, he hasn't shared about the meetings that much with me yet.
He got mad at me today, because shortly after I woke up (and had not had my coffee LOL) he came in with a new shirt. I asked where it came from, and he said I gave him the stinkeye about it. Got all pissy about how he bought it while I was away, with our 3YO in tow, that he had already told me about it. I confronted him later about it, said I have the right to question anything, he does not have the right to be pissy about it. He said he was just surprised I asked about it when he'd already told me, etc. and it was not reasonable to expect he NOT react in that situation. I told him I had the right to question anything, as many times as I wanted, and if he chose to react that way fine but he was sabotaging his own trust tank with me. I wasn't the one that had to regain trust, he was. So he was grumbly but more compliant after that. Made a point to show me all the other purchases he made while I was gone, LOL, so there wouldn't be any other incidents.
Sigh. Seriously? After all you've done, you are giving me crap about that? WTH?
2 Share something from your day
It could be something that feels big, or perhaps something that feels light or even trivial
3 Share something that is on your radar
A hope, dream, vision or concern. It could be something way off on the horizon, or something that is with you right now. EX: 'I'm really looking forward to our date on Friday. It's going to be nice to see my family next week because I've missed them.'
4 Share a request you have of your partner.
There may be times when you truly do not have anything to request, but you are strongly encouraged to come up with something. EX: Every time you call me from work it helps me feel loved and appreciated. Please keep doing that. I know I've asked this before, but I'd really like you to hear me.
Stinkeye, really? He's lucky he isn't walking around with permanent BLACK eyes, am I right?
I've been a little hesitant to keep posting on this thread, since my husband has moved out this time, to be with another sex addict, and I am going to divorce him. In other words, I have given up, as opposed to most of you.
But tonight, I went through his old personal email account. It's still open, but he hardly ever uses it. I couldn't believe what I found.
Basically, I have been in complete denial about how many times/cycles he has fallen into his addiction. The emails tell the whole story: all about Christmas of 2008 when we were visiting his parents and I found all sorts of stuff on his phone. We got into a vicious fight because he grabbed the phone from me and erased it. I basically tore his shirt trying to get to the phone.
Then I saw the lead-up to this incident. Dozens of emails from me, asking him where he was in the evenings, asking him when he was going to get home. Me going through his computer, him denying everything in multiple emails. Me going crazy not being able to prove what I knew in my heart was going on again.
Also, his rush to find a CSAT. His email to him, admitting he was a SA, admitting he was acting out, asking for help and saying that he had been through lots of therapy with normal therapists, but this time he wanted to get fully better so he could fully heal and move forward.
Then within a month or two, emails from his CSAT asking him why he was missing appts. More excuses. Then finally, one solitary email from the CSAT about six months later, saying he still wondered about my SAH and wondered if he was okay. My husband didn't bother to reply because obviously he wasn't okay.
He went back to this CSAT about 16 months later when I found more messages on his phone. That was about 18 months ago.
Then he was okay until this spring. And then, this time, all hell broke loose.
I couldn't bear to keep reading back to what happened before 2008. But seeing it all in emails was so painful: the fighting over his behavior, my desperate emails looking for him, his notes about how much he loved me and the kids, his pleading for yet another chance. His lies. His truths, too.
I don't know. It's just so sad. What I also saw in those emails was tons of tons of normalcy and happiness in between his acting out cycles (though for all I know, he was always acting out, and the bad times were just when I started getting suspicious). I guess I'll never know. But all in a sudden, I feel such incredible grief for my lost marriage, my children's lost dad, just everything. I was married to my husband for nearly my entire adult life. I depended on him for so many things each day. I'm just so so incredibly sad and feeling so terrible right now. I am pretty sure that my husband is going to come to a very bad end without me and our children in his lives. It's just a tragedy. And my children - I still haven't told them the truth, and their dad has been living elsewhere for two months. I think that until tonight, I was sort of in shock. Tomorrow I retain a lawyer. It's suddenly real. I've lost my husband for good this time, and my innocent little children have lost their dad.
I wish I could hug you IRL. Your pain reached out to me tonight, I can relate to how you feel in so many ways.
I really feel like a hypocrite tonight, everyone. I was working on my journal (private blog) & realized that I'm not detaching like I tell myself I am- like I need to. To the degree I need to. I'm still reaching out occasionally, asking him out on dates once in a while, being emotionally vulnerable. I guess I could pass it off as habit, but truthfully, I need to stop. According to the journal, I've told myself stop reaching out to him, stop carrying the job "sole emotional nurturer" at least twice before. My therapists have been telling me to stop carrying the load since last spring at least. And yet- as prepared as I am to move on, as much as I *have* truly let go, I still have occasional, almost reflexive, moments when I reach out to SAWH somehow. And typically I regret it later.
So in the interest of keeping myself honest, I wanted to post this here. As a kind of pledge, I guess. A reminder that a journey is made one step at a time.
Hugs to all~ Sabina
[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 1:01 AM, November 7th (Monday)]
"Live a life not an apology." Edward R.Murrow
"I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it."