Dead on as always TMY. I think that is the most frustrating, seeing WH going through the whole process in a textbook manner, knowing what he will do/say before he does it, that he doesn't see it, and that there is not anything I can do about it or to change it. And also with my fellows at the group, seeing them put up with stuff they shouldn't. I want to tell some of them, you don't have kids (or kids at home), or the ones that have spouses that are directly negatively impacting their kids on purpose with their behavior, throw his ass out for a while, LOL. But then I step back and wonder if they think the same of me, WTF, she's doing all this other stuff, why won't she just dump him on the side of the road and never look back, ROFL. But I would like to think maybe I need to be there, even if I am not the textbook codep, to show these ladies they can do certain things in the realm of their control (STD testing, post nup, etc), and maybe they can show me things that are not immediately apparent to me ATM.
Goodness. No wonder I need coffee. Hee hee.
[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:23 AM, October 27th (Thursday)]
But Im not sure what to ask them and what basis on which to choose one. What are important things to ask?
I'm looking for one now too, and here is my criteria:
CSAT or working towards it. Already BTDT with MC with one that is not, I can see the diff.
Demeanor that appeals to me, that makes me feel comfortable to share my stuff. Like for example, two have presented at our classes, and one of them really speaks to me while the other grates me in a way I can't stand, LOL. Both are equally qualified but I would not make any progress with the other one, I know.
Available when I am available. This is proving harder than I thought, I need regular sessions same day/time so I can get a sitter. So many of them have to see people on the fly so quickly its nearly impossible to see someone regularly.
I'm sure in your case you would want to ask about the spiritual element. I know the ones I have seen in the classes thus far, have spoken about it in class but mostly addressed it in meditation and passages from Codependent No More, etc as opposed to more secular stuff.
Ask them what the typical MO of treating spouses is, if there is a particular plan, etc. If 12 step will be involved, if additional reading required, etc to get an idea from the materials they suggest influences their treatment.
I'd love to hear what the more seasoned people would say about selecting a CSAT. I'm just having so many issues getting one that *can* see me that all the other stuff kind of takes a back seat.
A CSAT or at LEAST an addiction specialist with significant experience with SA spouses is the way to go. And IMO one way to find a good one, for me is through the S-Anon network. We sort of know the nuances, which OC is empathetic, which one also has hours in the evening, which one actually address the issues, which one rambles...
I don't mean to be a broken record.
Hath...I seoond the the idea to keep an open mind (I know you are) about the co-dependent stuff. It actually didn't click with me until very recently. I fought it, didn't see it at all, until, surprisingly, our communication started to become healthier overall. It isn't full-blown or textbook, but it was there none-the-less. And seeing it helps me to stop it before it starts the pattern again.
Let me run something by you all. The spiritual aspect of recovery is SO troubling to my H, and yet I have come to believe that it is essential to his recovery. It's not the belief in a traditional god that is necessary, but the idea that SOMETHING is bigger than he is, that SOMETHING is more powerful. I think he has to recognize that he isn't in control and NEEDS help. Until then he sticks to the idea that his isolation is an acceptable way to deal with the addiction. He has to learn how to reach out in humility, or else he cannot build a support system, and he'll stay in the "white knuckling" stage.
Make sense? We did talk about it, I'm going with him to see his IC next week...I know we aren't supposed to be involved in HIS recovery, ours is where our focus should be, but hell, I don't want to be in an unhealthy marriage forever. I am getting old. Rapidly.
You all are amazing,
ScaredyKat, I've stated my position on the spiritual element previously and totally am with you on this. You don't have to believe in God to believe in the power of miracles. And WH is right there too. I know it's a stupid reference only someone with young kids would have, but it's like that scene in Finding Nemo where Dory and Nemo's Dad are hanging on the whale's tongue. Dory says it's time to let go. Nemo's dad asks, how do you know something bad isn't going to happen? And she says, I don't! That, ladies, is FAITH.
I don't think occasional involvement in your SA's counseling is harmful if handled right by the CSAT. I mean, it is a great opportunity for the CSAT to get some perspective and truth that they otherwise can't get from the compromised SA. I mean, if I didn't go see my WH's, we wouldn't be in the class now. I course I wish it was handled differently, but it was a bit of fateful intervention I think for it to happen, speaking of fate.
Ooh, and DrivingPast, now that I think of it that was the kind of talk I was getting at the MC when we stopped going. Except at that point it SA wasn't diagnosed, I was just supposed to move on and not dwell on the past. WTH? Three years of hookers and who knows what else and pretend like nothing happened? Yeah, CSAT definitely if you can get one, addiction specialist if not.
As a consequence, my husband never got the treatment he needed, and now his situation has deteriorated to the point of no return. And I feel like I wasn't taught the tools that I now understand thanks to COSA and a kind CSAT.
Many times, I find myself wishing we had gone to the right professionals seven years ago. So I hope you find a new and better professional - one that truly understands you, SA, and what spouses go through when they find out their husbands are acting out.
[This message edited by ChoosingHope at 9:29 AM, October 28th (Friday)]
Um, they got syphillis and died fairly young (or went insane from syphillis). And gave it to all their partners, so they died or went crazy young too and didn't really share their story as a result.
LOL. Can you tell I'm in a bit of a funk today? Somebody stop this ride, I want to get off.
Crazy is as crazy does. So a hearty case of syphillis will cause them to die, but must be a short drive to insanity w/SA.
Who I really feel sad for is the BSs. They were the ones who paid the price back then, and do now.
People did not talk about this. My SAH's family has several generations of this mess and I did not know about the family secret until AFTER the wedding. They worked hard to keep everything in order and looking normal. FIL was a minister for goodness sake. Totally insane- every one of SAH's F- nobody got out okay. That is what scares the crap out of me in dealing w/this.
I don't want to just get off the ride, I want a refund!
I think about the olden days too. Chances are, my husband would not have found a co-addict who was addicted to violent, degrading S&M sex AND who was a swinger. It was thousands of hours on the Internet that made him find this one person.
Sager, Sorry for your recent developments. Hope you are doing well as can be.
HNF: I am seeing a CSAT for myself. I too, have problems with that co-dependency title. My IC said I am not co-d but have some tendencies. I was glad to hear that cause I felt that I was not enabling his behaviour in the ways that they suggest. So, it was hard for me to figure out what my role if any was in this mess. While I am not enabling, I am having trouble finding my proper voice again.
That meaning, I used to voice my feelings, boundaries and was firm. Somewhere along the lines, these past few years the voice got lower and lower almost to the point of me stuffing unacceptable behaviour rather than deal.
So, I am working on this part now. I need to find me again.
I did go for my STD Monday! YEAH! I have no shame, guilt or anything. I just tell the Dr I want the tests and bamm it is done. I have a great Dr. What I have yet to do is express (where is that voice?) that I want H to do same.
I seem to be putting off examining my boundaries. I sort of know the main ones but trying to sort out the rest and (BOY) then the consequences. I think I am just not ready to "fight" the battle.
I am doing a good job tho detaching and going about my business. Had a small attack the other day and told him ILY...he was really taken by surprise. I dusted myself off and jumped back on the wagon.
The funny thing I noticed tho is he waits for me to say or do something before he will do same. It is like he is mirroring the 180 based on my actions. Anyone else experience this?
My CSAT wants me to participate in her group meetings. She feels it will help me know that I am not alone.
I asked her if she would do MC with us, that is if H even agrees. She said yes but then can't see me alone or him unless we stop MC. UGH..
I will add here...YES...Do get a CSAT for any counseling if you are dealing with any SA issues. I see night and day in the knowledge and skill in handling the issues!
H IC is not good for this. He told me in the past that I should leave him alone if he is just using porn for stress or whatnot! WTF..I even told him at a later time that the porn has esculated...still no real ah ha moment for this guy.
He returned a call to me the other day and I didn't pick up...one...wanted to make sure it was not a co-dependent move (LOL) by throwing it by my IC (she said no) and then I just don't know if it will do any good at this point. H knows that his IC called me back and asked if I spoke to him. I told him no, not yet.
I want to ask H if he told his IC what the latest findings we were arguing over. I have a feeling he didn't or made such light of it and is worried I will shed the light on that stuff.
At this point, I am doing nothing. I am not watching him, I am not questioning him...not really discussing anything other than bills, kids and weather!
Not sure if this is just a time out for me or am I scared of what my voice may bring up!?
Well, in any case, thanks for listening and even tho I did not address everyone here please know I have read your posts, said a prayer for each and everyone of you!!
[This message edited by cheetabump at 6:57 PM, October 28th (Friday)]
So my class this week was focusing on co-dep characteristics we have in ch. 4 of Co-dependent No More. I personally see one or two in each category pre-discovery, and tons of them post-discovery. So it disturbs me that while I don't feel like I am co-dep naturally I am becoming one due to my circumstances. I shared that in group and the group leader is excited to have a project in me, I can tell :giggle:.
Anyway, as a result of what was shared in discussion I decided to make a couple of changes in my life. Not to be resistant to buying things for me. Another lady and I joked about how we always bought generic soda guilted about it, while our spouses bought whatever they wanted. So I decided I'm not buying generic sodas any more. I also bought real whipped cream in a can for my daily coffee (okay multiple coffees LOL). Because that is what makes it taste better from the shop as opposed to making it at home. And I went to the victoria secret sale at our local outlet and bought all new underwear and bras, which has been sorely needed and put off since I had been pregnant or nursing from 2002-2010 and my sizes changed so much. So yay for me.
I tend to be too nice, according to my s-anon sisters. I have to learn to do more for myself. Like nice undies, and the smelly soap that I like. Good for you HHNF.
And the fact that his addiction has caused us to be less financially stable than we should be, that we can't do the things we would have been able to do in our retirement because of the money he spent when acting out? Well, I'm entitled to my anger, but I have to put that resentment behind. Although, more than a little, I was the one who patched up the financial quilt, (thus was co-dependent and enabling) I did it in ignorance and to protect myself and my family. Now I have to learn to live with the reality. Fortunately, it wasn't our undoing, and we won't be in a terrible position. But man, it makes me mad.
H turned himself in to the police on Friday. The court stuff went well and he and his lawyer thought they had dodged the media bullet. Unfortunately the Inspector General sent out a press release to all major news outlets. So it was on tv and in the newspaper (front page). I chose not to look at any of it. Knew it wouldn't do me any good. I also advised the kids to do the same, but they are too old for me to control what they choose to do.
The good news is that supportive friends and relatives have been coming out of the woodwork. Our church family was fabulous. I really feel I am surrounded by angels.
The only thing that is pissing me off is H STUPID family. I fb'd them to let them know what was going on and that their brother might need some support - even if it was that they thought he was an idiot... but there has been nothing but silence. Guess it just confirms that he was f*cked up before I met him.
Dialogue with the H has been opened up. Nothing big. Just short converstations about the immediate future and my need to make some decisions for the long term. But right now, I'm not thinking of anything but just this moment in time. It's the only way that i can stay sane.
Please keep praying for me and my kids... and if you can find it in your heart, my WH also.
So yesterday, WH and I talked about a little bit about our groups, specifically when we'd do homework and stuff for the next class. We are not supposed to discuss what happens in our group, or share our assignments and whatever. He had shared the week prior that he was confused about his assignment because the page numbers listed in it didn't jive so he wasn't sure if he did it correctly. So this week he mentioned it only meant he wound up doing half of this week's homework too so he was ahead of the game. That it would be a breeze because a lot of it didn't apply to him, just like last week.
And I should have left it at that. But no, dumbass I am, I asked what do you mean it doesn't apply? Thinking, maybe it meant something like relaying your childhood abuse (which he says he has none) or about his current relationship with his dad, who is dead. And he said something to the affect of addressing the causes/why that led to his escalation, that he didn't really have escalation and he acted out more because he had time/opportunity to do so. I had a flag raise up but was too sleep-deprived to process it fully at the time and didn't discuss it further. But now it is eating at me.
So clearly he's lying to himself and the group. Duh, he MADE time, not had time to kill. He MADE time while he was laid off, when I was working part time to pay the bills, lied about where he was going and spent money we didn't have to act out. He made time when he was otherwise needed at home, not because everyone was out and busy with their own things. And duh, did we not just go through this in our informal disclosure, and that it did involved more frequency as time went on and involved ED pills and whatever else.
So now what do I do? No, I'm not supposed to know about his assignments, and this is probably why. Yes, this is all textbook early recovery/bargaining/whatever, it's all normal and the path he must take before enlightenment, yada yada. Do I confront? Ignore? Bring up in group? Save for IC?
I'm so sorry Sager. My SA WH had tons of help/recovery available, also. We just thew our $$$$ away, our time away on counseling, intensives, etc. He snowed everyone and STILL won't get help. He's still f-ing prostitutes.
**I just found out today that the fucker ONCE AGAIN exposed our younger 17dd to his f-ing porn on the computer! She first caught him watching it 4 1/2 years ago when she was 12 which began our 1st D-Day.
My dd went on his laptop and the sites were shown via Google.He had been looking at his beloved Asian hooker sites. They just got the laptop back a few days ago from the shop!
So HARD! My dd is finishing out her senior school year there, living w/ my MIL & WH in L.A. because I had to move here to my mom's in N. Calif. last X-mas. No where to live in L.A.. WH & I have been separated for 2 years now. It's killing me her having to live w/ him right now. She was with me all summer. She will be here again for a month at X-mas & Easter and then graduate. BUT, I'm afraid something even worse will happen before then.
I'm beyond numb. Every 3-4 weeks I find out something he's done regarding his addiction...
I can't wait to divorce him...trying to get thru the school year & BRuptcy first.
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