Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
like us on facebook
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: jaamommy (44674)

Wayward Side Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Dear Remorseful WSes… It's your choice, too...
Skye
Member
Member # 325
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

While I truly respect your post, I, personally, struggle with saying my WS made a choice to stay. He never planned to leave. He made a choice to cheat.

I think it is very important for both the BS and the WS to choose to heal, but I can't give my WS kudos for choosing to stay. And to be fair to him, I do believe he feels he was given a gift to be allowed to stay.


Posts: 5617 | Registered: Jul 2002
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And to be fair to him, I do believe he feels he was given a gift to be allowed to stay.

Skye, you've posted many times your marriage and relationship are dead. Does he know that this gift is really him just being a renter?


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
trytoforgive
♀ Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Skye,

I do not know your situation, nor do I know the level of remorse of your husband. I also believe that the BS offering reconciliation is indeed a gift, but it is a gift that the WS must receive in order for reconciliation to even work.

Being "allowed to stay" and being in authentic, loving relationship are 2 completely different things. Again, I do not know if this is your situation or not, but I promise you, your husband CHOOSES to be co-parenting roommates.

If, as your posts indicate, your marriage is indeed dead, then you are both making a conscious choice to live in a dead marriage. Regardless of the sins of the WS, they do not have to choose a dead marriage. Nor do you...


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Regardless of the sins of the WS, they do not have to choose a dead marriage.

They may not know. Just as affairs can be kept hidden so too can this. Some would call the poetic justice and I'm not sure I disagree with that.

Sad truth...you can only make decisions with what you know and may be completely blindsided by what you don't...just as many BS's were with the affair.

That's why internal work is SO critical. As long as that remains your focus you'll be ok regardless.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That's why internal work is SO critical. As long as that remains your focus you'll be ok regardless.

I agree with this 100%. A friend of mine (who is the BS) will never get to internal peace because she's always so ready just to be right regardless of the situation. I feel sorry for her because she'll never fully have reconciliation in her life or feel complete.

I've really been enjoying this thread


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197180 | Registered: May 2002
Skye
Member
Member # 325
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uncertainone, my husband is not a renter--he's the owner and the banker. I'm the freeloader.

tryingtoforgive, I don't know if he is remorseful or not. I do know he never planned on leaving our marriage. That choice he made before he cheated, and has never changed his mind. I don't think he's given that option a thought ever.

I do not believe there is one road to healing, but do believe everyone should try to find their road.


Posts: 5617 | Registered: Jul 2002
MissesJai
♀ Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

never get to internal peace because she's always so ready just to be right regardless of the situation.
sadly, I know this dynamic all too well. I'm living with it. It's so very unfortunate.


FWW - 41
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5842 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do know he never planned on leaving our marriage.

Sounds like you both have. That's why I kind of wince when I see "they're still there which says a lot". Sometimes all it says is physical location.

Different paths for all for sure. Not that different definitions of healthy, though. Quite a different thing, that.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Want To Wake Up
♀ Member
Member # 31583
Default  Posted: 5:05 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know that I am quite ready to "thank" my WH for "staying" as he too never intended to leave (he was content to grab what he could on the side as long as I never found out)... perhaps once we truly begin R (he's a little slow with the whole "showing remorse", "getting it"and doing the "hard yards" IYKWIM)... I do know this Christmas I will be thanking those who give me gifts... I won't be thanking anyone for accepting a gift I offer them.


I guess it comes down to the fact that true R really is (and must be) a two-way street (it takes a while for a BS -me anyway- to get on board with that thought, I first have to work through all the pain... sorry, bit of a revelation here for me... I'm still working on me... then I can work on R)


Crap... now I have to go off and process this... but that's a good thing! Thanks



Me 50+
WH 50+ (SlowUptake)
DDay '09
Latest TT... Nov '13 (not a typo!)


One man’s “fruitless conflict” is another man’s “meaningful discussion”


Posts: 474 | Registered: Mar 2011
ShatteredOpal
♀ Member
Member # 27467
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, December 5th (Monday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like the perspective that this is a gift we are giving each other through our choices reconcile.

I know that opening up his heart is not really easy for him. He has not made himself vulnerable to scrutiny in the past. I am grateful for this opportunity to grow together.


BW-47, married 24 years, together 27
WH-49, has LTEA w/ExGF, 25 years (minor PA)
Final no contact 4-2010
2nd A- 10-1-11 through 11-3-11
D-day 11-3-11 through 11-6-11
PA- mainly kissing until the last night when they had sex.
R- so far so good

Posts: 220 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 4:49 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around my feelings on this one. Maybe it's my rational brain conflicting with my emotional brain that's causing the difficulty.

On one hand I really understand the breakthrough that would occur when you realize that it is your CHOICE to stay... to do the hard work and fix yourself and your marriage. Change can only happen when you want it to. If you feel that you aren't doing the work of your own volition then I imagine it is doomed to failure.

I can understand being proud of yourself for living an authentic life, fixing yourself and helping your husband heal. Those are all honorable things and there should certainly be pride for making the decision to turn away from poor choices and towards healthy ones.

What perplexes me is this idea that seems to start with the quote:

“You know, we would never be here had you not offered me the amazing gift of Reconciliation, but please remember that I chose to be here, too. I chose to do the hard work repairing the damage to myself and to you that has helped bring us to where we are today.”

and then it floats throughout the post. There seems to be an underlying statement that the BS owes a debt of gratitude for doing these things.

an often flippant response that resembles, “WELL! They CREATED the shit-pile, they damn well better clean the shit up!

I'm sorry, but I don't find this statement flippant at all. Okay... maybe the way it's written here is disrespectful but I think the meaning behind it has merit. I think a WS does owe their BS on some level. A promise was made to the BS that was broken whether it was marriage vows or a mutual decision of exclusivity in the relationship. A WS certainly can choose to walk away from their responsibility but that doesn't make the debt any less salient. Whether that debt is repaid or HOW it is repaid or whether it is pardoned differs from instance to instance.

I suppose, using a very minimalistic analogy... if someone owes me $5 and chooses to repay me, I would be thankful (in a general sense) that they chose not to stiff me. Am I grateful (towards them) that they repaid the debt though? Not really... it is something that was owed to me... I gave them $5 to use and they gave it back to me. The equation was equalized.

When a WS chooses to have an A they are creating an unequal equation. They can certainly make the choice to leave but if they make the choice to stay that equation has to be equalized in some way. I've heard frequently that it is a debt so large that it cannot be repaid... it has to be forgiven. I agree with this sentiment to a point... some of it does have to be forgiven but some of it also has to be repaid. I don't think true forgiveness can come until there is a concerted effort to ATTEMPT to repay the debt.

I'm off on a tangent a bit but here's the gist. I can get behind the rally cry that a WS should be proud of themselves for doing the hard work and making good decisions. I'm proud of my WW when she does these things too. I'm happy when she makes the decision to work to right the wrongs she has perpetrated. What I have real difficulty with is feeling like I owe her some debt of gratitude for fixing what she broke. Maybe that's not what was being conveyed so I apologize if I misunderstood.

Alexa


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
Hope24
♀ Member
Member # 9344
Default  Posted: 5:47 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What I have real difficulty with is feeling like I owe her some debt of gratitude for fixing what she broke.

That's not my interpretation of this thread, although I can understand why you would feel that way.

The gist of it, for me, is that we, WS, are empowered to make choices in spite of the heinous act we committed. It isn't uncommon for a WS to feel such shame for their affair that they stay in an unhealthy marriage because they think that's all they deserve.

That was the case with me.

I don't think a BS should be grateful that a WS decides to work on themselves and stay in the marriage. Not at all.

I do think it's important that a WS understand that they have the power to make choices and that they aren't destined to stay in a bad marriage out of guilt or shame.



She packed up her potential and all she had learned and headed out to change a few things.

Posts: 7605 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Poolside
caspers1wish
♀ Member
Member # 28720
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the latter part of this thread has been going off in the wrong direction for a while. The intent of the thread and the WS's who have posted on it have never indicated that we expect a "thank you" from our BS for giving us reconciliation or to thank us for staying. No where do I have any expectation of my BS. I work on me. I don't owe him, I owe myself.


Me - FWW (35)
Him - BH (34)
Kids - Ages 6, 8, 10
Married 13 years, together 18 years.
Last D-Day - November 2008

Posts: 759 | Registered: Jun 2010
MissesJai
♀ Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I work on me. I don't owe him, I owe myself
*nods emphatically*

I do think it's important that a WS understand that they have the power to make choices and that they aren't destined to stay in a bad marriage out of guilt or shame.
Indeed...exellent point.


FWW - 41
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5842 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
trytoforgive
♀ Member
Member # 27330
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alexa,

You have a hard road ahead. And you've had an unbearable road behind you. And you are surviving- everyday- putting one foot in front of the other. You choose everyday to stay. You choose everyday to love and raise a child that is not yours. That is your choice, and you are to be commended for it- that is not a choice that anyone would have expected you to make.

Please know that in no way, shape, or form was I implying that a BS should be "thankful" that their WS chooses to stay. That, in fact, is a ridiculous notion. Having said that, while we, as WSes, certainly should feel obligated to "clean up the shit pile" that we created, this may sound shitty or harsh, but we don’t have to. After doing the crime, in this circumstance, we are not required to “do the time.” Doing the time, in this instance, is our choice. And in all reality, we can choose to do the time with or without or marriages staying intact.

Some WSes choose to end their marriages and not do any work and run off into the sunset with their next partner- taking all of their internal sickness and fucked-up thinking with them. Some WSes choose to end their marriages and take the time to do the long, hard, work required to figure out why they are fucked up, figure out their fucked-up-edness, and come out on the other side, a healthy partner for their next relationship (if they ever have one). Some WSes choose to stay in body only- not doing any work on their insides, not doing any work on the marriage, and may very well end up cheating again. (This goes for BSes, too, btw. Some stay in body only and do nothing to heal themselves). Some WSes stay and do the hard work on themselves and do the work to help repair their marriages and their BSes and and their BSes so the painful work of working on them and healing their marriages together.

There are a million different scenarios, but the only one that has a healthy outcome is the WS owning their shit and coming out on the other side better. It may not heal the marriage, but it will heal us…

I think that the notion that a WS has made a choice, too, is one that really cannot be appreciated until some healing has been done. I don’t think that a BS is going to wake up, one week from d-day and say, “Gee, thanks for staying and trying, WS.” Marriage is a 2-way street. The BS staying and fixing destruction that was not of their making is to be appreciated and commended, but the WS that decides to face their shit head on, take full responsibility, and heal their shit is also a choice that is to be commended. It takes 2 people to people to make a relationship function in a healthy manner. It only takes you to make you better…


Me- W 38
Him- H 40
Long time lurker...Sometimes poster...
DDay 8/14/2009

DD 15
DS 10


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jan 2010
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there is some confusion on this thread between appreciation and thanking.

I'll throw a real life analogy out there.

My FWW has been working out diligently for several months. She looks great. I appreciate it. Do I thank her for it? Absolutely not. This is something she does for herself. I show her appreciation by making it a point to tell her on a regular basis how fantastic she looks, and that I'm proud of her. Thanking her for working out would be an insult to her.

Reversing the roles, it would be an insult to me if my FWW thanked me for going to IC and taking my meds, because I'm not as much of a pain in the ass anymore. I don't go to IC and take my meds to help her, I do it because it helps me. She shows me appreciation by recognizing the fact that I am healing and telling me that she is proud of me for taking the courage to make those steps and recognizing how it has improved our relationship.

Getting back to the point, I don't thank my wife for doing the hard work on herself, for attending IC sessions, for reading several books, for pinpointing her FOO issues, because this is something she is doing for herself. I appreciate her doing this, however, and I show that appreciation by telling her I'm proud of her, I'm proud of the progress she's made, and that I love her and will stay committed to her. All of these things she has done willfully for herself, and as a result it has helped save our marriage and preserve my love for her. Her choice.

I still have my choice. My choice is to continue to work on myself and love my wife and work on my marriage.

What it comes down to is that we're all grown ups here with no forced obligations outside of what we choose to do, BS's and WS's alike. No one can force you to get up each day, shower, feed your kids and go to work. You can choose not to do these things and suffer the consequences. You do these things because you want to, it's the right thing to do and provides you and your loved ones with a happier, more fulfilling and productive life.

Doing anything out of guilt, obligation or shame is pretty much guaranteed to result in resentment and unhappiness. I think some people, regardless of their BS or WS label, stay in their marriage out of guilt, obligation or shame, and they feel resentment and unhappiness as a result. It goes both ways.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 12:19 PM, December 6th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 6660 | Registered: Dec 2010
rollercoaster80
♀ Member
Member # 23412
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it is important for people to know that they choose to stay and that they have a choice.

For some this may not be the case, those that stay for financial reasons or for the kids or any other circumstance where they really feel they do not have a choice......this type of situation is very sad indeed.

I do appreciate the work my fws has done to change.

I also stay because I want to.


me 55 fbw
him 67 FWH/SA
married 32 years
together 31 years my whole adult life!
4 s, 1 stepd, 2 grand kids

multiple A's, 2 LTA's,multiple indescretions...before and throughout our marriage


Posts: 1047 | Registered: Mar 2009 | From: sarasota, fl
RKT429SS
♂ Member
Member # 28883
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, December 6th (Tuesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn, if this thread isn’t a mind fuck….

It truly is a fine example of all of us putting the shoe on the other foot, and that is commendable to all of you/us. To the WSs: Part of me is ticked as a BH trying to grasp the word ‘choice’ and it’s context in everyone’s use of it. Part of me wants to shake your hand for the passion (for lack of a better word) exhibited in the fixing and healing of both yourselves and us BS.

This is a very healthy, constructive conversation. My synapses hurt.


Me - BS 38
Her - WS 37
MOM - coworker,with 2 kids, EA&PA approx. 6 mo
Us Married 10 yrs (together 15 yrs)
1 girl, 1 boy
DDay 3.15.2010
Working on R

Posts: 216 | Registered: Jun 2010
alexa071
♂ Member
Member # 28881
Default  Posted: 4:44 AM, December 7th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TTF,

Thank you for your response... I think you communicated your position in a way that makes it much more palatable for me... not that you even had to take the time to do that. Let me explain why your first post was so much different to me.

When we are given the gift of even attempting to repair the damage, it is, indeed, a gift, but then the hard work starts.

This, to me, sounded dismissive. It was as though the choice to stay and offer R was a one time thing. It seemed to dismiss the fact that it is a daily, sometimes hourly struggle and decision to push the horrible thoughts aside and work to rebuild a M. The statement sounded like the "hard work" doesn't include the BS's constant choice to stay with the WS and allow someone that has hurt them so deeply back into a place where they have to be vulnerable to them again. It is in stark contrast to this:

And you are surviving- everyday- putting one foot in front of the other. You choose everyday to stay. You choose everyday to love and raise a child that is not yours. That is your choice, and you are to be commended for it

This quote that I mentioned before:

“You know, we would never be here had you not offered me the amazing gift of Reconciliation, but please remember that I chose to be here, too. I chose to do the hard work repairing the damage to myself and to you that has helped bring us to where we are today.”

I know this isn't your quote but it made me think. What was the purpose for this WH to point out to his BW the fact that he chose to stay? He doesn't seem to be simply taking internal inventory and taking pride in the fact that he chose to do the hard work. He seems to be reminding her of all the hard work he has done and the choice he made as though she owes him thanks for that. I can imagine the first thought that came to her mind was "Okay... except none of that work would be necessary if you had kept it in your pants". She certainly had no reason to feel gratitude to him for fixing the damage he had caused. This in conjunction with this following quote just sealed the link in my mind:

flippant response that resembles, “WELL! They CREATED the shit-pile, they damn well better clean the shit up!”

As I now read your response to me and go back and peruse your initial post I saw that I was attributing my interpretation of that quote to you. I see now that the quote was merely something that sparked an epiphany for you. I can see that no where did you even mention that your husband somehow owed you gratitude. Your BH, for the most part, is absent from your post because it isn't about him and his struggle... it's about yours.

Then... honestly... this triggered me:

I had to be willing to rip open my own wounds and, in the process, stab my H with every word, with every touch, with every encounter that I shared with my AP. That was disgustingly hard for me (as I’m sure it is for all of us).

My first thought was... "Wow... you think that was hard for YOU? What about HIM?!" Of course, this isn't about him though. This is about you working through your issues. Of course it was hard for you too... and I can imagine that it was incredibly difficult to see his pain and deal with your own shame. I'm certain that if you WERE talking about your BH that there would be more concern for his pain. That's why I say I was triggered... it made me think about myself and take the focus off of what you were trying to say about your struggle.

Thank you for the clarification and I apologize if I took away from your message in any way.

Okay... Good talk...

Alexa


Me: BH (32)
Her: XWW/SA/Borderline PD (Betrayer47) (32)
OC: (4)

Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: MN
circe
♀ Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 6:16 AM, December 7th (Wednesday), 2011View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know this isn't your quote but it made me think. What was the purpose for this WH to point out to his BW the fact that he chose to stay? He doesn't seem to be simply taking internal inventory and taking pride in the fact that he chose to do the hard work. He seems to be reminding her of all the hard work he has done and the choice he made as though she owes him thanks for that.

I read it more as a reminder that there are two people in the marriage walking on paths toward healing themselves. In my FBS hat, I think of my FWS engaged in his own hard work to healing and I acknowledge that he had the choice to look honestly at himself and our marriage and he chose to. I'm glad for the reminder because there were times I felt I was the one with the long path to walk while he stood still. This was not so. And I could not have remained in my marriage if it was so.

So I don't see it as dismissing the import of the choices the BS has made, but shifting focus to the WS's path, whether the gift of R has been given or not, to heal. I think this thread focuses on that path, just as other threads focus on other aspects of marriage after an affair.

As a FWS/FBS, I appreciate the message that the post-affair marriage is still two people engaged in personal paths of awareness and behavior. That the 'rules' of what you owe yourself as an individual and a marriage partner don't really change, though the work and the path it takes to get to the place you want to be will change. If you've veered far away or if you've held close to the things you hold sacred - the goal will still be the same. The amount of work to get there will be different.


Posts: 3188 | Registered: Mar 2005
Topic Posts: 85
Pages: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5

Return to Forum: Wayward Side Post Reply to this Topic
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.