I am forced to learn new ways to communicate at the same time that he is realizing that what I used to do (and used to try and get him to do) is healthy and good for our M.
It really boils down to trust. I dont trust him to look out for me. I don't trust him to know his own heart. I don't trust him to be able to deal with things if they get hard(er).
If that sounds bad, I will say that every indication is that he has evolved. He has the qualities I loved pre-A (being loving, expressing it, listening, being fun and spontaneous) but is able to open up more. Not a bad deal if I can just let time do its work....
cdnmommy, to respond to your questions:
No, he doesn't work with OW anymore. She left the office last year before dday.
He hasn't seen her since the day before dday at all, completely NC from day 1.
It's actually not so much me that is insistent that he goes (though I know it came off that way in my first post about it). He wants to go, and we both are in agreement that he should. We are both in agreement that I have to go with him and that we wouldn't even be discussing any of this at all if it wasn't for the fact that OW is sure to be present.
It will be the first time he's seen her since dday. I saw her once at the store, but ignored her and walked away. I don't think she saw me. I was with all my kids and there was no way I was dealing with her.
From dday, I knew that things like this would be inevitable. They worked together in a smaller office, in a small profession, in a relatively small geographic area.
I'm actually not as concerned about it now as I was. I know I can do this.
fWH told me yesterday that she is "dead to him", he feels nothing for her or about her at all anymore.
I do agree that we have to come up with a gameplan....I can ignore her, and I'm fairly sure he can, but we have to think about what to do if she initiates contact somehow.
That's really the only thing I am concerned about at this point.
What was that you said? I forget, but it was funny.
That picture Laura made did have one fat person in it. The guy grilling. It must have been someone besides me as I am not fat. Ats and Deep do some grilling. It was probably one of them.
If you think you have hit the wall concerning all this then it is time to think about moving on. I'm sure there are some pretty good women out there. Then again there are some that might not be so great. It could be a crap shoot.
Don't pay attention to OW. Keep your distance and if she tries to make contact just walk away.
Thanks for the update. I was wondering how you were doing. I guess they did not teach "ending relationships 101" where you went to school.
That four letter word, "time" does often work.
[This message edited by old dipstick at 4:17 PM, February 21st (Tuesday)]
Laura - the holiday sounds just what the doctor ordered.Enjoy enjoy enjoy.
Tryin - I hope you find some peace.
Take care tribe.
Have a "wow" Wednesday... In a good "wow" way!
I'm off for more of the endless string of medical tests.....
I'll find a "wow" in there somewhere or I'll make a "wow" this day if I must!
those going through health issue, there are unfortunately a few of you...godspeed, sending some good ole si mojo and prayers your way....
cd you said something i think you need to ponder on..
I struggle with feeling like I have to protect my H also
this statement kind of blows me away....this is not healthy for either of you...
you cannot protect him from himself, from making his own mistakes...and if he does not learn how to fix them he will make them again and again...he needs to do the work, he needs to be proactive in his own growth....if not, he will never grow and change the way he needs to for a healthy relationship of any kind....
and for you my dear, what is it that you "gain" from this feeling of having to protect him.....ask yourself why, and each answer ask yourself why again til you get to the core....and remember he is NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY....and you cannot be responsible for him....there is no happiness in that, no health and no peace of mind...
((((fun)))) i have no words, and unfortunately i can relate only too well....do not let fear grip you my friend, there is no peace in it.....and there is so much peace to be found in taking steps in being who you need to be for yourself....if that makes any sense...
someone asked about me and school...well so far waiting on the grades from the last course, i think i got the a...that would make straight a's, and a 4.0 gpa...yay me...
i gots an interview on fri for an internship position...which is part of the program, we need to complete 160 hours of internship before we can take the certification exams...i am so excited, nervous and i feel like a kid, almost giddy about it...hope i don't make a fool of myself..
class is about to start, gotta go...
A 4.0!! Good job.
let it be me.
Good luck with those tests today. A day of medical tests is not fun. Several posts back you asked me if I had a BPD support group. Not IRL. There are some pretty good BPD websites that I study though. These places are a great source of knowledge.
I knew it had to be ats. 70 kgs must be a good weight. I really don't know as I refuse to learn the metric system!
Hey Laura, FABULOUS trip itinerary to Europe! Jealous!
Sorry about your dog. I was in bits after Summer (yellow lab) died. She started acting funny a few months after d-day and was diagnosed with a brain tumour. She died 7mths after d-day and I felt so bad about it – blamed myself for stressing her out so much with my pain. She followed me everywhere and lay under my feet or with her head on my lap. The dog was soaking up my agony, I really felt she developed the tumour because she was so distressed at my distress. She was only 9. The other one, Holly (choc lab) died 18mths ago. She was 15, so she just died from being OLD! But I still miss them. Can’t get another – don’t want the responsibility (should I end up divorced……) which brings me to:
1)Sheesh – 66mths.
2)The affair(s) cross my mind every day in some form or another. For a while, a couple of years ago, it could be fleeting and that would annoy me. For some reason, it’s more at the moment. As for me being unfaithful, yes, it has crossed my mind. I never thought about it before d-day, not seriously anyway. Now? Yeh, I just might. I dunno.
I’m sure you have thought through this separating issue. I wish we had lived apart for a while. I’ve never known if WH was willing to fight for me or would rather go off with MOW. That’s been a big stumbling block for me in R.
“Irrelevant”. Yep. Act as if she isn’t there. Not there. Don’t look for her, and if you see her, look through her. She ain’t worth shit.
Well, nothing surprises you any longer. Selfish to the core. You have done the right thing by cutting him out. 78K, all gone?? Wow. Sorry honey.
Yay miracle!!! You GO girl!!!
Just a couple of things from me. Dad’s day went well and Mum was pleased. We sorted stuff with the solicitor, so it shouldn’t be long now to tie up the loose ends. I had planned to see a friend, but Mum needed me and my twin to sort her papers and filing system. I said okay. fWH took his chainsaw and axe and did her a load of firewood boxes, so he got some brownie points from me. However. Twin brother went off for “lunch” on his own. He wouldn’t say where he was going when my (older bro’s) SIL asked. He was gone for over 6hrs. I reckon he went to see his ex-gf. No proof, but every time he goes down (he lives 260 miles from my mum) he has “down time” and finds a pub for a pint, lunch and chat. And my mum believes him! He’s so brazen now, I think he’s past caring what we might say or think. I can think of no other reason for him behaving in this way. I said very little about it, just a comment that I don’t think his wife would be happy about it.
On the way home, I stupidly asked H if he was a little jealous (he was hardly going to say yes!!) and he said that if he could, he would tell my bro that he could have no idea of the devastation or damage he would cause. He would caution him to stop now. But, no proof, so…… My own brother.
And I am still waiting for the karma bus to run over the bitch. She’s doing very nicely at the moment, floating around as an acting head in a primary school for a couple of terms, looking all squeaky clean. Someone reroute the bus!!!!!
fWH has always lacked confidence in his abilities. He never thought he was smart enough, and wasn't encouraged to try things. Learning was not a big priority in his home (understandable, since his mom was barely keeping the family above water) and he didn't think he could accomplish much.
He couldn't understand how I could start something without knowing for sure I could do it. I always encouraged him to try anyway. I told him that it was okay to not know, that just because something wasn't "easy" didn't mean he wasn't capable or that he wouldn't succeed. And he did succeed. He graduated from a college program with honors. He says it's because I helped him, but I did not write his assignments or exams. All I did was tutor him from time to time in areas he found challenging. Even before we were dating (we were friends for a long time beforehand) he was happy to let me take the lead on things. I was the responsible one. He was the fun one.
Of course, as I write this, I am starting to see the pattern emerge even more clearly. Frankly, it scares me a little. We have talked about this stuff together but writing it makes it even more obvious.
He sees me as being very emotional, and I am, but I am also very pragmatic and analytical. I was the one who figured out how to get us out of debt. I was the one who got us saving for a house. I planned, I pushed. He did a great job of coming along for the ride. We are financially secure because of the plans I made. To his credit, he was always really good at following through on things, but I suspect that things I thought we decided together were actually cases of him going along with what I wanted. Maybe he was resentful, I don't know, but I do know that the things I proposed put us in a position where we have a nice home with a low mortgage, enough play money, and can take a big vacation every year and take off for weekends several times a year. I know he likes our lifestyle, which is not extravagant, but which is comfortable.
Looking back, I always thought of us as a team, with each of us bringing our own strengths. We referred to ourselves that way, too, and I know we talked about how we felt like we could do anything we set our minds to. Of course, now I question whether that was right or not. fWH says it was. He says we had that and he screwed it up. I, of course, am analyzing the past to figure out if he was seething all the time and just didn't say anything. We have gone over it many, many times and he keeps insisting that is not the case, that his A was not about that. He says he does not recognize the person he was during the A and that who he was before and now are the "real" him and that he feels hopeful and optimistic like he used to. But I also know he held back telling me things for fear of disappointing me or letting me down, and I can't resolve the two in my mind.
Where things really started to fall apart was when I had postpartum depression. I was barely keeping my head above water. I had a hard time looking after myself and our son, and fWH didn't know what to do. I got help, but did so on my own because he was frustrated with the lack of attention I was giving him, and I slowly started to pull myself out. For the first time in our lives I was not functioning well at all. In the past, obviously there had been times when I was not as strong. (When my dad died comes to mind. fWH was a rock for me at the same time as I had to prop up my whole family. He was incredible.) However, this was the first time that I really didn't know how I would get through something. It scared me, and it scared him even more, I think. But instead of trying to figure out how to support me (I asked him to come to my counseling sessions and he declined - didn't think it was necessary) he withdrew and started an A. His "reason" is depression, and I agree he was severely depressed.
I'm torn. I admit I sometimes feel "depression" is a bit of a cop-out. After all, I was depressed to the point of considering ending my own life and I never allowed myself to self-medicate. On the other hand, we are talking about someone who clearly never had the skills to deal with depression, and was used to relying on me to lead the way in many things. I was not in a place to help him at that time. It does not absolve him from responsibility of years of bad choices, but it makes me understand those bad choices just a little bit.
Anyway, back to the original point you made about my feeling like I need to protect him. In my first SRT session last week, the IC asked me what my goal was for counseling. My reply was, "I want to regain my confidence that I can make good decisions for myself, knowing that if I make a wrong turn I will be able to correct course and be okay." I would say that pre-A, that is what I had. I made lots of mistakes, but I made decisions with confidence that I could recover. Part of my feeling like I have to protect him is trying to protect myself. Like, if I don't overburden him he won't let me down. However, I know that is neither practical nor possible. So, as I work toward rebuilding my own confidence, I hope to let go of that feeling of responsibility for him, KWIM? I have wondered if what I am doing is co-dependence.
I think it is aesir who says "I needed to put on my own oxygen mask before assisting others" and that is how I am trying to think about it. It is one of those protective measures that I have to let go, though, and that's what I'm working on. Our MC has talked to me about letting go of my need to protect myself in order to move forward, but as with everything, it is easy to say and harder to do.
Wow, writing this out really puts it in perspective for me. It's like a mini therapy session. :)
just wrote a long message and lost it! will have to try again later as I need to catch a bus shortly to the hair salon for a much-needed apptmt.
My H has an Oxbridge degree – yet didn’t think he was worthy of the university place or of his degree. He said he felt a failure because he didn’t provide us with the sort of lifestyle and income he thought we should have. That he never succeeded in his career because he didn’t pursue the top jobs and so never became Chairman of ICI. He has a lot of very successful, very wealthy friends and acquaintances. The woman he had the LTA with is very successful in her career and life (unfortunately…..) I could have been perfect, he could have done better, but y’know it wasn’t going to ever be enough because he would still find something he had failed at.
It’s this inability to see and appreciate what they DO (did) have instead of what they have not got or failed to get. I’ve posted on a thread in Gen – What evil thing did you do to make them cheat? WH saw me as this person who was so good he couldn’t live up to the same standards – too right, he was having an affair!! Leastways, that was one of his “reasons”. I don’t really buy it.
Depression is a common thread for WS’s and kind of understandable. But if you don’t communicate that to your spouse, how can they help you? But again, admitting to that is admitting to another failure.
Our WS’s are often people who need constant validation and attention. When they don’t get it, they look elsewhere. If we are falling apart, they can’t help us because we have always been the ones to know what to do and so we have to help ourselves as well as them. But we don’t need to turn to an AP, we know that what we need is inside ourselves (we just have to dig to find it) if we have the support of our spouses. Our spouses don’t seem to have this element inside them.
I do think they are capable of change. But, as in everything, honest communication is the answer.
i could be wrong, but i get the impression that your ws is not suffering with depression....i get the impression from what you wrote that he is passive-aggressive....
its a term that when i first heard it, i didn't understand it at all, so i am going to suggest you google it....and yes i agree that on your part there is some sort of co-dependent thing goin on....
as for you makin all the big decisions, on some levels i can relate....on others my ws had no problem making them or having others, mostly his family guiding his decisions....the only decisions that were somewhat controlled by me were....having children..although he put a cap on it when i wanted more....but thats another story...and moving to where we are now...and really i wanted us to move to jersey, he wanted long island...my main issue was that we needed to put our kids in a safe neighborhood...so i got the move, he got the address....
the point...on stuff that they care little about, they have no issue giving control away, it takes the burden off of them....something they want for themselves in a selfish nature....no problem making decisions and choices there....they would not have been able to carry on with a lta without it...
ukgirl...i dont know how you manage to not to strangle your brother....idiosy...seems to be so damned rampant...
and laura....enjoy the trip, you deserve it as do your kids....i hope it fills your soul hon...and it was nice to see the pics again...
In the beginning, I really thought fWH was NPD. Some days I still think he is....but I can see now that it was his depression coupled with compartmentalization that led to how he treated me (and the kids) during the affair.
Or at least I hope that.
We start MC tomorrow, and I'm not looking forward to it at all.
All the book reading and therapy and marriage building crap....sometimes it just bugs me. He's trying so hard now...why couldn't he have tried just a little bit back then and avoided all this. Ugh.
I know I need to go into it with an open mind.
I'm just wrapped up in being angry right now.
[This message edited by worst-year-ever at 10:06 PM, February 22nd (Wednesday)]
As for him being PA, I did google it, and it does fit the bill somewhat. I have talked to him before about what I sense to be his "game playing." He repeatedly assures me he is not playing games, but if he is PA, maybe he is not even aware he is doing it? I don't know, though, because my mother is most definitely PA and he is very different from her. So maybe just a matter of degrees?
wye: I agree with you, 100%. It is so frustrating that a little bit of effort beforehand could have made all the difference. I was trying so hard with fWH before the A to figure out what was going on with him and work on our M, but he had no interest. When I think of all the energy we have put into trying to R and still not know what the outcome will be, it makes me sad to think about.
so when exactly was he depressed...when he was found out...and his world was a tumblin....or at any point before that....
as for diagnosing depressions and prescribing ad's....well depending on whats happening in your life at the time, you would have to be not normal to not be depressed, kwim...he still needs to learn coping skills....most ws;s use their cheating as a way of coping with whatever it is they do not want to face....the reasons change, the circumstances change but the basics are the same.....
its an escape from real life....its living in a world of danger, excitment...a world where they are put on a pedestal so to speak by their op's....life is not normal....they dont' deal with normal, routine, issues, so forth and so on...
I continued to suspect depression, and on many occasions expressed a concern that I wanted him to talk to someone, but he wouldn't. When he finally did seek counseling, it was with MOW (double vomit) and then finally went to IC, again at my insistence. The pre-DDay IC thought he was depressed. The diagnosis from his doctor came after DDay, but according to him the feelings (worthlessness, hopelessness, not caring about anything) had gone on for a long time. I have no reason to doubt that he was suffering from depression, given that he just wasn't himself. I can't really trust his description of how he felt, but I definitely trust my own observations, and I recall being concerned about his mood almost 3 years before DDay finally happened. I think as he self medicated with the A, his level of depression changed from time to time, but it was always there, or so it seemed to me.
Switching gears a bit, miracle, what is it you are taking in school? I am wishing you good luck in your interview tomorrow.
This is the Week From Hell!
**We had our four-hour "how to not fuck up your kids any more than your divorce has already certainly fucked them up" class on Tuesday. Worthless AND expensive! **Mr. STBXNell has decided to refinance the house (YAY!) and in looking over the financials again he is stressed over how expensive divorce will be, is depressed about losing [whatever he's most concerned about losing], and has had a couple of "it's MINE all MINE" moments that he was so kind as to share with me.
**Mediation is tomorrow, and I am so fucking nervous about that. I'm going into it with as much knowledge as I can, and it's not legally binding, so our lawyers will review and can change anything. Still nervous as hell. I want this to be OVER.
Two neighborhood mommies/my friends are taking me out on Saturday night to get me drunk and ruin my reputation. So that should be fun. But until then, karma please?
That is all.
I hear her inside of me and yet I don't listen to her...
if that makes any sense...
waiting on my second set of mammo results to see if i have cancer again....
just overwhelmed with everything again..
thanks for letting me purge this junk out of me..
(((((let it be)))))
short on time, wanted to send some cyber hugs your ways ladies....will be praying, sending karma, mojo and anything else i could think of to all of you....and of course the biggest healing thoughts for you let it be....stay healed...