God, this is such a classic NPD move. They rip into you until you are devastated and crying. Of course, that inflates their twisted egos and over-inflated views of being all powerful. This is a big turn-on to these monsters, so of course they need to frost the cake by forcing sex on you while you're in no shape to defend yourself. It's sickening, and IMHO a form of rape. First you are raped emotionally, followed by the physical act. I hope there is a special place in hell for a person that would treat another human in such a degrading way. And yes, the NPD in my life did the same thing to me. It must be in the "NPD Primer".
Yes, classic NPD. In the early days I thought I was going nuts from the way he was treating me. I'm not a drinker at all, but one night I downed a bottle of wine while sobbing my frustration to him. Once I was drunk, cried out and almost passed out he 'raped' me on the floor. The smug look on his face was disgusting.
Sickening is right.
"Live the best life possible."
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001 (I didn't know)
Remarried 2008 (Happy!)
God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to
change the one I can, and the wisdom to know it's me.
You know I have several ex boyfriends and another ex-husband. And if I see any of them, we will chat it up like old friends. Some of them are very good friends. NONE of my other relationships ended badly, except this one.
If I see him, I call the cops.
If I see him, I call the cops.
Yeah, me too. It sounds like you got out. Thank God...thank God I did too. I hope everyone else on this thread can get to the other side too.
A message from the "other side".....the only way to deal with NPD is total, complete NC. I know that's not possible if there are chilren involved - and that sooo totally sucks. But, do whatever you can to not feed their need. Don't engage. Don't respond.
ANY attention - to an NPD - is better than no attention at all. It simply feeds their need for drama and puffs up their view of themselves as the center of the universe. NC, NC, NC, NC. Only then will you be able to pull yourself out of the vortex of their black hole of sucking need.
I went total NC that day and called the police every time he showed up over here or called me. He had to go to jail a few times before he got the message, but it finally sank in.
I'm remarried and living a quiet, happy, normal, NPD free life.
Maybe one of these days the right guy will fall in my lap. I'm not holding my breath though. I don't think I would survive another trip down THAT rabbit hole!
I'd rather live alone for the rest of my life than spend another minute with an NPD in my home and life.
Me too! I can detect an NPD within seconds up a mile away. That's how well tuned my radar is.
My poor husband. I was so paranoid. We lived together for several year prior to getting married. And I put him through the ringer, making sure he wasn't playing Mr. Nice Guy before flipping to NPD. He must have thought I was nuts!
But he was also here for part of the stalking g and harassment I suffered from XNPDH. When I met my H, I told him that I was a "bad prospect for a girlfriend" because I had a psycho STBXH who would not go away. He wouldn't take no for an example, so I went out with him. When his tires were slashed, I said, "I warned you."
He took it all in stride. He didn't flip out, or go all macho and want to go looking for a fight. We just called the police and filed a report.
I guess I'm lucky that my H has never been smothering in that way. After an N-rage, we each cling to our sides of the mattress. Our dog sleeps between us, so that helps. She always puts herself between him and I.
I have learned so many things about myself and my H in the last couple of weeks, since first posting on SI. I no longer poke H, I'm honest with him about how I feel, but I don't feel the need to tell him unless he asks. It's funny, he's tip-toeing now.
Secrecy about our sitch has been such a huge factor for both of us for so long. I was too ahamed to tell anyone.
Now, he knows that I've told 5 strong wise women. He asked me what their response was, and I told him that they love us both, and they will support me in any way. They are not strange around him, but are giving him hugs too when they see him. They don't hate him, just like I don't, but they want to protect me, without making themselves the enemy in his eyes as well. Does this make sense?
Two of them have been married to Ns in the past, and one of them still can't put her photo on FB, because that's all the fix he would need to track her down again, 10 years later.
I've always been into magical stuff, not witchy, but you know, all that gooey intentions, karma, intuition, etc.
Not long ago, I started an essoteric group. I hand picked the women very carefully, people who were kind, could communicate, not dominate conversations, cared about others, women who were wise, who liked themselves, and had done a lot of inner work. Think "Practical Magic" the movie, but once a month, and we're much older!
Those are the women I told. Who knows what kind of energy work they are directing at him right now.
I think H was preparing himself to be on the defensive in the face of them knowing, that they were going to KILL him with their wrath in my honor.
He wasn't prepared for them to be too smart for that. I saw the air go out of him yesterday when the last one to get filled in left the house as he was coming home.
I was off yesterday. Thought I was going to make a dress out of Tshirts, but the last 2 friends that I wanted to tell showed up one after the other with no plans to do so. That never happens. I NEVER have company on a Monday. It's like they knew.
I know I must sound crazy and delusional, and maybe I am, but this feels right. I am stepping back, still making plans as I feel I need to, not poking the bear, not wanting to either, and sharing my burden with my wise old cackling hen friends.
I'm thinking that since I have to go to at least this one MC session before I am able, finally, to make him leave, I should call my therapist on the QT and fill her in on what I've found out. Really, the only reason I'm going is to get support and help for myself, not to try to save anything but MYSELF.
If she knows what I know, going in, I think she can pick up on things and let me know what she thinks on the side. She's always been good to me, and a damn good therapist. She's dealt with PD's for many years. I really think this could be a good move for me to have help during and after the "get out" part.
Finally, something to look forward to. Help for me.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 12:31 PM, February 28th (Tuesday)]
I'm glad you like your IC. I love mine too.
My H went with me last time, and she met him alone once before that.
I'm thinking that I might just drop out of our future MC session and allow him to go alone.
I thought that he seemed to feel safe with her, she knows where I stand already, and that the only thing that is going to change my mind is a dramatic long-term pole-shift, inside-out metamorphing, rebirth on the part of my H.
When we were there together, she told him that he is in a cage of his own making. She is kind, motherly, and she's been through a lot of shit herself.
He might get more out of it without me being there.
Mine is a wonderful lady who has been through a lot, too. She and her office partner took care of me and the boys back when it came out that they'd been sexually abused. We have a lot of history together, and I trust her completely. I spent 8 years with her, working through so much.
I'm really looking forward to her insight into WH. This is going to be interesting. I almost refused to go, then I realized how good it could be for ME. So he can pay for therapy for me, even if it IS only one session. She and my doc have been friends for years, too, so they work together on referrals and insurance stuff. I can probably get a lot of help after he's out. I'm so glad I changed my mind.
I.e. sense of entitlement and the lack of any ability to maintain appropriate boundaries.
[This message edited by sadtoo at 5:59 PM, February 28th (Tuesday)]
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a diagnosis that still raises controversy in mental health circles. While everyone has some narcissistic traits to a minor degree (and sometimes we need them for survival), a person with NPD takes this to an unhealthy and even pathological level. There are different types of NPD. It is also possible for people to have narcissistic traits but not be full-blown NPD.
In general, the more of the following traits a person has, the more likely they have NPD. We are addressing this from the angle of a partnership, although we could (and will in the future) write an entire book on narcissists and the different kinds of traits they have depending on the relationship (parent, sibling, partner, child) they are in:
* Arrogant toward others. Thinks they are better than everyone else in some (usually unrealistic) way. Very condescending when inappropriate.
* Lack of empathy for others; inability to sympathize or truly understand the emotions of others. Asking them to, “Understand how I feel,” usually gets you a blank stare or a personal attack that you're, “too sensitive.”
* Exploits others for their own gain, even if it's in a positive way. (Think the coach who does it “for the kids” but everyone knows it's for his own self-aggrandizement.) In a negative way, they are very much a parasite emotionally and financially. Think the boyfriend who promises to pay you back the rent money for the past six months, yet when he leaves he tells the story that he was supporting you, not the other way around. Or the ex who has you take out a ton of loans to support their lifestyle and leaves you while you're gone at work, taking everything in the house with them. Leaving you with all the bills, of course.
* Constantly expects and demands to be treated differently. (The person who demands the best table at a restaurant, immediate service even if there are others ahead of them, etc.)
* Has to have repetitive and constant praise. Their ego is dependent upon what others tell them. If someone bruises their ego and tells them something negative, they can react unreasonably in a rage or withdraw and inappropriately inconsolable.
* Envies others and are convinced others envy them.
* They think they are operating on a “higher” plain of morality, intelligence, or are superior to others. Will often flaunt the law, but if caught will beg and plead for mercy or try to talk their way out of it. Often feel they are in an exclusive group of people intelligence-wise, even if they have no proof of this.
* They exaggerate their achievements and abilities. Always bragging about the same things, over and over, even those things that happened decades earlier. Will tell the same self-important stories over and over again.
* Seem stuck in a “younger” emotional level. While the public at large might not notice this, the partner will recognize any arguments or emotional debates seem to be taking place with a teenager or adolescent, not a rational adult. You can actually correlate their actions to those of a teenager or child.
* They tend to indulge themselves in the belief that they are important, handsome/beautiful, have sexual prowess, higher intelligence, better business sense than others.
* Can be pathological liars and/or dishonest even though they claim they are honest, don't like, and loathe the tendency in others.
* May be religiously hypocritical. Think Saturday night sinner, Sunday morning saint. The preacher who is caught with a prostitute is a great example. Or even the married, Christian, fundamentalist preacher caught in a gay sex scandal. Or the deacon of the church who has cheated on his wife during their entire marriage.
* Criticism, even constructive, legitimate and gentle, will usually elicit an unwarranted personal attack.
* They hate being corrected, especially in front of an audience.
* Act like they are an expert in nearly any subject. Or if they meet someone they want to have contact with, they will study up on a subject to be seen as knowledgeable by that person.
* Make you feel crazy. They can say one thing, and literally in the same or next breath, say something totally contradictory. Then they will deny they ever said the first thing and accuse you of being crazy.
* Puts on a great front to the world, but treats their partner/family totally differently. Often the life of the party, the great guy.
* Will frequently monopolize a conversation unless they realize they don't know anything about the topic. In that rare case, they may sit back and study everyone and everything and you can almost see the wheels turning in their head.
* May have lots of acquaintances, but very few close long-term friends. At least, not ones who are positive influences.
* Will “suck up” to people they perceive have more power, wealth, prestige, knowledge, etc. than they do. If it's someone they perceive as being “superior” to them, they will ingratiate themselves to that person to be closer to them. If the narcissist ever feels they have become superior, they will discard the person.
* Very inconsiderate, especially of a partner. But again, they can put on a great front to people who don't know them very well. For example, they may all but ignore a baby, yet when around others they will demand to hold the baby, even though it's the first time they've touched the baby in days.
* Will “groom” a potential romantic partner, often rushing the romance at a whirlwind rate, planning several dates out in advance, might even mention marriage or moving in together during the first or second date. Will assume to know what you want and will make plans without consulting you. If they consult you, they will do what they want anyway. May act inappropriately to pressure you for sex too soon, or assume you want to go to bed with them.
* Will rarely consult with partner about decisions. Usually thinks they know better. Will only go along with the partner if it's something the narcissist wants to do to begin with.
* Will often make the partner late to events the narcissist doesn't want to attend. Or start a fight so the partner won't go or will go without him.
* Cannot have a logical argument/disagreement. If you show them where they are wrong, in black and white, they will divert the argument, attack you personally, deny they ever did/said what you claim, or do something else to get out of it. If all else fails, they will rage and storm out of the house, leaving you to wonder what just happened.
* Can be very abusive to their partner, mentally, physically, emotionally, and sexually. But when the partner tries to leave, they may cry and weep and beg the partner to stay with promises to change. Then things go back to normal within days or weeks.
* You can see a pattern to their behavior if you are with them long enough. You can chart acting out behaviors, fights, etc. based around events like anniversaries, holidays, and payday.
* Inconsiderate partner. Expects the partner to do everything but takes full credit for it all and claims the partner never pitches in to help. The partner can never fully live up to the narcissist's expectations.
* Volunteers their partner to do things for others without consultation or lifting a finger to help. Might even sign the couple up for an event and let the partner do all the work. (Think the man who gets into a multi-level marketing organization and makes their wife do all the work and make all the contacts, yet will take all the credit and dish out all the blame accordingly. Or someone who volunteers their partner to be a caregiver for a sick relative without consulting them first, and if it conflicts with the partner's schedule the narcissist will blame, guilt, and belittle the partner until they give in.)
* The longer you are with a narcissist, you will notice they only hand out compliments when they want something from you (usually money or sex) or realize they've pushed you too far and want to reel you back in.
* You feel trapped in the relationship, like you've been reeled in time and again like a fish on a hook.
* Inappropriate expectations from children. (Demanding they be perfect in grades, sports, etc.)
* Sexually inappropriate with others; lots of flirting, chatting, emailing to others despite the partner's objections. Can even have multiple affairs.
* When the partner objects to the narcissist's actions, the narcissist will tell them, “You're imagining things.” “You're crazy.” “You don't know what you're talking about.” “That wasn't me.” “You're stupid.” “You're just jealous.” “It's all in your head.”
* Can make cruel jokes or comments at someone's expense. When the person objects, they won't apologize, they'll say, “I was just joking. Lighten up – you're too sensitive.”
* Might love something that gives them narcissistic supply, like a pet or child, but will treat others like objects. But they will frequently abuse the pet or child of a partner. If their narcissistic object disappoints them, they will often abuse or get rid of it or disown it.
* If you refuse to give the narcissist their “narcissistic supply” they will dump you.
* If someone they perceive as “superior” to them sees through their mask, they will find ways to avoid them or discredit them.
* Overreacts to real or imagined slights. Yet if someone accuses them of the same thing, they will tell the person they need to lighten up or chill out, they're imagining things, etc.
* Major double standard. Will hold everyone and everything else to a much higher standard than they hold themselves. Will claim to be at a higher standard while doing the same things they belittle or accuse others of doing.
* Will often project onto their partner or others. For example, “You're so selfish,” when the truth is it's the narcissist who is selfish.
* Appearances are everything to them. Not just physical, but things like money, legal situations, business. If the partner dares tells the truth about something in public the narcissist will frequently embarrass them publicly to shut them up.
* Won't hesitate to use public embarrassment or ridicule to keep a partner in line.
* If you start to ignore them or tune them out, they try everything they can to get your attention (good and bad).
* Will frequently leave their partner first before the partner can leave them. Or they will keep attempting to drag the partner back to them when the partner leaves.
* Concerning past hurts, will get angry if you bring up any wrongs they do, but won't hesitate to throw your past in your face.
* Will often “research” you so they can throw incidents from your past, even before they knew you, in your face.
* Will use emotional blackmail against you without hesitation, but they usually cannot be emotionally blackmailed.
* Hate to lose. They are awful to play games with because they are vicious and will gloat about it. If they lose, they are poor losers.
* You honestly think they come from a different planet and find yourself checking in with others to see if you're crazy or not.
* Will frequently attempt to isolate the partner from friends and family; can be very jealous of partner's time spent away from them; will alienate the partner's friends and family to keep them from coming around; might outright tell the partner who they are and aren't allowed to associate with.
* Blames everyone and everything else for their problems, especially the partner. Rarely takes personal accountability for a problem, even if it can be proven they are at fault. Will justify and rationalize everything regardless of truth. Nothing is ever their fault, it's always the fault of someone or something else.
* Always seems to have some crisis going on. Never seems happy if things are “calm” and quiet. Almost seems to thrive on tension and creating chaos in a situation. You might even think they are deliberately trying to start a fight.
* A narcissist might cry and swear to change, but will go right back to the same behaviors as soon as they feel secure that you are staying. Great at the crocodile tears. Can go from crocodile tears to rage in a heartbeat.
* Overreacts to everything. Can be interested in model airplanes one day, and the next they are delving into skydiving. There seems to be no middle ground with them – it's all or nothing.
* They might not want to go out all the time, or they might never want to stay home. The point is, they will always do (or finagle to do) what they want to do regardless of what the partner wants to do.
* Minimizes the partner's role in the relationship. Especially if they have maneuvered the partner into a position so they are financially dependent upon the narcissist. For example, a woman might have a college degree and gave up a good paying job to be a stay-at-home mom. From that point on, the narcissist systematically works to control the finances and keep the partner dependent upon them. At the same time, they may criticize and belittle the partner for being dependent upon them. Even if it was the narcissist who insisted on the arrangement in the first place.
* Listen for the key words from the narcissist: I, Me, Mine. When the narcissist tries to convince you not to leave, it will be couched in terms of, “What will I do if you leave?” “What do you expect me to do?” “I won't be able to ___ if you leave.” It will always be statements about them, not about you as a partner.
* Will frequently portray all of their ex-partners as being at fault. May admit a few things that were their fault for effect, but when you strip away all the stories, everything is blamed on the ex-partners.
* Will frequently ignore the partner's birthday, anniversaries, holidays. Unless there's an audience, then they will give grandiose gifts in front of them.
* May make grand gestures to the partner with expectations of sex or special favors. Never gives a gift to a partner without some sort of strings attached.
Remember, there are different types of narcissists. Some are quiet and almost shy in their demeanor, but they still have narcissistic cores. These kind tend to not be grandiose in outward actions, but still have the same beliefs. So they demand extremely high levels of reassurance and attention from those around them. They are extremely vulnerable to criticism because of very low-levels of self-esteem, and instead of responding to criticism with a personal attack, they may withdraw and be nearly inconsolable.
If you could sum up a narcissist, it is someone who is self-absorbed (regardless of their actions), who is incapable of having true emotional empathy for others, and who puts on a series of masks to show the world depending on the situation. Some describe them as emotional vampires, as leeches, and as total fakes. There are many reasons why someone turns out to be a narcissist, but the worst part is they rarely seek treatment for their problem – remember, they think everyone else is the problem. They put on a series of masks depending on what they want others to see. They know they are not like everyone else (they see that as a strength, not the weakness it really is) and take pride in being “different.”
It is debatable if someone with NPD can truly love another person the way a non-NPD person can love. They might envy or admire certain traits of the other person, but because they want to either exploit them for their own use or because they desire to have those traits for themselves as a tactical advantage.
The more traits you see on the list, the more likely it is you are dealing with an NPD sex addict. The problem is, sex addiction is a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, not the other way around. Which means that unless and until they seek serious treatment for their NPD, they will NOT seek recovery or treatment for their SA.
In all honesty, I have never seen or heard of a true NPD patient who has sought and maintained a recovery from this condition. The nature of the condition means they don't think they have a problem. So why should they get help? If forced into therapy, they will often say what they think the therapist wants to hear, or they will manipulate the therapist into believing it's all the partner's fault. Again, remember someone can have narcissistic traits and not be a full-blown narcissist. And even “normal” people can temporarily adopt narcissistic tendencies as a survival mechanism, especially if the relationship is abusive. And teenagers frequently exhibit many of the signs, but grow out of them as they mature and learn. The problem is, someone with NPD never “grows out of it.” They get better at hiding much of their true nature as they realize they aren't “understood” and their actions aren't condoned by others, but that is not the same as being cured.
Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) can overlap NPD. Some of the symptoms can be the same, and a person can actually have both at the same time. Again, many of these signs are also present in normal teens who outgrow them with maturity. And of course, they can also be signs of other mental health conditions. However, if many of these signs are present, it is an indication of possible BPD.
* Anger in inappropriate circumstances.
* Fragile or unstable self-image.
* History of attempted suicide, cutting, or other self-injury or self-destructive behaviors (addiction, etc.).
* Reports feeling “empty” inside, like they aren't able to be in touch with their emotions.
* Irrational and intense fears of abandonment.
* Radical and inappropriate mood swings.
* Poor impulse control. (Spending, sexual activities, addiction, binge eating, gambling, etc.)
* Periods of irrational paranoia.
* Periodic loss of contact with reality.
Again, personality disorders are still an area of contention among mental health experts. Some say the symptoms are signs of something else, some say the symptoms stand alone to indicate a personality disorder. And some say the personality disorders should be broken down further into different categories and subsets. Some personality disorders, while recognized by mental health professionals, are still not “officially” designated as such by the American Psychiatric Association.
Then again, these are the same people who used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. The DSM-IV (the APA “manual”) is constantly being updated to reflect new theories and treatments in mental health. It is expected as more mental health professionals study personality disorders that the criteria and diagnostic tools will improve and be updated.
I have such a hard time with the shame of some of those memories. I think I force myself to "air" it and to put it down in words. So that I can let go of the shame and so that I can support anyone who feels the same or similar. It is not my shame to bear.
I spent too many years hearing what was wrong with me. I heard the word frigid, I was not like "everyone else." I was too sensitive or lazy or too demanding.
I learned (I am unlearning) that my feelings were flawed and not worthy.
Talk it out. Write it out. The hardest things to say or hear are probably where the greatest potential for healing lies.
sadtoo, thank you for the gift of wisdom and experience.
exhausted lady, it is good to see you!
((((SoHurt)))) stay the course.
thanks to everyone who has shared their souls and hearts.
[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 7:55 PM, February 28th (Tuesday)]
Care, yes, those lightbulbs go off every time I read that list. You'd think I'd never have to pay for electricity again. And thanks for the cheerleading. It helps.
[This message edited by SoHurt at 8:55 PM, February 28th (Tuesday)]
I am thankful that I never had the "spousal rape" one and instead was put on a no sex diet. It was so degrading to have him discuss my body in front of the neighbors but then never want to have sex with me except every few years. I had no idea that he was taking care of himself with cyber whores. I remember one time he told me that he didn't believe in masterbation and then a few years later walking in on him masterbating. He swore to me that he had never told me he didn't do it. I thought I was crazy or had dreamt it up. He had a willing partner *me* but would rather do it himself or use cyber whores. Not once did I ever thing of cheating on him tho.
It is so hard to realize that everything about the last 12 years of your life was a lie. I am detaching and have no desire to be with him ever again. The only time I think of him is when I have to get tested or when a new illness is diagnosed. Those are the times when the stress gets to me and I wished I had someone to help me through it all. But then I remember that he wasn't there for me when I was so very ill and he wouldn't be there for me now.
I hope that anyone still living with an NPD finds the strength to walk away and find peace. I do have moments of anger and I still cry sometimes but the peace of not living with an NPD is priceless.
Wishing everyone the best.
I feel like I am on a game show. Door #1. I get screwed
Door #2. You try to screw me another way.
Door #3. I win you lose
Door #4. A trip to hell for the rest of my life with you.
Nc nc nc nc nc. Even if I am a little curious as what his offer is, I know if he finally found his conscience, he would have emailed me everything with no concern for him. But that offer smells a little like kibble.
So I told the first officer that Mr. NPD seems to be having a bit of a pity party, and I could care less what he does. F.O. said, hmmmm....okay, just wanted to make sure he wasn't screwing with you again. Gotta love my biker bros! One thing I can count on, for sure, is that these men (and women) have my back. They've proven it over and over again.
Five years ago, I was kind of nervous about joining a motorcycle club. Since then, they've become a second family to me. I'm truly blessed to have all of them in my life.
They twist and manipulate, fish for information and seek sympathy. I mean, seriously? Why say anything? Why draw attention to something that should be ancient history? It's so bizarre, isn't it?
And this is where the NPD is their own worst enemy. They run their mouth. Their ego gets the best of them because they think they're so smart and so funny. They go on and on about something like an ex relationship that ended badly (because of them) and talk to people who either don't know or don't care about it. Or worse, they talk to someone who knows or care about the NPD's victim trying to put some spin on the story to their favor.
Sometimes I wonder if they ever really go away. I threw mine out in March of 2002. But he was hiding in the bushes, driving by the house and running surveillance for years. I've lost count of how many PO's i've had and how many times he's been charged with violating. Sometimes I don't know if he's really gone or just driving a different vehicle.