This thread is peopled by people like that, throwin out your help, come what may in your own sitch. I love that, because I learned to see behind my eyes from here.
Now I treasure that which is good. I have minimal standards now. All you got to be is authentic and real to be near me.
Here is a baby step example. You got into this bs via baby steps, you're all involved & all. The easiest baby
steps to take are
our internal monologue.
If you extract the one word:
"always" from the following:
Why do I always feel bad for him?
You get an entirely different question. One that points to YOU.
It's a dang good question, given their well-documented abuse and asshatery...
Once you start pointing your questions toward YOU, you begin to get free.
AAAAAAAAARGH!!! But I have a better plan for tomorrow, now, so that was a good thing. My son will come home from work for lunch and drop me off, so I don't have to do the marathon again. I'm in such pain this evening! Another good thing is the dv advocate showed up, and we got to talk more. So I have a much clearer picture of what is going to happen tomorrow.
I ended up figuring out why I got the date wrong: I had to get some bills paid - or arrangements made to pay - BY TODAY in order to avoid shut offs. THAT is why this date stuck in my head. I sat in the hallway of the courthouse and cried. It took everything I had, physically, to get there.
But the advocate told me a couple really good pieces of news: I do not have the burden of proof! HE does. HE has to prove he doesn't deserve the order placed against him. She also told me that the statements my son made to me yesterday are admissible, even though he won't be there to make them! So that means, also, that the knife being pulled on my middle son is admissible!
I sat down with my youngest yesterday and asked him what he wanted to make sure I told the judge. Boy, what came out! I filled a sheet of legal pad paper with small writing to fit it all in! Some of what he wants the judge to know:
He wants supervised visits ONLY, and ONLY when HE wants them.
He wants the PO to be permanent.
He is scared of the monster, and does not want to live with him, EVER.
He is not comfortable around the monster's woman "friend."
He only agreed with the monster because he was scared not to.
He was afraid he and I would be hurt during the arguments.
It goes on like that for a whole page. But at the bottom, starred 3 times for extra emphasis, is this:
He wants the judge to know that he was suicidal until Roy left! He admitted it to me! I don't have to hide that I knew, now, and HE WANTS THE MONSTER TO KNOW IT, TOO! AND THAT IT WAS BECAUSE THE MONSTER TREATS HIM SO BADLY!
This, after only one month of him being out of the house, and after 15 years of not being able to speak for himself! I told him how proud I was of him for being brave enough to admit it, and that I'm very, very happy he didn't follow through.
I'm so exhausted, and now I have to still go face him tomorrow. I'm so sorry I kept you all waiting to hear from me. I feel horrible about that. I got a lot done today, it just wasn't what I thought I was going to be doing. DAMN, I hate how confused I get with everything that's going on.
So I'll let you know TOMORROW, when the REAL date is.
after 15 years of not being able to speak for himself
Devastatingly sad. And so happy and glad he now can. What an exponential sense of himself and liberation from fear in just a month.
What a gift of freedom you've given him.
So we have to do this again in two weeks. But he handed me a gift he didn't expect to: the knowledge that HE IS SCARED OF ME. He has lost control, and he knows it. All he's concerned about is his own lousy hide. Watch him explain how he can hire a lawyer yet not pay child support... and all with NO income. Hmmmmm... I think DOL would be interested in how he's "not" making any money selling cars illegally. =) And proof of that is in my possession in abundance.
Well, I would rather have gotten this over with today, but he's just making it easier for me. I'm now going to have a chance to ask my youngest to let me take his journal to court with me, so that the judge can read his own words about how he feels about the monster. ROFL. Go ahead... piss me off some more. It may not show on the outside while I'm facing him in court, but it's there. He just doesn't know it.
You're the bomba-fuckin'-diggy.
Rock it, sugar.
wifeno2, I had an N like that. I'd almost have preferred the fist-waving, publicly-ranting kind (I know, I know, that's crazy talk). Mine was what is sometimes referred to as a "cerebral narcissist." As much as I detest Sam Vankin, this article sums up the differences: http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/dr-jackal-and-mr-hide-somatic-vs-cerebral-narcissists/
Let that article guide your further research on how to "handle" (up to and including escaping) a CN.
You're the bomba-fuckin'-diggy.
I am certainly hoping this is a good thing. Just kidding. I can't tell you how much better I feel today. Just knowing the monster is running scared is SO empowering. And he's running BEFORE he knows everything I have to hit him with. That is priceless. Imagine how he'll feel when I slap his face with the rest of this stuff!
Yes, all in all, it was a great day. Yes, indeedy.
Edie, yes, it is devastatingly sad that my son has learned how not to speak up. But he is finding his own voice in this, and so are the other two. I keep reminding myself that I have given them a gift of freedom that they never would have had. I showed them they CAN speak the truth and be believed. It is so enchanting to watch them come out of their separate cocoons and start flying and fluttering! Soon, they will become eagles, as I am! Masters of the sky!!
I am proud of myself, though at times disheartened by the monster's stalling tactics. But each day, I find another thing to keep me going, and I am finding life on this side of the curtain far better than I imagined.
Onward and upward!!
As most of you know, I have some communication with OW#1. She is the one with the OC. He told her he wasn't married, etc, etc. She helped me connect the dots and fill in the blanks, and even testified for me several times. I did the same for her in her many hearings and custody issues with the idiot.
I haven't talked to her for a long time and she called the other day. It's never good news. The OC is 12 years old now and she is refusing to go to visitation. So OW#1 called him and told him what the daughter said about not wanting to go to visitation. (she didn't get into what the daughter said as far as "why") but she told him that she had made an appointment with a family therapist and thought that would be the best way to work through this before resuming visitation.
He screamed and yelled at her, telling her that she was "not going to keep him away from HIS DAUGHTER." Then he hung up on her.
The next thing that happens is he is at her door, pounding like some lunatic. She opened the door and tried again to explain about the family therapist appointment, all while the daughter is yelling that she doesn't want to see him. He then tries to shove his way into her house. She put her arm up and started to shut the door. She managed to get the door shut and keep him out.
The next thing that happened was the POLICE show up at her door saying that he claimed that she had assaulted HIM! AND he wanted her arrested!! (There's a way to win over your daughter! Way to go Dad!!! NOT) of course she wasn't arrested. And what was interesting was the police told her to "be careful with this guy because he has a really bad record of domestic violence and harassing women" Finally there's something on his record!
So the reason the daughter doesn't want to go on visitation?
He picks her up and either takes her to his mothers house or takes her to his house and leaves her there all alone.
He rants and raves constantly about how horrible her mother is and "doen't she think her mother is a loser too?" it goes on like that the whole weekend.
And the worst of it. He calls her FAT. This is a 12 year old little girl who is NOT fat at all. (I was near anorexic when I was with him and he called me fat too) So while she is there with him and OW#2, they feed her a "Lean Cuisine" frozen dinner, put her to bed and then the two of them make a different dinner to eat.
How cruel and abusive is that? He is one sick disgusting puke.
[This message edited by sadtoo at 9:12 AM, June 8th (Friday)]
When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)
I am quite happy today because I have started a juice diet and so far have lost 1 pant size in one week. I need to go buy new shorts cuz mine don't fit...YIPPEEEE! Yesterday I had to return a jean skirt I bought that was 2 sizes too big. Lovin It! My juice diet is actually of my own making. I got a Vitamix blender (it doesn't leave the pulp) and I use frozen fruit and add veggies for a healthy drink. I have 3 per day and it seems to be working.
My zebraduck has been quiet for months now but I have to see him in court next month and not looking forward to it. I have actually gotten to the point that I do NOT care who he is with or who is in his bed. Just doesn't matter to me anymore. Hopefully by next month I will be divorce but he will still have to pay for my insurance cause I don't get Medicare till 2013.
Hugs to all out in Zebraduck land!
This is my first post here in NPD.
Thanks for the replies! I am still struggling with the reality of what I think I am dealing with. Fortuneately, or unfortuneatley he isn't like a lot of the NPD's being discussed. He is MUCH more covert. It has taken me 11 years to see it and taken his therapist a year to see it. He's not the over the top kind. He isn't really hard to live with. But yes, I am too much of a doormat and I am no longer okay with that.
I am not ready to leave. And the day to day life we have is pretty good. I just know that we don't really have the intimacy I want and he will always be at risk for cheating, lying and will also think of himself first.
Anyone else dealth with this kind of narcissism? I would like to get myself much more prepared before I leave. So I need to find ways to continue to heal without letting him undermine this.
Anyone else dealth with this kind of narcissism? I would like to get myself much more prepared before I leave. So I need to find ways to continue to heal without letting him undermine this.
My question is this - ex douchebag WH is still with OW. She is, by all accounts, needy, clingy, stupid and overall horrible. They have no real friends because no one can stand what he did to his family and no one can stand her. Anyway, how do relationships with a covert narcissist and a needy bunny boiler usually work out??? They've been together for a while now but just moved close, very close, to each other and just introduced all the kids, her two and my two. There is already a little evidence that my kids are not digging her kids that much. This is the reality from which he ran - household stuff, kids, always being around your partner, being controlled in a relationship. Oh, and he is now indicating that he needs to save money. I know he has money issues from his school loans and secret credit card debt and child support obligations on top of everything else he has to pay for. OW has nowhere near my earning capacity so they seem a bit stuck.
How do the covert narcissists deal with this? Oh, and I forgot to mention that she is his secretary so all that bullshit from work is carried around like baggage too.
Predictions? Thoughts? Comments??
Anyway, how do relationships with a covert narcissist and a needy bunny boiler usually work out???
I'm very very new to this but have been doing a lot of reading.
The relationship will work out perfectly for the narcissist, not so much for the OW, or any woman for that matter.
First, this is going to take some time. I'm currently unemployed (SAHM), and there is a possibility we may be relocating if wh is offered a job in another state. (Actually, this would be a good thing because I would be much closer to family and friends).
Either way, this is going to take time, a minimum of 6 months would be realistic. How the hell do I keep it together for so long?
I think my best plan of action is to pretend everything is ok while I go about preparing and making plans. Ironically, this means I will have to resort to lying, sneaky behavior.
How do I keep from getting sucked back in? That's going to be hard.
Also difficult is I don't really have real support from friends or family because everyone thinks wh is such a NICE guy. The few times I've tried to intimate to friends or family what he can sometimes REALLY be like, no one believed me. Just a few weeks ago a close friend of mine insisted my wh is the ONE guy she knows would NEVER cheat after I said I believed just about anyone is capable of cheating.
So, no support there. Then last week wh tells me he told his close friend I was dragging him to MC because I 'think' he cheated on me and wh made sure to tell me how is friend said wh is the most loyal person he knows.
See, the ONLY thing wh is concerned about is that OTHER people think he is a nice guy, a loyal guy, a hardworking guy. It's like he doesn't necessarily have to BE those things. It's good enough that everyone else believes it.
So how do I pretend that everything is normal without getting sucked back into believing he really is the 'nice' guy everyone believes him to be?
BTW, I have no worries about wh becoming violent in any way, shape or form. His abuse is much more covert than that.
[This message edited by OnTilt at 9:22 AM, June 12th (Tuesday)]
It took 3 tries before I left my stbx because he had gotten me so scared that I couldn't make it on my own. He was ok on a day to day basis too but he would punish me if I argued with him, he stopped talking to me for up to a week to punish me. He would say "are you trying to pick a fight with me" if I brought up issues.
Mind didn't get the rages until 8 years after we were married and the first one I just thought he had too much to drink. I didn't realize he was a full blown narcissist because he was so good at "playing the good guy". I used to tell him that if peopel knew the real him they wouldn't like him and he agreed. That is sad. Yes, it was all show for everyone but me. He was alway the buddy, the greatest neighbor, best friend yada yada yada but the worst friend to me or lover. I had no idea that he was cheating on me since our second year of marriage until after I left him. I just found out that he did it to his first wife too.
You have to play the game but remember the "real" him that you see behind closed doors. Start a new bank account and put money in it for excaping him. Look for a part time job that could go full time. Tell him you just need an outside interest. Read everything you can regarding Narcissists. Get to know all of his behaviors and make your escape plans to fit your timetable but never forget that he won't want to give you up. YOu are his ego kibbles and until he has a new kibble lined up you belong to him. Just feed his kibbles to him as you plan your escape.
Come here and post often. There are many of us who have walked away and gotten free and there are those that are still working on a plan to leave. We will help you through this quigmire of NPDness.
Do you think there are 'grades' or different levels of narcissism? I know a few months back I read some article on the Internet regarding narcissism and quickly dismissed the possibility. Some of what I read was really off the mark. It wasn't until another SI member had an AHA moment when she realized her wh was a covert narcissist that I found an article closer to the mark.
Even some things regarding a covert narcissist don't fit, but many do. The gaslighting is the biggie. The refusal to discuss any issues with the marriage I have brought up over the years, always ending with him saying it's all in my head, I need medication or I need to 'see' someone about my issues, etc. I'm sure this all sounds familiar.
Ironically, after readin about narcissism I realize wh's brother is a full blown narcissist. He's on his 3rd wife, I know his ex's, and the stories they have told me would make your hair stand on end. Funny, when my wh was going through his "contact every female from my past on FB" phase, I stated to him that I thought maybe he has a milder version of his brother's disorder. This was before I realize his brother was narcissistic, but knew there was something seriously wrong with him.
Can some people be more narcissistic than others? Does narcissism run in families?
I have mixed feelings as well with this realization. Part of me is sad/depressed because I know there is no help for wh, nothing that will fix him, therefore the marriage is also unfixable. Another part of me is relieved though to know it's not me, that I no longer need to get him to understand, or 'get it', or realize how abusive and damaging his lying is. Because now I know he will never 'get it', never stop lying and gaslighting, never realize he has a problem, and I no longer have to beat my head against a wall trying to get him to 'see' what he is doing. He is unfixable and now I can stop trying, and worry only about myself.
He is severely broken, beyond repair, completely unfixable. I almost feel sorry for him... Does that make sense?
I'm sure there are those who can "make it work" with a narcissist. But it will be at a tremendous cost to the person "making it work." because there is no way to count on the NPD contibuting to any type of marriage / partnership / etc. They will bulldoze through every boundary, they will cheat, and lie and make life hell for their partner. But you have to just take it, or your hell will become intolerable.
You will have very strict boundaries and rules to follow. And any complaint you have or feeling of this being unfair must be kept to yourself.
Remember, the rules only apply to you during life with a Narcissist. you can forget about anything "fair".
NPD's only care about themselves and they insist on their partner only caring about "them" too.
When I say I am tired he says.."have you been tired all day or is it just when it's my time" (to be with you)
There was an article written on me in our local mag and I am quoted as saying "my family is my priority" he was mad that I didn't specifically mention him.
I ALWAYS initiate sex, he says it's up to me when I am "in the mood" but I see it as he wants to feel needed.
I went on a field trip with my kid's class, no cell signal. I borrowed a friend's cell to call and he barely believed me that I didn't have signal.
He checks my texts
He reads my emails
he asks daily who I spoke to, what was said, and pretty much what I did every minute of the day
He gives me a very good material life (big house, no complaints about money etc) but I must do what I am told. He didn't say that but that is what is expected. He took me on an amazing surprise vacation for my big 40. He is definitely romantic that way. His love language is buying me thoughtful things.
He doesn't like my friends.
He apologized ONCE for the A with my BFF a long time ago. He told the MC that he said he was sorry and he shouldn't have to keep telling me.
He does nothing in regards to disciplining kids "I am the mother ,that is MY job"
ughh I could go on on and...
They are completely self focused and self absorbed. Even though he provides a nice lifestyle, he gets something out of that. He must believe that that makes HIM look good. He doesn't do it to be generous.
And unless the children are doing something that is important to him or he thinks is impressive or somehow makes him look good, he won't have much to do with them.
And you can't fix this. This is a "disorder" not a mental illness. They generally will not go to counselling because there is "nothing wrong with them" and pointing out their disorder will only backfire....so don't try that.
It's possible to live with anybody. In order to live with a narcissist, you have to accept the fact that you will be:
- cheated on
- lied to
- subjected to verbal abuse; doesn't have to be loud or aggressive, but it is definitely designed to slowly make you doubt yourself.
Once you accept those three basic behaviors exhibited by nearly all narcissists, there's a list of things you cannot do:
- place any expectations on the narcissist
- criticize them in any way
- openly express admirations for other people, including family members and children
- anticipate holidays, except for the narcissist's birthday. some of the best holidays i spent were either away from him, or in the case of anniversaries, Valentine's, Mother's Day, etc., were because he had a friend or relative who was big into it and we just kind of slid into their plans
and so on.
You have to be realistic. You're not going to cure this person; you're not going to turn this person into a decent, loving human being. You can subtly attempt to manipulate them so that they're okay some of the time, but that's as good as it gets.
Talk straight to me – I need help!!
I know my story is long but please read and tell me honestly.
I have been married for almost 22 years, together for 26, since I was just turning 19 years old. He was the second man I ever had sex with, and you really couldn’t even count the first one. In short he has been my life for more than half of my life. We have three wonderful children that are now mostly grown, daughter (20) and two sons (17) & (14). We took many vacations and short trips together. Did lots of things as a family, took walks holding hands all the time. In short, I was happy with my life.
There were things about him that annoyed me, but I would just deal with them. I am a people pleaser by nature. He always seemed to be about himself and I would cry many times over the years to him telling him that I never felt like I was number 1 to him. I never felt that emotional wholeness, that fulfillment. It would always result in an immediate fight any time I brought up my feelings. It was like there was a wall of defense that I couldn’t break thru. I felt as if it were just that he was not capable of the emotional support that I needed/craved.
About 8 years ago I received a devastating phone call from the husband of another woman. He told me that he had uncovered an “emotional” affair with his wife and my husband. That he had know for some time and investigated it and felt that it had gone no further than emotional and kissing. I was crushed beyond words. My husband rushed by my side and assured me that it was all over and done with that nothing more happened and that I was the one he wanted to be with. But it had been going on for a year and a half. And to make it worse they had been riding into work together all that time and he never told me. Another crushing blow was that I found out it all started just two weeks after my mother had suddenly passed away. He betrayed me when I was at my lowest point in life.
We would lie at night and I would cry and ask question after question. He would answer every one and tell me that he wanted to tell me everything, and rebuild the marriage. About a month into this process, his mother was diagnosed with and passed away from cancer. I rushed to be with her and help out any way that I could, and put my own healing aside. After she passed, I wanted to be there for him, knowing how hard of a time this was.
We rebuilt and were stronger than ever. This is when he started walking with me and we would hold hands all the time. We connected again. I was forever suspicious after that but he would get the defensive wall every time I would try to talk to him to calm my suspicions.
In the following years we also lost both of our fathers, and had a break in to our house and they set our house on fire. To say the least we had a lot of tragedy in the past 10 years. But we always pulled thru it. I felt like we could deal with anything after we had come thru all of that.
While at our sons Junior Prom, my husband was valet parking the cars for the kids as they arrived, and afterward we were going to work the after prom event. On the way to the after prom I asked to look at the pictures that he had taken of our son on his phone. While flipping thru the pictures I ran across a picture of an instant message between him and someone else. It didn’t say much, was just small talk. But now I knew he was talking to someone else. Somehow, by the grace of god I think, he had accidentally taken a screen shot picture instead of shutting down his IM screen. From there I found there were actually three women that he was chatting with. I asked him to leave that night.
Over the weekend we talked and some details came out but I could tell he was not telling the whole truth. It wasn’t until Monday that I was able to get into his e-mail account and there I read pages and pages of instant messages to these girls, confirming that he had been having sex with each of them. I asked him to come home from work and pack up his things and move out.
I was in complete shock at this point. I felt numb. My whole world had just crumbled. My children were devastated to say the least.
As if all this wasn’t enough, over the next couple weeks more and more details came out. I found out that the affair that started 10 years earlier when my mom died had never ended. They had continued their sexcapades but just changed tactics and would go to hotel rooms at lunch time. They would invite in other people men and women to join them. They progressed to posting ads on Craig’s list for other swinger couples. He grew tired of just her and started cheating on her also with other multiple women. He was completely out of control, even replying to personal ads to hook up with strangers when he would go down to work on the cabin that I had inherited.
All the while he was coming home right after work being the family man, never showing this dark side to me. Doing things that I didn’t have a clue that this man was capable of doing! The worse blow was finding in his e-mail account where he had been trying to hook up on personal ads the weekend of our 20th anniversary.
It has been almost 6 weeks since D-day. Both of us have used the internet to try and find help on how to cope the pain and destruction. I found in my research information on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and this describes him to at “T”. And it seems to be getting worse with age. I also read where in some cases crisis or traumas trigger in NPD types to need more attention to fill the emotional void that they are not capable of expressing. Looking at the information that I have uncovered I can relate each tragedy that we had with his acting out escalating one step further.
Before all this was uncovered, I was worrying about him because he seemed to be losing his memory and logic. He would not remember things that had just happened. I had lost faith in his judgment and was discounting his opinion on things. I had taken on all of the responsibilities financially for bills, investments, spending.
I do feel that now he is remorseful and wants to change, but it took him losing everything to find that. His children will barely speak to him, due to the pain of what he has done to the family, and the shock that he was not the person that he portrayed himself to be. They do not know all of the details but the little that they do know feels like a betrayal to them as well.
I know that I need to walk away, that this is not a healthy relationship for me. My head is logical and tells me all these things, but emotionally I can’t seem to walk away. I feel like a parent responsible for her child that I can’t turn my back on him. That I need to see that he gets help for his problem. The problem is he sees what he has done is wrong but he has not opened his mind to see how large scale the problem is. I get frustrated that he can’t see this and yell and scream at him to be heard. I also have a lot of rage inside of me from all of this and I don’t know how to deal with it, so I take it out on him. This doesn’t help me because he doesn’t hear me, he just puts up his defensive wall and I end up drained.
We are both seeing counselors, but that is just once a week, and doesn’t feel like enough when my life is spirally out of control. What can I do? To help me? To help my children through this? To help him see his problem?
I’m despite for desperate advice.