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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N P D Thread part 10
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 9:20 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((((Magnet))))))) I know that you may not be allowed to post here, but if you had a run-in with an NPD, be sure to read as Frank suggested. The people in the WS forum may not have as much NPD information as here, but they are really good at figuring out broken. There is a lot to be learned from them. It's worth the time, because as a fOW, you have to learn about your "why" - as much as you do the "why" of falling prey to an NPD. I think you may find a lot of the answers will be the same... so give that forum a chance.

Care, Rain, Frank and Gma, I agree, there is a line between poking and defending. If you have to defend yourself in the ways you all mentioned, that's not poking, really. It's a necessary step that is regrettable for the possible outcome, but it has to be done. Some things are just not able to be clearly cut along the dotted line.

Thankfully, (or NOT!) I've walked on eggshells for so damn many years, I know pretty much what I can and can't do. Having a label to put on him doesn't change what I know of his reactions after 25 years, though it HAS made me more cautious. He may go completely off when he finds out I am serious about him leaving. (Frying pans come to mind, no pun intended.)

Right now, he still thinks it will all go back to the way it was. Things will be WWIII in a month or two, I suspect. I hope I'm wrong! I know as the day approaches to tell him to get out, I WILL be afraid, though. I'm not looking forward to it, but my son has offered to have his large, strong friends here with us, if I think I'll need them. (As well as 911 pre-dialed on several cell phones, just in case.)

I think what happened with me today was sort of a combination of both, though perhaps more poking than defending. I've said over and over for so long, "I just don't feel good," or "I'm in pain today," or whatever the hell else I've had to say, that I'm sick of lying to avoid trouble with him. I HATE lying. Also, the pent-up anger I have sometimes breaks loose and I can't stop it in time. Usually I can, but today, my filters just failed me.

Sometimes, there just are no lines to follow. That's my final answer. This time. At the moment, for sure.


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
gma56
♀ Member
Member # 19595
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sometimes, there just are no lines to follow
So true !
We have to do whatever we have to legally, I put it off for as long as possible but now it was time. I need to move forward and have a life again.
Best rule when dealing with NPD, pick your battles wisely. Some are unavoidable. That is where I am now but I really couldn't have timed it better if I planned it. FT is distracted by all his other dramas in his life. I'm just one more.
It works for me !!!!!

SoHurt I agree you should plan for the worse and think out every possible scenario when you tell him. they can be so unpredictable and other times you know exactly what they will say and do.
gma


BW-Divorced
It's my life now, my choices, my mistakes to make and my victories to celebrate. His choices made me free of liars and betrayers in my life. I lost my family but gained a second chance to be happy.

Posts: 20275 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Half way to where I want to be.
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just to clarify....

"roll over and play dead" is a figure of speach. The message intended is that I personally will not let her walk all over me simply because I do not want to piss her off or "poke the bear". So yes, sometimes we have to engage. Sometimes we have to poke the tiger.

The Jerry Jeff Walker song "Backslider's Wine" has a line in it that changed my life once. I think it may apply here.

"fight for your rights
but don't just fight for right". That was the point I was trying to make with that long winded post.

So in my "engagment" with her, there was plenty of "sorry you feel that way" and I understand how you would think that" type of responses.

Unfortunately I am no longer wealthy and I can not afford to have someone fight these battles for me at the cost of $200/hour. I have no choice but to engage in order to complete the unfinished business of the marriage and divorce. If I could afford it, I would....just so I would not have to engage and deal with her directly.....Nuff said.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
wontdefineme
♀ Member
Member # 31421
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I broke NC back in November when I knew he was lying to both attorneys and they didn't know who he was and I was made to look like a crazy ex. I proved him wrong. Otherwise if I let the attorneys go back and forth between me saying one thing him replying, me knowing he was lying and back and forth, he was blowing the retainer I have with my attorney. I didn't want to be bled dry. So now I email him and cc my attorney. He keeps doing things to control me the only way he can now, but it always comes back to bite him. I just hope the judge sees me as being a wife that is hurt and him as the NPD he is.

Posts: 2079 | Registered: Mar 2011
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 11:07 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"fight for your rights
but don't just fight for right"

I like that line. I may have to look that song up.

ETA: I hope things go well, Wont. My friend's NPDXWH did that to her, too. Lied and lied. The judge DID see through it. Chin up!

[This message edited by SoHurt at 11:09 PM, February 25th (Saturday)]


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, February 25th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In my case, I HAD to do something that I knew was going to piss her off.

This sound like asking for trouble to me.

But it was done for financial self protection. I won't lie and say that I did not get some satisfaction from the exchange, emotionally. As a matter of fact, it is the first time in this whole mess that I feel like I had any control of the process and proceeding. I knew she would be pissed at me for taking my own actions. Pointing out that her lawyer fucked her over by dragging her feet was my way of redirecting that anger.....I anticipated this and it was a calculated move. If I had not beat her to the filing, her filing would have put me on the defensive legally. I had no choice but to go against her wishes.

I understand wanting to be the "first to the courthouse" but why all the unnecessary contact and letting her know you did it? Why was it so important to throw all of this in her face? If your STBXWW is NPD, you know she's going to be trouble through this divorce. Why go causing more? You don't need to talk to or discuss anything with your STBXW. If she has an attorney and you are representing yourself, file the appropriate paperwork and you can speak to her attorney yourself. Who cares if her attorney is incompetent? Better for you, right? Why tell your WS? So she can go get a better one? What are you thinking???

Frank, you need to take a step back and get your anger in check.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Frank2010
♂ Member
Member # 29438
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but why all the unnecessary contact and letting her know you did it?

The reason for the contact was to find out if she would willingly sigh the Affidavit of Waiver for service so I would not have to pay a prcess server. I do not have the funds for any unnecessary expenses. She had signed and notarized one previously but it was invalid because I had not filed the petition and been assigned a case number. She had indicated in the past that she would not resign one but that was months ago.

She wanted a divorce I was giving it to her. I was handling it because I have waited weeks for her attorney to do it. I know how long it takes and there was no reason I was not served weeks ago.

Who cares if her attorney is incompetent? Better for you, right? Why tell your WS? So she can go get a better one? What are you thinking???

The caculated response was to redirect her rage towards her attorney......and it worked. She is pissed that she spent the last of her money on an attorney that let her down and did not file promptly, So now rather than be pissed at me for filing......she is pissed at her attorney for dragging her feet. So far that move is working out in my favor. Not sure if her attorney will come back with a vengeance since it put her in a bad light with STBX.

Frank, you need to take a step back and get your anger in check.

Not angry at all. It was important to make her have to file a response asking for SS, trying to shift the burdens of $200,000+ of tax debt onto me, and a few other petty things she decided she wanted to pursue......after signing an agreement to seek nothing. It is part of my strategy to address the "Need" of SS VS. Vindictiveness. In Texas the judge can determine the justifiability of spousal support.....it is not an automatic.

I am beyond angry a long time ago. Now it is business negotiation and strategies.....defending my finances from a hostile take over.


Me 56 BS
Her 59 WS NPD(She is Empty)
D-day#1 05-01-10
Dday#2 06-04-10 previous ONS 9-24-09 AFF hookups

Status: S & D'ing


Posts: 1195 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: North Texas
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:45 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not have the funds for any unnecessary expenses

Well guess what? Nobody does. So get ready to pay through the nose. That's just the way it is when going through a divorce with an NPD.

I spent almost $50,000 (that I didn't have) getting rid of mine.

You're not going to be able to rationalize ANYTHING with them. Their sense of entitlement is astonishing during a divorce.

Most, if not all NPS's will spend $500 to get a $5 item in a divorce. And $1000's to get what they are not even legally entitled to. And you will have to pay to keep what is rightfully yours. That's just the way it is. There is no "explaining" to them why that's silly and completely insane, or flushing money down the toilet.

If it were that easy, none of us would be here.

The caculated response was to redirect her rage towards her attorney......and it worked. She is pissed that she spent the last of her money on an attorney that let her down and did not file promptly, So now rather than be pissed at me for filing......she is pissed at her attorney for dragging her feet. So far that move is working out in my favor. Not sure if her attorney will come back with a vengeance since it put her in a bad light with STBX.

THIS is game playing.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 11:10 AM, February 26th (Sunday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 1:11 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it normal for NPDs to want to have all the money?

Mine liked the idea to be viewed as altruistic and generous.....


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 53 | Registered: Nov 2011
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 2:20 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is it normal for NPDs to want to have all the money

Yes. They are incredibly selfish.

Mine liked the idea to be viewed as altruistic and generous.....

Image is everything to the NPD. Even if reality is completely different than the image, it doesn't matter. The image is all important.



It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 2:36 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was lucky then that he signed the contract a year ago, so we didn't have to fight in court....

He plays the role of "poor victim" now.


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 53 | Registered: Nov 2011
soverybetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 32948
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess I have been very lucky with my stbxnpdwh because he has stopped contacting me since we went to court. Granted we do not have kids together so that made it easier but before I filed he was contacting me every 5 days.

I am still waiting for the PO that has been filed with the court and if I do not get it then I am most definietly going to appeal to have a new judge. Stbx admitted in court that he threatened to kill me and that he was going to hit me but stopped when I threatened him with the police. There should be no reason why I don't get the PO but I truly beleive the judge is a woman hater. He refuses to give me more than the minimum SS even though we produced evidence that I am permanently disabled and the rules state that I should get SS for life.

Now I know from reading everyone's replies to Frank that I am gonna get a 2x4 but I couldn't help myself and I poked the whiny bear. Since he has to pay me SS each month he is making it extremely difficult for me to get the check. I have to have someone drive me to the post office each month because he sends it certifed when the judge told him that he could just transfer it to our joint savings. So this month when I signed my name I put XOXO next to it just to let him know that he isn't getting to me and that I just love getting that check each month. HEHE.

I do not care if it pisses him off cause I am so pissed about what his damn attorney is putting me through with all the requested paper work. I have been working on interrogatories and gathering medical, credit, and other papers. I have two full 8x10 envelopes full of the garbage she is requesting and she wants it from 2008 forward. Like I have the money to just dig through all that crap. I guess she forgot that I am disabled and sick a lot of the time.

While I understand that we shouldn't poke the bear there are just times when it is necessary and times when you just get so flickin pissed off that they are getting it easy while you suffer. I am tired of him getting our home that I helped pay for and he is living his life like I never exsisted while I am still trying to figure out all of my illnesses and get the correct medicines for them.

Frank, I think you did the right thing. Do NOT let her bleed you dry and too flippin bad if she doesn't like that you were able to stop her from filing first so she could take you to the cleaners. You are a good man who didn't deserve the crap you are receiving.

None of us deserved the treatment, neglect, walking on eggshells, threats of death or violence from these NPD spouses. We all had something that they wanted and it was our strength and independence. They see that in us and they know that they do not have it so they suck us dry until we are nothing but a shell of the person we were before. I am working hard to be the woman I was before I met stbxnpd. I will overcome the shit he dished out to me and I will be strong and independent once again. I will just do it in a different state. I no longer care what he thinks of me or how I look to him. He is dead to me and in April I will have no more reminders but the monthly check.

Be proud that you were able to walk away and can fix yourself, they are stuck with what they are and they will just suck the next person they meet dry as well. Life for them is empty because they can never truly be happy. They can't feel real true love, they can't feel hope, happiness, comfort, empathy, sympathy or kindness. All they can do is mirror what they see but never feel fulfilled. I pity my stbx but I don't want him anymore.

Hugs to you all on this lovely Sunday. Be proud of yourselves and do something nice for yourself because you deserve it for all that you have been through.


Me-53
DDay 10/16/2010 DDay2 5/22/2011
Divorced 8/23/2012
I will get stronger and better but no matter where he goes, there he is....

Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Being an AWESOME ME!
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So this month when I signed my name I put XOXO next to it just to let him know that he isn't getting to me and that I just love getting that check each month. HEHE.

Letting him know he isn't getting to you is not putting anything. Not complaining about the inconvenience. Finding a way to make that weekly trip to the PO a positive thing, incorporate the ride into a way to get other errands done.

Having sent a "sign" to him, the game will continue and he'll look for the next sign. He won't get bored of the game and use the simple transfer of funds because you engaged and now he is getting ego kibble. Those XOXO mean you have more weeks of PO trips in your future.

You have rewarded his behavior. You gave him something in return for his being a dickhead. So the dickhead behavior will continue.

I GET the frustration and the despair and the whole it is so unfucking fair. I get it. I come here and rant away. I journal I cry I storm and gnash my teeth. I call my mom, I play loud angry music.

Nothing about the interaction with the NPD is fun or fair. I am trying to do everything I can to limit my exposure and to decrease his desire to play with me. I am in court. I am fighting the good fight in the legal arena but without threats or pleas. It is what it is.

Just like dieting (that is hard too), just because you get really really hungry doesn't mean that chocolate cake doesn't put calories on you. There are consequences to giving in to our frustration, anger and the injustice.

svb, as frustrating as getting all that paperwork is, it costs you time. He pays the L to go through it. Small comfort. I know.

I am not saying you roll over and play dead. I am saying be smart. Know what the end game is, know what the consequences are. Weigh the risk and reward.

Look at behavior modification studies. A negative or positive reward reinforces the behavior.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5300 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Soverybetrayed,
Caregiver9000 is right. It is all unfair. And it is all so very frustrating.

You sending your "XXOO's" to this man who has threatened to kill you are probably going to come back to bite you. Even though you meant them to show him that he's "not getting to you", he can now use these as evidence in your request for your PO. These X's and O's may show the court that you are not fearful of him and are actually showing him affection. This action may have completely jeapordized your chances of receiving your PO.

This is another reaon for complete NC. No matter how frustrated you are, no matter how unfair, do not allow yourself to be baited.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
wontdefineme
♀ Member
Member # 31421
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have ignored him blocking me from the phone he uses. He did me a favor as I had wanted to block him to prevent me from running after him. I too, if I am honest, look for attention, that NPD/codependent tug of war I guess.

Back to email. I did however send him an email asking for a private one instead of work email so I can't be accused of harrassing him at work. I did send him an email, cc my attorney, telling him his deposit was too late in the day and funds wont be available until Tuesday. I did mention that I was unable to buy food and a prescription for our son because of this and I had to use a cc. I am trying to keep things documented for court, and to show him that his games of control are backfiring. I need to stay in control of my emotions, which is hard, and keep everything business like.

Advise from the experts that have gone before me please.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Mar 2011
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Send your complaint directly to your attorney and request to have the funds garnished from his paycheck. That is the only way you will receive your pay in a timely manner.

Asking him nicely is only going to get you more lip action.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
wontdefineme
♀ Member
Member # 31421
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My attorney was supposed to do this. Maybe now. But if she chased him everytime he went against original court ordered RO, I would be out of money. He has broken all but 1 out of the 5.

Posts: 2079 | Registered: Mar 2011
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I need to stay in control of my emotions, which is hard, and keep everything business like.

wontdefineme, you are right, it is very hard, but the only possible solution if you want to get things done your way or at least have the best possible result.

Although I also was told differently by several people at the time I often emailed directly as lawyers sometimes make things worse just by using a different kind of language....plus some of them like to earn a lot of money by prolonging this shit.

It proved to be useful though to send my answer to the NPD to my lawyer first. She sometimes just changed a phrase so it could be used in court later, but my NPD never knew a lawyer saw it

It helped a lot to read the old threads to remain businesslike and stay NC most of the time. Because I had to realise what I would have to face if I didnīt. So yes, ist is hard, but we are all here to support you .


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 53 | Registered: Nov 2011
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

plus some of them like to earn a lot of money by prolonging this shit.

Some lawyers may do this. But it's more likely that it's your NPD who is prolonging things. As I've said before, during a divorce an NPD's sense of entitlement will be astonishing. They will not settle for anything less than EVERYTHING. They will fight for every last thing, right down to the candlesticks. They will avoid filling out interrogatories. They will postpone hearings. They will file motion after motion requesting the most ridiculous of the ridiculous. In the mean time, they will be telling everyone who will listen that YOU are the one dragging your feet because you can't bear to live without him.

Your best position is to document, document, document. If you're willing to get out of your marriage with nothing, just leave and don't fight. But if you have something worth fighting for, be prepared to pay. There is no way around it.

NPD's don't care about the money they spend. Most of the time it's not even their money they are spending. It's their mommy and daddy's money or the OW's money. If it is their money, they don't care either. It's win at any cost.

The way you will win is by PROVING your position with DOCUMENTED PROOF of your position. NPD's lie. They think that everyone believes their lies, including judges. Well, a pile of receipts, certificates of ownership, canceled checks, bank statements, etc will beat a big story any day

[This message edited by sadtoo at 4:55 PM, February 26th (Sunday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7926 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Faith2011
♀ Member
Member # 30946
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, February 26th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm so sorry many of you are having to deal with the BS that is your ex NPD spouses.

It's easy to forget these NPD's are not normal. It's okay for other people to engage in some game playing with their ex's and yes, it can be fun 'sticking it up them". But you are not dealing with your average run-of-the-mill ex spouse where a bit of tit for tat doesn't amount to serious consequences for you.

Let them think they are right. Let them think they have "won".

Think about what you need for your wellbeing and put all your energy into YOU.

What is best for you?

As little contact with the NPD as possible. That is what is best for you.

When I finally got my XNPDWH out of the house he thought he had "won" because he took half the furniture. The ONLY things he didn't take where items I either had before we met or I had bought. He even dug up the pool lights he had installed.

But I didn't say a word. Friends and family were aghast when they heard he was planning to take half the furniture. You see, I paid for all our holidays, I paid the bills when he didn't have enough to contribute, I replaced household items when they broke, I paid for his licences, lent him money that he never paid back ...

But what I needed was for him to get out of the house. I needed to be safe from his NPD rages. I used his NPD against him though. He thinks in grandiose terms and short term gratification.

I may have lost half the furniture but I gained peace of mind when he left.

12 months on I have all I need. Kind people donated furniture and other items and I'm slowly getting things replaced.

He may think he 'won' but he is wrong. I have won my right to live a peaceful life. I have won the right to direct my future. And I have won the integrity stakes hands down!

Pick your battles based on what you need for a peaceful life.


BS me
XNPDWH him
DDay Jan 2011

"Live the best life possible."


Posts: 356 | Registered: Jan 2011
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