I still feel it, but I am letting it go. See, YOU don't need to own the consequences of her (in)action.
I know I don't need to own the consequences but unfortunately it seems like if I break the 180 for even a second, 90% of my days are spent thinking about them, dealing with them, trying to make my choices different because of them. At least when I detach from us it's most just the thinking I have to deal with. Detaching is not what I want most days, but I feel forced into it because it't the only thing I get to choose.
If I had to guess I think it's more that she feels she must be the person who pleases everybody. she can't handle it when thinks somebody does not like her. She always changes based on the company she is with. but only in that instance or conversation. She is extremely susceptible to peer pressure. she can instantly go from angry and upset to happy, bubbly excited . I dont' mean she randomly changes.. I mean that if she is crying and somebody stops by the house .. by the time she gets to the door she has flipped.
Wow..I just thought of something .. she is 5 years old all the time.
OR .. I'm completely wrong and she is super passive aggressive and off the charts bat shit crazy
The passive aggressive man is very often seen as the nice guy that would do anything for anybody. He never says "NO", at least not out loud, to any request anyone makes of him. He is often everybody's token doormat. What most people don't know is there's a volcano ready to erupt inside this man. He is too afraid to speak up and tell you what he thinks. Therefore, he goes about his life sneaking around doing things he doesn't want anybody to know about, getting back at people in ways that have nothing much to do with why he's really mad, and not standing up to the person, or persons, he needs too. He then ends up hurting those he cares about.
Just wish they'd flip the gender because almost everything said in this article fits my W to a T, she's been all that in different stages and at different times.
[This message edited by noescape at 4:48 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]
being cornered and saying I'm sorry so you won't get called out on your bullshit behavior anymore.
And it's all so shallow. Every acknowledgement, every acceptance just demonstrates how shallow their thinking really is. Oh yeah, the conversations with the OM(s) and all the relationship building stuff was so deep and meaningful, yet the actual HARD WORK of digging deep inside for empathy or just some fucking simple plain ol sorrow for the loss of everything precious and meaningful is just an afterthought.
her reactions show how freaking incapable she is of basic humanness or plain self examination. All this IC bullshit of inner critic and low self esteem seems so out of whack because I'd think you'd need a super fucking mt. Everest kinda ego (not low self esteem) to actually feel and behave this way.
[This message edited by noescape at 4:49 PM, July 23rd (Monday)]
nice guy that would do anything for anybody. He never says "NO"
change guy to bitch and thats true.
getting back at people in ways that have nothing much to do with why he's really mad
But in 18 years I have never seen this. I have never seen her do anything to get back at anyone... maybe I'm just blind.
Could she just be massively passive/aggressive and saved all the aggressive to get back at me? Could I just have missed all the get back at people cause I wasn't paying attention? ..... Could she just get back at everyone by taking it out on others with no connection to the issues ( my older girl keeps telling me that she wasn't always sweet and nice when she was a teenager? I always put that up to the common mom/daughter crap that happens even though she wasn't her mom biologically she raised her from the time she was 4.
Could she just be massively passive/aggressive and saved all the aggressive to get back at me? Could I just have missed all the get back at people cause I wasn't paying attention?
Ummmmm, yeah. It's fucking hard to believe but that's exactly what I've been discovering for the last 16 months. What a fucking dumb-ass I was/am.
Sometimes the anger/resentment bubbling under is palpable but deceptively unnoticeable if you know what I mean. It's a wisp of *something* not being right;but try working out that shit without the clarity that a DDay (and it's aftermath) brings.
Base line is, all this shit is so fucking insidious, how can you blame someone for not noticing it? Specially if they're busy playing nice and (on the surface) compliant.
I probably exhibit a few of these qualities myself, though, to have them all in one person seems unfeasable but... As they say... If the shoe fits.
Btw, getting back at someone does not necessarily mean AT them. It could act out as self inflicted harm or other sleight on someone else or just poisoning the relationship without the other person knowing for sure. Crazy making at its best. It's exactly what can lead (eventually) to an A unless strict boundaries are in place.
Wow..I just thought of something .. she is 5 years old all the time
Something you said:
I want to be with her. I want to have a family together. I want to make this work
Sounds like you deeply want for your marriage to work, for your family to stay together and intact. It sounds like you want that so much that you have even been experimenting with just how much of your own happiness and piece of mind you are willing to sacrifice to make that happen. Trust me I know the feeling. I think it is a fundamental flaw in a lot of men's thinking(well, in my thinking at least) that we feel like we need to be this rock, this steady constant feature in an otherwise turbulent world. It's this weird kinda gender stereotype male chauvinist attitude ingrained inside of us that things will work right as long as we do right. And by extention, if shit goes wrong it's gotta be because we didn't try hard enough, didn't do enough, didn't sacrifice enough. It's the place where I think that so much of us betrayed men's blaming ourselves comes from. It's the same place this kind of statement comes from:
I do believe it is my duty to try everything I possibly can even if it doesn't make sense. I feel obligated because I married her, I said those fucking words to her at our wedding, I had a child with her and I loved her with out any doubts for 15 years
So here you are, wanting your marriage and family to stay together but starting to question just how much of yourself you are willing to sacrifice after all. And there your wife is, undoubtably wanting your marriage and family to stay together and waiting to see just how much of yourself you are willing to sacrifice after all. The goals are the same and the common denominator for both of you is you sacrificing yourself.
It's just a variation of cake eating on her part really, isn't it? She gets to keep the family and the marriage, injured, bleeding and limping though it may be, and she gets to avoid all the painful introspection and work that true Reconcilliation entails. Fucking win/win for her! And, on some level, she thinks she can get away with this because she knows just how badly you want this marriage and family to stay together and work.
Which is why, in the end, the only way this shit gets any better is if you decide to let go of the outcome. And, if you are anything like me, that is probably one of the hardest parts of this whole fucked up hard as hell process.
Thing is, you want your marriage to work, but you wanting that is pretty much immaterial. You want your family to be together and whole, but you wanting that is immaterial. You probably still love your wife, but you loving her is immaterial. The only thing that is material in this decision is just how much shit you are willing to tolerate and still remain a sane, relatively content and mostly balanced dude. You've been experimenting with figuring that out for 2 years now and it sounds like the answer to that question might just be: "considerably less shit than I am tolerating right now."
So if you are simply unable to tolerate this shit the way it is? Well then you are in the unique position of being able to flip the script on that ironic, fucked up power imbalance that I referred to earlier. Aren't you? You might be more emotionally invested in the outcome than she is but on the flip side you have the powerful leverage of finally knowing exactly where you want to draw your line in fucking sand. You can actually finally say: "I want this marriage and I love my wife but I will no longer tolerate X (whatever X may be for you), and if that means the end of my marriage? Well that's sad but so be it." When you can simply set that shit down and define it? Not as a method of trying to get her to do what you want; which would just be putting the power back into her hands. Not as a way of punishing her; which is really just a kind of empty coercion. But instead really seeing it and understanding it as a simple matter of personal fucking self preservation? When you can see it that way and really mean it? On a deep down, gut check, visceral level? Man that is a beautifully freeing fucking feeling. That shit essentially changes or nullifies all of the fucked up unspoken rules of these dysfunctional relationship games she is playing. It is a fucking total system reset.
For me it was all of the lying and minimizing that did it. For months I did everything I could think of to get her to just tell me the fucking truth already.. I raged at her, I sobbed in front of her, I rationed with her, I bargained with her, I begged and fucking pleaded with her. Most of all I threatened to leave her. But in the beginning I know I really didn't mean it on that deep down visceral level. Because, you see, I was more emotionally invested in the outcome of the relationship than she was at that point. And I think on some level she sensed that and sensed that it was just an empty threat. I wasn't going anywhere really. I knew it on some level, and on some level she knew it too. And she kept up with the little lies and minimizing and omitting facts and we kept on dancing our dance, and something wasn't right and my gut just knew it.
Then at some point I actually started to honestly let go of the outcome. I stopped trying to get her to tell me the truth and simply decided that I would not tolerate anymore lies. Not out of anger, or vengeance, or as a warning of some kind. Just as a simple decision made for no other purpose than preserving my own fucking sanity.
Then I caught her in another lie. And I was out. I told her it was over, went to stay at my friends place and started researching divorce lawyers. I wasn't trying to scare her, wasn't trying to manipulate her into changing. Frankly I assumed that she would do nothing. I was certain that she would simply assume I was bluffing and just try to wait me out. Just weather this emotional storm like she had been patiently weathering all of the others. Doing nothing real or meaningful and just waiting for it to blow itself out.
Only I wasn't bluffing this time. For really the first time ever I actually meant it. I wasn't even angry about it so much as I was just sad and disappointed about how it all turned out. At the same time I felt this strange sence of peace... I had given it a good try, I had been clear in my expectations, I had done all that there was in MY power to do. It hadn't worked out because she simply wasn't capable of telling me the truth, I could live with that.
And that was the moment when my FWW finally decided to pull her head out of her ass. October 2010; you might have heard the sound, it made quite an audible POP considering how far she had had it wedged up there. She sat down on her own and wrote me a 16 page single spaced complete, detailed, thorough and painfully honest timeline. Took her two days of doing pretty much nothing but working on it. I read that and decided to give it ONE LAST TRY. Guess it turned out my line in the sand had one more line a little further beyond it. But I didn't know that going in... and that is terribly important to understand.
I'm not telling you this story as any kind of model on how to do anything. Believe me, my journey thus far has been way to fucking riddled with mistakes to be anything like a fucking model to follow. Cautionary tale if anything LOL. I am simply telling you as an example of maybe how to look at things. I am not trying to tell you that if you just let go of the outcome your wife is going to suddenly snap out of it and turn a corner. I am simply telling you this: If you can truely find a way to let go of the outcome, draw your line in the sand and really mean it. If you can finaly decide you have sacrificed enough on the bloody alter of your relationship and finally start to put your own mental health and wellbeing first in this mess?
Well ,then it won't fucking matter what she does one way or the other.
If she finally realizes the time for bullshiting around and playing dysfunctional controlling games is over? Hey fucking great! You guys can finally start working on R for real and earnest. If not? Well then you finally have your answer on what to do, don't you? Hey fucking great! No more trying to get her to be someone she isn't capable of being, no more sacrificing so much that you got nothing left of yourself to give back to you. Win/Win for DustNBones for a nice fucking change.
The key in letting go of the outcome though is that you really gotta fucking mean it. And that's the really hard part of it all. How do you simultaneously care deeply about the outcome you want whilst, at the same time, letting go of trying to make that outcome happen? By stopping trying to change and control the things you simply cannot change or control: namely other people and their actions. And start focusing on what you can change and control: yourself and your actions.
Once again I have managed to vomit out a big old' stream of consciousness post that is waaaay to fucking long, probably full of bad ideas and inaccuracies and should be taken with an enormous fucking grain of salt. As usual take what works for you and disregard what doesn't. Lord knows that's what I do.
Best of luck my man,
It's just a variation of cake eating on her part really, isn't it? She gets to keep the family and the marriage, injured, bleeding and limping though it may be, and she gets to avoid all the painful introspection and work that true Reconcilliation entails. Fucking win/win for her! And, on some level, she thinks she can get away with this because she knows just how badly you want this marriage and family to stay together and work
How effing true!!!!! God, country, honor fuckity fuck.
The bottom line is that many WS' simply need to face the harsh consequences of their actions. The BS fog that so many of us go through (being clingy, needy, desperate, sacrificial) just simply enables them to continue treating us like doormats, and they will cake-eat all day long if we let them. A little tough love, with 100% conviction, goes a long way (at least it did in my case).
because you cannot change crazy in someone else. I have been D for almost three years and the crazy keeps giving me ventures into nonreality scripted by exw.
She is unable to stop trying to control, manipulate, and dominate every aspect of our co-parenting and my life. I used to give in to keep peace. She would take that as a green light to break every agreement re: co-parenting and finances.
Thursday she went bat shit physically attack me crazy because I was not "talking to her about her day" and found out "I was dating several women and I was intimate with a few of them." This from a woman with a long term boyfriend that is around my littles all the time.
She will not change. I doubt she can. But what she also can't do is meddle with me anymore.
That is the key whether you are going R or not. Don't let the WWs meddle with your thinking anymore. They do not deserve that kind of head space until they earn it back by fixing their shit. Without that, they shouldn't matter beyond being the spooge rag they morphed into and maybe the mom they are supposed to be.
It is also liberating to let go of what you "think" you should "think" about your ww. Once you accept she was/is a whore, self centered, manipulative, crazy nut job that will do anything to get what she wants then it becomes quite easy to focus on the people that matter: You and your Littles.
On a side note... finally got proof the DA boyfriend and victim service friend is in on her threat shenanigans and the internal affair investigation is now a green light. The RO can now go through. She will never fucking touch me again. I never have to speak to her again. Now... if custody wasn't so impossible to change...
Also- don't shoot the POSOM. Find a way to extract the revenge you need- I got exww OM fired and ran out of the state with a few phone calls that provided dates and times. It felt pretty good. There is always a way.
Hang in there. Good things do eventually happen after all this.
"Please don't ever lower yourself to their existence."
That is the one thing a stupid, lying whore can never do- which is strip us of who we are.
I believe it would not be worth the ammo to wind up in a cell with Bubba, (no offense to anyone named Bubba), but it's healthy, normal and would be considered strange, at a minimum, if we did not have these feelings of revenge.
Glad to hear you're doing better, mpb. Keep going forward man. Retired and getting paid to take care of your own kids sounds like an awesome goal, good luck.
I don't know who said this - probably noescape - but I've been reading the last couplof pages and I have to say...
I am incredibly moved by you all. There are eternal themes here at work.
Things that won't change throughout eternity.
I have dragged, right clicked and copied SO MANY thoughtful insights here. We are together brothers)))) Whether we D or stay. It's all in you.
Reminds me of something, when I was once new here, among anonymous friends who pour their soul's heart out, and are SAFE. I did. I did say this;
The drums from the fires of the D camp beat loudly my brother.
Their fire is bright and fills the night.
Though not as bright,
the R campfire burns deep.
With stones of love and rocks of awe.
Fed with centered knowing wisdom things,
by the Chiefs.
We who travel tween the two,
listening to the tales of the wise ones
who glimmer there.
Learn again to pray and weep
and laugh and sing.
We breathe the smoke
and tell the tales again,
surviving step by step,
as moving through this fire lit valley,
I’ve met and clasped the hands of brothers
They’ve helped me breathe
<<<<<pokes wal in the eye!
we got Holding Together who is like wal v 2.0
(ok ok! 1.5!)
- Understanding, Forgiving, Honorable me
You got 1 out of three - the honorable one. When you think ab it...well, what do you come up with?
fail = win imo.
Understanding (may come later)
Forgiving (may come later)
Well, you get to clutch that close to your heart now (and stfu about "for all the good that'll do ya"!)
Since that's a truth,
and it's eternal,
STRENGTH TO YOU
Be selfish, be indifferent, enjoy yourselves, enjoy your kids. The WWs won't take care of you, so take care of yourselves.
I got a doc friend to Rx some Xanax for 'spot use' & he suggested a 'dry run' to see how it works, you know - get a feel for it. I'll do it Fri or Sat night, so if I come on here again posting more groaning irrelevancies, you'll know why...hehe.
Feel pretty good about it, have had NC at all for a couple of years...but it still gives me a small j jones to imagine facing her.
I'll probably be thinking insanely funny thoughts...like that 'Someone I Used to NOT know' song I'll twist around in my head.
I'm thinking suppressed laughter...heck...I might just let er rip and lol in her face.
Narcissists abhor mockery most of all.
They fear abandonment most of all.
So, a little chuckle, alot? - as I walk away is my plan.
quedagh - sounds good man, hope the outcome of the internal investigation is a nice big marble bag for you. Fukkers.
I was in a mixed group recently, when that fucked-up Fiat-girl-slaps-guy commercial came on. No one batted an eye, until I said; "Hey gang, reverse the genders, let's see a guy slapaho...how does that sit?"
I got to see the light come on in eyes.
Tecate beer had a similar one.
Fuck you Fiat. and
Fuck you Tecate.
I feel like writing to corporate & basting some metrosexual's balls on a barbeque. Sounds fun.
mpb))) I hope the stars align someday and a bunch of us can meet at the beach...Outer Banks? Red Bank?...Don't think there's ever been a menz-only gtg on SI...hmmm.
I miss the beach. I would save $$ to do that!
HoldingTogether, I'm lifting just this one from your really dam good post.
It's been rough yes, but it sounds like a lot of us are getting it.
How do you simultaneously care deeply about the outcome you want whilst, at the same time, letting go of trying to make that outcome happen?
By making the outcome
we got Holding Together who is like wal v 2.0
^^^^I was thinking the exact same thing. HT is devastatingly thoughtful and aware.
Don't think there's ever been a menz-only gtg on SI...hmmm
I'd be in.