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User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 8
foundoutlater
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Default  Posted: 8:04 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

VD2012 Ė man you may be rambling but not babbling. This shit sucks and takes time to get anywhere close to feeling like you know what the hell you think or feel about it all and can and cannot figure out or deal with. Just wanted to say nothing you wrote is babbling Ė it makes sense. It takes time to figure out what it all really means to you.

I gotta go, but I wanted you to at least know that. Hopefully one of the more insightful BMís will be along soon.


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
VD2012
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Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 9:36 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the kind words. I sometimes feel so scattershot with what's going through my head and worry I don't make sense.


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I already admitted to myself months ago that perhaps I was viewing it as a "that's mine", being somewhat possessive of her and even regarding her as an object. But that's not really it. I miss the "we're awesome" feel of being each other's first and onlys, and this has ruined that. And now for the first time in our entire relationship I've actually thought about other women and even what it would be like to have sex with someone else.

Call me neanderthal, but I think spouses *should* feel possessive of the other's sexuality. That's like, you know, *in* the wedding vows -- "Hey, all my sexies, I'm pledging them to you. They're yours. We're one flesh. My body is your body."

I can guaran-fucking-tee you that if you walked into your kitchen one day prior to the A and said to your wife, "Hey, baby, my body is mine. Mine sex is mine. I can share it with whoever I want, and you don't get a say in it. Just wanted you to know."...the shit would have hit the fan. Why? Because you belonged to her.

That's the thing with infidelity. The wayward partner inevitably has that conversation somewhere in their head with themselves, taking back their exclusive sexuality as their personal right...only they're not going to tell their spouse, because if they told their spouse, then their spouse might decide to do the same thing. And that's the *last* thing they want. They want to own their own sexuality and use it as they please, and then own yours, too.

(Have you hit the stage yet where your wife is hyper-vigilant about who you might be talking to, who you might be contemplating revenge with, checking your phone, demanding transparency, etc.? That's because she believes she very much has a stake in owning your sexuality. It's hers, or it's shared at the very least. It isn't solely yours like hers was, because if she truly believed that, what you did with your dick when you weren't with her wouldn't bother her, because she wouldn't think it was her business.)

As for the rest of it, I don't have any good advice for coming to terms with the loss of special-ness. You just have to grit your teeth and bear it as far as I can tell -- which is hard for dude's in your position (or any guy who held himself fairly chaste for marriage). You can validate a lack of pre-marital sexual variety in our culture if you're onlies. That makes it romantic. When you're not, then people start to wonder what kind of asexual dork you are. Lack of partners becomes a source of shame. (Note: I'm not saying that is valid, just acknowledging that it is, and unless you confine yourself to conservative religious circles, lack of sexual partners becomes almost as shame-inducing as having more partners than you've got fingers to count them on.)

I'm 40 years old, and I still get looks like I'm crazy or deformed when I tell people that I've married both of the women I've had sex with. It's like I'm a historical curiosity. It doesn't help that I'm a computer programmer.

How does your wife give that back to you? That special-ness? I have no idea. I've spent the last few years since my wife's A realizing that I *am* a historical curiosity. My parents were deeply religious. They've been married for 45 years. They never even *dated* anyone other than one another. That was the model for relationships I had, so I didn't really even date much in high school, because I believed that dating should lead to marriage. If you didn't think she was marriage material, why bother dating her? When you met someone who knocked your socks off, *then* you dated and hoped it would end in marriage. If you just wanted to fuck her because she was hot...well, that was using somebody else.

And now I realize that it's like me and five other people on the planet who still believe that. Or, should I say, it's those five people and used-to-be-me. Everybody's fucking somebody. They're fucking lots of people. They're having fun, breaking their hearts, playing games, getting laid, screwing around, fucking prostitutes, picking up people in bars, cheating on their wives, cheating on their husbands, making out in closets and the back seats of cars...the vast majority of people are doing it, doing lots of it, doing it illicitly...and nobody cares. I'm the one who was out of step.

It's not special. Shit, my dogs do it in the front yard, and most of my neighbors probably would, too, if the neighborhood watch didn't keep them in line.

I was remarking to my wife the other day about the remarkable role reversal we've had since her A. I believed for 30+ years that sex was sacred, special, a deep and sublime intimacy designed to deepen the relationship between people. My wife (who was more experienced) used to tell me that it was just another form of exercise. Fun exercise. No emotions or investment required.

After her affair, she deeply accepted the idea that sex was supposed to be special and sacred, because she'd seen the consequences of abusing it in the context of a lasting relationship. I went the other way and realized that it was just, you know, sex. Everybody does it, and there's nothing particularly sacred or special about it. It's all chemical reactions, PEA's and pheromones. Who cares who anybody's fucking?

(Note: I'm also not saying that the model I inherited from my parents was *wrong*. Wrong is what doesn't work, and their model worked for them because both of them committed to it and stuck to that commitment. It's wrong for me because their example was valid for my experience. Different strokes. But I can't go back to their model as the right and correct one any more than they could come over to mine, at this point. We don't share enough relationship points in common for such a conversion to be meaningful. Telling my parents that "it doesn't matter in the long run who or how many people you decide to have sex with" would hold the same value as telling them that "all cows are blue". They couldn't parse it in any valid way.)

Anyway, this is a long way around of letting you know that the issue you're wrestling with is normal. You'll find your own resolution to it in time. It might turn out to be a dealbreaker; it might not -- too early to tell. It will stop consuming you eventually, tough. The price will probably be that you stop seeing your wife as super-special-awesome-one-of-a-kind-soulmates and more as "the chick I happened to marry", but I don't think there's any functional difference there, anyway. The soulmate thing was always just a fantasy, anyway.

(For the record: You know what the single biggest determining factor is in who you marry? It's not love. Not God. Not angels shooting you in the but with sex-arrows. It's not even chemistry and pheromones.

It's geography. Where you live. Where you live determines your pool of available candidates. You pick your spouse out of the set of women you know in a given place during a certain period of time. If you grew up in one area, that pool is very likely to be the subset of "chicks who went to your school". Not this "of all the women in all possible worlds, fate brought you to me" bullshit. The fact that you live in the same town and had parents who did the giggity at roughly the same time brought you together. If you'd lived in another town or even been born five years later, you'd have met, fallen in love with, and married someone completely different and been just as happy.

But I digress.)

Welcome to the men's thread, V.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
PanicAttack53
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Default  Posted: 1:58 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PA53... why do you NEED that spark? what you're describing sounds more like developing mature love. If you have a good foundation of respect/honour anything else on top is a bonus IMHO.

Sparks (as I see them) are overrated and seem more like the surface-y things we're attracted to.

Thanks for your input noescape. I guess I didn't explain myself very well in my last post. It's a common occurrence for me lately. The more I think I have a handle on this shit, the more I find out how truly fucked up I still am.

With that said, excuse me but I'm gonna vent here for a moment and also try to explain this feeling I have. This is not directed at anyone. I'm just feeling confused and pissed right now and need to get it out.

Goddammit!!!! I WANT & need to feel an attraction or (a spark) in my M. I had it before this shit storm and I want it back! If I wanted a relationship without the spark of romance, I wouldn't be worried now! Especially after what I've been through the last seven months. I'd just get a fuckbuddy that I could talk to about insignificant shit once in a while between romps in the sack. BTW, romance to me is a whole lot more than puppy love or the warm fuzzies. I gave that shit up when I was 12. It's also more than just a sexual attraction.

Romance to me means the total package. But most of all, a partner you can feel totally naked with i.e., tell anything to, share anything with or more succinctly...complete openness without repercussions. I used to have that, or at least I thought I did before d-day.

Now due to rediscovering myself in IC and finally seeing past my codependency, I sometimes feel like I'm living with a fucking stranger. No being totally naked. No feeling safe to express my most secret thoughts to the one person I thought I could depend on and trust unconditionally. No romance because of that, and therefore NO attraction other than raw sex, at least for me now. In other words, I feel like I lost one of the most important aspects of our M. The one thing that made her special and attractive to me. It just isn't there anymore and it's scary as hell.

I may be living in a fantasy world in wanting and needing that, but it's the way I feel. I'm just wondering if I'll ever get it back, or if I'm wasting my time trying to R. Sorry to ramble and I hope this at least made some sense.

OK, vent over. Am I fucked up and/or wrong for wanting this back? If I need a 2x4 or two, let me have it please.

[This message edited by PanicAttack53 at 3:27 AM, August 4th (Saturday)]


Me-BH Her-XWW | B/ 60 | D final on 10/1/13 I'm Lovin' life again!
Rest of the story really doesn't matter any more.
ďRealize deeply that the present moment is all you have.Ē ― Eckhart Tolle

Posts: 868 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Midwest
foundoutlater
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Default  Posted: 2:50 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL,

When I said I hoped a more insightful BM would come along, you were one of the BMís I had in mind. We need a better acronym than BM though. That one is, well itís crappy.

I just can't agree with you about sex, at least not yet. Iím not disagreeing yet either, Iím at a point where I just donít believe I have a grip on this. Iím talking about sex outside of a committed relationship. I've been trying to sort this out for myself and figure out what I believe. Mainly because I have children and this will be an issue they will be confronting. I am hoping this is not something Iíll need to deal with personally. I donít see a divorce in the future.

I believed the optimal number of partners in a lifetime was one. My views were shaped originally by religion, but I was still in high school, seeing what others were doing and the consequences of it all when I started to believe that fucking around was often just someone using somebody and that somebody was going to end up hurt. I also believed that there was an intimacy issue - that fucking around made it hard or near impossible to be in a relationship in the future where sex and intimacy could be more than just exercise and a sexual release. Just fucking around seemed to warp peopleís view of relationships and sex. So then I viewed sex as an intimate act with someone you were in a relationship with, where love was involved and where the potential for a future existed (marriage). So not only could it bad for the girl you were going after, it was also not good for me. Thatís where I am now, but I donít think I have myself completely convinced that itís true for those that are single.

Like you I have always felt like I was archaic and nearly alone in thinking fucking around was not a good idea (or just plain wrong). Now I know Iím not so alone, but Iím defiantly in the minority on this issue and it seems each generation there are less and less people who think this way. Just because so many are fucking around though is not where I'm going to find my view, my outlook on sex and intimacy. Problem is I'm still so twisted up working through all this shit I don't have a clue where I'll come out on it all.

My wife was my only. After I found out she cheated for a couple years before we married I spiraled. I came through, but I did not deal with it really, just buried it and started to lose my way. This exact issue about sex became all messed up in my head. A couple years after I found out she had cheated the entitlement kicked in, then I started to think that I was just stupid to go to my grave not having been with another woman. Lotís more bullshit wayward thinking, and more shit from my wife (who was back at fucking the AP and I was unaware). But I still held onto some things and I could not just go out and fuck someone and I could not chance hurting my wife. Even after what she had done. What I had lost though was the part about me Ė I did not fuck around because it was not what I thought was good for me. So I wanted to go down the wayward road and I was scared. I just knew that if I struck up a relationship, like a FWB situation it would not work for me Ė Iíd get emotionally attached. I chose the safest way I could find, a legal brothel. I actually thought I was smart. What a stupid thing. I know I am smart, and I am proof that smart is stupid too. I already knew what I went there to find out Ė I was not after sex, sex was an expression of intimacy for me. No matter how nice a hooker is you are a payday in the end. At that point I knew for me that my thoughts about sex and intimacy rang true for me, that just sex was not for me. That was over fifteen years ago. Over the last year going through all this shit, finding out my wife was fucking that same asshole when we were going to MC and trying to work it all out, I have realized how messed up my thinking was. How the hell did I go down that road is something Iíve started to figure out. I guess we have all screwed up in our lives, but not like this. I still donít want to believe I did it. Now that Iím all over the place about this shit, not inside a relationship, but what is healthy (for both parties) in the dating world.

So you kind of indicated that you have given up on the specialness. Youíve been working through this for a few years. Do you think this is where you end up, or is this a place on the road you need to be at right now. In other words, do you feel like there is room for you to change your thoughts on it?

I get the line of reasoning about how geography is the best indicator of who your mate will be but I think there is more to it. The geography just limits the number of options. Within that group there are only so many that are compatible to you. And then as far as specialness, I think it is a lot like love. It is built and it is actions that allow for the feelings. The actions might help us feel good, but it is the actions that get the job done. Iím kind of tired and rambling, but what I really would find interesting is your process (and other BMs), the how you got to where you are right now on this issue. Because I could use some others frame of reference right about now.


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 4:58 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PanicAttack53 & VD2012, donít worry about intruding or anything, weíre just having a bit of fun. Anything goes here - any time.

fol;

We need a better acronym than BM though. That one is, well itís crappy.

I laughed.
I played with this acronym awhile back - snark galore - to the point of irritation, so I stopped.

@ spark: You say you want it back, and it's eating at you. I'm starting with the idea that the spark was comprised of all the elements that were changed, even destroyed by the WW's actions. 'Onlies intimacy'.

It sounds like grieving the loss of something special, let's face it, you'll never get back. It's sucks so very large - but it's dead, Jim.
You can't unfuck the donkey.

As a mental exercise, like trying on a new suit, try seeing it that way. Grieve for its loss, allow yourself that, it's not only normal, but it's a necessary part of healing! When you've grieved enough - acknowledged it, accepted it (in the sense that "it happened" not that "it's ok"), then you'll "let it go"...you'll know when, your gut will tell you.
It'll be the precioussss ring in the volcano...gone.

Now what?
If you're Reconciling, you forge a new ring. Sounds like work? Welp, so I've heard...
Part of the emotional dynamic in R is fear. Fear of being unable to forge the new. What will it look like? How does it feel? Will it fit?
Who knows?
Either way, and no matter what - you forge ahead. Now that's courage.
Have hope too!
In most of the stories of truly successful R that I read about on here, the new ring is better than the old.

@ sex. It's funny, but I imagine the wimmenz that poke their noses in here, and read about how incredibly valuable, intimate, and special it is to you...what?
I'd *imagine* some of them are either swooning to hear a real man, you know, "a man like you",
or,
they're gnashing their teeth wishing they had "a man like you."

We talk about how 'everybody's doing it - and no one cares', as if it's a justification, or some kind of irresistible siren-pull, you know, an 'influence'.

& here we got a core that are basically saying; "Fuck that" -
and sticking to their values.
Even with slip ups, mistakes, lesson learned, etc. We come back around to our own true inner selves, the one that gazes back from the mirror & smiles.

FTR, after Dday, I hated sex, TV, movies, songs...everything that marinates in it (see profile).

From one who has arrived at this value from the other direction (other context, other partners, no onlies)
- I admire the hell out of you. More than you know.
- In the future, I will settle for nothing less than the spark - the deep one, the one that old couples, sitting in the pews, walking through stores holding hands - have.

Others can go ahead, and count the number of times their dick is wet as the measure of a man.
I've learned to listen for my heart, how it sings.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
foundoutlater
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Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Iíd been away from the BM thread for awhile and was trying to catch up some. I saw the movie plot stuff and thought jjct started all the fun, looks like he just ran with a good thing. Did not realize it was about how a BM G2G would be dangerous to the WWís APís Ė it probably is wrong but it warms my heart and makes me smile Ė thanks for that HT.
I see a complete franchise here. One where it is like those hostage movies, where the dad peels back all humanity to get his kid back. Another akin to the movie out now Savages, but it can just be torture for pleasure, find them, rack them, torture and smile. Hell I can think of all sorts of fun to be had along these lines. Jjct there has to be at least one good book or movie in this. A G2G and a couple of beers could be just the thing.

BTW and completely unrelated, the OM acronym does not work for me Ė it implies a man was present and the word other infers that he is connected to me, like a reflection or similar being. I am the man and he is the other man. Well in my case he is a boy at best in most respects (the Keebler Elf that was banished from the tree is more like it). And other than some anatomy there is no similar reflection. And I donít have an AP in my case that is some complete wack, complete asshole or total derelict. I donít know how this OM thing does not bother others Ė probably me being overly sensitive to stupid words.

So thatís two acronyms I have issue with. OM is out for me. BM, well Iíll use it but Iíll laugh every time, especially when I am saying something like ďyou were the BM so whyÖĒ Ė Iím not calling anyone a piece of shit in that line but my juvenile brain will always here it.
@ jjct

I played with this acronym awhile back - snark galore - to the point of irritation, so I stopped.

Sorry to here it Ė a BM irritation is no fun


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just can't agree with you about sex, at least not yet. Iím not disagreeing yet either, Iím at a point where I just donít believe I have a grip on this. Iím talking about sex outside of a committed relationship. I've been trying to sort this out for myself and figure out what I believe. Mainly because I have children and this will be an issue they will be confronting. I am hoping this is not something Iíll need to deal with personally. I donít see a divorce in the future.

By all means, please feel free to disagree with me on this point. This is one of those parts of personal recovery that I feel is highly individual, and everyone has to do what works for them. There will be stages, challenges to formerly held beliefs, and permanent alterations in the landscape of how we think about relationships -- and some of the things that we always believed will get buried for awhile, and then re-emerge, having been purified by the fire of tests and trials.

I'm teaching my sons that sex is special, that it's not something you give or take casually. I don't talk to them about my personal feelings on the matter, because I don't want them to inherit the model of my experience. I want them to inherit what my parents taught me. I still think it's a standard one should aspire to...it's just not an authentic one for me anymore. But that doesn't mean it can't be for my kids.

I mean, you also have to understand that for a guy who chose to reconcile, a changing attitude on the function/value/specialness of sex doesn't really have a functional impact. I'm still just having sex with my wife, still enjoy having sex with my wife, still choose to *only* have sex with my wife...I've just given up the moral/intellectual kibbles of that being the only "right" way to conduct a relationship.

And you're also entirely correct in your assessment that this might just be a stage in my progress. Ask me in five more years, and I might be firmly back in the camp that says fewer partners and deep, committed relationships is really the optimum way to conduct things. I'm completely open to the idea that I need the attitude I've got currently to protect some part of my heart that I haven't acknowledged as wounded yet.

I believed the optimal number of partners in a lifetime was one. My views were shaped originally by religion, but I was still in high school, seeing what others were doing and the consequences of it all when I started to believe that fucking around was often just someone using somebody and that somebody was going to end up hurt. I also believed that there was an intimacy issue - that fucking around made it hard or near impossible to be in a relationship in the future where sex and intimacy could be more than just exercise and a sexual release. Just fucking around seemed to warp peopleís view of relationships and sex. So then I viewed sex as an intimate act with someone you were in a relationship with, where love was involved and where the potential for a future existed (marriage). So not only could it bad for the girl you were going after, it was also not good for me. Thatís where I am now, but I donít think I have myself completely convinced that itís true for those that are single.

Ha! Your experience sounds like mine. I think I've mentioned that my father was a minister. Those roots run deep, man, and his views on sex (especially given the trajectory of my parents' relationship) tended toward the conservative. My younger brothers lived exactly the opposite lifestyles -- dozens of girlfriends, dozens of casual sex partners. They've both settled down now with wives and kids, came back to religious lifestyles -- one became a minister, the other does active/frequent missionary work -- and they both talk about regretting all of their experience. They married religious women with little to no sexual experience. At the end of the day, they wanted women like mom, and one of their greatest sources of shame is that they couldn't bring a similar level of "purity" to their wives. It's an interesting reversal. (One of my brothers, to this day, refuses to join Facebook because he doesn't want to be tracked down by any of his old girlfriends because he doesn't want those friend invitations to hurt his wife. Plus, he had a *ton* of crazy exes.)

I get the line of reasoning about how geography is the best indicator of who your mate will be but I think there is more to it. The geography just limits the number of options. Within that group there are only so many that are compatible to you. And then as far as specialness, I think it is a lot like love. It is built and it is actions that allow for the feelings. The actions might help us feel good, but it is the actions that get the job done. Iím kind of tired and rambling, but what I really would find interesting is your process (and other BMs), the how you got to where you are right now on this issue. Because I could use some others frame of reference right about now.

I think you're dead on here and explained what I was trying to get at better than I did.

This has been some really good discussion, and I'm glad you took the time to answer it and talk about your own views and how you got to the place where you're at. It's good for the new guys and the guys who are lurking to see that there's more than one right answer: the right answer is what works for you, and the most important part is doing the digging and interrogating your own attitudes as they crop up so you understand what you believe and why you believe it. It's those tested and proved principles that we cling to that make us strong and guide us safely into healing.

(Doesn't make the road to get there any easier, but it's a ton healthier than just going wherever the wind blows and finding ourselves in strange harbors because we rugswept our own suffering rather than taking it out and examining it closely to understand where the hurt was really coming from.)

The pain from this shit does not last forever. It all fades. Life finds a "normal" again -- a new normal, sometimes a radically different normal, but normal all the same. The least that should be said for the process is that we came to a deeper understanding of ourselves and the sort of men we want to be and the sort of men we want to teach our children to be.

Thanks for digging into this, found.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 10:49 AM, August 4th (Saturday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

where the dad peels back all humanity to get his kid back

Heck, now you're giving me ideas of how The Patriot panned out. Like the hidden animal buried deep within each BMs personal past came out.

Or, as Kurt Russell put it in Tombstone

Wyatt Earp: All right, Clanton... you called down the thunder, well now you've got it! You see that?
[pulls open his coat, revealing a badge]
Wyatt Earp: It says United States Marshal!
Ike Clanton: [terrified, pleading] Wyatt, please, I...
Wyatt Earp: [referring to Stilwell, laying dead] Take a good look at him, Ike... 'cause that's how you're gonna end up!
[shoves Ike down roughly with his boot]
Wyatt Earp: The Cowboys are finished, you understand? I see a red sash, I kill the man wearin' it!
[lets Ike up to run for his life]
Wyatt Earp: So run, you cur... RUN! Tell all the other curs the law's comin'!
[shouts]
Wyatt Earp: You tell 'em I'M coming... and hell's coming with me, you hear?...
[louder]
Wyatt Earp: Hell's coming with me!


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
PanicAttack53
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Member # 34195
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Part of the emotional dynamic in R is fear. Fear of being unable to forge the new. What will it look like? How does it feel? Will it fit?
Who knows?
Either way, and no matter what - you forge ahead. Now that's courage.

jjct,

Thanks. I get this concept and I think it may be my whole problem right now. Like I said, I'm working on overcoming my codependency issues in IC. Problem is that the more I overcome them, the more I know what I need & want. That's really a double edged sword, e.g., embracing change while still pining for the past. I do know that change does create fear, mostly of the unknown as there was a huge comfort level in the past, before the A.

I'm somewhat calmer today and trying to wrap my head around this. I guess the real question I need to answer for myself is... am I willing to accept change and really work at it? Or am I so stuck on the past that losing it is a deal breaker for me. Until I DO answer that, I don't think I'll be able to fully commit to R.

Man this shit is confusing and it really sucks the life out of me sometimes! I can't help but hate WW at times for putting me through this fucking hell!!!!


Me-BH Her-XWW | B/ 60 | D final on 10/1/13 I'm Lovin' life again!
Rest of the story really doesn't matter any more.
ďRealize deeply that the present moment is all you have.Ē ― Eckhart Tolle

Posts: 868 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Midwest
jeppson8
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Member # 36341
Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm done with boundries. I don't give a fuck less about "we're just friends" or any other male friend crap. We tried the boundries thing and my belief is a married couple should not have secrets.

No more seperate credit cards, no more hiding facebook friends, no more lunches with male from work without it being more than two.

I'm done with asking who is that, and he's just a friend or co-worker...I want to know EXACTLY how and why you know this person. I mean, why shouldn't a spouse know about the other's friends and acquaintences?

If the OP sends an email...I get it forwarded. If I say hand me your phone I get the fucking phone.

I didn't set these parameters...she did. If she can live uder these rules then maybe we have a chance. I will gladly recpricate some of that, but only what I want.

I don't want a sex slave, or for her to do my chores or peel me grapes and feed them to me. We're tryin to rebuild but those are the terms...take them or leave them. If she ever resists in the least little bit then I can only assume she has something to hide. Which she HAS proven in the past that she did have something to hide.

If she wants to stay married, and work on rebuilding and reconnecting and my forgivness. These are the rules...end of discussion.

I didn't set the terms of our relationship for the rest of our lives...she did.

I love her with all my heart and i believe she loves me. I am more an more convinced of her sincerity as time goes on and I know she's sorry and her remorse is very very autentic. I believe this...

She has zero expectations from at this point... NOT ONE DAMN one.

Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie until she can either prove it or convince me otherwise.

I am not torturing her on purpose, and could give a shitless if she thinks I am or even if she's feeling tortured. I didn't step out...she did.

Well that's that. I know I went on and on but that's what's going on here... wish me luck.


Me-BH
Her WS,PA
Together 12 yrs, Married for 10
D-Day July 29,2012

Posts: 37 | Registered: Aug 2012
Medic17
♂ Member
Member # 12832
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We gotta rethink this BM thing, makes us sound like a turd......How about PH = Pissed Husbands


Piece of mind is slowly becoming a 4" grouping at 600 yards

Posts: 381 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: NC
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Problem is that the more I overcome them, (fears) the more I know what I need & want.

Something jumped out at me from this statement...do you see it?
I caught it briefly and am posting on a feeling but, just how is that a problem?
You overcome your fear. check.
You know what you want. check.

Ahhh! the thing I caught briefly looks still like fear, like an unnamed entity flying past your shoulder you're afraid to catch, even though you're quick enough! - and put your thumb on and say; Now I got you mofo!


That's really a double edged sword, e.g., embracing change while still pining for the past.

Grieve your past brother))) I grieve with you - take all the time you need! I vented tons of grief on here (mostly in bad poetry)

The back side of the double edged sword is fear of the future, not grief for the past. Grief dulls with time.

Fear? It's sharpened when it's not faced on the grindstone of courage.
Afraid you won't be this or that when you face it?
That you won't love her like you used to?
So be it.
Accept yourself.
Be true to YOUR self.
Then go from there.

medic, my gun-totin buddy, I got no idear how to fix the bm distinction. Since I'm such a smartass, I figured I'd go ahead and embrace it.
Ain't I the shit?


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:31 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jeppson8))) I wish you blessings more than luck. Good on you for putting your foot down!
As long as they're not 'unreasonable' - and don't ever ever EVER trust your ww to define that for you! (You'll be ultimately unhappy and fucked up with a sex slave)
defining your own dam boundaries is a good thing!
stick to em.

Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
VD2012
♂ Member
Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just wanted to say thanks for the responses to my post and the discussion it brought up. It was very insightful and given me much to think about. My head feels overloaded right now but also a bit calm. These posts, some other things I've been dealing with and looking at (just finished reading 'Not "Just Friends"' by Shirley Glass) and having had a few really introspective and good talks with my wife have given me a lot of clarity... I'm going to go have some fun today and leave this stuff alone for a bit. I feel like I'm in a much better place than I have been.

Wanted to address one thing though:


wincing_at_light
(Have you hit the stage yet where your wife is hyper-vigilant about who you might be talking to, who you might be contemplating revenge with, checking your phone, demanding transparency, etc.? That's because she believes she very much has a stake in owning your sexuality. It's hers, or it's shared at the very least. It isn't solely yours like hers was, because if she truly believed that, what you did with your dick when you weren't with her wouldn't bother her, because she wouldn't think it was her business.)

No. She hasn't done anything like that. A few times she's even mentioned that she'd deserve it if I cheated on her and she'd deal with it if I did. She feels very guilty and genuinely seems deeply remorseful and somehow thinks that would make things right. I tell her no. No, that's not what I want and it wouldn't be right.

She also hasn't had any problem with who I have spoken to or what I've done. She wants me to do whatever I feel will make me better and make things right between us.

I initially wondered if there were motives or something to this, but she's been so consistent with her behaviour and what she says day in and day out I know she's being legit. She's also a very piss poor liar (thus why I knew shit was going on from the start - even though I didn't want to believe - and caught her so quickly). It helps to say the least and I'm glad I don't have to deal with that kind of shit.

All that said anyways, a couple nights ago when my wife came back from work we sat down and talked. I finally realized and divulged to her the one thing holding me back in my healing and why I've become so obsessive with things.

I'm terrified. Genuinely scared shitless. I'm afraid.

I honestly have never felt fear before. Because of my upbringing and experiences in life I just haven't. Even a few brushes with death as a kid left me knowing I'll die some day and not to fear it. There hasn't been a single thing that's caused me to feel fear before really for my entire life.

Yet here I am frightened. By my wife of all things. She scares the fucking shit right out of me.

It scares me that she could hurt me so badly. It scares me that she could do it again and by giving her this chance I'm leaving myself open to it again. I fear the life I had planned and was working toward could have completely unraveled. I have been fearing that our entire time together was a sham, I feared she didn't love me and I feared, honestly, being alone.

It sounds so simple and obvious but I haven't even thought of it. I didn't understand what I was feeling and thinking because I've sincerely and honestly never dealt with this emotion before.

Life has always thrown a bunch of shit at me and I never waver and always stand my ground. But this, this has made me buckle and cower.

And I feel better acknowledging this and accepting it. Telling her took a great deal of stress off of me for some reason. I've identified the problem and can now find ways to address it. One step at a time is what I keep telling myself.

For her part, my wife wrote out a fairly lengthy letter to me. She's very sparse and poor with words at times and has trouble expressing herself, so it was surprising but in a good way. She apologized for everything, and was even specific instead of generic "I'm sorry". It was nice to see her identify and address things that I haven't even brought up.

Anyways, I'm just rambling again. Helps a lot to vent. I finally feel a little bit of peace with life. With myself especially. The roiling turbulent seas of my mind and soul are slowly easing up.

Even though I'm not particularly religious, I told myself yesterday that if God does exist, he's thrown almost everything I can think of at me in life. And I'm still here; I will not break. I'll get through this one way or another and keep moving forward.


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
foundoutlater
♂ Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn V itís just amazing how similar it is for me. I learned at a very young age to replace fear with respect through knowledge. For example I do not fear rattlesnakes. I understand them, know what they do and donít do and I respect them. Come across them on a hike and I can check them out and enjoy it. I used to participate in a dangerous activity. Nearly killed myself and broke my back. Two weeks later I was out watching my friends for the weekend and the weekend after the back brace was off I was back at it. I stopped when I had kids.

With relationships I think I always had a little fear. Probably because itís just not possible to understand another human being completely, let alone one of the opposite sex. My wife cheated multiple times with the same ap in what I call two affairs (long story Ė itís in my profile). The first time all of my reactions were fear based. The second DDay (last year) it started out the same. Iíve done a ton of reading and work on this. I think this part of it has been the best thing that ever happened to me. Her affair getís no credit for it though. Had I had parents and peers that had a healthy approach to relationships I would have the same results without the pain.

What am I afraid of? There was (and still is) so many things, afraid to look like a fool, to be a fool, to be hurt again, that my outlook on life and relationships was so wrong, to be divorced, to be alone and the biggest fear Ė that she would do it again. This is the short list. Some of the best advice I received was on confronting my fears. In order to find some stability I had to see that in either R or D I was going to be OK. There was the potential for a happy life either way. I did not need to be M, I did not need my W for me to be happy, and most important for me was that my kids would be best served when I was healthy and happy. This is where I am know and I feel free. Iím free to leave, and I am here because I want to be.

I hope you can enjoy your day off. Iíve seen here that many if not most BS obsess on the A. That is where I was and return often. The very best thing that came out of IC for me was finding the way to give myself permission to take a vacation from it all. When this shit occupies your mind 24/7 it is exhausting. The mind can only take so much. I believe not finding a way to take a break from it nearly drove me insane Ė clinically. Because I am so obsessive that first break was tough. I had to come up with a way to combat the thoughts, because I could not stop them from coming. But I found my way to send them away. Stupid thing, but I visualized the thoughts, then mentally swung a baseball bat and hit the thought out into left field and left it there. This worked on the mind movies as well.

Man have I been wordy lately. This weekend my wife is gone with one of the kidlets. Since Dday the two of us talk a lot more than we used to. I guess Iíve gotten used to it and your guys are my outlet. I am sure enjoying the company down here. Thanks all and cheers.

WAL Ė funny you are thanking me. Iím so grateful for the way you share what you have been through. I hope you have an appreciation for how many people you have helped. Iím sure you have had a few people post and PM you that. For everyone who does there are so many more who just lurk. Thank you.

Iím with V today Ė Iím taking a break. Thanks for putting it out there.

Hope eveyone is having the day they want today.

Edit to finish - pulled the trigger to fast.

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 10:45 AM, August 5th (Sunday)]


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
jeppson8
New Member
Member # 36341
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'll say one thing for sure...the sex (love making?) has been awesome since d-day. Don't know how to feel about that exactly, but damn..


Me-BH
Her WS,PA
Together 12 yrs, Married for 10
D-Day July 29,2012

Posts: 37 | Registered: Aug 2012
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'll say one thing for sure...the sex (love making?) has been awesome since d-day. Don't know how to feel about that exactly, but damn..

just enjoy it, man.
with sooo much shit we have to eat and sort through every.single.day...the reprieve we get while going all "silverback" on our women is well deserved and always welcome!
try not to question it...just enjoy!... often!

personally, after finding out that my FWW was "open" enough, sexually, to go and have an affair(she always seemed so tame before)...i took that as an opportunity for US to open up and experiment.

We've had some awesome sex since, tried lots of new stuff.

I always felt like i had to "behave" with her, before...but after finding out SHE is a freak too!...Its on like donkey kong!

enjoy it man.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
jeppson8
New Member
Member # 36341
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just enjoy it, man.
with sooo much shit we have to eat and sort through every.single.day...the reprieve we get while going all "silverback" on our women is well deserved and always welcome!
try not to question it...just enjoy!... often!

personally, after finding out that my FWW was "open" enough, sexually, to go and have an affair(she always seemed so tame before)...i took that as an opportunity for US to open up and experiment.

We've had some awesome sex since, tried lots of new stuff.

I always felt like i had to "behave" with her, before...but after finding out SHE is a freak too!...Its on like donkey kong!

Thanks man... sounds like exactly what we're going through... and I will enjoy it!!


Me-BH
Her WS,PA
Together 12 yrs, Married for 10
D-Day July 29,2012

Posts: 37 | Registered: Aug 2012
OnceInALifetime
♂ Member
Member # 26023
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Add me to the handful of guys who are a historical curiosity. My XW was my only (turns out I was one of dozens for her). I think my antiquated values have actually hurt me in the dating world. I'm fairly reserved when it comes to being flirty and shit, so women get bored and move on. That's the thing with online dating; it's hyper-drive to romance, forget getting to know each other. That comes after sex, apparently.

Sometimes I wonder if I should recondition my beliefs, for the sake of dating in the modern world.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 6:50 PM, August 5th (Sunday)]


BH, now divorced

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