Take all the energy you've put on fixing her to fixing yourself
Sage words. Really. Take care of yourself. I don't know if anyone has given you the drink water and work out bit but there you go. Take your health, physical and mental, very seriously right now. It does not take much to get it out of control.
Listen, I know you are pissed. I was so mad I wanted to do bodily hard to just about everyone. Your WW is not giving you what you need or want right now that is clear. But by your own admission she is working hard and from an outward appearance (your description) a women who is not well. You can't fix her, but you can support her and be empathetic. I have never seen anyone love a WW our of there messed up self. That said, empathy is very human and listening is free. In your situation, if she is really doing the outpatient thing and you don't think she is running around screwing people I would advise working on yourself, making yourself as strong as possible and giving her what you can from a listening angle.
Re-read StillGoing's post. I have no idea what type of women your W is, but some are broken and then do the work. The best direction in general is, get your shit straight (IC if you need it or whatever) and give it some time to see if she figures out her shit. To be honest, from what you describe she sounds like she is in her own private little hell right now. I am fairly certain my W is also. None of that is right but is where i am. I am choosing to support her and continue to work with her because I have little kids and I may a promise to her as well.
Take care of yourself and your kids. Take some time to figure out what you want and which direction your W goes.
This is brutal shit. There is no doubt about it. I wish I never would have known any of the shit I know, but I can tell you at this point after learning from all these crappy experiences I feel as if I can take on whatever gets thrown my way. You will get there too.
Do it. With your IC.
As I desconstructed the marriage with my IC I realized...
Holy Shit. It was not normal. She is not normal. She was like this waaay before the A and I did not pay attention. Not paying attention caused ME lots of damage. I needed to fix me. She really needs to fix herself (not for R- but for my littles). She is already starting to damage them. She is really damaged as a person.
The awareness from the lifting of the past veil has led to developing strategies for me to help my littles deal with her. I can already see the positive changes in them. I hope to make them immune to her.
So-- if she is insisting it was the marriage and the marriage issues need to be addressed... She is probably right that the marriage was messed up-- chances are it is because you tried to accept (or reject) her crazy for the sake of peace. It may just show her the reality of her actions. (or probably not, eh?)
I was doing great working on myself 2 weeks ago and then I slipped and I've been down again for awhile. I'm on my way back up so hopefully I can hang on this time.
I want to believe that my WW is truly doing her very best and is sincere in her effort. I know she was a great person way back when. At this point its been years since she was the wife, mother, and friend that she once was. I've given her a break for so long because of her depression. Now it feels like that 'slack' I gave her just allowed herself to detach and feel like she needed to start an A.
As quedagh says, I definitely "tried to accept (or reject) her crazy for the sake of peace". I too can see the damage her mental issues did to everyone in the house. I saw it at the time and called her out on it, but I guess not loud enough because it did no good. WW knows she's sucked for a long time, but the real question is whether she can drastically improve or not. It's going to take months for me to make a judgement on that. Then once I get there, I still don't know if I can get over the A.
Wert mentioned being supportive and empathetic. I'm able to listen and give some support to her therapy process. Where I'm killing her is in my complete loss of affection for her. I'll let her grab my arm when we are walking or put her hand on my shoulder, but that's about it. I don't crave it by any means but I've stopped cringing, so that must be improvement. I'm not trying to be mean or push her away, I just don't care for her in general right now. I'm guessing I may have to ease up on this stuff at some point or she'll just give up. I just keep thinking that more time will change how I feel but I'm not there yet for sure.
I'm not trying to be mean or push her away, I just don't care for her in general right now. I'm guessing I may have to ease up on this stuff at some point or she'll just give up. I just keep thinking that more time will change how I feel but I'm not there yet for sure.
I know the feeling. Many times I did not want to be in the same state as my W let alone touch her. It's tough, because I saw it as a risk. Not showing affection to my W who was already down. Truth you just can win them back, they have to come back on there own.
take care mam...
As quedagh says, I definitely "tried to accept (or reject) her crazy for the sake of peace".
I can really relate to this dynamic. This is exactly what my marriage looked like before the A. WW screaming and bitching about me working late, how I never helped her with the kids, never helping her around the house, money, blah, blah. I would try and talk to her and she would pull out her blame canon and it was always my fault. So I tried to do a little more of what she wanted, then it was ok for a while. But it was never enough. Her whole life was my fault.
Now, fuck that. She needs to grow up. If she starts bitching, we are talking, or arguing(something we never did before the A). Major lack of communication. We have talked more in the last year than we ever have in the last five years.
Looking back at it, my marriage was fucked. She was so messed up and the way I dealt with it was not healthy. Not taking resposibility for the A. I don't own her choices, just mine. I believe the old marriage is dead, no more crazy for the sake of peace.
The whole cheating thing does not necessarily tie into her medical issues unless she has been definitively diagnosed with, 'multiple personalities'.
It's up to you to decide how much weight you give that knowledge.
To sum up something WAL said , BP disorder may push someone over the edge into starting an affair, but mania only lasts so long, anything after that point is just plain meanness. And to interject my own opinion into that thought, their behavior DURING a manic episode can also be purposefully vindictive.
All you can really do is look at her actions and how they effect your well being, because even if she has lost complete control of herself, YOU still have to deal with the real world fallout if you choose to remain in the blast zone.
Let the professionals deal with the disorder, you just pay attention to her behavior and make sure you are safe.
Have you ever seen her have a manic episode?
What was it that brought about the diagnosis?
Well, you're pissed off with good reason. Hell, I have a hard time hugging my kids when they've been beating each other and throw lego houses at me after I spent 2 hours helping with homework while I get their dinner in the oven. Your wife just lost her shit and fucked some other dude, it's going to take time to come down from that anger enough to want to engage.
Not saying don't try, just saying it's a normal process. Worrying about pushing her away because you're trying to deal is not going to be helpful. You do the best you can with what you got and don't break yourself trying to do more, cuz then you aren't good to anybody.
SLH said it best there, let the docs deal with the medical while you keep an eye on you and your kids well being. Integrate more as she works on things to make it safe to do so.
First off, thank you for all of the advice and information.
WW is without a shadow of a doubt a depressed person. The mania part of the equation has just been diagnosed, but I can now see that its been going on for quite a few years. All of the incredibly selfish impulsive things she's done or wanted to do until I stopped it now make sense. Two little businesses she started, just to crash and then give up on. One fairly significant business that I spent countless hours trying to set up and taking small business classes and setting up the tax stuff and all that...just to have her crash and completely abandon all of it. NEEDING to have a new house and making plans to fix up our house to sell, only to crash soon after we start the work. This has been a recurring thing for 3 years. NEEDS a new house and then just out of the blue thinks its best to stay where we are. It truly is like dealing with a child on a lot of this stuff, but I honestly don't think she has control over it. It is the same with jobs, and commitments, and $.
I always recognized (and could predict ahead of time) the crash, but what I didn't put together was the mania that gave her the sudden surge of energy to impulsively come up with and 'need' these things.
Since D-Day we've had several bouts of mania, typically triggered by our discussions of the A. Of course there were the three suicide episodes where WW was out the door in search of a train or semi to drive into. She was flat out batshit crazy during those times. She was also set off when I attended a BAN support group meeting and just started talking gibberish when I returned and kept repeating the same things over and over. She was basically trashing the group, trashing SI, trashing books I've read, etc. Because of how childish she was acting, she might as well have been saying "I don't like these things because they are saying we should talk about and be honest about the A..and I have things I want to hide." No matter how many times I told her she was screwing up and hurting instead of helping and that she just needed to stop she flat out couldn't. Another time (and the last real A discussion we've had) I blew up at some really dumb/insensitive things she was saying and I screamed 'You fucked another man!!!', and it was like I flipped a switch on her. She went full on crazy, but this time it was this completely cold, evil type that I've never seen before and never want to see again. The things she said and the way she was saying them was just pure evil. She decided then that her mental stability couldn't handle this any longer and we needed to D. That lasted a couple of hours and once it ended I asked her about a couple of things she had said and she flat out doesn't remember and can't believe she said them.
I keep saying she was 'crazy' and I don't mean it in an insulting way to anyone with mental issues, I just don't know how else to describe it. What's nuts is that 95% of the time she is working hard on the house and the kids and on me and doing what she can to love me, even though I'm not accepting it right now. Then these 'episodes' happen and it is the complete opposite. I can't say she's truly remorseful 95% of the time because the truth isn't there, but everything else is.
What was it that brought about the diagnosis?
She's been doing pretty well during those 10 days but I've noticed that she isn't getting as much done as she did before. Most likely because the antidepressants she was on before were pushing her a little too 'high' and now she is more leveled out. We haven't seen any manic episodes, but we haven't been talking about the A either, so I don't know if that means anything.
All of this is why I feel like I just need to give this some time and let her actions tell me what I need to know. I think I believe that she truly loves me and can't believe she's done what she's done. The difficult parts are those episodes where she's giving up and saying we may as well D because I'll never get over it and she can't handle this lasting for months or years. If that's the case and that's the choice she makes, then that's what we'll go with. I told her day one that if she needed a decision then, we would D...otherwise she just needed to wait for me to decide what I wanted. I've had to tell her that many times since then, but I've been consistent and that's still how I feel.
All of that set aside, I'm still not so sure that the A itself wasn't a deal breaker for me. WWs mental issues suck but I kinda committed to 'for better or worse'. The A is a completely different animal. I feel like I'm just not built to bounce back from something like this. I know I can get back on my feet and be better than I've been in a lot of years, but I don't have that same confidence about fixing the relationship.
WWs mental issues suck but I kinda committed to 'for better or worse'. The A is a completely different animal.
Well said and I understand. Those are your calls. You have to life your life.
That said, better or for worse can mean a lot of things and I think it depends if you believe (the word of the day for my atheist self) your W wants to and can be/get better. I would say nobody is in your exact situation, but many of are us are in that limbo question land. It all pretty new to you, take a little time before making big decisions...just my two cents.
take care my man...take care...
Given how often BH's get the shaft in child custody disputes, how common is it that BH's reconcile more to keep their kids?
And given how important it is for kids (especially daughters) to grow up in a home with a good father, is this such a bad reason to R?
No way in Hell I'm leaving the kids all to her, and paying for it all still.
Lots of well meaning people may tell you otherwise(unlikely in this particular thread), but lots of well meaning people arent in your situation and know very little about it.
It would be impossible for me to count the weeks that i was solely committed to my son.
some days it was him,
some days it was my W,
some days it was my M,
and some days i was simply committed to my commitments ...
they all worked in the end.
I don't always think this way but sometimes the thought strays into the back of my brain: did I decide to R because I don't want to be a part-time dad? because my love and loyalty and devotion to my kids outweighs whatever feelings I may have had for FWW?
is this such a bad reason to R?
For example, I am a recovering alcoholic, I quit drinking the day after Dday. Now Dday certainly acted as a precipitating factor in that decision. Call it the prime mover... the finger pushing over the first dominoe in the line. But did I quit drinking because my wife had an affair with my friend? Of course not. That figurative line of dominoes had been a long time in the construction, I knew the design and shape of them intimately well. It was never a question of whether they were going to go down. Just a question of when and what was going to be the tipping point.
In the days, weeks, months and years since Dday I have discovered and utilized a lot of motivations for maintaining my sobriety. Some of them noble, some not so much much. Most days I stay sober for ME. Because I want and deserve that for ME. That's the best reason and in the end the only one that really works or matters.
Still though...I have my days. And on the toughest days sometimes I could give a shit about me. Days like that I stay sober for my daughters. Because I love them more than I could ever love myself and they deserve the best father that I can be for them. I want to give them that father. Some times I stay sober for my wife. Because I love her. And because, despite all of the shit she put me through 2 years ago, she deserves the best husband I
can be for her. I want to be that husband for her. Other times I stay sober just to fucking spite my wife. I mean, fuck her anyway! No way am I ever gonna cede the moral fucking high ground to her cheating ass ever again! Plus she never believed that I could or would get sober, so fuck her! I'll show her just how wrong she was about me. Shit, sometimes I stay sober just so I can go on believing that I am a better man than that douchenozzle piece of shit OM who I thought was my friend.
See? Complicated, complex, multifaceted reasons, justifications and motivations for one simple choice. Some of them are all beautiful and noble and full of love. Some are kind of ugly and angry and fucked up. But whatever else they may be they are never the less all true and real. And they all still work as a means to an overall positive outcome: me staying sober.
I try to look at much of R the same way. Would I still be in my marriage were it not for my daughters? I doubt it. There simply wasn't enough of a marriage left amidst all of the devistation of my wife's A to make Reconcilliation worth the cost and personal sacrifice that is required. But life isn't all made up of black and white choices. Life's made up of complicated choices weighed against one another. My love for my girls, my need to be a part of their daily lives... The weight of that... That was more than enough to tip the scales in the favor of Reconcilliation.
So I guess on one level you could say I stayed for my children. That is certainly the biggest most compelling factor. Still, I don't fool myself into believing that that is reason enough. There are lots of others. Like the fact that in spite of everything I still love my wife, I love what we once had together and I believe we are beginning to have together again. Or he fact that I like being married, I like being a family man, I like how it feels, how it looks on me. It suits me.
And frankly I just don't much feel like starting over again, building another life probably another relationship. Both of which, sad as it is to say, have fuck all guarantee of turning out any better or happier than any of the shit that I am dealing with right here, KWIM?
So there you go. Lots of complicated, complex, multifaceted reasons, justifications and motivations for one simple choice. Some of them all beautiful and noble and full of love. Some kind of ugly or lazy or fucked up. But all of them none the less true and real and all of them working to bring about an overall positive outcome: the preservation of my family.
I am guessing that you probably have a fewore reasons for trying to make it work than just the children involved. Those reasons just don't stand out as much some days because all of the other shit involved with R just weighs you down and gets in the way. I know that happens to me alot. Days like that hanging on to the idea of keeping your kids in your life is easiest to see because it's hands down the biggest, brightest, and best reason for doing what you are doing. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with that. Don't ever feel like there is.
Whatever it takes man. Whatever reason or motivation you need to hold onto today to bring about the best outcome for you, your family and most of all your kids? It is more than reason enough.
Stay strong man.
Other times I stay sober just to fucking spite my wife. I mean, fuck her anyway! No way am I ever gonna cede the moral fucking high ground to her cheating ass ever again! Plus she never believed that I could or would get sober, so fuck her! I'll show her just how wrong she was about me. Shit, sometimes I stay sober just so I can go on believing that I am a better man than that douchenozzle piece of shit OM who I thought was my friend.
Amen brother! Just hit my 90 days. Feeling much better too.
If you WERE given the option of staying with your still cheating wife, would you?
Are you not "lucky" to have that out of your life now?
Im not trying to come down on you or even disagree with you.
Im saying that we all play the cards dealt to us.
Those of us who chose to R, have yet to see the river card.
Those of us who chose to R, have yet to see the river card.
For the permanently betrayed on this thread, read and take those lessons to heart. Use our disappointments,pain and realities as a constant reminder of what it could be like for yourself and pray to God that you have, indeed, made the correct decision.
I have never seen anyone put it this way. As a permanently betrayed, I wonder sometimes if my STBXW ever really loved me. It appears she moved me out long before she physically attacked me and left. The reality that has become my life is sinking in. But I am in IC, and my self-esteem is coming back. Its getting better and most days now are not a crush of emotion. Well, except the angry days.
I wanted R, because I still loved my wife. I would't stay just for the kids. A loveless marriage sounds like misery and the kids would always see this.
Accepting all this slowly and seeing a future again is all helping me get through this train wreck. Loosing 70 lbs feels good too