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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 8
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, November 6th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

& Des...lol @ bacon. You don't know how
lol

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, November 6th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TOP OF THE WORLD!
.
.
.

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Mypoorboys
♂ Member
Member # 33169
Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, November 7th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cannon,
jjct and WAL are absolutely correct. I have a brother and sister in law with substance abuse issues with 3 yr old triplets from, 'in vitro birth'1 WTF was the clinic thinking about to allow these two disfunctionals to have kids, but they did and they both should be in rehabs, but they are not and I foresee a horrible scenario around the corner, so don't let that happen to you! Get her committed ASAP. Don't let her come home, then divorce her on grounds of her dysfunctional behavior. If anything, just to protect your kids and yourself from the inevitable future events.
If you want to remarry her after she is COMPLETELY better, then you have that option.
I'm telling you from experience with my Brother, that you can't allow her back into the family. As they said, immmediately seek the authority to have her admitted.
God Bless,
MPBs

Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New Brunswick, New Jersey
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK guys I need some perspective/help. I’ve been digging in IC and I am finally starting to face some things that I’ve been trying hard to avoid. I think for the most part if you look at me from the outside, I’m a ‘man’s man.’ I hunt, fish, go on back packing trips, drink beer, play rugby, build stuff, drive a truck, etc., but due to a lot of FOO issues, deep down I don’t think I’m “man enough” and I’ve started to question how much of this is just me trying to prove to myself (and others) how much of a man I am.

I know that this is probably a common feeling after a W steps out of the M, but for me this goes much farther back and much deeper. I can tell myself that I’m ‘doing the right thing,’ and ‘being the man I want to be’ and I’m ‘more of a man than OM ever was’ and do all sorts of ‘manly stuff,’ but ultimately I can’t seem to convince myself and really believe it. Has anyone else dealt with this? And if so how did you change your perspective?


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
Mypoorboys
♂ Member
Member # 33169
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey nomoreplease,
Stop looking down at yourself man and start, 'looking down at her'!!!!!!
MPBs

Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New Brunswick, New Jersey
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nomoreplease, do you know what it is you think makes a "real" man?

It sounds like a competitive thing. Like if you aren't number one, you aren't anything. That and you're worried people will look on you with contempt for whatever you perceive as failures so you bulwark that with a lot of bromancy.

By bromancy I mean man-stuff. Old school blood magic drink the deer and wear a live, angry wolf as a cloak kind of shit, not a buddy-buddy comedy act.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

MPB – If only it were that simple, but really it has very little to do with my WW other than her A (and other things she does) bringing it into the open. I was like this long before I met her.

StillGoing – What I think makes me a ‘real man’ is doing the right thing, and being the man I want to be. It is living with morals and values and being responsible and taking care of my family and … The thing is no matter how much of this stuff I do, deep down I don’t feel like I am ‘man’ enough. It seems like it is much deeper than what I think. There is probably a big competitive part to it, because I was basically raised that unless you were the best you were nothing. And, I do believe there is compensation with the ‘bromancy’ stuff. The thing is it goes so far back that I’m not even sure how much of it is compensation and how much of it is really me.

By bromancy I mean man-stuff. Old school blood magic drink the deer and wear a live, angry wolf as a cloak kind of shit, not a buddy-buddy comedy act.
LOL, Love it.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
bluecali
♂ Member
Member # 35135
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, November 8th (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy shit, Canon. I have no words of wisdom for you, but you have my sympathy and support.


Me-BH
DDAY 12/1/11
Separated and uncertain

Posts: 398 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Elm Street
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, November 9th (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think for the most part if you look at me from the outside...

Wow gee - another amazing giving guy, capable of looking at himself from the outside?
(in chess, it's like trying to find your opponent's next best move)...introspective you are?
Do you play chess?

Forget that...I wonder, how do you see you? When does fuck all how others see you begin?

Turning in for answers - wait for it! - takes patience.
Sometimes, well most times, patience is an ever-lovinin-mother-fukin-bitch!

It's worth it in the end.
I got me a new tagline fellas!


I thought menz just like pictures and shit. Instead of all these introspective thingamajibs.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, November 11th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct – I don’t disagree with anything you said. The problem becomes this:
I wonder, how do you see you? When does fuck all how others see you begin?
I see myself as not ‘man enough.’ I’ve been given the message long enough and in enough ways that I’ve internalized it. So, when I do all these things it’s to prove to myself that I’m a ‘man’ and ultimately it never works.

I seem to be stuck in IC, because I can think and reason and ‘know’ that I’m ‘man enough’ but no matter what I do (or think or tell myself) I can’t seem to truly believe it.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:48 PM, November 11th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fine, I get ya - but still, even though you've internalized it, it's still based on some external definition. So even though you've bought into it, through arbitrary, random, hurtful, repetitive, or cruel means - it's still external.

Look, we're all imprinted with shitty things. Wrong things. Untrue things. Has not every one of us battled and conquered at least some of these things? Have we not grown? Have we not grown up?

Won't we continue to grow? I'm a lot wiser now than I was at 40, 20 years ago. 20 years from now? Who knows?
(I'll beat your ass with my cane if you make a fuckin joke here)
O hell, I'll do better - I'll post a recent pic lol!

Thing is, I, you, we - so often act and live our lives in response to the false external message we've received & believed. Who are you? really? (Answer lies within, and s'cuse me! above)

I believe the answer is far greater than we've been conditioned to believe.

Shrug that fucking false cloak off. It's a life's work, sure, but it's worthy, and rewarding. Hell. You can even have fun.


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 10:04 PM, November 11th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

so often act and live our lives in response to the false external message we've received & believed.

This is so true.

I live in small town middle America. I married both of the women I had sex with. The extent of my automobile knowledge is that I can change my own oil. I own one gun, and I'm not sure I actually know how to clean it properly.

I can't fix your tractor, re-wire your house, build a shed from raw materials, cut down a large tree. Hells, I was thrilled as fuck when I replaced the straight pipe coming out of my bathroom sink without my BIL's help (he's an actual plumber.)

Fact of the matter is that I have no desire to learn any of those things. I'd much rather pay someone to do them for me.

You know what I can do? I can fix your computer. I can hack your bank account. I can write a technically accurate sonnet. I can explain the various mythologies of Valentinus and why that led to Gnosticism being condemned as a heresy, and then explain the filioque controversy that caused the split between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox branches of Christianity.

Do I sometimes feel inadequate because I don't know things that "men should know"? Sure. But I'd rather spend my time focusing on the things that are interesting to me to know than the things someone else tells me I ought to know to "be a man".

It's about being comfortable in your own skin and rejecting the scripts that don't interest you. I can guarantee you that there are chicks aplenty who will respond to whatever masculine definition you choose.

(Most of us don't get to be George Clooney and pretend to be enough different sorts of men that we attract the notice of 75% of the female population. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you met George Clooney in real life, the part of him that doesn't have professional scriptwriters and handlers writing characters for him wouldn't be much different than you or me.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, November 11th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

[This message edited by jjct at 10:12 PM, November 11th (Sunday)]


Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, November 11th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That was yesterday.
Life is good.
This tongue's for you!

Posts: 6012 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct & WAL,
Thank you both for your responses. I’ve been in IC, MC, reading books, and ‘looking at myself’ for 2 years straight now. I can tell you exactly where this view comes from. I can point out countless examples of how it was reinforced throughout my life. I’m sick of looking at this shit, but I can’t seem to change the belief.
Look, we're all imprinted with shitty things. Wrong things. Untrue things. Has not every one of us battled and conquered at least some of these things? Have we not grown? Have we not grown up?
Won't we continue to grow? I'm a lot wiser now than I was at 40, 20 years ago. 20 years from now? Who knows?
I’ve grown a lot, worked through a lot, and I’m a different person than I was 2 years ago, but I seem to be stuck on this, and I simply can’t be happy as long as I see myself this way.
It's about being comfortable in your own skin and rejecting the scripts that don't interest you.
I don’t know how to do this. Deep inside I really don’t like myself, and again I can tell you exactly where this comes from but seem to be incapable of changing it.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:27 PM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don’t know how to do this. Deep inside I really don’t like myself, and again I can tell you exactly where this comes from but seem to be incapable of changing it.

Are you sure you know where it is? The vast majority of my job involves identifying an issue. Once I have identified it then if I can't fix it myself, I bring it to the specialist who can. It gets fixed.

Sometimes I get people who think they have the issue identified. A new version of a remote software app wont register WINS unless you do it manually. It's always this version. Repeatable. Can do it right now for you.

So they get stuck working that. For weeks. They get angry and impatient with me because I point out that it's not just the version, it's also these applications are all new installs. All these machines have the same security software. The security software hasn't been updated, no changes. This remote app works fine everywhere else. If you disable the security software then the app works. Must be the app version.

People are more complicated than MS Windows but probably not that much. Windows libraries are byzantine. The slightest change can send everything into a weird state. Tracking that down is hard enough when you go into it wide open but when you are zeroed in, thinking you know where the problem is but battering away unable to fix it, then it's time to step back. You may never realize there was a weird undocumented update to dxd3d39 that changed a routine call which subtly affects the IP stack, changing the way the firewall behaves, so when you install remote access software it doesn't work the way it should. You can set up alternative controls, though. Different versions of the same software. The latest version on a clean install with nothing else. Narrow it down and make sure you've got it right.

If after all that you're sure it's the app and not some unidentifiable update? The dev looks at it. With all the exhaustive narrowing down. The dev knows what script or function or line of code is doing what where during that time, and if not, opens it up and pokes through. Finds the problem. Then it's a matter of removing an extra carrot, and suddenly everything's working fine. Until it breaks again.

Probably a stupid analogy.

If you know what the problem is though, but don't know how to fix it, then it's probably time to talk to someone who might.

Me, I dunno what the fuck my damage is. Probably too much to fix right anyway.

Sorry. Rambling.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you sure you know where it is? The vast majority of my job involves identifying an issue.
I guess it’s entirely possible that I’m focusing on the wrong thing, and maybe it’s time to step back and reexamine. It all just fits together so nicely that it is hard to imagine it could be anything else.
If you know what the problem is though, but don't know how to fix it, then it's probably time to talk to someone who might.
That is exactly why I posted the question. I wasn’t making progress in IC, so I thought I would see if anyone on here had worked through anything similar.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess that was kind of useless, sorry. How hasn't your IC helped you? Mine basically sat there and let me talk so I quit going.


I'm gonna stop talking now. I'll just end up talking about the tragic figure of omega supreme as someone we can all relate to or something.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7107 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
HoldingTogether
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Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, November 12th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nomoreplease,
I can think and reason and ‘know’ that I’m ‘man enough’ but no matter what I do (or think or tell myself) I can’t seem to truly believe it.

So what now then? What do we do with that? I doubt that there is anything any of us here are going to be able to write; any magical combination of words or phrases that are going to make you believe it. Not deep down believe it, not 100% believe it. Not, as you said, truly believe it.

So what now then? Does that just leave you with this?
I don’t know how to do this. Deep inside I really don’t like myself, and again I can tell you exactly where this comes from but seem to be incapable of changing it.

Cause that just sucks. Frankly it depresses the fuck out of me.

How's about this instead: How's about, instead of constantly fighting against all of your insecurities, struggling to eliminate all of your doubts... Instead of constantly freestyle wrestling your demons... How's about you try giving yourself a fucking break for a change. Cutting yourself a little slack. Giving yourself a little leeway and wiggle room to be a little less than the perfect shining example of masculinity.
How's about instead of hating yourself because of your self perceived failings and weaknesses you just try to like yourself despite all of them.

It's a funny thing about being men, I think, that our insecurities and doubts about our masculinity seem to work so well at reenforcing and validating themselves. It's a fucking viscous cycle isn't it? We doubt our manliness whilst all the while believing that a real man is, by his very nature, defined by his security, confidence and self assuredness. And so, the very existence of our doubts and insecurities become all of the evidence we need to convince ourselves that we simply don't measure up in the manliness department.

What a fucked up crock of shit it all is. And I'm stewin in that crock right along with probably just about every other male on the planet.

But, see, that's what's starting to make me kind of ok with it all. And by extension, kind of ok with me. It's realizing that I'm not the only one with these doubts and insecurities. Lots of men have them, most men have them. I'd venture to guess that all men have them to some extent. I think the real question is more about how much we let these doubts and insecurities rule our lives. How much time we spend beating ourselves up over them, fighting against them, giving them more importance and significance than they really deserve.

Hell, I spent most of my thirties wondering when I was going to start to feel like a grown up, when I was gonna start to feel like I actually had shit figured out. When I would finally feel 100% confident and self assured. In short, when I would feel 100% like a man.
One of the things I have figured out from all of the bullshit I have had to deal with over the last couple years is that that day is probably not fucking coming. I will always have some doubts, I will always have some insecurities, I will never be 100% sure of my manliness. And I am learning to be ok with that. Stopping all of the fighting against that, refusing to participate in that battle in my head? It's been helping to keep me mostly happy and mostly happy is a hell of a lot better than I have been for quite a few years. I'll take that.

Plus, you know what? In talking with men I really respect and in reading here I am coming to see that I am in pretty good company. All men have doubts and insecurities, some just try fight them and deny them and hide them and cover them up with all kinds of macho bullshit. Others acknowledge them, admit them to themselves and others, learn to live with them and learn to like themselves warts and all. I know which group I am looking to be in, how's about you? Hell you've already acknowledged this stuff and admitted it to yourself and everyone here. Now you just gotta figure out how to live with it and like yourself in the process.
Simple right? Yah right. Still a work in progress for me; probably gonna be a lifetime project. But hey, we seek progress not perfection, right?

Hang in there, try to relax, and for fucks sake give yourself a break once in a while. You certainly fucking deserve it. We all do.

HT



Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 338 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
Mypoorboys
♂ Member
Member # 33169
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, November 13th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jjct,
Why don't you give those ladies the, 'tongue', instead of us man! lol. You still killing me.
Have you closed the deal with any of those pictured?
I've been finding a lot of looneys on these dating sites.
Starting to think that happenstance will be my road to jumping, 'back in the saddle again'!
Other than that, my world is becoming more organized. My boys enjoy being with me in the new house. Of course, I bought them new boy toys and we have a great time together.
Ex still hounds me, but her day will come and no, I personally have never doubted my manliness. Guess I'm lucky, but I do work hard at it; gym, martial arts and my personality is that of a, 'builder', that helps.
Best to all my co-survivors on this board.
MPBs

Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New Brunswick, New Jersey
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