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User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, July 29th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JM-

I thought about you when I posted up in Wayward. I thought my A sounded similar & your WN's, although not similar, was more extensive as was my WH/BH's A's.

My tack is that the A'a are separate. It does not help to throw stuff in each other's faces & "compare" or "keep score"-I don't have the desire to even do that.

My hurt, pain, & trauma due to WH/BH's A's are my own & I don't want to co-mingle that with anything I've done.

I came to the realization in 2009 that WH/BH wasn't responsible for my happiness & I didn't want to blame him or be resentful towards him. That is not to say that I was "happy" with him or my M at the time. On the contrary, I was very unhappy. I decided to work on myself, though & keep trying to reach out to him. Nothing seemed to work (because he was having A's for the past 5-6 years).

Now, no matter what the outcome, I will atone, apologize, and take responsibility for my A & any other places that I failed in my M. That is for ME, but also to help heal anything for WH/BH.

Because I think it is the right thing to do, regardless of what WH/BH does.

[This message edited by beachbunny at 7:16 PM, July 29th (Sunday)]


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:59 AM, August 1st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm...

I had a realization once while I was reading one of your threads, JM. I realized that sometimes madhatters can't reconcile, not because of one of the A's, but because of one madhatter's continued wayward mentality.

I agree it's not good to compare the A's. I think it's great that you take responsibility for your choices and actions, since they're the only ones we can control anyway. And I appreciate that you don't want to blame everything on him.

I would like you to consider this though. Your requisites for R were that he was faithful, transparent, more time with Jenna, a timeline with all answered questions, and other (imo) healthy things.

His requisite for R, to my understanding, was for you to accept his two "revenge" affairs. Just swallow them.

Rather than compare the A's, compare the attitudes. It's okay to compare the attitudes, because then you can realize whether R is really possible. As a couple, you need to be on the same page.

R wasn't possible because you two weren't on the same page. You wanted the two of you to both take responsibility for your A's; he wanted you to take responsibility for your A's while unconditionally accepting his. R wasn't possible, and that's not your fault, because you can't change your husband's mind. Only he could do that.

Perhaps it seems I am glossing over his status as a BH? I don't mean to. His pain is real. Had you two been able to R, then he would have needed you to help him heal from your EA and help him process the pain. But he's not at that point yet, because he's not owning his stuff yet. Having the pain of the BS doesn't excuse more cheating - as a MH, he must own his own actions and attitudes first.

Speaking of being on the same page...

I am getting this strong sense that my H and I are on the same page with regard to the value of fidelity. I feel like we both value it now, and I feel like I am beginning to let go and stop trying to control my H or his boundaries. And as a result, I'm feeling calmer inside and able to focus more on my own actions and where I still need to get better (it's a dance) so I can be a better spouse.

A somewhat hilarious thing happened. Background: my grandparents have serious issues (along the lines of abuse, murder, and attempted murder). My grandfather is particularly violent, and we learned some disturbing things this week while we were up visiting my very frail great-grandmother before her surgery. Unfortunately, we had to see my grandparents - it left all of us somewhat on edge.

But on to the hilarious part... My grandmother comes in, gives me a tentative hug, and then says to my husband, "Too bad you're a happily married man now, else I would be doing the cougar thing." Now, a month ago, I'd been feeling jealous and angry and scared. This time, my thoughts (in order) were: (1) "What would my gun-toting grandfather do if he heard his precious wife saying that?", (2) "Wasn't my grandmother a BS before? You'd think she'd know better." (3) "Hah! My husband would never go for her..." So I walked out of the room without saying anything, and my husband did not disappoint. He said, "Ehh, cougars don't last very long. They're old, they die soon..." And followed me out. I almost winced, but inside I was dying of laughter! He made me so proud!

Earlier tonight, we were talking to my godmother about that exchange, and my husband said, "I wouldn't say that to another girl!"

Instead of pointing out that he did used to say similar things, I sat and enjoyed the sudden happiness I felt that he would reassure me that way, without even meaning to. Now if I could just get rid of that pesky fear that he'll have an affair anyway, "by accident"...


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, August 1st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but because of one madhatter's continued wayward mentality

THAT^^^^

is the key to whether MHs work at healing. Alas, its not necessarily always the case.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, August 1st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hated having to give up my "pristine" BS status here & admit that what I did 15 years ago was an A.

I just wanted to put that out there.

I thought it meant giving up my right to feel my feelings of being annihilated by WH/BH's A's. I know that it doesn't & I know I deserve love, care, and support, but it is really hard.

I feel lost & lonely on the boards now. I feel like I empathize with WH/BH, but sometimes I just don't want to. I just want comfort for my intense pain & not look at anything I've done.

It's made me feel very depressed. Before I finally admitted to myself that I really did have an A & that I said & did horrible things during that time period, I just wanted to believe that I was a good, if slightly damaged person.

At the time of my confession, WH/BH wasn't mentally present, so I could just ignore what I had done & not be held accountable or look at myself. Or better, look at any of the hurt I might have caused WH/BH.

Looking at the hurt I caused WH/BH was & is very depressing to me. I don't want to accept that I ever hurt him.

Where I'm at right now is so confronting & uncomfortable.

I'm alternately shattered by his A's & devastated at betraying him. I want to hug him & put my hands around his face. Then I want to cry & tell him how much he's hurt me & ask "How could you hurt me? I loved you so much? Why is this person so important to you that you would hurt me so much, again & again with this person?"


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
MegM
♀ Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 1:13 AM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Everyone, welcome to MH Jenna'sMum.

BB - I really get what your saying in terms of disclosing your A here on SI. I had details of mine in my profile - but was not at all keen to talk about it here. Not sure why exactly. SOme how I think to pull it 'of the shelf' would give BF a type of pass in his or others minds.

Anyway. I really relate to your mission of now aiming to be the best person you can be. So I am focussing on me, my choices etc.

But today and yesterday have been bad days. I am now movng right into his Affair season. Every week there is another significant date. I guess this is what people mean by 'you can never unknow what you know!"

JM I am really keen to reply to your posts. I am just having some rubbish days. So if you all don't mind I am going to do a bit a vent here (as it doesn't feel ok for me to do that anywhere else anymore)
But I wll come back and reply with more consideration.

... My head keeps screaming again. My eyes are foging over again. I can't think for longer than a few minutes.

A few weeks ago BF rang a mutual work colleague of ours and flirted with her. Of his own violition. He was not ringing her back - just wanted a little ego rub I guess and made the call. This woman (I have met once) has crap boundaries and is very flirtatous. We both know that and had discussed it before his phone call.

Since then I have reeled backwards. I have had some physical symptoms again and to be honest for the first time since discovery day - I am wondering if I even feel like fighting anymore. I briefly moved into a place of power on this during our therapy session the other day. Able to see and say that I would not allow this to take me back to the ugliness in my own behaviour (anger, fury, raging, hitting, complete desolation etc).

I said I had therefore detached a bit because that kept me in my own dignity.
And to be honest .. if not for my babies.. I think I would be moving out for a while at least.

God I just feel so emptied.

Sorry MH"s ... I know you all must have these days too.

I have fought so hard for this M. I have loved him so much. I just want to find that grit again and keep fighting. But I can't seem to do much more than sleep .. oh and eat. The A diet is officially OVER .. now there is comfort that can only be found in hot chips it would seem.
Sorry MH"s and thank you for reading my whinyness.


BS / fWS- me 41 (@ DDay)
WS / BS - him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 children (6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulde

Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi MegM,

Hope you're feeling better today-I am.

I have both my babies at home with me today & that is really nice.

I've been chatting with my friend who worked with me during the time of my A.

She is helping me get back into that time frame so I can remember things.

I think I had been thinking all these years it was a stupid mistake, but when I think about WH/BH & my betrayal to him, THAT'S when I get the full impact of my actions & how destructive they were to me AND my M.

That's a GOOD, but nauseating thing, to get-FOR MYSELF.

It's a good thing to be able to feel the hurt I caused WH/BH, but also for me to acknowledge my destructive choices so I can grow & learn & be the best BB I can.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
whatjusthappened
♀ Member
Member # 34695
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all - I stepped away for a breather, but wanted to come back and check in.

bb, this:

I hated having to give up my "pristine" BS status here & admit that what I did 15 years ago was an A.
I just wanted to put that out there.

I thought it meant giving up my right to feel my feelings of being annihilated by WH/BH's A's. I know that it doesn't & I know I deserve love, care, and support, but it is really hard.

I feel lost & lonely on the boards now. I feel like I empathize with WH/BH, but sometimes I just don't want to. I just want comfort for my intense pain & not look at anything I've done.

explains exactly how I feel, and is a lot of the reason I needed a breather. Thanks for putting that into words.

And MegM - ((((hugs)))) How is your H feeling or what is he expressing about the phone call. Does he realize what he's done and what boundaries he's crossed? How has he responded. I hope you're having a better day today.

And JM - BIG, HUGE ((((hugs))) for you, hun. It's difficult not to compare A's, but as has been said here, it is not prodcutive. It's more productive to look at what each of you has done in response to your A's. You did not ask too much or push too hard by asking for honesty, remorse and hard work, and I think it's apparent that you were working on your issues that led to your A. You are so strong. I admire you.

Just wanted to drop in and say "hey"...I'm sort of ready to dip my toes back in the posting waters...


Me - 39
Him - 38
Married 15 years
2 DS
Day my world crashed down: 12/22/11
In R. Most days.

Posts: 777 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: AZ
MegM
♀ Member
Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Everyone

WJH - happy to see you here (as always).

BB - wow you are really inspiring me to get out of my funk and to focus on me!

NE - I have appreciated your questions and feedback so much over these months.

And SH - so much of your advice just rings every bell.

I realized that sometimes madhatters can't reconcile, not because of one of the A's, but because of one madhatter's continued wayward mentality.

This could nearly be a mantra for the MH forum!

this really is where the work is.

JM - I have seen your posts and threads from your very first. I also saw your H's.

This is the point of difference that I see in them and in a number of other MH's stories -

Someone that is remorseful and truly prepared to look in every dark corner. To change their behaviour.
To truly be authentic.

Someone who wants to hang onto their old comforts, their crutches and limps. When you have walked one way for a long long time - it hurts to attempt to walk differently. Those muscles are not strengthened. So those people go back to their old limp and reach for the wonky crutch.

JM - real reconciliatin and healing needs both people to be prepared to learn to walk again. I am unsure were things are at with you guys today - but from all I saw over these weeks and months - I don't believe your H. was ready to do the work. I believe he wanted to hang onto his old behaviour and the old power dynamic between you two - because for him that felt comfortable. And it seems that mattered to him - his own comfort.

Please listen to the others on this thread. Your expectations were those that will lead you to health and happiness. They in no way were unreasonable.

I think why you suffered so much as a BS is because of the intent and planning in your H;s actions. This was realatively unique.

Maybe you got stuck there because your pain was not truly acknowledged or felt by your H. I am not sure you saw true remorse in your H's actions after his recent A's.

WJH - re: BF's feelings / actions. We are struggling. For the first time in months it feels like we have gone backwards. He is stuck trying to 'understand' why he got chatty and flirty on the phone. I am stuck in asking why did he need to even make the call knowing what this person was like. He is asking himself 'why wasn't I more assertive or upfront in the communication'
I can't understand any of it.

He says he was angry at his boss for giving away the 'free lunch' with this person to his colleague. So rather than confront the boss he rang her and was chitty & maniputlative.

I am asking ... but why would you even have wanted to go to lunch with someone that had such rubbish boundaries.

I said thinking you could call her and be 'vigilant' is like a gambler sitting in front of a pocker machine saying I will touch the buttons but I won't put any money in!

He can not yet see the parrallel. I think he has a reliance (maybe addiction) to validation from females. I think this is his limp. When he is not getting it - it feels wrong! So his leg was sore ... he thought that wonky crutch looks pretty good.

and I am not up for it.

Am I overcooking this???????


BS / fWS- me 41 (@ DDay)
WS / BS - him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 children (6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulde

Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JM- I posted on WN's thread..maybe his last, my WH/BH also posted (I had WH/BH move out to get some peace for myself & my WH/BH was encouraging WN to accept your conditions so you guys could get some breathing room). It was super clear to me that WN was VERY hurt by your A, but instead of sitting with that pain, he amped up his bad boundaries & try to dull it out with a couple A's of his own.

Really emotionally immature.

Your conditions were VERY reasonable, I'm sorry he didn't get it. I will give him credit for posting up on the boards to let others take a shot at helping you guys out. Let us know how it's going.

WJH-Hi! Looking forward to hearing how it's going for you.

MegM-

I think he has a reliance (maybe addiction) to validation from females.

Well, all A's are about external unhealthy validation, yes?

When we get healthy & know our "hooks" & "triggers", there is this little inner "push" inside that upholds boundaries. It may be weak at first, but with practice it becomes stronger.

Awareness is key! Is he aware now?


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there is this little inner "push" inside that upholds boundaries. It may be weak at first, but with practice it becomes stronger.

This is so very true BB. I also like the analogy of learning how to walk differently MM. We're building healthier habits, and they take a while. Constant vigilance (lol, whenever I think this particular phrase, I get an image of Mad-Eye Moody from Harry Potter yelling this at his students). But it's true. Does it get exhausting sometimes, feeling like you're reevaluating everything about your life and yourself? Yes, it does. But I'm finding a greater sense of peace as I do. This week, I apologized to someone in my family for something that had been between us for a very long time. I did it without expecting forgiveness, or without bringing up her own actions; I did it because I knew I needed to own my actions. It's because of SI, because SI taught me and encouraged me to own every one of my actions, that I was able to apologize again, and I'm very thankful for that.

Life is so much better when you have owned your conscience (I know I haven't owned everything, but I'm working on it), when you do the healthy things finally. I value myself more than I ever have, and I recognize this not as selfishness, but as strength and responsibility.

I'm sorry that we're all going through some difficulties right now, but I'm glad we're all here. How are all of you doing today? beachbunny, noescape, NothngElseMattrs, MegM, rachelc, openbook, whatjusthappened, JennasMom, frigidfire, JandAandE, thegooddokta, tired girl...? Everyone who is here? Everyone who is lurking? Don't be shy.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 6:30 PM, August 2nd (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
JennasMom
♀ Member
Member # 35744
Default  Posted: 7:07 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NoEscape,

I don't even know if my husband went through stage 1 (realizing something is wrong), let alone stage 2 (committing to R). He left instead of trying to R and I think he still thinks his more recent affairs were okay. I don't think he is inescapable of R. I think he is too weak and too proud to try. If he couldn't do it then it would be easier but I don't think that is the case. I think he wants someone who didn't let him down and he wants to sleep with whomever. He can't really do that if he is with me.

BeachBunny,

I think fixing what was wrong with us is important regardless of what happens with our marriage. I don't know what happened to me that let me betray my husband and our vows. I am so not that girl. It disgusts me that I ever had an A and I know it will never happen again. I wish my WH felt the same way but I don't think he thinks there is anything really wrong with cheating. I've tried to keep my A separate from his As. He hasn't. His most recent affairs are always tied to my As. From what we've talked about he has always maintained that if I didn't have my EA the newer affairs wouldn't have happened.

And I hate that I had the affair because I feel like it limits what I can feel. I don't think I have the right to make all these demands of him because I am just as bad. Its my fault for betraying him but I can relate to losing the "pristine BS status". I was always the good girl growing up. Knowing I've betrayed myself as well as my husband is sometimes the toughest part about all of this.

Silver,

What he wanted for us to R is for me to drop talk about the affairs and forgive him for his affairs and the obvious things like NC with OM. I think his attitude has never really changed. Which is why people got on him so much on his threads. He didn't change his thinking. He is still in the wayward mindset.

I can't believe your grandmother said that to your H! It sounds like your husband handled it well though. I'm glad you and your husband are getting on the same page.

WhatJustHappenned,

I am so not strong. I've done so many weak things recently but I am trying to learn and make sure not to make the same mistake twice. But thank you for the hugs.

MegM,

I struggle with knowing that his affairs weren't an accident. I never wanted to have my EA. I didn't seek it out. He wanted his affairs. I try not to compare our affairs because it just makes me sad and I don't want to think about the three (that I know of) other women that have had sex with my husband.

I'm not even sure if he wanted us to go back to how they were. I don't think I'll ever be the same person to him because of my affair. And once he got the taste of single freedom he decided he'd rather have that then fight with his wife and daughter. Why would he want to go to MC and listen to me complain when he can go flirt with 19 year olds?

I'm sorry your husband faltered. I wish I had some advice but I am the worst at this. I don't know why someone who has been through all of this would put themself back in such a risk situation?

This isn't D&S so I'm not sure if its the right place but I need some advice on what to do with our relationship. I've asked him to reconsider R a couple times. I know I shouldn't have but I wanted to know we did everything possible to save things. He said he didn't want to get back together and he is trying to fastrack the divorce.

He has been trying to be friends with me the last couple weeks and has been doing a lot of nice things for me. I don't know if it is guilt or him actually caring but he has been exceedingly sweet and flirty with me. I was stupid enough to sleep with him last week and I've been feeling so low afterwords. He wasn't very nice afterwords and left in the middle of the night.

I don't want to be a bitch to him. I do like having him around for the most part. When he has been at home he has been good. He has helped around a lot, he's been involved with Jenna, he is being generous financially. I don't want to make our divorce ugly. I just don't know if this can work. Can we really be friends after all of this?


Me: fWW/BW, 29, EA
Him: WH, 30 (whatnow999), Multiple PAs
Married: 6 years, together 9 years
Kids: DD, 4 and DS, 6 Wks

Posts: 151 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Midwest
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This isn't D&S so I'm not sure if its the right place but I need some advice on what to do with our relationship. I've asked him to reconsider R a couple times. I know I shouldn't have but I wanted to know we did everything possible to save things. He said he didn't want to get back together and he is trying to fastrack the divorce.

He has been trying to be friends with me the last couple weeks and has been doing a lot of nice things for me. I don't know if it is guilt or him actually caring but he has been exceedingly sweet and flirty with me. I was stupid enough to sleep with him last week and I've been feeling so low afterwords. He wasn't very nice afterwords and left in the middle of the night.

I don't want to be a bitch to him. I do like having him around for the most part. When he has been at home he has been good. He has helped around a lot, he's been involved with Jenna, he is being generous financially. I don't want to make our divorce ugly. I just don't know if this can work. Can we really be friends after all of this?

I think it is up to you if you would want to be friends with him. I would say ...don't feel badly if you don't want to be friends with him. Being cordial might be okay, especially if you need to communicate about coparenting. But you don't have to feel obligated to take care of him or be extra nice to him. You're healing right now. And I'm sorry, but leaving you in the middle of the night after you two having sex... That's very low of him. You're not stupid. You've loved this man for... ten years, right? You built a life with him, and it doesn't go away overnight.

Though, gently, it sounds like it hurt you afterward, especially when he wasn't nice. Protect yourself emotionally. As hard as it is, it might be better to limit communication with him to divorce details and Jenna. Start over with NC. The longer you go, the easier it will be. When you want to talk to him or see him, remind yourself of the ways he wasn't willing to R, of the ways he justified his As. And above all, keep reminding yourself of everything you have done to be a better, stronger person. Take time to let him go.

Give yourself credit that you did do everything you could to fight for your M. You did. You went above and beyond to save it. It's time to accept that you are a winner, because you handled it and are still handling it in your very best.

It sounds like he is sending you mixed messages. Telling you he wants to fast-track the divorce, yet being sweet and flirty and sleeping with you. If anything, use his "friendliness" to your advantage to make sure you don't get shortchanged in the divorce. Giving you mixed messages isn't fair to you. He somehow feels better about himself knowing he cheated on you and now is leaving you, and yet he can still be charming with you.

(((JM)))

You're not alone. I can relate. My ex did similar things. He was unspeakably abusive to me, everything from sexual abuse to cheating to manipulation, with a grand finale of stealing my car - and yet he thought he could charm me back a few months later. [Stupid me, I betrayed my H for four days with him when I made plans to meet with him, albeit with plans to get revenge on ex/OM. When I finally said no (I didn't get in the car with him, I walked away), I wondered why I hadn't done it months before. I betrayed my H and myself when I should have just said no.] I should have realized long before I even met H what an unhealthy person ex was, and stopped.

I promise, it gets easier when you give yourself permission to let go of someone who is unhealthy. I'm doing it again right now (my grandparents). It sucks, I've got a raging cold and headache and the kiddo bit me in the boob, but I know by next week or two, I'll be okay. The depression will lift. Just got to make a plan to get back up.

(((everyone here)))

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:51 PM, August 2nd (Thursday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, August 2nd (Thursday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((JM)))))))

You have done a lot. You realize how your A hurt your WH/BH, your M, and ultimately, YOURSELF. You get it; the impact, the remorse, etc... No need to put YOUR A as an obstacle to YOUR healing from your H's A's. He betrayed you, seemed superficially remorseful, and didn't agree to your healthy boundaries. Allow yourself to feel your feelings. You matter, your feelings matter. You do this for you & for Jenna, understand?

give yourself permission to let go of someone who is unhealthy

The only thing you can control is you. So the only thing you can do with unhealthy people is keep your distance & boundaries.

I am so sorry that you were physically intimate with WN, only to have him continue being unhealthy. I made the same mistake with my WH/BH (had gotten physically close to him when I thought the lies were done-they were not) and it decimated me emotionally. I was so lonely & he was finally being the H I thought I married. When I found out there were more serious betrayals he was hiding, I was shattered. I felt violated & somewhat suicidal.

Until WN gets some serious help, let him proceed with D & go NC (talk of only kids, D, finances). If he gets help & you want to R, you can always explore the possibility of creating a new M.

Just start grieving, healing, taking care of you & Jenna. He is too unhealthy to R with anyway. You can do this. Give yourself time. Take it one step at a time. Things WILL start to even out.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
whatjusthappened
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Member # 34695
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JM -
This isn't D&S so I'm not sure if its the right place but I need some advice on what to do with our relationship. I've asked him to reconsider R a couple times. I know I shouldn't have but I wanted to know we did everything possible to save things. He said he didn't want to get back together and he is trying to fastrack the divorce.

He has been trying to be friends with me the last couple weeks and has been doing a lot of nice things for me. I don't know if it is guilt or him actually caring but he has been exceedingly sweet and flirty with me. I was stupid enough to sleep with him last week and I've been feeling so low afterwords. He wasn't very nice afterwords and left in the middle of the night.

I don't want to be a bitch to him. I do like having him around for the most part. When he has been at home he has been good. He has helped around a lot, he's been involved with Jenna, he is being generous financially. I don't want to make our divorce ugly. I just don't know if this can work. Can we really be friends after all of this?

Very gently sweetie, you can't make him reconsider R because he isn't capable of looking at his behavior and his "whys" closely enough to offer you true R. Being nice, friendly, flirty - that has nothing to do with R. That's him wanting his ego fed, then shutting it off once he gets what he wants. When he gets hungry for the attention again, it'll come right back. Once you learn to identify the cycle, I think you'll see this is accurate. He is a very, very broken man and you cannot make him change. You could be there to help him and support him if he WANTED to change, but I truly don't think he wants it yet, IMHO.

You and WN have each mentioned a couple times (I think) that he would not have had his A's in Spain had it not been for your EA. That's bullshit. No more than you can say, "If WN had done X, Y, and Z, I wouldn't have had my EA" can he blame his A's (any of them) on you or what you did.

You say you don't want to be a bitch to him, and I understand. So don't. Don't be anything to him. Don't be nice, don't be mean, don't be accomodating, don't be difficult. Know your limits and boundaries (and, boy, that's tough to learn so be gentle with yourself) and live by them. Kids and finances only. It will get easier, but every time you jump at WN's affections you set yourself up for him to do it again. I suspect that you, like me, have a hard time disappointing people, particularly WN. Let go of that. You no longer have any need of his approval. As long as he's genuinely attentive to Jenna, let him do that, but as far as you're concerned, turn your back. It really will be best for you, and what's best for you will end up being what's best for Jenna.

I think you ARE strong because you keep getting up, dusting yourself off, and trying again. That takes balls. I know it doesn't feel like it. I used to HATE when people who knew about my H's A said I was strong. Thought they were full of shit. But now I think that maybe they just saw something in me that I wasn't prepared to see yet.

(((JM and Jenna))


Me - 39
Him - 38
Married 15 years
2 DS
Day my world crashed down: 12/22/11
In R. Most days.

Posts: 777 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: AZ
noescape
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Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, the last few posts by you all have been extremely helpful and triggery (but not in a bad way). The past few months, I've been busy shutting down my emotions (and my codependency).

bb, I think you're really racing ahead well into healthy territory and your insights are really helpful. Thank you.

MM, THIS

Someone who wants to hang onto their old comforts, their crutches and limps. When you have walked one way for a long long time - it hurts to attempt to walk differently. Those muscles are not strengthened. So those people go back to their old limp and reach for the wonky crutch.

Is so spot on. Regardless of how much Eneseye "intends" to do the right thing, its always so much easier for her to not to. I didnt really know what it was that caused her to stay in the fog for these past 2 years while claiming (words vs. actions?) to be working on R (continual lies? continuing A(s)? no real NC with the (multiple) APs? or just plain PA/CA behaviour?), now I have gotten to "I dont care". She's a big girl, its for her to own. All I know is that the M is extremely unsafe for me (and my kiddos) because of her continued wayward though processes and I just need the strength to enforce the right consequences attached to my boundaries.

JM, I could have also said the same about my W

I think he is too weak and too proud to try. If he couldn't do it then it would be easier but I don't think that is the case.

This and the fact that I too was the betrayer has kept me here in limboland for over 18 months after I tired of the TT and gaslighting and insincerity.
What you also describe about WN is such a cake-eater mentality. I dont think you can ever start fixing anything in the M as long as he continues to think that way.

Now, the 'triggery' part. When I read about

I believe he wanted to hang onto his old behaviour and the old power dynamic between you two - because for him that felt comfortable. And it seems that mattered to him - his own comfort.

Yes, she's so used to the subtle power dynamic through the lies and mind games and PA manipulation she's had over me for over 8 years now that its something she would never want to give up-its far too comfortable for her there. Its the comfort of knowing (no matter how shitty it is for the both of us, or our kids or the overall health of the M) that SHE IS IN CONTROL.

He has been trying to be friends with me the last couple weeks and has been doing a lot of nice things for me. I don't know if it is guilt or him actually caring but he has been exceedingly sweet and flirty with me

Because of the Dr Harley "program" we did this for over a year; all the while I kept vacillating between hope and despair. I took her "being nice" as a sign of her working towards R. Fact is, her ACTIONS dont match up to her words or intentions. I read too much into stuff she said and promised and committed to yet could never find in herself to deliver. I felt even more decimated because I DID do what I could and was asked to or was expected to, yet she has continued to be so heartless; reciprocity anyone?

Its only when I read about the 180 and DETACH, it kinda started coming together for me. This was a person who had and would keep using her subtle manipulation and emotions to keep controlling a situation she would otherwise find unsafe (i.e. a relationship where she'd have to be vulnerable). I have had to force myself to differentiate between our A's since, soon after DDay, she actually tried justifying my A in the context of our shitty M, Pre-A. It took me some time to figure out, but that was her actually justifying HER A's and hence wanted to minimise MY owning MY bad choices (sick and twisted thinking but I am equally to blame).

I made the same mistake with my WH/BH (had gotten physically close to him when I thought the lies were done-they were not) and it decimated me emotionally. I was so lonely & he was finally being the H I thought I married. When I found out there were more serious betrayals he was hiding, I was shattered. I felt violated & somewhat suicidal.

Just replace the "physically close" with "emotionally close" and I have felt this way since DDay 2 (and through DDays 3,4 ....) - clarification: DDays in the sense of TT - I have and still feel so VIOLATED and ABUSED. Thats what explains my emotional shut down and detaching (though she's loving it like a pig in swill coz thats her ideal Emotionally Unavailable / Conflict Avoidant modus operandi). You know what, I said to myself, holding all this resentment and hurt pains only one of us and it surely doesnt affect her. It holds me back from trying to be healthy and working on my issues-no matter how hard I try since we're in this toxic dance of codependent/PA and nothing changes this dance like a proper detachment and (finally) boundaries attached to consequences. Thank you to SI for that.

On that point, I would like to point to some great work done by Dr George Simon (http://counsellingresource.com/) which has been helpful to me in a lot of ways.

And finally:

You can't make him reconsider R because he isn't capable of looking at his behavior and his "whys" closely enough to offer you true R. Being nice, friendly, flirty - that has nothing to do with R. That's him wanting his ego fed, then shutting it off once he gets what he wants. When he gets hungry for the attention again, it'll come right back. Once you learn to identify the cycle, I think you'll see this is accurate. He is a very, very broken man and you cannot make him change. You could be there to help him and support him if he WANTED to change, but I truly don't think he wants it yet, IMHO.

I think this is where the 2 years (probably more like 8 years) of the toxic dance came about from. Thats exactly the cycle she follows throughout. I tried to "force R" and thought I could MAKE her change. Fact is-it was NEVER my prerogative and something SHE HASNT YET bought into. She is used to "grand gestures" which signify nothing, even her posts here (from a month ago) ring so hollow, and thats the hook she uses to keep me "engaged".

It will get easier, but every time you jump at WN's affections you set yourself up for him to do it again. I suspect that you, like me, have a hard time disappointing people, particularly WN. Let go of that. You no longer have any need of his approval.

This is where my efforts need to be.

As for me, I know that there is a lot of focus on HER (part of the toxic dance we've engaged in). The truth is that I'm well past looking for my "why's" and I do not pin them on anything like FOO or deep seated unhealthy coping mechanisms. I just KNOW that my beliefs (about myself) and CHOICES were plain wrong and unhealthy. That its inexcusable and not even "understandable" that I allowed my boundaries to be so weak and unsafe. That I would NEVER allow this to be a dynamic that I would expect from my spouse so why allow it from myself? I think things like what BB said HERE (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=465883) ARE far more important than anything an IC or a book will help me to see (having said that I dont discount that IC/books like Not just friends and others that are on the standard SI reading list CAN help a lot).

Lastly (but not least) I think arriving at SI was the beginning of the turning point for ME (rather than the M or this relationship). Its been of critical importance how the 2x4's and digging within oneself/working on HEALTHY outweighs anything that the "fixing the M/recovering from an A" kind of dynamic induces (BTDT for over 2 years). And learning not to be too hard on yourself... as WAL puts it; "we all blunder", so grow from your mistakes and there is no "RIGHT" way to climb out of this cesspool, we all learn from each other and from our mistakes. The key word is WORKING at it (not just rugsweeping it or shallowly "moving on").

It is this that keeps me here and I read a lot more than I post. And every thread offers some insight and a new way to think/approach myself and my thinking patterns and beliefs. Not everything gives me an aha moment, but the sum of the parts is life altering.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
noescape
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Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, and sh, thanks for the role call

"Eating a shit sandwich everyday" is all I can respond with...


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
whatjusthappened
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Default  Posted: 5:16 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I read a lot more than I post

Me too, these days. I hear ya.

And yes - as for roll call, thanks sh. We are...well, we are. Some days good, some days great, some days I want to run away and join the circus. We are in R - we're both busting our asses to be better partners, parents, and people - but some days I'm so indifferent and on the fence that I wonder if I'm more in limbo. I think more than anything I'm just tired of dealing with all of this. I wish I could, in good conscience, just rugsweep this away. I know I can't, and I won't try, but it's so tempting...

But on the awesome news front, we have moved into the new home and are away from the house of horrors. We all love the new place, and the boys are making friends with neighborhood kids, so all is good on that front.


Me - 39
Him - 38
Married 15 years
2 DS
Day my world crashed down: 12/22/11
In R. Most days.

Posts: 777 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: AZ
silverhopes
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Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Checking in...

Just writing here because something is happening right now. And I can't post in JFO. H is talking on the phone with someone. He used a tone I hadn't heard before, so I listened in. I'm finally getting the idea it's a guy, but I overheard something. H and this guy were in a program together when I was pregnant. It sounds like while they were in this program, a counselor, "I think her name was B*****", rubbed herself up against my H one day while she was leaving the laundry room. So he thought she was interested in him. Other things happened (didn't catch it all), and apparently H used to go upstairs with her and sit next to her and read with her (but I swear he doesn't read with or around me!!!) until it was time for her to go. He tried to get her number, but he said he couldn't because "there's a two-year limitation of when a counselor can go out with a client". Or something to that effect.

So now I get a small bit of confirmation that he really wasn't being totally faithful during my pregnancy.

I feel... sad. Well, like I said earlier, sometimes R is held back because of one wayward's continued mentality. I can't believe he would reminisce on her, and worst of all, he never told me about her.

Right now, I don't know if this is healthy or not, but I have a strong urge to take romance totally off the table with him. No sex, no kisses, no "I love yous". I just don't want to give myself to him right now when he's made me feel so foolish. I'd rather just mellow out and try to be only friends with him for now while I figure out if I can live with this and how the heck I am going to confront him. There's a small doubt, that maybe he was talking about some girl from before. But I don't think so. There was this girl (a former counselor) we ran into in the supermarket during my pregnancy, after he'd left the program, who seemed extremely interested in him. Telling him where she lived, ignoring me, saying how much she wished she'd been there for his last day. According to my H, rubbing her crotch. What if this was her?

Would it keep my sanity to just be friends? Is it even healthy to still be in love with him at this point? I feel deeply disgusted and gutted.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:24 PM, April 27th (Saturday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
beachbunny
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Default  Posted: 8:04 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Peeps-

I'm increasingly embracing this thread, you are all so insightful, due to the unique situation.

(((((((huggggsss to all))))))))

noescape:

Wowza! Lot's o' good stuff in your post!

Before I forget, check out Chili's post in S & D to help you detach from the toxicity: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=465934

She's a big girl, its for her to own.

Yep. So, awareness first, yes? Then actions/boundaries/consequences next. I'm a total coda/PA ballroom dancer pro (me=coda, WH/BH=PA), so I really get what's going on for you.

If you feel unsafe, act on that feeling & enforce your boundaries. Do you know what your boundaries are? Do you know what the consequences are?

This was a person who had and would keep using her subtle manipulation and emotions to keep controlling a situation she would otherwise find unsafe (i.e. a relationship where she'd have to be vulnerable).

Yep. And that is so sad. But you can't fix it. Just keep on with the plan:

-detach
-boundaries
-consequences

Actions+Consistency+Time= Trust. (both my IC & the CSAT said this)

Guess what? You have the right to protect yourself (physically & emotionally) & the duty to protect your kids. If you're having a rough time keeping boundaries, just think, "My kids need to see a healthy parent so they don't end up in this hell". Because this is pretty hellish, yes? Keep moving. Keep things tight for you & the kiddies, letting out a little lead as she shows you that you can trust a little more. I'm not saying R, I'm just saying her access to you & kiddies (physically & emotionally). Forgive me, but do you think she's still having an A or simply just being unhealthy?

I have and still feel so VIOLATED and ABUSED.

I do, too. And guess what? THAT feeling is HEALTHY. Because they DID DO THAT. So act on that feeling and keep boundaries until they show you something different.

her ideal Emotionally Unavailable / Conflict Avoidant modus operandi). You know what, I said to myself, holding all this resentment and hurt pains only one of us and it surely doesnt affect her.

Nailed it. Also known as "shut down". Super fun when you're crying your eyes out & they sit there like a zombie continuing to lie & manipulate. But yeah, at some point, these great insights need to translate into actions, otherwise...they are just great insights & you continue to be the only one affected by everything. Again, so sad for her, that she will not let herself feel. That is a life not worth living, IMO.

So again, let's hear your plan to stop this "dance".

(((((((noescape)))))))


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 8:13 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

whatjusthappened-

Congrats on moving-that must feel really good.

I think more than anything I'm just tired of dealing with all of this.

I feel ya. WH/BH may or may not be on the same page as me, but I'm tired of the crap & now the only way out is through. So I'll keep being in action.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
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