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User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
beachbunny
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Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((((silverhopes))))))

Would it keep my sanity to just be friends? Is it even healthy to still be in love with him at this point? I feel deeply disgusted and gutted.

After I found out that WH/BH cheated on me (he says EA, but they had a few dinners) with MOW#1 from his FIRST A 14 years ago, again 5-6 years ago when I was pregnant with our 2nd DS, I told him:

"It takes a very special kind of fucked up person to cheat on his pregnant wife."

I MEAN that. To cheat on the sick, pregnant, or otherwise vulnerable is FUCKED UP.

Sorry, it IS.

And they better figure out PRONTO why they thought that would be cool.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 9:52 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((silverhopes)))) that sounds horrible. I'm sorry for your pain.

I have never been a mother, so I don't know how you ladies have felt being betrayed while P, but I can only imagine, as Bb said, that it's even more messed up than all this A/MH crap is in the first place. TBH, it makes me that much more scared to be P someday because of how vulnerable you are in general (to criminals wanting to steal your car/purse, etc as well).

silver, I don't know if I'd be able to have emotional/physical intimacy with someone who kept that kind of info from me, after D-Day and the TT immediately after... Plus, considering he was kind of in cahoots with his buddy on the other line on the phone? Kind of like bragging, no? I do think that sometimes guys try to be "bros" and say "bro-ey" things to sound cool with each other, but there's a line. noescape, any other dude MH's, do you agree?

As far as being "just friends" and being in love with him? Oh, dear, I don't know. I'm so sorry for your pain. ((((silverhopes)))). I can't say I'd be as calm as you.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
silverhopes
♀ Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:43 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you both. Beachbunny, I totally agree - it takes a special kind of fucked-up to cheat on a pregnant woman. How did you handle it when you found out? I suddenly realized, when I feel like not being intimate, that would kind of be the 180, wouldn't it? Did any of you here do the 180? Even just for a breather from our awful situations? How would that work, as we're mad-hatters? I think we still have rights, but it seems like there would be a twist since we wear both hats.

NothngElseMattrs, you're right, it did sound a lot like bragging when he was talking to his friend. The "good" news, if you can call it that is that he had already been unfaithful before I was pregnant - so at least I wasn't taken totally by surprise emotionally (though it didn't stop me from feeling heartbroken). I never really lowered my barriers again.

If I'm calm about this, it's probably because he's done this so much, I was kind of beginning to wonder when he'd do it again. There was the situation with my cousin a few weeks ago. Why wouldn't it happen again? My stakes are already lowered.

I still think he slept with someone else when I was pregnant, but I haven't found out for sure. Yet. He still hasn't given me a good reason for why he only started carrying a condom in his wallet AFTER I was already three months pregnant...

Thank you both (((beach bunny)) (((NothngElseMattrs))) for supporting me right now. This is a painful night for me. Thank goodness, my sweet innocent son is here. I didn't ask H for help with him this whole afternoon. I'm not pushing him anymore, makes me feel too vulnerable when he won't.

~silver

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:34 PM, April 27th (Saturday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 11:05 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lol sorry to post so much. I'm just thinking more carefully and taking some good advice I've heard here before. Separate my actions from his. I can still work on owning my choices, even as I'm doing the 180. The 180 would help me right now because I won't be so codependent on him. I can work on detaching, look more carefully and more critically at his patterns from a detached perspective, and give myself a few weeks to decide if it's worth keep trying to R with him, or if I need to start thinking about how to ask him to leave.

180. Detach. Right now. I'll write more later.

I love this thread, this site, and all the awesome members here!


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 11:11 PM, August 3rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I did not 180... still working out which way is up, honestly. I don't think I need to 180, but if more TT/ WTFness comes up, I will certainly need to.

Found out 1.5mo after D-Day that H is SA and has some other issues so serious that I don't think I can even discuss on SI. I had no idea how to take this news, and the thought has occurred to me to 180... but I don't know. I still have so much guilt and feel very much like I need to make up for my A to him. He has gone to a 12 step meeting for SA a couple times and is in IC with a much better IC now... It does feel like it's all about him now, though. He does need to be working on his stuff, so I think he is doing the right things... but as for me, I'm scrambled.

I'm trying to deal with fixing the brokenness and fuckedupness of my A, while coping with *his* A... realizing that I was effectively tricked into marrying this guy makes it really hard to deal with. I've given him almost 5 years of my life, I guess by staying I'm doubling down the bets. I try not to dwell on the past unless it's constructive. I'm still in a lot of pain and searing anger at all of this. Me, him, OW, OM... the world... everything. I am so, so, so glad to be on SI. I'd have lost my mind if I hadn't, I think.

There isn't anyone among our friends for me or Mr NEM to confide in. We're still young enough that the only people we know that went through this (almost identical situation to our own) ended up blowing up their M after a few short months into the M. So far, we've lasted longer than they did.. for whatever sad badge of honor THAT is worth.

I kind of went on a ramble with this... sorry about that. Silver, if you need anything, just let me know:)


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 1:00 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rambling is good, because it helps us figure out our feelings, boundaries, health, actions, ourselves. Way healthier to get it all out rather than hold it all in.

I'm trying to deal with fixing the brokenness and fuckedupness of my A, while coping with *his* A

It feels so overwhelming, doesn't it? One thing that helps me to remember when I'm feeling overwhelmed is... We don't have to figure it all out overnight. We take a long time to rebuild ourselves, because we're learning new ways of being healthy.

I'm here to listen, if you want to talk. If it helps to ramble. Do you feel like you and your H have a good safe space to talk to each other and work through both your A's, where you can hear each other and tell each other your feelings? Have you two read any good books or articles together?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
MegM
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Member # 34941
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My gosh this thread has become some incredible I hardly know where to begin.

With total respect this is the most relevant and present conversation I have observed and participated in on SI. and that is saying something!

Wow NE -I am so sorry you have worked so hard for so long and that your W is still stuck were she is.

You and I have exchanged uite a few posts on these boards. And I want to reflect back to you that I what you have contributed here of these last days is just stand out healthy! I am not sure if you feel it - but your strenght and fortitude just jumps out of the screen.

YOu have not just left the crutches behind I reckon you have made a bonfire with them! Good on You!

I can understand that many of the observations you have made on this thread will have been full of pain . I just want to acknowledge how much I see you have gained!

SH - Taking any strokes from affairs, their collateral, or the affair like behaviours is not ok. It is not ok for your H. to draw on any of that for his ego.

You are completely right in your instincts that if he was doing this - that it means he is not keeing your M. safe for you.

Here is my thinking. When we are in a 'wayward mindset' (SI talk) we are like emotional vampires. We are seeking to draw on those around us to fullfill our hunger. Any exchange with others is only about satisfying that hunger of our broken ego. We have no reflection and hunt until we find another who is prepared to reflect back to us what we want. ... A mirror image of ourselves.

To unravel from this - we must examine, scrutinize and test every relationship and connection to ensure that we are not exchanging 'currency' that our connection with each being is authentic and life giving and is not about 'feeding'.

My thought about what seems to have occurred with this phone call. is not just about the seeming TT and lack of safety your H. has honoured. It also strikes me that this friend he was speaking to his no true friend. That the conversation was an exchange of currency and was about ego.

I think this could be why your instincts are screaming. Because it is an indicator that your H. is still looking to meet his ego needs through inauthentic avenues. And to make it worse it also involved TT and revealed lack of full disclosure.

I htink you are absolutely right to review reconciliation and to pause until you can feel safe.

We have had an overwhleming 48 hours here too - unpacing H's rcent phone call and withdrawal from active healing and reflection. I think we have had some break through. But actions are needed.

As BB siaid (and sorry I can't get back to that page to quote)

Consistent action = trust ... or something similar. I am going to go back and bump it up into a quote.

WJH I am not sure when your discovery day was - I can't see it on your profile. But I am thinking it was near the end of 2011. it is still such early days.

I am so glad to be a part of thisthread


BS / fWS- me 41 (@ DDay)
WS / BS - him 39-BlindFreddy (@DDay)
My DD's 13 Jan 2012 / 29 Jan / 27 Feb (Trickle truth for 5 wks)
His DDay Dec 2003 (details 06/12)
Married
3 children (6 - 16 at discovery)
remembering "Sunshine on my shoulde

Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Australia
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a cold. My head is stuffy, I don't feel good & all my support team is out of town. WH/BH is also out of town-gone since wednesday, back tomorrow night.

He checked in via text this morning. Asked how everyone's doing. Told him I'm still sick, kids are tired. Asked him how it's going. He said he might get a pair of free shoes. I said that's nice.

That's it.

And it's ok.

I'm reading NJF again-bought it a few years ago since my IC & I were talking about WH/BH's first affair 14 years ago & I felt incomplete about it & troubled. (Wow, my instinct is good because I found out that he'd been in contact over the last 5-6 years with MOW#1).

Anyway, I'm reading it and realizing how much WH/BH has traumatized me over & over & over. By doing the exact opposite to help me heal.

So right now I feel like curling into a little ball. My family has been reaching out, but I'm just not feeling good right now. I don't want to isolate so I'm at least posting here to connect.

I hope I feel better soon.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

Posts: 678 | Registered: Apr 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Bb))) we are here for you. I'm sorry you're isolated and sick. That was me the past few days. I'm still sick, but getting better. Take lots of vitamins and be good to yourself! You'll be better before you know it I think there's a certain degree of rundown-ness that we get after going through all this trauma for so long. I think that's why I got sick, maybe for you too?

I'm glad you're posting here at least. Sometimes putting on a face for family/friends/coworkers is just too exhausting sometimes. I know I feel that way a lot. It's part of the reason why I didn't want to go out or hang out with any of the coworkers/friends that tried to get me out of my shell last night. I just wanted to go home and make myself something nice besides lean cuisine for dinner and relax and watch the Olympics. It felt really good. I'm actually making myself go to the gym for the first time in a couple days today, too, now that I'm better. I definitely always feel better after a workout, even a light one.

I haven't bought NJF yet, but it's on my short list.

It feels so overwhelming, doesn't it?

All. The. Time. Sometimes I get my head above water and catch a breath and feel like this is doable. But some days I am just in over my head in this and I can't see the other side of it.

Do you feel like you and your H have a good safe space to talk to each other and work through both your A's, where you can hear each other and tell each other your feelings? Have you two read any good books or articles together?

We talk/text on the phone every day. We don't live together, so we can't always talk in person. We try to talk about our feelings and work through our stuff. Right now he's working through his SA, so his A is kind of pushed to the side for now. My A is something I'm actively working on, but we aren't discussing that as much either anymore because of the SA. We do need to address the addiction first before we can handle everything else (triage), but I'm worried that it'll lead to resentment for one or both of us down the road. He has read Out of the Shadows and has another SA book to read that he's working on now. I'm working on Mending a Shattered Heart and Codependent No More, followed by Boundaries in Marriage are next, waiting for me on the nightstand.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Before I forget, check out Chili's post in S & D to help you detach from the toxicity

Great thread, thanks a lot for this. It was very helpful.
Forgive me, but do you think she's still having an A or simply just being unhealthy?

The first year of the false R, yes, I did always feel like she was still having an A or at least had an AP or 2 on the back burner (gestation for a few months and return when the shit settles, KWIM?). There was still a lot of sneaking about and no true transparency. Since then, I KNOW that she is at least: 1) Hiding the truth and hence there is definitely still no mental NC with an AP or 2 (or 3 ), 2) carrying on with her wayward mindset/foggy behaviour of minimising/avoiding/rugsweeping and not owning her shit and not being transparent where it matters, 3) been trying to manipulate me in a hundred ways to go back into our toxic dance (yes, I fell for most of them) by saying stuff like "I did this before, but now...." or "I know I hurt you/I'm sorry I did blah..." AND YET carrying on with her prior behaviour.
Super fun when you're crying your eyes out & they sit there like a zombie continuing to lie & manipulate. But yeah, at some point, these great insights need to translate into actions, otherwise...they are just great insights & you continue to be the only one affected by everything.

and boy does she fake it so well. these insights. yeesh... academy award winning stuff... well, at least until i figured it out. I never could have believed she was such an insincere and cold individual until I started LOOKING for what everyone hears screams out: ACTIONS vs. WORDS!!!
So again, let's hear your plan to stop this "dance".

As of now; disengage. Not conversations, kids and finances only. I donít want to initiate nor get into any conversations with her. AT.ALL. I used to tell her everything post DDay (we were supposedly a team, remember?) and I found that all that she ever did was used it against me with her lies and insincerity. I know she reads here, has all my passwords and generally is still working overtime in second guessing me and doing what she did all her married life: i.e. making me and my reactions a construct of what she 'believes' me to be. Well, fuck that! she can stay married to that construct which helped her justify her A's and post DDay behaviour. I donít care to live by those rules-especially since she manipulates me into the exact positions which affirm her skewed ideas about me or this relationship (read: http://www.mailmandelivers.net/passive-aggression/)
YOu have not just left the crutches behind I reckon you have made a bonfire with them! Good on You!

far from it, I finally have let the fear of change engulf me. for far too long I just held it all at bay thinking "I can work through this for US, I can make this right for US, WE can be better, WE've got so much gunning for us" etc... etc.. etc... all flawed at the very core since there's no WE here and I have just begun to not only realise it but internalise it. That person I knew was a wisp of my imagination. That M I knew was never what it seemed. There was suddenly nothing to fight for - except the tangible things like the kiddos and the finances.

Plus, considering he was kind of in cahoots with his buddy on the other line on the phone? Kind of like bragging, no? I do think that sometimes guys try to be "bros" and say "bro-ey" things to sound cool with each other, but there's a line. noescape, any other dude MH's, do you agree?

I canít really comment though I think A thinking is all round fucked up. Someone who speaks and thinks like that is an ACTIVE wayward and needs the 180 HARD - for the safety of the BS. I know that since my DDays I have actively discouraged any enabling talk with my friends (I have also discouraged marriage). Friends of the A are no friends of the M. I know it hurts like mad that my BIL knew all along, or knew enough yet did nothing to stop my W from her A's. I also know that it hurts me like mad when she speaks for hours with him and has little more than 10 minutes (ever) of proper conversation stored for me. This also tells me who/what she is comfortable with and it is definitely her wayward mindset and anyone/anything that enables it.

And finally, from Chili's thread, this statement stood out for me, hope it helps others here:

ďRemember cause and effect. He put in motion a series of events that had real world consequences. He didnít respect you and he also doesnít respect himself or the agreements you made. He is the only one who can change that by new choices to modify behaviors and thinking. ď End of story. This is what I have to work with and in that framework, I gotta do what I gotta do. Also remember that wherever he ends up is also not your fault.

sh, NeM, MM & bb, hang in there, youíre all giving great insights, thanks a lot.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, August 4th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How much do yall feel like the whole "listen to your gut" thing applies?

Part of me leans toward gut freak-outs as paranoid... the other part wants to listen every time the BS'es get on the "listen to your gut!!!" horn to each other on the JFO/General/etc boards...

It's so hard to know if I should be worried or not.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
whatjusthappened
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Member # 34695
Default  Posted: 1:52 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow...I really echo what Meg said about how incredible this thread has become. Thanks to all of you for sharing and supporting.

I am on my iPad and not easily able to reply to everyone. I promise to say a bit more tomorrow, but I DID want to say:

bb, I hope you feel better soon. I just got over being seriously sick and the spare time was tough for me. I was already feeling crappy, and I decided to go and torture myself further with obsessing over II4L's A. Sooooo not a healthy use of time.

NEM, are you in my head!? H and I are going through a tough spot because I don't know if my gut is right when it "knows" something is wrong, or if it's just me freaking out because I know no better. I wish I had a good answer. I'm very interested in everyone else's input.

sh and ne, I'm so sorry you find yourself in such difficult situations. I wish so much I had words of wisdom. (((hugs))) to you both.


Me - 39
Him - 38
Married 15 years
2 DS
Day my world crashed down: 12/22/11
In R. Most days.

Posts: 777 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: AZ
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:31 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How much do yall feel like the whole "listen to your gut" thing applies?

I learnt one lesson: never EVER EVER shut it down. EVER. Back in '04, my gut was screaming that something was amiss (her A's started in early '05) and I ignored it for months, then I went into snooping mode and installed a keylogger on my home computer; nothing (the A's were initiated from her mothers home computer). I then tended to snoop a bit less-now and again-till I literally "TALKED my gut out of it"????!!! WHY??? because "she wasn't capable of something like this", I had no evidence, "there, I snooped and nothing" etc.. etc..

BIG mistake. Ok, I know that it wasnt the A's or AP's to blame and she'd have done it regardless; yet the lesson I learnt was that my gut was right ALL ALONG. In silencing it, I had done myself a huge disservice.

Similar situation through DDay and all the TT; it was primarily the GUT and nothing else which steered me into "something going on" and then to "she's still hiding stuff/lying about stuff". If not for the gut, she'd have rugswept everything by now and probably back into some form of her A's.

Ok, so the gut does not do forensics, nor does it pin point the exact areas you need to focus on. Some call it paranoia, and yes, it may induce obsessive stuff (like checking emails, history, phone logs, file folders, clothes drawers etc..). But THATS the crazymaker that is your spouse doing that to you, NOT your gut. Your gut was right, its your spouse who you want to believe but who will lie to you straight out thats making you go crazy and obsessive and freaky.
Gut:1 Crazymaking Spouse:0

But heck, if that spidey sense is tingling-DO NOT IGNORE IT. EVER.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I knew something was up 4 days after he met OW#2. We sat in a parking lot and I screamed at him to tell me what was wrong. I felt like I was going crazy. He said nothing was going on and if I didn't believe him to call OW#1. Well, nothing was going on with her... it was another woman. I said I'm walking out this door if you don't tell me. He said nothing is going on. Fucking liar.
I will NEVER forget that he did that to me. NEVER.... I'm married to a coward.
And I found out myself about 2 weeks later....
The gut doesn't lie. But, what a burden it is to have to be tuned into it all the time. I just want to be, ya know, just be...

[This message edited by rachelc at 8:45 AM, August 5th (Sunday)]


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

ďGrief does not change you, Hazel. It reveals you.Ē


Posts: 3673 | Registered: Dec 2010
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As of now; disengage. Not conversations, kids and finances only. I donít want to initiate nor get into any conversations with her. AT.ALL. I used to tell her everything post DDay (we were supposedly a team, remember?) and I found that all that she ever did was used it against me with her lies and insincerity. I know she reads here, has all my passwords and generally is still working overtime in second guessing me and doing what she did all her married life: i.e. making me and my reactions a construct of what she 'believes' me to be. Well, fuck that! she can stay married to that construct which helped her justify her A's and post DDay behaviour.

So it sounds an awfully lot like a power struggle. I wonder what, in her mind, she is struggling for, that she won't be transparent with you.

all flawed at the very core since there's no WE here and I have just begun to not only realise it but internalise it.

I'm sorry, noescape. That's a very hard place to be, and then the person you feel you should be able to turn to, is the person who is causing you pain.

Anyway, I'm reading it and realizing how much WH/BH has traumatized me over & over & over. By doing the exact opposite to help me heal.

That's a hard realization beachbunny. How do you begin to trust someone who broke it so many times? Has he addressed that he's done this?

And I'm sorry you're sick. No fun. Sometimes I wonder if we get sick in part because we're struggling. Like it manifests in our bodies too.

We have had an overwhleming 48 hours here too - unpacing H's rcent phone call and withdrawal from active healing and reflection. I think we have had some break through. But actions are needed.

What kind of actions would help you feel safe, MegM? What has he said he's willing to do?

And I think you're right about my H seeing that conversation as an ego hit. I get that sense from most conversations. He also spends a lot of time very concerned with how he's dressed when he goes out. At first, I saw it as something he was doing to build his self-esteem, but sometimes... I think it's understandable to seek validation, but I am still learning the line between that and an ego hit. Does anyone have any insights? Maybe it was because he notices female attention so much, and I've heard him brag to more than one guy about instances. Anything from pursuing a girl to how he was in bed with her.

And when he was talking to his friend about me, it was, "She's running up and down the halls with our son, trying to wear him out. Yeah, she has a great-grandmother who just had eye surgery. Yeah, we got married in Hawai'i." No bragging whatsoever. Just "same old, same old" when it comes to me (then again, maybe I need to watch my own attitude. I don't need to be getting ego hits from how my husband talks about me to other people). While I'm happy he didn't talk much about us actually (I value our privacy), I notice a significant difference in tone when he talked about me versus when he talked about the girl he pursued. His tone sounded alive when he was going on about her.

Then again, he told me that he told one of his friends once that he couldn't go out with him, and his friend's response was, "What, is your old lady breaking your balls again?" NothngElseMattrs, you hit in on the head: he calls all of them "bro!"

We do need to address the addiction first before we can handle everything else (triage), but I'm worried that it'll lead to resentment for one or both of us down the road.

I think it sounds like you two are doing good by addressing the addiction first. Wait until he gets treatment going. Have you told him your worries about having the A's on the backburner for now? It doesn't hurt to keep checking in, making sure you're still keeping everything on the table.

How much do yall feel like the whole "listen to your gut" thing applies?

Is your gut telling you something's going on? Is there any way you can check/verify?


Find peace. Or sleep on it.

Posts: 3762 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
NothngElseMattrs
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Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My gut is telling me OW is going to try to contact him. She is getting married any day now, might have even been yesterday. I told him my concerns, and he said he'd tell me as soon as she does if it happens. And once I started thinking about how if that happens... if he didn't tell me, I'd have no way of knowing.

We live 3 hours apart because of work. We are not on the same phone plan (both on parents' plan cuz it's cheaper). No keyloggers on computers (that I know of.. I've vaguely suspected for a while that he has one on my comp or phone). I just have no way of knowing, and I was OBLIVIOUS when he was carrying on the A. And when he made out with some girl on the dance floor on a work trip. He was completely able to hide these things from me. I had no clue. He is a good actor/ compartmentalizer that he was able to do these things.

I'm the one that had a "tell" and couldn't keep my feelings off my face and actions.

This is why my gut flies into panic/ overdrive sometimes. I had no way of knowing before.... my spidey senses need to be way on their game if something is going on ever again if I'm to know (I think). I think that he is trying to do the right thing, to work on his SA, not watch porn because it leads down the SA rabbit trail, etc. But it could all be an act, maybe? He was ultra cranky last weekend and so even though I initially didn't want to have sex, I ended up giving it to him anyway and crying the whole time. I'm a mess.

He is SO SO SO paranoid about me. Every time I go out with friends (I'm the DD now when I do), he is worried, cuz it was a night that I was out with friends, and got abandoned, and ended up with OM. A lot of alcohol was involved. So I'm essentially not drinking much at all. He's still paranoid, even on nights where I'm at home and there are male announcer voices on the TV. Sometimes I have to send pictures to check in that I'm actually home and not just saying that I'm home.

...meanwhile nights happen like last night, where he went out with my sister (who he has admitted being v attracted to) and her bf and my sister's single friends, got shitfaced drunk, and he is puking all morning now. Didn't text/call me to say goodnight. If I did this, he would be FLIPPING THE EFF out. Double standard, much?

The fact that there's a double standard with shit like this makes me think that maybe he has a double standard elsewhere and I have no idea.

I still feel like all the TT hasn't come out from him. There was an event a year and a half ago when we were actually semi-living together when I was out of town for work, and some girl he knew from his last job (which was states away) came to town for work. He took her on his jetski, she showered in our bathroom, and they went out to dinner with another guy that they are friends with. I had THE WORST FEELING EVER when he told me about it after the fact. I think I bawled for half of that work trip, because I was just SO SURE that he cheated with her. My coworker on the trip with me had been married 3 times (he was older than my dad's age) and was trying to not tell me that he thought my H was cheating... but that's what he thought of the situation when I told him. I have this feeling that one day H is going to tell me that he did in fact do something with this chick. I've asked over and over so I don't ask anymore.

At this point, I think I'd go Hiroshima-nuclear if it came out that something happened. Or that he had another meetup with OW than what he told me. But I do think he told me everything about OW... some of it was pretty bad. I can't imagine he'd hold back another meetup and tell me things like that he bought her lingerie and fucked her a few hours after fucking me and putting me on a plane (me in tears) to go back home.

Sigh. I should just watch olympics and keep cleaning my apartment. Sorry for the vent, yall.

(((MH ladies))) and (((MH dudes


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sh, i hope you can maybe learn something from my experience. its only a power struggle as long as both of us are looking for an outcome from the other. I no longer have anything invested nor do I expect anything but the same shit from her, and you know what? Its liberating.

Dont get me wrong-her hurting me, the family and the kids still pains ... A LOT, but I do not expect any better from her and, quite frankly, dont give a damn. Her shit is HERs for a reason. Its so she can have a healthier life and a healthier dynamic in her family, with her kids, with her husband. Whatever.

If anything, the biggest lesson she taught me (the hard way) was to NEVER trust her with anything of value in my life again. Its a crappy way to conduct a M, but thats equally her choice, I cant force an outcome. Heck, the BM thread taught me another valuable lesson - which I think a lot of the MHs here can learn from; look for YOUR happiness - limbo or D or R, whatever your situation is.

Unfortunately, we're all in something of a coda/PA dance which only reeks toxicity. If our Spouses can't keep their pants on and cannot be arsed to wake up when the A's were the ultimate wake up call; because they still seek attention and validation (and hence 'happiness') from others outside of them and they can't have the always rainbows and unicorns in the real life we call M, snot, kids, bills, sickness and stress ; it still makes it NOT OK to seek that happiness outside of ourselves. Fact is, sh, YOU dont need to make excuses/"understand" your H needing external validation. Heck, its time the boy grew up and became an adult with being happy from within himself and with what he has and with what he MAKES OF HIMSELF-not what OTHERS think of him.

I can totally relate with the conversations you report about him-its sad; my W does EXACTLY the same. It used to hurt a lot, her talking to "friends" (and APs and whoever else) and being cool and free and awesome and funky and cute and engaging and chill etc... and she had the DULL, PROTECTIVE, SIMPLE, UNEMOTIVE conversations for me. Yeah, whatever. She IS two different people; one for me and one for her "real" friends. I know even "that" is a facade and a face which is not her stark reality. So she seeks validation by being so two (three, four?) faced. Poor her, its shitty. She's not authentic in the closest relationship she could have/should have had and she's not authentic with all those others either. I think she has no idea what is authentic about her at all. In the end, she loses. As long as she is a slave to her character disturbance, she's CHOOSING a life that sucks... meh.

Point is, you dont need to find a way to boost his fragile ego, or engage in satiating or condoning his unhealthy needs. HE can CHOOSE to have the healthy needs met IN THE M - BY DOING STUFF thats ADMIRABLE, THAT GETS YOUR ATTENTION, THAT MAKES IT EASIER TO CONVERSE.... ; but it shouldnt be at the threat of "If you dont, I'll have an A". Thats no way to live.

If (s)he is still talking in excited tones about the girl he pursued, thats an indicator of no real mental NC (much like my W's pristine view of some of her AP's - they sound like saints... yeah-real saintly having an A with a married mother of 3; destroying her life, her kids futures and her husband. wow, "GOOD GUYS" I'm sure).

I dont know if you're in active conversations with him, but try this exercise as a "line in the sand" exercise; write down the things you need to heal and everything that he does to hurt you and GIVE IT TO HIM. Its not for him, its for you. You can then LET GO of the outcome of all those resentments and fears and, eventually, of the pain. Most likely, he wont change nor care. If he does-point him to the resources but DO NOT ENGAGE. (Engagement is the toxic dance of death). You can then let all those thoughts, worries, hurts and resentments go on the back-burner and NOW you can focus on YOU.

Well, thats how I worked it. Thats what I feel was what SI was telling me. Now the outcome is HER problem. I am now concerned about INcome. Makes sense?


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The gut doesn't lie. But, what a burden it is to have to be tuned into it all the time. I just want to be, ya know, just be...

I've wanted to feel like I just AM for the longest time. I know this feeling.
he calls all of them "bro!"

I used to laugh all the time when guys our age started saying this all the time. Now I just roll my eyes. I think the worst is when they go into "brah" trying to sound even cooler...
Have you told him your worries about having the A's on the backburner for now? It doesn't hurt to keep checking in, making sure you're still keeping everything on the table.

It's hard, I'm fighting my urge to rugsweep the A's. I'm extremely conflict avoidant and hate talking about shit like this. But periodically we talk about it still. He says he still has lots of questions. About what, I don't know. He wanted to ask when I was sick (really sick) last weekend, but took one look at how pathetic and snotty I was and decided we'd talk about something else.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 1:40 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's almost 3pm and still only one text saying how sick he is puking and sorry for not calling/ texting last night.

I'm getting more in the way of updates from my sister than I am from him.

al;ksdfjals;dkfjlas;kdjfalk;sdj!!!!!!!!! This shit wouldn't fly if it were me pulling it, I must be the world's biggest pushover for tolerating it from him.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
beachbunny
♀ Member
Member # 35476
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, August 5th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just checking in-forcing myself actually.

Part of my fuckedupness is to isolate, really trying not to do that, but being sick makes me withdraw.

WH/BH acted out last night. He's a compulsive shopper & has been at an outdoor products trade show for past week. If one of the AP's had been there it would have been a trifecta of temptation. Being at that trade show was like an alcoholic being at a bar for him.

So instead of getting a free pair of shoes, he BOUGHT a pair of shoes. Now, it might not SEEM like a big deal to an outsider, but it was. We had an agreement that, due to his compulsive shopping, he would not spend more than $50 (at anytime ) unless it was for rent or utilities. He even gets "high" off grocery shopping. Anyway, it's not just that he bought something and broke our agreement, he didn't even consult with me.

Are you following why this is a problem?

I'm just tired. I'm not sure if he's intent on destroying everything systematically or is just soooo fucked up.

On the plus side, he called to acknowledge that and describe his thinking ("I deserved the shoes" "I'm entitled to be happy, etc...Sound familiar?). He also said he flirted with the idea of both lying to me AND minimizing/justifying the purchase...sound familiar, too?

I'm just beside myself.

I told him he needs to come up with weekly plan of how he is gonna recover & become healthy so he can have the kids back in his life because impulse buying doesn't show me clear judgement & healthy choices. I can't have the kids around that or starting to emulate that. I also asked him to come up with a contingency plan when he travels-loneliness & boredom trigger him & then he acts out.

I feel like I have 3 kids right now. It is a huge bummer & I'm depressed.

It's bad enough having to deal with the fact that WH/BH has been chasing some fucktard for years. I'm just tired & want to either be alone or with someone who respects me & loves me like I want & deserve.

I just needed to get that out there.

I've seen some great things in this thread that I want to pick up on later.


BS/WW: Me 43 WH/BH: Him 45 (badchoice)
Me: EA/PA 1997 DDay 5/99 (see profile)
Him: See his profile-15/16 y LTA
2DS:5 & 11 my loves
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequence of your choice.

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