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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
tired girl
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Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

rachelc,

Do not take the blame for his actions concerning his affairs. That was all about him and his poor coping mechanisms, just as yours were about you. You can understand the fact that he was a broken person when he did that just as you were, but you were not responsible for him making that horrible decision. That is something he has to own.

I think it is good that you are starting to own the fact that you are both in the same marriage here. Being in a madhatter situation puts each spouse in a unique position of understanding the pain that the other spouse is going through. Use that to be empathetic to what he is going through. I feel that this could be a stepping stone to your healing.

Undefinabl3,

I read your other thread. Your H is blameshifting and gaslighting you. And you are buying into it because of your WS status in your other marriage. Stop doing this. You know in your gut what he is doing is wrong. Draw your line in the sand and decide what yo want in your life and marriage and then demand that. If this is not acceptable to you then tell him and move forward from there. He will continue to do this as long as you allow this because of your guilt. We teach people how we want to be treated and you are teaching him that this is ok. You know that this is wrong.

pecia,

Welcome, sorry you are here. Is there any way for you to check your phone bill online?
Ask your H to see his phone, if he refuses this is a huge red flag and you will need to determine what your line in the sand is going to be with this.



Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Undefinabl3
♀ Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

you know what sucks as much as this...

I really have very few people that i can talk to physically. All my close friends know about my past, i am so afriad to say anything because i dont want to get the "what goes around comes around"...

And who wants to hear a mummbling WS lement about something like this.....


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
~Some days are better then others~

Posts: 1613 | Registered: Sep 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Undefinabl3,

Do you truly feel you deserve to be treated like this?


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Undefinabl3
♀ Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have my moments where I think that the Karma Bus never 'really' hit me, and it was just waiting for me.

I still have a bit of anger at myself for doing what i did to my first husband, the way i handled it.

I am a better person now. I have so much more respect for myself and my current relationship that I know that no matter what happens between DH and I now, an affair is never an option.

I just wonder if i did enough for the Karma bus to move on by you know?


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
~Some days are better then others~

Posts: 1613 | Registered: Sep 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 3:12 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Undefinabl3, why should your past entitle him to his wayward actions in the present? You have to let go of the karma bus concept. Your 1st M is over and you have done work to fix the broken part of you that led to your WS label. I hope you are still in IC, it helps to hear someone IRL with experience with this tell you what is right and wrong and when you deserve better from your spouse (and when you need to better for your spouse).

Please try to not let your past M carry into the present. Your H is being a jerk.

(((())))


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You have a conflict going on inside of yourself between I deserve to have this happen to me and knowing that having an affair is the wrong way to deal with issues. At some point you are going to have to decide which side of the fence you want to sit on. Right now, your inability to draw a line in the sand on this is giving him the room to do what he wants.

I think at some point you need to quit dragging your past around behind you and feeling like you need to be punished for it. Your punishment need not come in the form of allowing your current husband to have an affair and treat you like this. That is really not how this works.

It sounds to me like you still have some work to do in the shame area. Be careful with that. It can get you in trouble with wallowing. Stand up for yourself and how you should be treated.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pecia, I read your profile. Are you NC with your EAP now? For good? I think it would help your case if you were, regardless of what your H is doing.

He is definitely gas lighting you hardcore. Don't take his shit. Are y'all in IC or MC? Sounds like you really need it. And I think he is feeling very entitled, up to no good, and using your A and the threat of D as an excuse to get away with whatever he is up to. You said something about latest OW is a new officer. Military? LEO? Regardless, if he is having a workplace A, he is going to hide it like his life depends on it. I suggest sticking around and learning on SI for a while and then when the IT boards open for you, you can learn how to sleuth better. He is going to slip up in some way eventually if he is as far down the rabbit hole as he sounds.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
Undefinabl3
♀ Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sounds to me like you still have some work to do in the shame area. Be careful with that. It can get you in trouble with wallowing. Stand up for yourself and how you should be treated.

I have been trying. I have told DH that Tit for Tat doesnt work in my world.

A's are a different breed of hate that WS's dont deserve either.

I do have some shame, but I have a lot less of it then i have had in the past.

I am really lucky that right now i have my little SI voice in my head when we get into arguements....I dont feel so alone when we have an arguement and i am defending myself.


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
~Some days are better then others~

Posts: 1613 | Registered: Sep 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is good that you understand these things. How are you feeling about the fact that he is having these conversations and feels justified in having them. He obviously either doesn't see that he has crossed boundaries or doesn't care. Either one spells trouble.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
pecia
♀ New Member
Member # 36941
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, September 26th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NothngElseMattrs,

Just stumbled upon log in cell info today (accidentally kind of). I haven't had any contact with my EA since July 1. My H forced it on me, but now I am glad. The fog has lifted. Now I want to fix it, but he isn't cooperating. He is a police officer. The only admitted PA was a dispatcher. The other suspected (atleast EA, inappropriate, over texting - like 2000 a month, half naked photos) have all been other cops. After reviewing the cell records, I found out today that he has texted his previous PA a few times in the last few months. To beat all, I worked fri - mon (nurse) and my patient was a friend of the PA's family and she came ALL 4 days to visit the woman. She even asked me if I remembered who she was. Seriously?! (I said "of course I do" with a huge psycho smile on my face since there were a crowd of others around). In addition to all of this, there are other numbers I don't recognize on there and idk what the best way is to find out who's they are. Ugh. I want to scream.
P.S. No we aren't in IC or MC. He won't agree to it. Never would.

[This message edited by pecia at 8:49 PM, September 26th (Wednesday)]


Me: 34 mad hatter
Him: 35 mad hatter
Married 17 yrs
Kids: 18 yo step-son
Me: EA 2006 - 2012 off and on.
Him: PA 2009 - 2010, prob more I don't know about.
Multiple D-days.

Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2012
sorrowbecomesyou
♀ New Member
Member # 35139
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, September 30th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is going to sound selfish, hell screw that it is selfish. But I'd like to know exactly why and how my H can think of himself as the BS and me as the WS, when I had 3 PA's and he had 2 ONS's. He is constantly telling me that the two are different (excuse my rudeness but 'no shit Sherlock') but I still fail to understand why he's taking the BS side and acting like his ONS's weren't as deep a betrayal as my PA's. Especially when for the entire first year of our marriage I had to beg and plead for 5 freaking dollars, only to be turned down and made to feel bad for asking in the first place, while he dished out 200$ a pop for his hookers.


I cannot go back and change the past, I can only affect the future. I cannot take back what happened, I can only ensure that it never happens again.

Posts: 28 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Louisiana
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, October 1st (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sorrowbecomesyou,

You have several things going on in your post.

Being a madhatter we have to be careful that we don't get into comparing affairs. In doing so we start comparing who's pain is greater, and pain is relative. Early on when I found out about my H's EA this was something that I would engage in doing and I had to learn to stop. Bottom line, what I did to him was just as hurtful as what he did to me and that is where it ends.

The other issue you are discussing is a pre-A issue and many times these pre-A issues have to be put on the back burner for awhile until we get to the reasons why we chose to go outside of our M and broke our vows. I realize there may be a lot of resentment there on your side due to what he did, but focusing on his actions allows you to not focus on you and what you did. He needs to do the same as well.

Being a madhatter is a very difficult situation to be in, you are having to deal with the pain of what your partner has done, live with the damage to the M, try to fix yourself, and try to help support your partner all at the same time. It almost requires you to be superhuman.

I wish you luck in your journey.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
sorrowbecomesyou
♀ New Member
Member # 35139
Default  Posted: 1:19 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tiredgirl, thank you for your response. The main focus of my post was simply my frustration at being made to feel like THE badguy (or girl in my case) in this M. My H is, I think, subconsciously still in the belief that my betrayal was worse than his and that he is/was more hurt by my betrayal than I was by his.

An A, is an A. Bottom line is that trying to argue who's worse after infidelity has occurred on both sides is a wash. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes or beliefs here, but that is my honest opinion (not even my idea, MC's). But my H is still treating this like my betrayal was worse and less forgivable than his. I'm not still harboring anger or resentment (I've been through a lot of crap in my life. After so long you realize screwed up crap and mistakes for what they are. Potholes in the highway of life, that once in the rear view mirror don't deserve the dignity of a backward glance. Otherwise while you're looking behind you at the holes you've gone over cause you to swerve and crash into whatever is in front of you. Because the world keeps spinning, and the days keep passing by. You can either pull over and let a flat tire force you into a screeching halt, or you can get off your ass. Fix the tire, and keep driving. ) I don't, however, expect him to share that view. I do expect for him to understand that forgiveness doesn't mean it quits hurting. That just because I smile, and laugh and move forward through life, because no matter how bad it hurts, life stops for nothing. And I'm more interested in fixing the tire and moving forward than I am glaring in the rear view at the pothole that busted the tire in the first place. But all that doesn't change the fact that I worry that more potholes will be ahead, and wonder how many more tires that might need fixing. Either way, I'm sick of him comparing the two A's/ONS's. it is unfair and I'm tired of being emotionally beat up on.


I cannot go back and change the past, I can only affect the future. I cannot take back what happened, I can only ensure that it never happens again.

Posts: 28 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Louisiana
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:47 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In a way I can understand what you are trying to do, yet I think that in the long run it won't be good for either one of you. Rugsweeping what has happened and just moving forward probably won't be a good thing.

Him beating up on you emotionally is not a good thing either. Have you showed him remorse for what you did with breaking your vows? Do you feel that this might be what he is looking for from you? Are you looking for that from him?


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
LosferWords
♂ Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 1:47 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But my H is still treating this like my betrayal was worse and less forgivable than his.

SBY - I think this is probably because your H doesn't understand how much his A's hurt you. Your pain is filtered by his pain about your A's. As madhatters, you both need your platforms to speak and process things as both a BS and a WS. It's not about competition, but processing all of the separate hurts. You both have each of these roles.

There's been a few times when my wife has expressed her hurt about being betrayed by me when I was her boyfriend, and this voice in my head starts to say, "Yeah, but...", and then I have to interrupt myself and say, yeah, but I did do that. A betrayal is a betrayal is a betrayal. I better not throw any rocks, or else the whole house may come down.

There may be differences in how you have to help each other heal because of the individual consequences of each A, but either way, it's a betrayal.

As long as you are owning both parts, I think you are on the right track, and I hope your H can get there as well.

Hang in there!


Posts: 4549 | Registered: Dec 2010
NothngElseMattrs
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Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 6:05 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good words from LW and TG.

As a person in a technical field, I have to say I face this challenge too in a different way. My job is to quantify things, it's how my brain operates. So my urge, especially right after DDay, to somehow assign a hypothetical numerical value to our A's and his Sex Addiction was strong. But I fought it and continue to do so.

We aren't going to make it over this mountain by pointing fingers. Gotta work together. Some days are harder than others but we keep at it.

Also SBY I think you brought up a great point I've been chewing on lately.

forgiveness doesn't mean it quits hurting

I've been journaling about this recently.

Forgiveness is not the same as R and is not the same as trust. My H and I have said to each other that we forgive each other. Check. R? Still a work in progress, so no check quite yet there. And trust? That is going to be the last guy to show up to the party, but we need to get there.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
pecia
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Member # 36941
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is going to be long. It has been a rough few days. I guess I am just struggling with what I should do. I have written countless letters to my H. I tried to provide him with the details he wanted and express my concerns (since I think he is attempting to start at least verbal relationships with 3 women he works with – LEO). I managed to get into his phone bill and got names for the numbers he texts nonstop. He told me since I originally said my EA didn’t count as cheating because there was never anything physical (and I did say that while in extreme denial and the fog), that the definition of cheating is changed now so he isn’t doing anything wrong. He won’t ask me who I talk to and he won’t tell me anything either. Because contact with my EA was off and on for 6 yrs, he says my A was unforgivable. That I don’t love him and all I say are lies. He won’t move past it. But he has said that before. He also says every time I write him a letter that he won’t read it. When he writes back he always says it will be the last time he writes back. Yet he continues to do it. Now I am to the point that I know I have hurt him and he is actively trying to hurt me, but I still see tiny glints of hope. He won’t kiss me or do anything normal with me (eat dinner, shower, watch tv), but then sometimes when I least expect it he tackles me and kisses me and will have sex with me. I asked him if he hates me and wants a divorce, then why does he keep doing that. He says he doesn’t know. This is so hard. Part of me wants to text these women and maybe go punch them, part of me knows he is the instigator. Part of me wants to hit the road and stop trying. But then I know how much I love him so I stay and just try to wait him out. And let go of whatever he is trying to do to run me off. I think it is too soon to draw a line in the sand. I don’t feel like I have a right to yet since I am to blame. It is just so difficult. And our wedding anniversary is coming up in the next 4 weeks. I am sad because there won’t be a word of celebration for 16 years of hard roads. Ugh. Thanks for listening.


Me: 34 mad hatter
Him: 35 mad hatter
Married 17 yrs
Kids: 18 yo step-son
Me: EA 2006 - 2012 off and on.
Him: PA 2009 - 2010, prob more I don't know about.
Multiple D-days.

Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

pecia,

I understand you feeling like it is too soon to draw your line in the sand. That comes from a place of guilt, I did this so I have to give this person a chance as well. Only you can learn what your boundaries are with this. I think as you begin to get more healthy you will begin to see that what is happening is not a healthy dynamic.

As to the women he is texting, maybe you can just let them know that they are texting a married man and you are his wife and leave it at that. If your H resumes texting with them or others I would think that would give you an answer as to where he is at mentally right now.

Have you asked him about going to MC with you so that maybe some of this could be hashed out in MC? I sense he is incredibly angry at you for what you did and is picking a very unhealthy coping mechanism to deal with it. One that is very dangerous.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
pecia
♀ New Member
Member # 36941
Default  Posted: 11:34 PM, October 2nd (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tired girl,
I have thought about telling them that he is married, but they already know (there are 3, all single, all at his job - but I doubt they know about each other), and when he had his PA (also a co-worker), he made it out like we were soon to be divorced (not close, no sex, etc- which was untrue). Therefore they didn't feel as guilty as they would have otherwise. I feel like it would just make him more angry. He is starting to show some small moves towards coming back to me. He is atleast being intimate with me if nothing else. I know that I hurt him and his current actions are probably just to prove a point to me that an EA is still an affair and hurts just as bad as a PA. I have spent the better part of today reading "not just friends". I think it has gave me some perspective. I am hoping that I can wait him out. I am going to just try to love him out of his anger. I flip between guilt and anger and sadness. I cry when he leaves for work. Its pathetic. He doesn't have any interest in MC because he says he will "NEVER" get past what I have done. I don't want to push him. It is just very hard. I know that we can't just go back to normal. Normal was never that good anyway. I want to fix the problems this time. He rugswept it all for about 2 months. He has only been actively been in the outraged stage for about 1 month. Ugh. Marriage is a hell of a ride. Thanks for your validation


Me: 34 mad hatter
Him: 35 mad hatter
Married 17 yrs
Kids: 18 yo step-son
Me: EA 2006 - 2012 off and on.
Him: PA 2009 - 2010, prob more I don't know about.
Multiple D-days.

Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2012
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, October 3rd (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey Pecia-
Sorry to hear about the hard time you're having.
I cry when he leaves for work. Its pathetic.

Maybe instead of seeming needy towards him, you should take on a semi-180? Show him you are strong and working hard at fixing your WS and earning the "f" in fWS.

It sounds like he is cake eating and feeling entitled. These other women at work aren't asking for him to open up emotionally and do hard work to repair a M with him... they are just in it for the attention and whatever cheap validation comes with an intra-office A. On a very surface level, that sounds easy and appealing, so he is doing it because that sounds like a better deal to him.

If our souls were bank accounts, he is not working on refilling his bank account. He's at zero balance and just coasting around on credit and it will catch up at some point. You may or may not be able to wait around for it. You might have to bail him out. Or declare bankruptcy with him.

All you can control is you and the work you're doing on yourself. It sounds like you are taking great steps to fix yourself and make yourself a safe spouse again, so just keep up the good work there. Use your accomplishments there to give you the strength to keep going. Hang in there.

((pecia))


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
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