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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, February 6th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unagie,

I think you know that he is using what you did to justify what he did. This would mean that he is not remorseful on any level. So that comes down to what do you want to do about this? Are you ok with that?

Just a shadow,

Welcome. At this point you have three people in your M and you have to decide when you are not ok with that.

I would say get an IC ASAP, can you start looking into separation from him? What are your thoughts on divorce now?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Unagie
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 12:52 AM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you know that he is using what you did to justify what he did. This would mean that he is not remorseful on any level. So that comes down to what do you want to do about this? Are you ok with that?

I am not okay with that yet but I am getting there. I have to keep reminding myself it's only been 9 days since it all happened. Just 9 short days and not the weeks it has already felt like. Top that off with me wondering if I'm pregnant, I'm already late by 2 days but that doesn't mean anything I'm super irregular but yea it's stressing and overwhelming. I am becoming more and more accustomed to being able to say the words, you are strong, you are kind, you are important, you matter too. That chant makes a difference. As I get stronger then the decision while not easier will not be as daunting. I know he has not yet put in the work I'd like him to, we'll see how counseling goes on Friday, our first appointment. Thanks tired girl.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2395 | Registered: Oct 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:58 AM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Your welcome. I don't know how much you pay attention to JFO, or general. But the rule of thumb is to not do MC with an unremorseful spouse, it is considered detrimental to the BS's emotional well being. I can tell you that sitting in MC for two years with HLessons really got us no where. So keep that in mind. Try not to put all your eggs in that basket. I don't want you getting really disappointed if he doesn't do anything with it.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
octoberbaby
♀ New Member
Member # 37183
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, February 7th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We are madhatters. He wants to have a different set of rules. My affair lasted 3 months longer than his. Mine almost got to the physical point when i backed out and realized how stupid i was being. Mine was texting and meetups 4 times with the longest about 30 minutes. He only touched me once and i freaked. No sex. His affair was 1 month with a coworker that worked in the same room as him. A very small room. He was with her 12-14 hours a day. Had several lunches out with others. They texted,talked and rode to meetings together. He says nothing physical happened. He always has been a scorekeeper and of course my affair was worse according to him. 3 years have passed since the ending of my affair. One year has passed since the ending of his. The first year and a half i was pretty much held prisoner in my home. He destroyed my computer and phone. The only thing i did was read and eat. If i tried to go anywhere alone all hell would break loose. I did work a couple of days a week but he had a pi following me and watching. I love him so i just said whatever. I thought it was punishment that i deserved until i could get some trust back. Now that he has had an affair he thinks i should still have to follow the same rules but not him. He works away from home for months at a time. He goes out with the guys from time to time,shops when he gets ready to, pretty much does what he wants but doesnt think i should. I do go more now but he makes little snide comments. I am just really sick of it. I am not really sure of what i'm needing here. I guess i could use some advice of dealing with these double standards.

Posts: 9 | Registered: Oct 2012
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, February 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Octoberbaby, how would you like to deal with double standards?

Do you think your A was worse than his?


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 842 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
2edgesword
♀ New Member
Member # 38486
Default  Posted: 12:43 AM, February 20th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A new mad hatter just under a month from D day of my h affair. Here's my irk. He is still in denial that he had an A and states he was moving on after my A even though we still are together. I had the A first so I deserve what I got mantra. We are in mc, round 2 is tomorrow. My question, when you are the 1st WW does the other spouse generally believe they were justified in their A. Or do they ever come around and realize exactly how they betrayed also? I can't even get an I'm sorry. I'm depressed, hurt and getting resentful. Not a good combo when really trying to reconcile. I'm crying for validation of my pain but yet feel I have no right.


-D-day 1-23-12 -me Female 42(ws)-stayed together
2nd D-day 1-23-13- me (bs) this time. Attempting to reconcile, still together. M- 16 yrs w/ 2 teenage boys

It is what it is... thats all it is and nothing more.


Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: florida
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:10 AM, February 20th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Justification? Exactly, although that's an excuse. My fwh says he was so hurt by what I did he wasn't thinking straight. Again, justification. Do not take any responsibility for what he did...,

[This message edited by rachelc at 6:11 AM, February 20th (Wednesday)]


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Grief does not change you, Hazel. It reveals you.”


Posts: 3673 | Registered: Dec 2010
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, February 20th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

2es,

I realize that right now all you can see is your pain, and it is very real and valid. Do you need him to say he is sorry to validate that pain? What if he never does?

What happened in the one year time frame from when you had yours and he was discovered? What did you do to figure out why you had yours? I know you told us what he was doing during this time frame, but I am interested in what you were doing.

In madhatter situations it can be very easy to focus on what the other person has done to us and forget what we have done and that we need to focus on fixing ourselves as well.

Your H may never come around. That doesn't mean your pain is any less real just because he doesn't validate you. Learn how to validate your own pain and be ok with him not owning it right now. It sounds like he couldn't even really look at or deal with what you did, he just became destructive to himself. After all, that is what affairs are, they are self destructive. The person you harmed the most in this was you, and the person he hurt the most was him.

Put your focus back on fixing yourself and understanding that your H is in a great deal of pain , as are you. Maybe that can help you be patient in waiting for that apology. Madhatter situations are hard.

By the way, welcome to the madhatter board. I am sure you wish you didn't have to be here. Stick around, it can get better, if both people put the work in.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Unagie
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 5:15 PM, February 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Put your focus back on fixing yourself and understanding that your H is in a great deal of pain , as are you. Maybe that can help you be patient in waiting for that apology. Madhatter situations are hard.

^^^This is spades. It's hard to focus on you again when you are feeling the hurt of the betrayal but you must. I split my time 50/50. Sometimes I am focused on me and what I need and sometimes I am focused ont he betrayal. Even in out fights about his recent betrayal I am still apologizing and telling him how much I am still discovering about me and begging him to do the same. This is not an easy path and being a madhatter makes it a little more rocky.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2395 | Registered: Oct 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, February 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

begging him to do the same


Why are you doing this? He has shown you in actions what he wants to do. Why are you having such a hard time believing him?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Unagie
♀ Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, February 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tired girl

Because I'm still remembering the man he was instead of who he is showing me. He looks the same.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2395 | Registered: Oct 2012
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, February 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Live in today. He is not who he was. You are going to have to find some sort of self protection mode in there and stick with it. He is showing you who he is. There is a saying here, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. Put that on a sticky note so you can see it.

It isn't easy, but you need to move forward, you can't stay stuck in this place, it isn't good for you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
CheshCat
♀ Member
Member # 27546
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, February 23rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

2e

There are LOTS of ways BSs look at becoming WSMHs.

- Retaliation / Revenge... Knowing exactly how much it hurts, they want you to feel what they did. To know in your bones what the betrayal feels like.

- Self Defense... Totally different from above, this is the "justification" option. They need to protect themselves from what was done to them. Take power back. Not feel so helpless.

- Need an equal relationship... The moral high ground can be unbearable. In order for some to forgive, then need to be on equal footing. They can't look down on you their whole life. So they join you. In hopes of saving their relationship with you, by altering how they look at you.

- Want out of the relationship... They're done, but don't know how to say so.

- Divorce is expensive & takes ages... They'll get around to it. But in the meantime, they'll act as if.

- Desperate to feel loved... They need to feel real, human contact. With someone who doesn't make them want to throw up. Someone they can trust. Someone who hasn't hurt them.

- Uncomplicated... It makes the M more complicated, but things were already complicated. Layers and layers of hurt & betrayal & hard work & & & &. They're tired. Tired of working. Tired of fighting. Tired of hurting. They just want something, for themselves that is simple and easy and in no way involves you.

- and so many more.

They're all in RESPONSE TO the affair, but are all very different responses. From lashing out to trying to save their marriage to leaving to being done to needing love to, to, to... Etc.

And often combos of the above.

CC


"Another conversation killed awkwardly! Yes! Point to my side." - Chesh's Brother

Moi : BS MH 30mumble
Him : WS Abuse Adultery Addict Six-figure Sociopath = Aaass
... I picked a winner!
DDay - 2006 ad naseam
Divorced! 2013


Posts: 571 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: West Coast US
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, February 23rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Chesh Cat, let me get this straight, are you saying that part of the reason my BS went out and did this was because of what I did first?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3694 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
RemoursefulGirl
♀ Member
Member # 38170
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, February 24th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's interesting that the spouse who has the revenge affair is normally the one who doesn't want to talk about A stuff afterwards. All I want to do is talk about A details since it all just happened and he gets angry and defensive. He says that we're trying to move forward now and I keep bringing us 2 steps back by wanting to discuss details. I don't want to talk about the A and use it as a way to detach from him...I want to talk about the A to heal and move forward. Is that so wrong?


WW/BS-Me- 31
BS/WH- Him 31
DD - 12/2012

Status - Living separately since DD

Update: Now a mad-hatter. Bs decided to sleep with not just one but TWO girls in the 2 months we've been separated.


Posts: 198 | Registered: Jan 2013
watchtheskyy
♀ Member
Member # 34197
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, February 24th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi guys! I was wondering how you and your spouses became friends again after the A's. WH and I are so different about how we cope with things and that's no different when it comes to the things we expect from one another. We can barely communicate anything without it turning into a huge fight. MC isn't an option since WH works out of state so much. Having dates are next to impossible because none of our family will help with the kids.

Also, the whole "friend" thing is a big trigger in itself for me. WH and OW constantly talked about missing their best friend. I was honestly hurt and a bit jealous about it too. Thanks for any input!


Chesh-- This...wow!

Need an equal relationship... The moral high ground can be unbearable. In order for some to forgive, then need to be on equal footing. They can't look down on you their whole life. So they join you. In hopes of saving their relationship with you, by altering how they look at you.

WH always said that he felt like I was "perfect" and he didn't deserve me. After DDay 3 for me I told him about my ONS that happened between DDAY 1 and 2. This snapped him out of the fog and that's when he said he fell in love with me again. Even though it's been a huge source of hurt (My ONS), he says that it's made us equal and now he doesn't feel like I'm better than him. ...I almost felt like it was bull**** because I'd never heard of this before.


The first step to living the life you want is leaving the life you don't want.

Posts: 198 | Registered: Dec 2011
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, February 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If my husband needs to hurt me to be on equal ground I'm not interested. If he needs to have affairs to get some power I'm not interested...


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Grief does not change you, Hazel. It reveals you.”


Posts: 3673 | Registered: Dec 2010
hardlessons
♂ Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, February 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

- “Retaliation / Revenge...” Retaliate by sacrificing myself, my soul? Uh, no thank you.

- “Self Defense...” Choose to protect myself by committing soul suicide??? Uh, No thank you.

- “Need an equal relationship...” Bring myself to the bottom, for what? So, I can see eye to eye with someone while I am on my knees? Uh, no thank you

- “Want out of the relationship...” This is called a divorce and does not require you to devastate yourself and those around you…

- “Divorce is expensive & takes ages...” This is called an excuse to cake eat or play the victim, either way is bullshit.

- “Desperate to feel loved...” In the arms of a stranger?? That is not love, that is feeding a sick need to validate.

-“ Uncomplicated... They just want something, for themselves that is simple and easy and in no way involves you.” Really? What they want is to blow up their lives after it has already been blown up? No, just another excuse.

- “and so many more.” Just like the 7 before, this is also wrong. The only reason we have A’s is because we can’t cope to pain, conflict, life the right way. All the other stuff is just rationalization and justification to have a “revenge affair”. When IRL that is not what it is, it is a horrible choice we make because we don’t know how or want to make a good one.

There is a difference between an excuse and a choice. An excuse is bullshit, built on whatever is handy at the time.
A choice, at its core is the truth. i.e. “I chose to do this”. From that honest statement we can then start the process of fixing our shit. As long as you hold on to your excuses the longer you hold off being authentic with any chance of healing.. IMO


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 842 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 1:27 AM, February 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The moral high ground can be unbearable
boy can it ever...right along with the insufferable self righteous snow flakes that claim they're on it.

Funny thing about them...as you read more they keep revealing their "special" reasons for their shitty choices...pain, rejection, blame, blah blah blah it starts to look like what it is. Same entitled bullshit.

2e, that mess of a list are not RESPONSES to anything. They're reactions using the same toxic thought processes and coping skills we know don't fucking work.

He can be in denial all he wants. It doesn't really matter. You know what his choices were and you know very well how little they had to do with you.

You focus on you and your work. That's your future you're working toward whether with him or not. You've got some wise members helping you. You can do this


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
2edgesword
♀ New Member
Member # 38486
Default  Posted: 7:12 AM, February 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First of all, thank you all so much for the responses.you all hit the nail on the head in so many variables. I think I just found my new best blog!update round 2 of MC. We are both on completely different pages.in different phases. I told him we can take this as an opportunity to help each other heal and move forward towards reconciliation b/c we both were there the first time on the other end of the first A. Though I'm not very optimistic with our MC. When MC said he didn't understand what I meant by "I own 100% of my A, but I don't own his A. That's 100% his doing/choice he made, not mine" A big red warning flag went up, what MC doesn't get that?! 1 month out post 2nd d day and His still in violation of our no contact policy. I'm devastated. Though I've been there and know how hard it is to just stop txt/ talk to the OP but it has to be done. Cut n dry if any reconciliation is possible. It's usually weekly txt I find on cell phone statements. Usually the OP txt first. I haven't confronted H yet about it. In all honesty I can understand. But I'm about to blow a lid inside my soul holding it in.so far no remorse & no apology from H. Still feels justified in his A. He tries to act like everything is normal, like nothing happened. I've basically gotten over getting an apology but I still want/ need some validation.

I'm ready to say you've had your time to end it, if you can't stop contact with op and abide by our no contact agreement, then move out and let's be done with it. But this past couple weeks is the best we've gotten along in a very long time. I don't want to throw in the towel just yet and I'm worried he will use it as an out to leave but I can't blindly stand by either.


-D-day 1-23-12 -me Female 42(ws)-stayed together
2nd D-day 1-23-13- me (bs) this time. Attempting to reconcile, still together. M- 16 yrs w/ 2 teenage boys

It is what it is... thats all it is and nothing more.


Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: florida
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