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User Topic: MadHatter's Only Thread
Uneek
♀ Member
Member # 38416
Default  Posted: 1:47 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is my confession. I am a madhatter. Several years ago, I chose to engage in an inappropriate relationship with someone who was not my husband. I prefer to call it an EA, though if I'm truthful it's a PA as we did kiss.

I realized, quickly, how wrong it was and made a new choice. I told H how unhappy I was in our marriage, but I did not tell him I had been unfaithful.

When his EA came out, I confronted him and told him I understood what could have led him to make that choice since I, too, had mad the choice earlier in our marriage. I told him he could ask me anything he wanted, that I would be open and honest. I've brought it up several times but he's never asked so I've never offered more details.

The question is - should I be forcing details on him?

And thank you to everyone who posted about the guilt of feeling hurt by the other's A. I have extreme guilt over how much H's EA hurt me, because I know I did the same damn thing. Hypocrite, party of me.

[This message edited by Uneek at 2:07 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 114 | Registered: Feb 2013
ms521
♀ Member
Member # 12008
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TG wrote:
How are you with boundaries now?

This is a good question. WH and I talked a little bit about boundaries last night because clearly he has problems with establishing them, and it made me think about how I define my own.

I had a reunion weekend last year where WH couldn't come. I have two really good guy-friends from school who I maintain contact with: they are married, have kids, & I've met and respect their wives. I also value the friendship with these men, but our "friendship" is very limited: I don't seek anything more from them than occasional catch-up-tell-me-what-your-kid-is-up-to emails, a holiday card, and maybe a visit if they're in the area (spouses welcome always!). We don't discuss anything personal. Ever. But they are attractive men, and when I found out they were attending our reunion weekend without their wives, I went into this weird lock-down thing. I barely had anything to drink the entire weekend because I didn't want altered judgement at any time. I didn't go to the dance party and I left our class bonfire early to call my H, lock my bedroom door, and turn in with a book before anyone else. The only time I was really alone with any guy for an extended period was the 6am jog around campus I took with one of them (we invited several other people, but no takers). I had my headphones on the entire run, and when we got back to the dorm, I went my sweaty, separate way.

As another example, I connected on FB just prior to that reunion weekend with another old school friend who eventually revealed he was in the process of getting a D and is hurting pretty badly right now. He lives on the other side of the country, so it's not an immediate "threat" but I still put a little wall up. The old me, the one who likes to help everyone, believes it is NOT my job to help him. He has survived for 20+ years without my help, so I'm pretty confident that he has other friends who can help him. I do not need to nurse him through these wounds and listen to his problems. With a girlfriend, I would've said something like "I'm always here if you need to talk." With this guy, I made no offer. I am not here to help him or listen to his problems. I made the comment that I hope he was getting the help he needed, and I haven't heard from him since. Part of me wants to reach out just to know he's okay. But a bigger part of me doesn't even want to open that window - not even a crack. If he suddenly shows up on my doorstep, suicidal, with no one else to talk to, I will offer up WH's listening services!!

Anyway, I'm not sure how to "define" my boundaries, but looking back over that I guess I strive to maintain relationships with the opposite sex that are casual. ZERO intimacy. I wouldn't want WH to go to a dance party, or drink at a bonfire with members of the opposite sex, so I don't. I prefer spouses to come, but if they can't I'm on my guard. And my biggest one: I'm not open for "helping" out any member of the opposite sex who is not my H. (that's how I fell down my own slippery slope - OM needed my "help").

Should I be able to define them further than that? Do I need more?


Madhatters.
Me: FWW (STA 2002), now a BW.
Him: FWH (OW1: 2006-2007), now just WH (OW2: 2010-2013)

I will never stop trying... because when you find 'the one' you never give up. (Cal Weaver)


Posts: 429 | Registered: Sep 2006
ms521
♀ Member
Member # 12008
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uneek - I'm trying to think of a thoughtful answer to the question of whether or not details should be "forced" on someone. I had a similar experience when I discovered OW1, so I know the urge to confess and openly answer every question that comes from a desire not to be "hypocritical"... but at the same time, if your husband is still in a fog over this OW (and still in denial that an EA is really another version of an A), then will he really care about the details, or will they just justify his actions in his mind (that how it was for us the first time around).

Someone else might be more qualified (ie: further along a successful healing process than I am), but my knee-jerk reaction is that details probably don't need to be forced, especially on a partner who's not yet ready to listen and own what's really going on. If he's asking questions, then obviously you need to be honest, but if he's not asking, I'm not sure what the answer is.

Good for you, though, for "owning" that kiss. What I've learned over the years at SI is that there really is no moving forward if you're hiding sh** in your own past.


Madhatters.
Me: FWW (STA 2002), now a BW.
Him: FWH (OW1: 2006-2007), now just WH (OW2: 2010-2013)

I will never stop trying... because when you find 'the one' you never give up. (Cal Weaver)


Posts: 429 | Registered: Sep 2006
windowsnotwalls
♀ Member
Member # 36983
Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Anyone have suggestions for reducing home triggers other than moving?

Latest big blow out was last night over my place. Last August, MrWNW had me move out. I bought a trailer, still another 11mos to pay on this place. Beginning of Sept, I started seeing someone. That person was here twice. When MrWNW and I R'd, I have stuck to NC with OM ever since, dropped him like a hat. Since then, a significant amount of our time is spent at my place. (I have a daughter with autism, she needs the stability and routine of one place, and she has school an hour from here, bus picks her up here, obviously). Last night MrWNW said he was going to start staying at his place during the week, and only here every other weekend when he didn't have his kids because all he does is think of me fucking OM here....and that if I'd see it from his eyes, he'd see he was doing this for us, that I'd find him missing me more.

Well, I went off the deep end. I was LIVID. Our first split was Dec 2010, and just days later, he not only had some 22yr old fluesy in my bed but was posting pics of him and friends with her on my porch. There were dozens of other women that year, I'd find toiletries by the shower, their books, washed their fkn clothes accidentally they had left in the laundry. Yet during our false R, he asked me to move "home", and I moved right back to trigger station. There are the ghosts of a dozen naked women in his place (I don't consider it mine anymore and haven't since August last year). Yet, I NEVER say anything about that. I just deal with it. I've accepted this is the best we can do for now. I try to make this place his as much as possible. No one else has ever had "a place" here. HIS clothes hang in the closet, HIS toiletries in the bathroom, HIS computer stuff, and it's always right where he left it. He has an issue with the triggers here and he then made a unilateral decision (not just bring it up as a discussion) that the solution would be he'd spend 26 nights a month alone in the house he lied to me so many times of just "fell asleep" or that's right across the street from the homewrecking hooker that he cheated on me with for 3mos.

Of course the ideal solution is start over, sell both of his houses, sell this one, find our own place. Unfortunately, financially, that's at least a year away. I asked him what more I can do to make this place his, but he doesn't know. Is there anyone that's had to do this and found a way? I truly hate this place being a trigger for him, but I don't know how to fix that.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I do go to his place often, when my daughter is in school, we'll spend the day there. He was all for that still continuing, which to me reduced me to nothing but a daily booty call over there. When he has his kids, he stays there, so they have their beds...and the rest of the time, he's stayed here. It's been hard for me to adjust even to that, because it feels like half a life. I don't see me being willing to accept even less.

[This message edited by windowsnotwalls at 8:42 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


"She stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way, she adjusted her sails" (Elizabeth Edwards).
http://youtu.be/62oby83NtGw
Forever Conditionally Detached

Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Pittsburgh, PA
Uneek
♀ Member
Member # 38416
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, March 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ms, that's my thought as well. H has owned that his was an EA. He believes it was one sided (him only), though I'm not sure if I agree with that. But, I wasn't in their relationship, I barely knew she existed, so what do I know. I don't think he's in the fog, I just think he's a very different person from me. He was raised by the king and queen of rugsweeping. OMG, every little family conflict they've ever had has been rug swept. So we're dealing with his A because of my need to do so, but perhaps he just doesn't feel the need to deal with mine? Or because it's so old he doesn't think it's an issue? Or, because he's so much more relaxed than me that he figures I've dealt with it and moved on so he should do. I really have no idea.

Part of me is relieved that we don't have to talk about it. He does not know about the kiss and I dread telling him. On the other hand, I feel like he deserves to know - but if he doesn't want to, who am I for forcing it on him? Wouldn't that just make him feel worse?

In the meantime, I deal with the guilt of "how do I deserve to be this hurt when I did the same thing, only worse?" Oy. This "life" stuff is hard.

WNW, are you in therapy? Your situation really sounds like something you should talk about in counseling. I'm new to all this, but have you tried telling him that you spending days there but him not coming to your place makes you feel like a booty call? He may just not see it from your perspective.

As far as making it more his place, can you get new furniture? Paint? Maybe rearrange the furnitre? New decor, like bed linens and throw pillows? Hang some art he likes?

[This message edited by Uneek at 11:28 AM, March 27th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 114 | Registered: Feb 2013
windowsnotwalls
♀ Member
Member # 36983
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just completely disregard my victim's rant earlier this week. I had an awakening of sorts yesterday. When I went back through that conversation, he was truly, truly non-aggressive, trying to calm me, and I was just pissed. I've done that a ton to him over the past several months. I'm owning my own shit today, and it's a shameful, painful day for me, but I feel more "real" than any day I can remember over the past few years. It's a good day.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=491714


"She stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way, she adjusted her sails" (Elizabeth Edwards).
http://youtu.be/62oby83NtGw
Forever Conditionally Detached

Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Pittsburgh, PA
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, March 31st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ugh - got into a discussion. He said what I did was more severe than what he did and he would gladly trade for what I did...
and that is the reason that my AP and wife moved, that I had sex and that is the reason why we don't need to move - fWH didn't have sex.

After seeing OW twice this weekend, I am triggering badly...

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:35 AM, March 31st (Sunday)]


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3634 | Registered: Dec 2010
ms521
♀ Member
Member # 12008
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rachel - he said he would trade places with you in the idea that what you did is worse because you had sex and he didn't? Does he WANT to be the one who did "more" cheating? (I know we're not supposed to compare, but since he obviously is comparing, I'm trying to understand where it's coming from). For what it's worth, my husband has done way "more" cheating on me over the course of our M and I wouldn't trade places with him at all. Do you think your WH feel like he's "owed" something because you had sex in your affair and he didn't?


Madhatters.
Me: FWW (STA 2002), now a BW.
Him: FWH (OW1: 2006-2007), now just WH (OW2: 2010-2013)

I will never stop trying... because when you find 'the one' you never give up. (Cal Weaver)


Posts: 429 | Registered: Sep 2006
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:58 PM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ms521 - I hope not.
what he doesn't remember - they quit their jobs and moved before OM's wife knew the truth and thought it was an EA...

at any rate, I've decided that he is asking a lot of me to live here and occasionally see the woman I saw him on top of. There are limits...

my friend just came in and said, "life isn't fair" and "make a choice to move on."

whatever.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3634 | Registered: Dec 2010
KBeguile
♂ Member
Member # 38348
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, April 2nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My profile/sig/story doesn't list it, but I recently realized that I'm a Madhatter. Mind if I come in and watch/participate?


Me: fWS 32
Her: BS 35 (HeartInADustpan)
DS: 4yo
M: 7 years
DDays: 2012/11/14, 2013/02/05, 2013/03/09
-
"Everything that happens now is happening 'now.'"
"What happened to 'then'?"
"We passed 'then.'"

Posts: 735 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: St. Louis
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

KB,

That isn't an issue, do you want to share why you feel you are a madhatter?

ms,

In response to your earlier post, it sounds like you have done some good work where your boundaries are concerned. How about your H?

WnW,

I have read your post here and in wayward, how are you doing today?


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
windowsnotwalls
♀ Member
Member # 36983
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WnW,

I have read your post here and in wayward, how are you doing today?

Doing better today. Been slowly reading a book by Susan Anderson....slowly more because I'm taking time to apply things rather than flying through just for the information.

Been staying active on SI, whether it was a "crazy" pissed off day, a calm thoughtful day, or even a good day.

Went to the dr and was given an AD script last week.

Called today to set up IC.

The procedure to figure out if I have my mother's cancer is tomorrow at 11:30am. Good support for that. My dad and neighbor are going with me / staying with the kids. Neighbor took the kids tonight, made them dinner, keeping them while mommy's sick.

MrWNW is talking to the VA to set up MC for us.

We've made some generalized plans for at least two outings a week together, no kids, away from either of the houses.

Oh and youngest DS5 taught himself to ride no training wheels yesterday on neighbor friend's bike. Took his off today! Very cool experience.

Still not working, but I am ok with that. There will always be clients (I'm in the 2nd fastest demand growing industry for freelance), and right now I need to regroup. I project probably returning to work next week or no later than week after.

[This message edited by windowsnotwalls at 6:15 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday)]


"She stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way, she adjusted her sails" (Elizabeth Edwards).
http://youtu.be/62oby83NtGw
Forever Conditionally Detached

Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Pittsburgh, PA
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:45 PM, April 2nd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sounds like you are starting to get your head together a bit more. This is good. Good luck with your procedure, let us know how you are doing when you get back.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
KBeguile
♂ Member
Member # 38348
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tiredgirl,

KB,

That isn't an issue, do you want to share why you feel you are a madhatter?

Heart didn't do it to me. She never would, but I was betrayed by the first girl I ever felt I truly loved -- found out she had cheated on me with three different guys while we were dating.

After that, we spent parts of the summer after graduation together, re-building our relationship (or so I thought), only to have it all fall to pieces in the Fall when we went to different (though relatively close) schools. I tried killing myself three times that year.

To this day, there are still places on the UIUC campus that I can't think about or even consider going to, because they will trigger me.


Me: fWS 32
Her: BS 35 (HeartInADustpan)
DS: 4yo
M: 7 years
DDays: 2012/11/14, 2013/02/05, 2013/03/09
-
"Everything that happens now is happening 'now.'"
"What happened to 'then'?"
"We passed 'then.'"

Posts: 735 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: St. Louis
ms521
♀ Member
Member # 12008
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In response to your earlier post, it sounds like you have done some good work where your boundaries are concerned. How about your H?

TG - I *think* WH is working on figuring out his boundaries, but he might be hard pressed to define them yet. He joined SI and I think he's lurked a little and done some reading, but he hasn't posted anything yet. I wish he would. I wish he'd start a thread on Wayward or something asking for others to chime in about boundary issues. I'm struggling to help because I had issues with our marriage when I cheated. He claims he has none, which I actually believe because we've been so freakin' happy! Maybe he's a closet cake-eater, or whatever the name is for someone who cheats just because they have the opportunity?

Rachel - I have a question: would moving solve the greater problem of his infidelity? I'm asking because I keep thinking about my WH leaving his job (in fact, it seems a job offer from another company could be imminent!). WH confessed to me that he feels *obligated* to take a new job offer because he knows how much it bothers me that he works with OW, but he's not sure he'd like this new job or the company. I'll be honest - there's part of me that feels like he should suck it up (HE's the one who made the choice to screw a coworker, so frankly his comfort isn't my top priority right now). However, I don't believe that switching jobs would really be a "fix" because there will be other women at the new place. We don't cheat because of where we work or where we live - we cheat because we're weak in the face of opportunity. I would love to think that OW2 would be the last opportunity for WH, but she won't be. WH is goodlooking, kind, and successful... there will always be some woman ready to flatter him for his attention. Moving to a new office won't change any of that.

Will moving to a new town change anything for you two? Would it be a step forward together, or would it be running away from the problem? Is there a possibility that you'd always be reminded that you had to move because of the affair? Is it something you *need* to heal from this, or is it just something you want because it would make it easier not to have to worry about crossing OW's path? Do you really want to move, or do you just want to see that he's willing to move for you?

Yikes - I guess that's more than one question!


Madhatters.
Me: FWW (STA 2002), now a BW.
Him: FWH (OW1: 2006-2007), now just WH (OW2: 2010-2013)

I will never stop trying... because when you find 'the one' you never give up. (Cal Weaver)


Posts: 429 | Registered: Sep 2006
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

last night he said it would be very tough for him to take a new job because his job is based on connections and we've lived here for 20 years and he's 50...
I didn't say anything but I thought to myself, "tough? tough? it's tough living here wondering if theyre going to be around a corner somewhere... and I didn't do this cheating."

No, it wouldn't help to move.
I'm sitting with the fact that my pain is my responsibility. not his. I would LOVE to blame him for me being in pain but the fact is, he is not. if I follow the thought of why I am bothered by these women it goes all the way back to my childhood and my Dad leaving and me feeling that I'm not worthy. Seeing them reminds me that for a while, he didn't see me as worthy. But that's a false belief. The only thing it meant was that he was sick/broken - and I'm not responsible for that.
It still hurts though. and me taking responisbility for my own pain is a very uncomfortable feeling for me.

[This message edited by rachelc at 11:50 AM, April 3rd (Wednesday)]


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3634 | Registered: Dec 2010
ms521
♀ Member
Member # 12008
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think you're right in taking responsibility for your pain, but doesn't he have a responsibility to help you through it? I can hear all the things you're doing, but what's HE doing??


Madhatters.
Me: FWW (STA 2002), now a BW.
Him: FWH (OW1: 2006-2007), now just WH (OW2: 2010-2013)

I will never stop trying... because when you find 'the one' you never give up. (Cal Weaver)


Posts: 429 | Registered: Sep 2006
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, April 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ms - when I see them he holds me and tells me he's sorry. what else can he do? I go for a walk, have my little 15 minute pity party and then go about my day.
what else can I do if I want to be married to him?


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3634 | Registered: Dec 2010
authenticnow
♀ Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 3:20 PM, April 8th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kbeguile,

By SI definition you are not a madhatter. A madhatter is someone who is a BS and a WS in the current relationship.

This thread is for madhatters only.

Thanks,
AN


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 34684 | Registered: Sep 2007
grapefruit
♀ Member
Member # 27090
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, April 17th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all,

I just posted in the Wayward Side forum, but I thought I'd post here too since I am a MadHatter. Here's my story again ...

Last night, I told my husband about all my infidelities throughout our marriage. There have been five men, two of whom I had a full-blown EA/PA with, and the other three I had a PA with (one I started to have sex with but stopped, and the other two I didn't have sex with but there was sexual behaviour). He knows all but one of the people involved, and two he considered friends. He is understandably very hurt and upset.
We have been together for nearly 15 years and married for nearly 10. The first time was over 7 years ago, and the last time was over 4 years ago. I told him about one of them at the time. One of the EAs came out a few weeks ago, and the rest last night.

I guess I should also say that eight weeks ago I found out my husband was having a PA (which he stopped as soon as I discovered it). After daily admissions (TT), we realised after a week that he is a SA (sex addict). There have been prostitutes (before we were married and after), pornography, adult chat sites, and meeting up with people for sex. He has never had an EA (although he had ongoing contact with some of them). He has been in therapy since and has been attending SA meetings.

I am deeply deeply ashamed of my behaviour. I desperately want our relationship to work and he does (did?), too. I've started with a new therapist, and we have had one MC session together. We have more booked in, but not until May.

I used the usual justifications for not telling previously - that I would hurt him, that it would be awkward knowing it was friends, that they were my issues to deal with and not his - but basically I was a coward and didn't want to face up to it. I thought it would feel better now that it's all out there (that wasn't a motivation for telling) but I just feel hideous. I have only just realised that there must have been periods of huge disconnection in our marriage. That is not an excuse, but I just wish I'd seen it at the time and had the courage to confront him rather than turning outward to find emotional intimacy.

Thanks for reading my story. Any advice or feedback is welcome.


FWW / BS (me)
FWH / BS (him)
In R ...

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