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User Topic: Long Term Affair - Part 29
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Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Repost from General--didn't know this place existed--Guess I get to be member...

I understand that betrayal is betrayal and I am not trying to downplay anyone's tragedy, buy why I am wishing I could be so lucky as to find that my WH was only in a relationship for a year, a few months, a ONS would be unbelievably grand!
How do could I never have suspected in 5 years? When I was in the hospital after giving birth to our 2nd child was he really "eating in the cafeteria" at the hospital? When we went on our family vacation to the beach, was he really just "outside smoking?" How could he stand to have me come to his office & talk to the OW? How in all this time could he NEVER even come close to telling me? NEVER stop?
Why wasn't he strong enough to stop? Sometimes I honestly wish I hadn't found out. Couldn't he have stopped & never told me?

He says he doesn't care a single bit for her, never did. But I remember him saying once "___ works so hard, and she barely makes anything. She deserves a raise." For what, managing to get her work done while giving you blow jobs & fucking you? While emailing you vulgar "what I would do to you if you were here..." when she is on the clock?

I am 6 months out & today I am just really feeling this...mostly I guess because I am not getting answers or at least the ones I believe.

How can you engage in such graphic personal fantasies & photos without having more of an emotional attachment? Granted, I never found anything to support an emotional anything, but he was master of the permanent delete and that statement haunts me...

When I ask & ask over the last months, he says he knows I want him to say, but he never loved her. He really wouldn't have missed her at all if she left forever. He says that is true for the entire 5 years...

When I ask for details & a timeline, he can give me a progression of talking, flirting, a kiss then nothing, then her telling him he didn't have to avoid her, to the other...says it was only sex 2x the whole time, mostly bjs & the email stuff, but can't tell me why just 2x? Doesn't know, but is just adamant that it was just twice. Why didn't he keep having sex? I want to bombard him with possible answers, but don't cause I don't want him to take one as an easy out...

Thanks for listening. I guess I know that we all have some of these questions, but I have more time to look back over I think than most and it is making me crazy cause 5 years is so long ago, piecing things together is hard

Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I wish I had good answers to your questions, but unfortunately I think with an LTA it is often impossible to get the "whole truth." Even with a remorseful spouse who wants to tell you everything there is too much time to span.

Unlike many at SI, I did not insist fWH do a timeline. I know when the PA started. He claims that he did not know it was an EA before that, but can't remember when he started talking to her about personal things, except that it was while I was pregnant, or maybe before. I don't really need to know details about sexual stuff, though I assume nothing was off limits. I know he said he loved her and wanted to marry her, but he claims they never made plans to leave their spouses. He admits to talking about how long it would take their families to accept it. No matter what, it is a lot to deal with, and for me personally I have had to let go of needing to know everything, because I don't believe I could ever be satisfied, and I don't have the energy.

That being said, it sounds like your WH's A, even though it was so long, had clearer boundaries in terms of where and when. Do you think a polygraph would help? I have considered this, just to make sure I am comfortable with all the big details, but have not gone through with it.

How is your WH otherwise? Is he remorseful? Is he sensitive to your pain? 6 months is not a long time in R and I think an LTA requires more time, but it can and will get better if you are both rebuilding.

There are some seriously wise people here in the LTA tribe and I'm sure you'll get more perspectives that will help you. For now, welcome and keep posting.

Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1682 | Registered: Nov 2010
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Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Manybrokenpieces...I responded to you in general too. I feel for you so much. This is inredibly difficult. Is your gut telling you you don't know everything? I mentioned in the other forum that I ended up having to contact the ow for the truth...I knew deep down my wh was lying. I am finally at a place where I feel like I know what I need to be in true R now. I don't think you can truly start to heal if you don't feel like you know everything you want to know. Is your wh remorseful? Is he in ic too? Our stories are sooo similar. Ow was an employee of my wh and I had the pleasure of her company a couple of times before I knew. She was around my kids several times! The thought makes me want to come out of my skin. But my wh still swears it was all about him...not her and not even me. He was having his ego stroked and living a fantasy. None of it was real. I am so sorry you are here and dealing with this. But you aren't alone.

Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 468 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH turned over the password to his work email and facebook. He even made an effort in the last few weeks to post pictures of us--they were never there before--which captions like "my wonderful wife" etc. The hotmail address he had been using is dead. To be honest, I only think he deactivated it because he knew I was watching it & was afraid something else I didn't know about would come through. I handled confrontation all wrong & although I wanted to watch things & gather more evidence, I just couldn't hold it in. Nonetheless, that one is gone.
I want to track his phone, but I am afraid that if I sign up for it, somehow AT&T will send a message to the phone & he will know which defeats the point...anyone know how that works?
I don't think he has another phone...I have to just believe he doesn't have another email account...I don't have any reason to think he is still doing anything. We changed his phone number so OW couldn't call...No Contact at all since August except for required work stuff that others have been copied on as far as I know...
He doesn't want to do IC which bothers me. He appears truly remorseful, transparent, acknowledges the pain he caused.
I feel he doesn't want to answer questions about the A. He always asks how it will help me. I really think he is afraid the real truth will send me running. I am imagining some truly nasty sexual encounters that he is ashamed about discussing.

On the surface, it appears he is doing everything right. We have had a lapse in marriage counseling due to just not being able to make it work with schedules, and are to resume on 10-22-12. He was never trying to avoid MC, but neither one of us have been "talk about your feelings" type people and this is hard stuff. This is the primary reason I think we are here now. If we had talked; if I had asked more probing questions, would this have been preventable? Would it have ended sooner if not?

I find it easier to write things down in a journal, especially when the 3 AM questions keep me from sleeping. I invited him to do the same last week, but he hasn't. I think a part of me is resenting this. Also, he hasn't read Not Just Friends yet which I asked him to. He has a book mark in it, but he is just not getting through it. I told him that, but he says he really doesn't have time. He has time to play Playstation I definitely resent this...

I dunno...

Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Just wanted to let you know that my FWH said the same thing about his 5 yr LTA with a married serial cheater co-worker.
He had much more than just a few sexual encounters with her over the 5 yrs but he insists that he never loved her.

He has admitted to tons of very embarrassing details having to do with the LTA but insists that there was no love involved.
Over the last 5 and 1/2 yrs since d-day has gotten sober, gone to AA, IC, MC and Christian counseling with a minister.
He has been open about transparent.
He gave me a detailed timeline of their sexcapades.

And immediately after d-day he went NC with the MOW and has never contacted her.

She has never contacted him either.
And we were separated for 6 months and she knew it-they had the perfect opportunity to re-kindle this sick twisted affair but never did.

I do believe that in some cases the affair can be purely a sick sexual ego massage.

It was hard for me to understand this at first.

I was trying to understand the LTA through my eyes-imagining that they thought like I did.

But, I soon realized that nothing about the LTA was like anything that I would ever have been involved in.

It also involved tons of graphic sexual emails -really insane stuff considering these were 2 middle aged nerdy corporate co-workers but apparently that was this MOW's specialty.

As she described it later to another male co-worker...she thought they were just 'having fun'.
This was after she was told that I kicked him out and felt that she had destroyed my marriage!
So, for what it's worth..I just wanted you to know that a 5 yr LTA can be just about sex.

Now, about your WH's reluctance to discuss the LTA or go to IC or read 'Not Just Friends'-IMHO he should be extremely grateful that you are giving him another chance and he should be willing to comply with these requests.

IMHO ending the affair is not enough.
The WS has to figure out how they allowed themselves to make such horrible decisions for such a long time, why they had such toxic thinking and how they are going to change this about themselves.

Like an's not enough to stop drinking...that's called a 'dry drunk'. The alcoholic has to change his toxic way of thinking in order to live a sober life again.

Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA

Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
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Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, October 13th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What about a LTA for 37 yrs? I was told that it was just sex too. For 37 yrs?? I'm having a hard time with that one. My WH is a SA and is in counseling now and in MC I asked why this ow for 36 yrs? According to our mc (associated with the SA program) that this could happen. That she is just as sick as he is. That for whatever reason they fed off each other. My WH said that for the past
10 years it's been more like just she needed, as he says, a "daddy". She's 63 yrs old for chrissakes!
I don't buy it. It had to be more than just sex. In her emails she talked about being close to him and wishing she see him more and thinking about when they went here or there. Etc, etc. That doesn't sound like just sex to me. My WH I think needs to be needed. And the sicker these skanks are the better. All his LTA's and there are others need something, whether it's advice, a shoulder to cry on, a hand to hold while they have a surgical procedure( yes, he took her to her procedure and spent the day with her!) Or money,Mr. Wonderful was there. Yet, when I needed him and his support he was too busy.
So, yes I have been told it was just sex and I do believe with all the escorts he paid for it was. But, my ques. To him was if it was just sex why keep a 37 yr relationship? Why not just escorts? He doesn't have am answer. This ow had her frantic claws in him and he was there to save the day.
My WH also had a 7 yr A with a retired escort. She didn't care about him she just used him and took whatever he gave her, gifts, money.etc. Talk about a real skank.
But for some reason I'm not as upset, if that's the right word, about her. Maybe because I could see on the emails that it was all about her and she didn't really care about him.
Anyway, whatever it was I have come to the realization that she is just as fractured as he is. And part of me would like to say "you bother deserve each other". But, at this point there's no contact and let's just keep it that way.

Me- BS (63)
Him-WS (63)
M- 42 yrs
dday#1 11/09, Dday #2 10/11 and many since
P.A.'s - too many to count
LTA's too many to count (one for 37 yrs)
escorts etc- way too many to count.
Broken heart- too many times to count.
R- Getting bet

Posts: 414 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
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Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, October 14th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi all,

It has been too long since I have posted. I keep up on your posts but do not have too much to add.

I see a lot of courage in those posting here. Dealing with and facing head on the immense betraal and grief due to their WS A.

A wide range of responses by WS to heal the damage they caused to their BS. But ultimately, it is just the BS, and it is within us, to heal ourselves.

Take care everyone,


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, October 14th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

See the Investigative Tips thread.


BH (me, 50)
WS (her, 48)
3 wonderful teens
Heading for Happiness

Posts: 401 | Registered: Sep 2011
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Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, October 14th (Sunday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi manybrokenpieces, welcome to our gentle corner of SI. As you can see, this is a talkative group and that is because we have a lot to talk about trying to wrap our heads round what our WS’s have done!

I don’t have time to read your profile, so I’ll answer here and come back tomorrow (it’s evening in the UK)

says it was only sex 2x the whole time, mostly bjs & the email stuff, but can't tell me why just 2x? Doesn't know, but is just adamant that it was just twice. Why didn't he keep having sex?
Because it was gratification only. Full sex could mean emotional involvement. Full sex at the office would also mean someone walking in. I don’t think you can confirm or disprove what he has said, your inner feelings are telling you it is more. That’s a tough one.

I needed a timeline because WH conducted his affair away from home and work. MOW was for hotels and away weekends and longer sojourns. So when I found out he had massively minimised, I wanted to know where, when and how often. Of course he wasn’t going to remember the whole five years, but he gave me some details. It was like pulling teeth with pliers. In the end I gave him a list of dates and events and stuff that was going on in our lives – anniversaries, special birthdays, holidays, short breaks, changes of job, etc. Even then, it took him over a month to get it back to me. I didn’t let it go, I kept telling him I expected it.

Like cdmommy, WH proposed to MOW although they had not planned to leave their spouses until the time was right. He said it was what MOW wanted to hear, so that’s why he said it. He did love her, there was no doubt about that, but there wasn’t enough to sustain it. Once it had got to a certain point, it couldn’t grow or move to the next stage without them leaving their spouses. WH wasn’t going to do that because when the “relationship” reached that point, he realised he didn’t want it after all.

Like teach, I contacted MOW because I was sick of fWH not giving me the truth. We met and spoke for a couple of hours. I got more from her than I did from fWH in a lot of ways.

I want to track his phone, but I am afraid that if I sign up for it, somehow AT&T will send a message to the phone & he will know which defeats the point...anyone know how that works?
When you’ve had 50+ posts, you will be able to see and post in Investigative Tips. We can’t tell you here until you are “paid up” as it were.

Also, he hasn't read Not Just Friends yet which I asked him to. He has a book mark in it, but he is just not getting through it. I told him that, but he says he really doesn't have time.
Yes he does. He just doesn’t want to deal with it. There is a short e-book I got my fWH to read. It’s 150-odd pages in large type. Infidelity Crisis – How to gain forgiveness and respect after your affair. Here’s the link. The download is near the bottom,

The LTA is a different game altogether. It is a complete double life. Please read my post to traditoperanni on the previous page. It was more real than other affairs – the STA that burns out, the ONS opportunity, the “fling”, the EA – because they incorporate it into their lives, it becomes part of their lives. But they carry this dark secret for so long that it eats away at their soul. They have this side to them that they know is wrong and unhealthy but they have got themselves in a situation they don’t know how to get out of without wrecking the other part of their lives – the happier side, the one they don’t want to lose. So they carry on and do nothing.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
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Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, October 15th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but I am afraid that if I sign up for it, somehow AT&T will send a message to the phone & he will know which defeats the point

My experience with ATT is that text messages are periodically sent informing the person they are being tracked. If you are trying to snoop and catch someone this is not so good. If you are using tracking to build trust and verify a FWS is where he or she says they are it is OK. It is important that with GPS tracking the person always have their phone with them. If the phone sits at work for 2 hours at lunch, I would call to verify that she was at work and not her phone in a drawer and her somewhere else.

manybrokenpieces, I will agree that LTAs often have more complications than shorter A's. Not just the shear amount of time and things done in that time, but the personality of the WS him or herself. A healthy person does not make a mistake and have a 2+ year long A. I believe a LTA requires something wrong with the WS to sustain it for so long. Some attachment disorder, intimacy issue, NPD, BPD, something. This means that even after healing from all of the A-crap, you are still left with a person who struggles to have a healthy emotionally intimate and honest relationship.

If we had talked; if I had asked more probing questions, would this have been preventable? Would it have ended sooner if not?

Probably not.

In the spring of 2007 I confronted FWW accusing her of having an A (she was). She and a well-meaning friend convinced me it was my imagination and jealousy. She did tell me I was broken and she was ready to leave the M. I went to IC for 6 months. Worked on me. She was invited to IC, but would not come. I got better, and re-engaged in the M. I really tried to step up my game. During this whole time, she started up her A with last OM.

UKgirl, I am so sorry you continue to be harassed with the LinkedIn thing from OW.


FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Member # 35847
Default  Posted: 8:44 PM, October 15th (Monday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ukgirl, i just wanted to say thank you. After all the reading and posting and searching your response has hit the nail on the head for my situation.

I could not for the life of me figure out why 6 years and keep doing it with him knowing how wrong it is. XWH is broken emotionally and mentally and adding alcohol was his perfect storm. With some help with this wonderful site I have realized that I cant fix him nor is it my job to. Divorcing him was my only option because staying would have been too much for me to deal with and not healthy for me or my kids. Only he can fix himself. Will he ever? I dont think so. I would love nothing more but I don't honestly believe he is willing to do the work necessary to repair the damage that has been done.

He always maintained he never stopped loving me and he never wanted to be with her but if your that broken IMHO you don't know what love is and therefore can not give true love.

Me BS: 35
XWS: 35
OP: 30
DD: 5/30/2012
Length of Affair: 6 yrs w/ my BF

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: sunflower01
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Default  Posted: 7:00 AM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Part of what you are going through is the beginning of grief. This part is attempting get answers to questions. Why? How? Etc. In time, You will have the answers one way or another. To get the answers, you must be talking about them, reading, writing about the, venting, watching shows, IC, all are ways to move through this stage of grief. You must go over and over in your mind until your belief is totally changed. You must believe the answers.

I am going to make some statements to try and answer some questions from what has been taught to me.

This is about almost every man
- Most men equate sex to love.
- Most men are sexual a few times each week and if we are not getting enough sex it is a battle with our selves.
- Most men masturbate to fill this physical requirement.
- You cannot dictate a man’s own sexuality. Only that man can.
- Behavior is taught and learned from experience.

This is about a man who is in an affair.

- When sex happens in secret, outside society’s acceptance (marriage), it becomes a huge mental battle. The brain does and must compartmentalize. Those that cannot compartmentalize usually end it.
- Addictions make people weak minded, and usually always lead to bad choices, pain or early death.
- When your man found another willing woman, it fills a need of a man and he did not require his wife to fill his sexual need. In fact, between both women, his sexuality was then met. (Note: Women usually do not have affairs for sex)
- A cheating person does not have the ability to properly communicate what is missing in there lives.
- A cheating person lives in fear, too afraid, too selfish, and incapable to morally do the right thing. It is exactly like addiction.
- People can love two people at the same time.
- Only a cheater can change themselves. Nobody can change them. It is a choice.

This is about YOU.. and me who was cheated on
- When you believe in marriage vows, your emotions and feelings become safe toward that person. We accept marriage as the all, the given, and stop consideration of a very basic human flaw, People are not always loving or loyal. When we marry, we accept, we lose, we give up a basic instinct that protects us when someone behaves badly toward us.
- We are innocent to evil that exist it our world and did not believe it would happen to us.
- We never believed a given in life. “People that are close to us are not always loving or loyal.”

Each one of those statements can be expanded on in great detail and depth.

I can make these few statement and you can choose to believe them or not. That is your choice.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


It is about us.

I am no longer in the belief you should track, follow, monitor, or do anything that is not the choice to trust. If you have faith, pray for trust and allow God to show you again if your H cannot live a life of fidelity. I will guarantee you if you change, YOU will see it, you will be wise that he is not capable of being a good man.

You can ask him to read a book, you can ask him to go to IC, but never force him. This is going to be his choice, not yours. You are not even going to teach him, he is going to want to learn himself. I think you make the decision that you will trust. Allow him to be a good H now. Then you try with all your power to trust.

IMO, This is going to be about YOU CHANGING. Some tidbits.

I know you can believe this. An affair involves sex acts of all kinds. They did it all. Your H does not need to answer you questions about what they did. They masturbated each other, they gave each other oral, they did about every sex position you know. Accept it. It happened, you cannot change that, it was the past, you know it all happen. It had nothing to do with YOU. It was only about them. Make the choice to believe this and You accept it happened. You don’t like, it hurt, it will always pop in your mind. But pain is part of life. You have another choice. You can choose to accept this without your H around any more. Do you want that?

You are going to change your belief about your H and men in general. Your H is able to be evil. He is like many men. You now believe this and make it the emotional you. His is this kind of man and I know it. He can only hurt me from this day forward for only a short period, because I know him.

Another belief you must have. I know I can get a new partner when I want and in time a good man. Many good men are available.

This is now you… I only accept a good man’s behavior. You are going to have some new boundaries. The following are thing you only accept from now on. You can read a few more books to get specifics.
- With words and actions he is going to do things that will make you feel beautiful, desirable, attractive, and wanted (in a good way).
- A man of strength and character – be responsible like a man is. He is going to love you with services.
- Be a hard worker like a man is – and know when to set work aside.
- A creative man giving you some diversity and contrast.
- A physical, strong, and muscular like a man is supposed to be but do not forget to also let me see your strength through demonstrations of tender love. He is going to take care of his body.
- He will desire only a MONOGAMOUS relationship – where I am the only woman who gets your attention.
- He is going to be a spiritual leader – a Godly man does not have to ASK for respect…he ust naturally gets it.
- An equal level of responsibility within our marriage.
- Make me important enough to you that I merit your attention, time, effort, and resources – it turns me on when you do things with me and for me – when we do things TOGETHER for US!
- NEVER condemning, criticizing, and complaining.
- Enjoy children.
- Desire me.

And how are you only going to accept the boundaries you set? Because you are going to be MORE OPEN with him. You are going to never force him to do anything. You are going to change and only tell him what YOU WANT. Your mask is coming off. But key is from now on, Mutually equal must also be part of it. A balance is going to be needed too. You must take the high road in loving your H. Not so easy when everything is telling us to pound on him. You gotta beleive and make sure you behaviors must be to fill all his needs too. "i am not going to allow yesterday to ruin today."

Example: I want you to call me a few times each day to let me know how your day is going, what’s going on. I want you to romance me every week. I want you to take care of your body.

See, All you can do is tell him what you want. If he does not want to execute what you want and need. This is his choice. You consequence may not be what he likes.

See, when you reconcile, you are making the choice to love. It start with knowing how to forgive along with making the choice to love. We tend to believe love is feelings. But love is a noun, it is something we do. You are going to have to make the choice to love.
When you love, it will be returned in reciprocity. Thoughts always come before feelings. When you love, good thoughts will be in your mind and the good feelings will follow.

You make a decision now that conflict is going to happen.
You are going to bring on conflict EVERYTIME his behavior is bad. I cannot go into it, but you might go read a book on healthy conflicts.

maybe this one..

Anyway.. got to go.. Peace be with you all.

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:44 AM, October 16th (Tuesday)]

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Tryn has a good handle on this stuff, especially with a FWS that does not step all the way up on his or her own. I just re-read his posts to you for myself.

Your R has aspects like mine:

...why just 2x? Doesn't know, but is just adamant that it was just twice.

I got a similar statement about both of her OM and isistence of no sex with BIL, EA only. This ate at me, and finally 7 months out from dday after much pressure from me and help from our MC she gave me more details. It was a lot of sex, about once a month for years, meeting in hotels, meeting out of town...

...mostly I guess because I am not getting answers or at least the ones I believe.

FWW is unwilling (unable?) to be fully honest with me, or I believe even herself. At every point she has told me what she hopes is just enough of what I want to hear to stop the questioning. When I continued to push, she told me she was not going to answer any more questions. So part of our “failure to R” at 3 years out I believe the guilt she feels holding on to and hiding the full truth. I really think that I am past most all of that, because I embraced what Tryn posts:

An affair involves sex acts of all kinds. They did it all. Your H does not need to answer you questions about what they did. They masturbated each other, they gave each other oral, they did about every sex position you know. Accept it. It happened, you cannot change that, it was the past, you know it all happen.

Tryn told me this two years ago, and he was right. It was not just the one position as she claims; it was not ejaculation free as she claims. It also was not about me, and I accept that it happened.

You make a decision now that conflict is going to happen.
You are going to bring on conflict EVERYTIME his behavior is bad.

This is a great couple of lines. The conflict is occurring, but with our FWSs avoiding or minimizing the truth and open discussion, they are minimizing their emotional pain from the conflict. To avoid raising the questions we need, explaining the behaviors we want, we are enabling their ability to rug sweep, and destroying our ability to R.

Let me write that again, by letting FWW off the hook, I am destroying my ability to R with her.

My reality is 3 years out that I never got a full truth and honesty, so I decided I could live with that. I never got a WW working to rebuild our M and trying to gain my love and affection, I decided I could live with that. She said it made her nervous and she felt obligated when I tried to initiate sex, so I stopped. When I talked of my needs and wants in the M she called me a narcissist, so I stopped.

The fact is I cannot live with these things. I cannot live with sex less than once a month. I cannot live with being a lower priority than her family and her work. I no longer feel love for my FWW, and I haven’t for months. I no longer feel any motivation to R. FWW would rather have a roommate existence and crappy M than have to continue to work on her issues. She is leaving it to me to D and be the heavy “after she has tried so hard, only because I wanted more sex”. So I have allowed FWW to avoid her issues with me and our M. She has worked on herself, and made progress. I think she is OK with how our M is, but I am not.

Now I am going to bring on conflict everytime her behavior is bad, or in my view not supportive of our M relationship. If she does not like it she can:
change her behavior
schedule us for MC to work things out
talk to me about how she feels and negotiate
leave me

Any of these options are fine. I am refusing to continue to suck things up anymore. I have been the nice guy for too long. Detachment worked wonders for me while I was healing, but that is mostly done now. I am healthy, and I want a M with a full partner who can give as well as she takes.


[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:18 AM, October 16th (Tuesday)]

FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 10:49 AM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This makes a lot of sense to me, as I have struggled to understand why my WW carried on with the A long after the pretty butterflies died in the jar:

But they carry this dark secret for so long that it eats away at their soul. They have this side to them that they know is wrong and unhealthy but they have got themselves in a situation they don’t know how to get out of without wrecking the other part of their lives – the happier side, the one they don’t want to lose. So they carry on and do nothing.

Just before Dday, my WW had reached a state of desperate hopelessness. I even have a photo of her 2 days before Dday, that when compared to a photo 5 months later n the same outfit, she looks like a different person. She felt like she was fractured. She couldn't see herself in the mirror. She had talked down (to justify the wrongness) the M enough that it didn't seem to be worth the effort. She had talked me down so much that she really believe I did not love her and that I would leave her at some point or throw her out if I found out. She had known for a long time that the OM did not give a crap about her and that he was using her for semi-annual recreation to enhance his rush of "mentoring" an eager to impress female. If I can put aside my own ego and my own hurt and my own pain of rejection, I can see what a heartbreaking position she was in. And to think that it was of her own making for the most

I think UKgirl also talked about how the A sometimes just fits in the cracks. In my WW's case, being long distance, there was always a place for a text message exchange every few days to fit in...while going potty, waiting in line somewhere, etc. Really unlimited places to fit in without getting in the way of the primary relationship.

Ats - I have been impressed by your ability to develop an understanding of what you want. That is what I need to work on. I have never been able to do that in any aspect of my life. If I were to sit down and list want I realistically want out of my M, my WW is filling all these needs in spades. From a man's perspective, who can complain about sex every day on average or a WW that is loving every moment she is with you? What I haven't gotten a handle on yet is what I wanted from my WW over the whole marriage, which left me disappointed and disinterested in her and the M overall. It has something to do with her not healing old wounds of mine as a teen and young adult, wounds that had nothing to do with her. The A has now brought out her old wounds as well - those that were shoved under the rug. There have always been a lot of secrets in her family.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 11:03 AM, October 16th (Tuesday)]

I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
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Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I look at pictures of fwh from that time, his eyes are so dark, almost dead. The true windows into the soul, right?

So many things are clearer looking back.

Me: BW
Him: FWH
4 kids & 20 years together
DD: 7/7/11
OW1: 3yr+ LTA
OW2: My xBFF
Trying to R

Posts: 1282 | Registered: Aug 2011
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Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, October 16th (Tuesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I wish I would have found this place sooner!

UKgirl--your explanation on the A, how it could go on so! I keep looking at his choices in my own eyes and it is not making sense. I understand now that it won't make sense in my way of thinking--ever. That is HUGE! I was constantly seeking to rationalize his actions...

Also thanks to Tryn, Nigal (it really can just be sex ) Your insights are amazing.

traditoperanni--I just want you to know how very sorry I am for you. Let me know if you want to talk or vent or whatever. You are a very strong person!

I am on lunch & haven't gotten a chance to read much today, but I am so very fortunate to have found you all under the very worst of circumstances.

All that being good or bad news not sure:
MOW cancelled her appointment at my office today. I am torn between being relieved & just pissed off--I was ready for her damnit!

Will try to touch base dad is in on leave from Afghanistan so spending most of my time with him when not working--he doesn't know anything & I am keeping it that way for now.

Posts: 51 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, October 17th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After my big "new directions post" yesterday, I think I finally hit the wall (or woke up).

I went home putting effort into a fun evening. She ended up in her room texting her DD and sister while DS and I watched debate together. I went in to her after debate and was playful, she shut off light and went to sleep. No talking, no touching, she was suddenly tired. This is common, my coming to bed is when she roles over and goes to sleep. There is no chance for R, because there is no M to R. No love, affection, or attraction. This is from a long text she sent me near the end of August.

You are free - let's talk tomorrow. I know this isn't working. <snip> You and I both know we have tried and it isn't working and neither of us are getting needs met. I know I am to blame and am ok with taking blame. Think I suck at most things. I want you to be happy and I think someone besides me can assist you with that. I'm tired and feel exhausted from trying to make something work that just will not. Just wish it was easy but it's not and I seriously don't think I have what it takes to ever make you happy. <snip> I don't like who I become when I am with you and although I keep trying and I do want it to work, I am a realist and know we both have tried so hard and it isn't going great. I'm sad and had been optomistic but after IC this morning and my reprimand at work this afternoon I feel the gap and disconnect between us is not repairable. Again my total fault and I am sorry. I do believe I have tried but sometimes trying just is not enough. I know when you left your last job you had enlightenment about how bad it really was. Think we are at the point where getting out of the marriage will be the same. I can't ever ever ever be what you want or need and I struggle to be who I am when with you. You derserve better than me or as IC says you will have different not necessarily better! I think it is probably best for me to continue getting better and not seek out any relationship.

There are no new themes here. I brought the text up twice in the following week, but we did not talk about it. She does not like who she becomes when she is with me, yet no IC sessions since this text to work on that, and this as been something she has said for over a year.

She can’t ever, ever, ever be what I want or need, she has told me she is just a lump, she sucks at most things, that is all she is. Why do I keep thinking I see more in her if she does not and does not want to?

Struggling to be who she is when with me goes back to dday, and I believe is a part of the BPD traits.

I understand she is struggling and with her FOO intimacy and emotional closeness are difficult, that sex and closeness bring up painful feelings. What I do not understand is her not wanting to work on that. We have had great medical coverage that would pay for weekly or bi-weekly IC for as long as she attended, and she has gone once a month or less for the last year. In July, she knew my new coverage would not cover her IC, but I had benefits in place until October. She went one time.

It is time to start what I should have done years ago.


FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, October 17th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I'm so sorry. Your post is heartbreaking. I just don't know what to say except that in regards to that painful text, I think it sounds that you will not have just "different", you can only have BETTER.

Days after my own day, almost a year ago, I told my husband that I didn't know what would happen to us and our M, but whatever happens, lets try to help each other get through it. We would find the way together, even if it means that we wouldn't stay together. And if that was to be the case, it would happen with the least amount of pain for our family. WH was happy and relieved that I had said that and I think that we hoped that the love we had once felt for each other would serve to carry us over whatever bumpy roads were ahead.

So I can only hope for you, that once the choices are made and the road ahead is clearer, that out of friendship and love for family, that you are able to help each other along.

We all deserve happiness. But sometimes we get stuck looking in the same place. I think you deserve that love and happiness that we all seek.
Hugs to you,


Me 53
WH 58
Married 25 years
4 children S30,D24, S23,S21
D-Day Nov. 29, 2011
15 year affair with married employee.
Together trying to make sense of it all!

Posts: 664 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, October 17th (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ATS.. Thanks for sharing that text. It reinforces what my sex therapist told me and what I continue to work on. Let me share what he says… He described what I think applies to you. Your wife has disqualified herself. She cannot give herself passionately and completely because she is “disqualified”.

He teaches that a huge need from a woman is male approval. Male approval is needed for a woman to feel completely qualified. If they don’t get approval, they will seek it out. Approval is to a woman what sex is to a man.

He asked me to change many things about me… some I of which I did already do before I started with him, some I did not… He says make it my core, the new me… Here goes…
- I make a point everyday to love my wife with words of affirmation to approve her.
- Say words the affirm she is physically beautiful to me
-Say words to affirm her intelligence and the way she does things
- I make sure I touch her. I will hold her hand, I will huge her, I will kiss her at every greeting.
- I describe our future plans together; I make sure she knows she is my choice, the only one I want.
- I try to the best of my ability to fill every need… which is a book in itself!
- My efforts are to give my wife affection. I do this by caring, respecting her freedom, trusting her.
- And finally, I try not to be needy. It is up to my wife to want to fill my needs too. If not, I have the courage to confront and conflict in a healthy way.

See, I can only control what I do myself. I expect reciprocity too. And should my wife still disqualify herself after all I’ve been doing, then she makes the choice to end our relationship. It does not matter who files the documents. I know I will hurt for a short period, but I also believe I will be blessed with a new quality partner and new happiness.

Onward! Peace out.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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