My answer was that there are consequences to actions
My response to you would have been, "yes there are". I think sometimes BS's feel that because they have a "right" to their anger that somehow a WS will absorb it and their feelings won't be affected.
Sharing your anger and pain the way you've described has consequences. Feelings change. Love can die.
The same thing can be said of the choice to cheat. That's a love killer of biblical proportion. If it killed your love for your wife that's understandable. If not then consider what your goal is before you decide to use her as a spiritual scratching post.
It's quite possible to communicate pain and anger without destroying the recepient if you so desire.
'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth
He's not sleeping and admits to not being able to shut off his brain and He looks so bad that our DD, who is only 6, has commented on it. He and the OW have gone into hyper-drive in regard to their contact with each other (they can only text, call & email each other because she is married as well) and he has cut off contact with just about everyone he knows. On top of this HE has decided that I will never trust him again, even though I've never been given the opportunity to try. Is this normal WH behavior?
I do not believe that what happened was just an EA. Even an EA is not what he really thinks. He says that there were never any talks of romantic feelings for each other or about me and him or about her SO.
Even if there was no PA (which I don't buy) I know he had feelings for her. How can I get him to admit it? He says that he won't admit to anything that is not true.
I really think he won't admit to it because he knows that I would be out the door if it was a PA or I would insist that he find another job which he does not want. If he admits feelings or what he was thinking at the time (that we were not good and she was fun and exciting) then I think he thinks I would know there is more.
Please help. I cannot move on without answers.
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl
I don't know your story or how you found out about the EA (PA?) but if he hasn't admitted to you by now and you think its a PA, then tell him to take a lie detector test. If he has nothing to hide, he will pass....
The WW formerly known as messedupchick
Is this normal WH behavior?
Yes, for a non-remorseful wayward.
What possibly could be compelling about such a situation?
Affairs are extremely addicting. The sex, the attention, the validation, the illicitness (for some) can feel like heroin. Withdrawal can be very difficult once the adrenaline and endorphin supply is cut off.
I suspect that's why your WH kept going back for more.
Here's what happened:
COW on my H FB Wall:
Hi FRIEND! Hope your day today is better than at 11 last night :)
Ok - this was referring to a major issue in one of the labs he was working in. BUT, I don't like the undertone...
Then I found these emails between them - there are lots of work related things, but some are just a bit too friendly. Two that really bugged me:
Just a :) face from him to her. He took the time to enlarge the font and bold it.
*Hi BUDDY! Don't worry, I've got your back ;)
He says there is nothing between them and I do believe him. HOWEVER, he has had 2 affairs that I know of with COW. Why would he even risk this slippery slope?
ETA: Clarification - the exchange above is not with a form AP. It's with another COW
[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 6:34 AM, November 16th (Friday)]
Thanks Hope. My fWH felt no withdrawal, nothing but relief. He was thrilled to have a reason to end it without the threat of the OW telling me (since I called her that night).
That was very similar to my experience as well. That said, the "compulsion", as your WH characterizes it, can be very strong.
I skimmed the 5-pages on your thread in JFO. First of all, keep listening to the BS’s there. They will help you more than anyone else can. Everyone is going to respond based on their own experiences, so there is some truth/relevance to your situation in everyone’s response to you there. Don’t dismiss anything (not that you have, just sayin’…).
On the menopause issue, there are plenty of women who’ve gone through that and haven’t cheated, so I think it is not part of the reason that she chose to cheat.
On the premeditated issue, I see that you’ve acknowledged that, but you don’t equate the EA part the situation to the PA part. That is your choice to make that distinction, but as a WH who had an EA only, you may be surprised at how “deep” an EA can go. Add to that an EA is often just a precursor to a PA, and her A really did start 2 months before she broke up with you. Does it really matter when she first slept with the guy? She started cheating 2 months before she “ended” it with you, which, by your own description, she was trying to get your OK to go off and have a romp.
An SI veteran sent me this link right after I first posted on SI - http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2009/04/11/12-ways-to-recover-from-an-emotional-affair/. Of particular interest should be these two parts –
7. Outsmart the body - A little biology lesson here. When you are infatuated with someone, your brain chemistry whispers lies into your ears that can have you doing really stupid stuff. The spike in dopamine and norepinephrine produced with heightened sexual tension might tell you that all your troubles would end if you only kissed the handsome guy you just friended on Facebook, or ran off with the barista that makes you a perfect cappuccino. Helen Fisher, an anthropologist at Rutgers University, author of “Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love,” explains why emotional affairs feel so good:
Love is a drug. The ventral tegmental area is a clump of cells that make dopamine, a natural stimulant, and sends it out to many brain regions [when one is in love]. …It’s the same region affected when you feel the rush of cocaine.
Thus, identifying the physiological components of infatuation can be a strong ally in fighting the war against infidelity.
8. Treat the addiction - Categorizing an emotional affair as an addiction is helpful in two ways: First, it depersonalizes the experience, making it easier to let go of, and it also provides some tangible steps a person can take to kick her habit. Addictions induce a trance-like state that allows the addict to detach from the pain, guilt, and shame she feels. She buys into false and empty promises—a flawed sense of intimacy and fulfillment—until reality hits. Hard. And the addict is forever vulnerable to buying into this distorted vision, which is why recovery from emotional affair never ends, and involves one smart decision after another that fosters true intimacy.
IMO, these two parts explain more about the EA than the hormonal/menopause issue.
I believe a lot of WS’s find themselves in an EA without realizing they have already stepped over that line. Sort of along the lines of your thinking, that if there was no sex, there wasn’t really anything serious going on. Well, if that were the case, probably half of the folks on SI wouldn’t be here. So, the WS is going to be very confused when they start to realize that they’re thinking about someone other than their spouse 24/7, and they are looking forward to those times when they can get away from their SO so that they can focus more of their thoughts on their AP. For someone who has held themselves to a high moral standard throughout most of their lives, it is incredibly confusing. That is when the weird changes start happening that turn into crazy shit.
Think about it, your WGF basically came to you asking for permission to do this thing. She was attempting to set it up so that she could blame you for having sex with this guy. Believe it or not, her own moral standard won out, unfortunately after the fact, and know she realizes what she did.
I can’t go further without making one comment based on the information you provided in the JFO thread, which is what you asked us to read in order to respond to your question in this thread…if you would have talked to her about your suspicions, especially the Vegas trip, when you first knew, this whole situation may have turned out very differently. I’m not blaming you at all, please believe me, but I am making the point that communication is key in any relationship. It is something that you need to work on now. So does your WGF.
Another point to make based on the information in your post is that your WGF needs to focus on actions, not words. And by actions, I don’t mean the deed to the house or the credit cards or anything else so easy. She needs to keep up the hard work of IC to figure out why she let herself start down that slippery slope. The slippery slope started just prior to the beginning of her EA. She had a mindset before her and Richard (Dick, right?) started talking. She needs to look into that more than anything else. She doesn’t need to be subservient or willing to do anything to save the M. She needs to figure out her own issues. Your choice will be whether you want to wait for her to do this work. It could take a couple years.
[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 9:02 AM, November 25th (Sunday)]
Does a WS really believe they can revert to old behaviors? Do they really trust themselves?
If a WS isn't confident in their new coping mechanisms then that would make them doubt their ability to remain faithful. Unfortunately, someone in that mindset isn't likely to be introspective enough to realize that.
I'm not really sure what you're asking in your post.
I also don't understand the distinction you make between an AP and a "COW". Using deragory terms in this forum can be offensive to the WS who are here trying to help you, by the way.
I think that if you aren’t comfortable with these “friendly” communications, then he should be acknowledging that concern of yours and doing what it takes to make sure you feel safe. In this case, that means no smiley faces and no response to these friendly emails. The slippery slope in this situation is your WH not taking into account your concerns. Who knows…the co-worker may just be friendly to everyone. Fine. Whatever. Your WH should be listening to your needs, not worrying about being friendly back to a co-worker.
ETA - Hope, I think she means female co-worker instead of co-worker other woman (COW).
[This message edited by BaxtersBFF at 9:22 AM, November 25th (Sunday)]
There have been many stories of the WS coming clean in the parking lot of the lie detector office. It may be the only way. Have you asked him to read Joseph’s Letter? http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp
If you suspect a PA, and no about an EA which your WH is minimizing, then why won’t you leave until he confirms the PA?
It is my understanding, having been here for 5+ years, that COW is the acronymn for Co-worker. It was not meant as a derogatory term to label the AP as a Cow - as in the animal.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 8:55 PM, November 25th (Sunday)]
Who knows…the co-worker may just be friendly to everyone. Fine. Whatever. Your WH should be listening to your needs, not worrying about being friendly back to a co-worker.
He has acknowledged that seeing it through my eyes that it is wrong. Which I do appreciate. I wish he saw it as wrong through his own eyes.
Pre-A these little email exchanges wouldn't even have been a blip on a screen to me. Post-A, I just wish it was more a blip to him.
It is my understanding, having been here for 5+ years, that COW is the acronymn for Co-worker. It was not meant as a derogatory term to label the AP as a Cow - as in the animal
Thanks for clarifying, Lucky2. In my years here, I have heard it used in other ways than coworker or the animal.
At any rate, it sounds like your WH has never established good boundaries with women and doesn't see the benefit of doing so. That doesn't bode well, I'm afraid.
You have every right to be concerned.
How did you as WS handle a BS questions about comparisons between the AP and the BS?
Do you mean personality comparisons or physical comparisons?
For both I was honest. He asked me what I saw in him personality wise that made me like him even as a friend when I couldn't stand the guy when I first met him. I told him the truth which had to hurt, I looked for things in OM that reminded me of BBF. The sarcastic humor, the confidence, the take the world by the horns attitude, the love of gaming and focused on those things. When it turned physical and I was disgusted by what'd I'd done I was able to stop doing that and realize why I disliked this guy so much the first time I met him.
Physical I was equally honest. He asked me to compare them size wise and I was honest. He asked me to compare them sexually, I told him the one time he attempted to have sex with me he could not maintain an erection because of how drunk we were and I was pushing him away as well. I told BBF honestly OM was nothing compared to BBF sexually and that no one had ever made me feel as good as BBF could. I also honestly told him I got no enjoyment out of the physical acts with OM. We went over the physical aspect tirelessly. The personality aspects came later and were just as hard.
If she is deflecting the questions you need to tell her to stop. If these are answers you need then she needs to suck it up. Just make sure you can handle all answers no matter what they may be.
Both had DDays and TT
Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.
Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.