I don’t think that anything WS tells you would give you an answer or it would apply in your case. In my case there was a huge communication problem, for which I’m the only one responsible, and I could not relate my remorse. I was not capable of doing this. But, I had remorse, and I still have this remorse, as big as a mountain. Yes, there are BS’s that will tell you that the true remorse can be seen, and the fact that they are not seeing it is a proof that their husbands don’t have it. But, I don’t agree, sometimes the way people see things after Ddays is so different, that emotional communication is very hard. I am a proof of this. With all my remorse. It is huge and yet, my wife don’t think it exists. So, yes, I have failed in showing it in way it is understandable and visible for her, but it doesn’t mean it was not there. My biggest problem, my whole life, and it took me some time to understand, was that I was emotionally extremely uncommunicative. Not only that I wasn’t saying things, I wasn’t showing them properly either. And as much as I was trying and wanting to change this in myself, I simply couldn’t. I was surprised when my wife told me that I’m not doing anything, while I was under impression that there is nothing more I can do. When she told me that I “never tell her I love her” when I had completely, but completely different picture in my head. On one occasion, I was watching her with so much love that I was melting inside, when she lifted her head and asked me “why am I looking at her with a face of a hit man”?
I’m not saying that this could be your case, or anybody else's, but there is so much that both WS and BS take for granted with each other. I have 20 something years of marriage behind me and I know that emotionally I never really understood my wife, nor she understood me. I agree, there is huge urgency in understanding BS’s and trying to help them out from the situation that they are in. And everything else should be put aside, it doesn’t matter. How WS’s understand, live out this problem, is not of any importance. They didn’t even deserve to be understood. I completely agree. But, sometimes, they can react the way they do because they are just humans. And usually, damaged ones, too.
So, the real question is, was your husband capable of remorse before Dday. If he was, he still is, and probably, more than ever. He might only, not be able to show this in any meaningful way, because, before he broke you, he was broken himself.
Hope this makes sense-when I read it again, not sure. There so many emotions I want to relay and so few lines.
As R continues past 3 years for me/us, I can't see evidence that he stayed with me b/c losing me would have just devastated him...he doesn't separate me from our whole life together...almost 40 years together...so I feel like I haven't been valued by him for a very long time...until this A i just assumed I was his soulmate as he was mine...now I just con't get that back.
Just need thoughts from the WS side of things so maybe I will understand where he is coming from.
My situation might be different because I’m SA so it is extremely hard for my wife to live with this, and I was never given the chance of reconciliation (at least not verbally). Because of my history, my everyday’s life was tough, and, even now, after 2 years, it still is. Thanks to myself and my behavior, anyway. And hundred times less tough as it is for my wife, don’t get me wrong.
So, from your posts I can really see what was your behavior like after Dday. Was it for your husband business as usual to stay with you, continue as hi did, or everything changed? Were you screaming, crying, in constant pain, was he in pain. How different were your reactions, how much did you discuss the whole thing? Was there any effort for him to put into reconciliation, so you can see that he was trying?
My wife would not believe that I love her, and that I’m trying to cling to my marriage for this reason only. She still does not, and probably never will. I tried to explain my situation, in calm moments, logically, if I can’t use words to describe the emotions that she will believe: Ok, I’m the scum of the earth. If I am like that, wouldn’t be the easiest to go, straight away, without looking back and live the life you said I have chosen. Finally free, no boundaries, I can be SA 24/7. No morals, no conscience, so why would I stay? She said that I’m staying because I’m responsible, always have been. But, if I’m responsible, how could I have done all of those things. Also, you can be responsible and still leave. She doesn’t really have me, at least it appears she doesn’t really want me, and everything else that goes with me she would still have. You can be responsible as an divorced parent. So why would I stay? I can’t explain, she says at the end of this discussion. I’m not saying that you should apply logic in your case, but, sometimes, it may help to eliminate factors that cloud the picture.
I don’t know if I will be given second, or a millionth chance (depends how you look at it) but If I do, I know I will never miss a chance to communicate emotionally to my wife, any fears, any thought, any worries, any feelings. Although I can look at the reconciliation process with only an envy, I somehow feel that you guys are not communicating the way you should.
I hate when I sound like I’m giving advices, and although I can’t pin point where, the tone of this post is wrong. Please, don’t understand me wrongly, I’m not here to give any advices, just to explain my logic and my reasoning. I don’t know if this would help, but I’m sure it will not make it any worse.
I waffled back and forth and put my BW through limbo because of the guilt. The thing that knocked me off the fence was when my BW was ready to go. So, the best answer for my situation given your options is that I could not stand the thought of a life without her.
What gets me though is that the situation as it occurred could easily be construed as selfish on my part, meaning my BW decided she was going to go take care of herself, in her words, she was “going to find someone who would love her as she deserves.” The thought of her going on with her life, finding that happiness which I knew I was responsible for having taken away in the first place, and also knowing that I would likely remain miserable on my own was what knocked me off the fence.
I don’t know how to make it seem other than my BW as a second choice; that I settled. This is something that I’ve thought about fairly often. All I know is that it was the best choice for me, for her, for our kids and for our lives together. So every day is a day that I get to prove that my BW was the best thing for me, and that I am forever going to be sorry for what I put her through, and that I get to find a way to show her how grateful I am that she also chose me.
What are some triggers WS have? I have seen this on other boards, and I have asked my WH what his triggers are and he claims he doesn't have any. And I have been wondering what some may be.
thank you for any help/answers I can get
[This message edited by scangel3 at 1:05 PM, December 11th (Tuesday)]
"Our MC told us let go of the consequences. Assuming a person is not trying to hurt someone else and is speaking authentically... from the heart... Just say it.
Your H should just say what he thinks, what he feels. You are strong enough to hear it. If you cry, you cry. If you get mad, you get mad. You'll get over it."
Totally great advice from your marriage counsellor and ours has said the same. Sadly the last part tho...you are right, I am strong enough to hear anything and may cry or get mad, but sadly my FWH isn't strong enough to deal with my tears or especially with anger as he retreats/withdraws in further and his level of shame increases, which leads to more anxiety from him etc. This has been such a vicious cycle for us, non-healing for either of us. He's working in IC so I can only hope that he can learn some good, effective coping strategies and actually USE them or we won't get through this. It's really sad. Thanks so much for your post!
I'm not sure how that statement works, and I've seen it a number of times here.
Probably the easiest thing to consider is compartmentalization. The WS can put the people and events around them into whatever box those things need to be put into at whatever point they need to. If they couldn't, then their head would explode.
In my case, I was actively trying to stop loving my BW, and believe I got to that point. I can see that it was a road I didn't want to go down and felt forced to go that direction. So I can see that I did still have love for my wife during my EA, but did everything I could to deny it.
Not sure what your situation is, so hopefully someone else will come along with a better answer.
Compartmentalization – scary stuff. Yes, you are able to live 2 lives at the same time. To lock away all the unpleasant thoughts. Everything that doesn’t suit you. I thought before this can only happen to a serious mentally ill person, even than, it looked like a stretch.
Until It happened to me.
Minimalization – comes along, in the same package. Favorite ones are “everybody is doing it”, “this is nothing serious”. For all my years I really thought that the time I spend thinking of sex outside my marriage, and doing the deed, was very short, almost nonexistent. Something that would take a minute out of my day, couple of thoughts here and there. It took a while for me to realize that slowly, but surely, that sex was taking over my life, my duties, my thoughts until it changed me completely.
Denial – what ever you put in that box, denial prevents to come out. For me, it is sort of minimalization, but with some sort of longer lasting effects like “she will never find out because I will not tell her”, “I’m a good and honest man”.
Selfishness – this is the biggest one, and, for me, it somehow grew from my childhood. I was denied many things as a child. That is why I felt I have right, that I have deserved everything I wanted. “She is not interested in sex, and I have right to it”, “I work so hard and I deserved some pleasure for myself”, “she doesn’t take care of my needs, I take care of hers (wroooong) so I will take care of myself”.
From what I have understood, this all together, represents what they call “the fog”. Even after Dday, it is hard to get out of this way of thinking. Some of us are not capable of doing it ever. Some recognize this with the help of CI. Some, by themselves. This still doesn’t answer the question “why did I do it?”. It just explains the mechanism that made it possible.
So, to answer your question – yes, it is possible, your husband could have loved you and still did all those things. And trust me (if you can, considering who I am), it is as strange to him as it is strange to you. Now, whatever I mentioned are psychological terms, and I don’t know much about psychology at all. All I know, they are not measurable. So if you want concrete answer, that is not going to have any probabilities, you will not find it. Yes, the easiest simple answer is “he didn’t love me”, and it is logical, concrete. But, again, it is not that simple. Yes, there are many WS’s that turn away from their spouses straight away, or, even, after DD, treat them even worse than before. But, there are numerous others who managed to reconcile, who stayed with their BS’s, and continue loving them. Yes, they have done terrible things and they have taken responsibility for it. But, they loved their BS’s and their stayed with them through their hardest moments. I’m not saying this as something nice about them, like they deserve the medal, after all, they are simply doing what they were suppose to be doing all their marriage. I’m simply saying this because I don’t believe that you can “not love” somebody for number of years, and then, when you are discovered, you can suddenly “start loving them” with an unbelievable intensity.
I might be wrong here in may aspects, but this is how I feel.
Betraying someone you love is not a loving act.
I’m simply saying this because I don’t believe that you can “not love” somebody for number of years, and then, when you are discovered, you can suddenly “start loving them” with an unbelievable intensity.
This is true, but I believe that the love you felt during the affair wasn't the same love that you felt on your wedding day. Yes, I too feel as though I never stopped loving my BS; yet I completely betrayed him. How could I do that if I loved him?? Compartmentalization? Sure, I did that. Selfishness, Minimalization, Denial - I agree that these are all part of a WS's thinking. That little voice in our head that rationalizes the A.
But what BaxtersBFF said
So I can see that I did still have love for my wife during my EA, but did everything I could to deny it.
I am still working though this myself, because I have told my BS the same thing. He doesn't buy it and I understand, I wouldn't either.
Guns don't kill people; Affairs kill people
[This message edited by rachelc at 9:58 AM, December 13th (Thursday)]
4 kiddos in lower 20's
“Grief does not change you, Hazel. It reveals you.”
[This message edited by tooloyal at 5:44 AM, December 16th (Sunday)]
You have the right place…
There have been a couple of threads on this subject (at least related) just recently. One in the Wayward forum and the other was either in Recon or General.
There isn’t necessarily a reason to see the AP in a negative light. For many of us, the AP just no longer matters. They aren’t part of R, there is no reason to expend the mental energy into a negative view, or any view at all.
I do think that it’s great that your WH has been able to separate the OW from the A. The OW is just a person, but the thing your WH needs to figure out is why he needed the ego boosting and flattery. That is where the “whys” will be found. When a WS is in the fog though, all they are going to see is that the AP is responsible for those feelings. They aren’t.
Those feelings are something that can create biochemical reactions in the brain similar to what addicts feel (okay, biochemical is just a guess and a fun, fancy word to use…don’t know if that description is accurate, but you can google this stuff). So, a WS is going to be able to look back with clarity. The next challenge will be to see if they can accept it and work through it without blaming it all on someone else.
How do you know its not all a lie?
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl
I am also having a hard time believing her when she tells me that I am what she has always wanted and that she is attracted to me.
She was such a skilful liar during her affair that I find myself doubting everything she says.
These things didn't matter to be before d-day, but they weigh on me now almost all the time.
WS out there, did you continue to lie to your spouse in R in order to make them feel better about themselves?
[This message edited by koss424 at 10:51 AM, December 17th (Monday)]