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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 7
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:58 AM, May 17th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm back after a long hiatus. Had a few questions for FWWs.

I've stopped pushing for the truth 3 years post DDay. WW hasn't made any effort in trying to prove that she's even a little sincere after initially over a year of TT. Her EU/CA ways are in full force again after months of trying the rick reynolds affair recovery program.

Question is; am I trying to extract blood from a stone (and she has some other issues about being open) or should I accept the general advise I glean from here which is "her behaviours"=remorseless and continuing deceit.

A little background; I always got a lot of IDK, "can't remember" and never got important details like names or places even though there were multiple As over many years AND she always denies PAs though i have circumstantial evidence to the contrary and my gut cries out so. In defence, the As came to light 7 years after their start, so there might be something in that; having said that, she remembers every sleight since we first got married down to specific instances and words exchanged.

Bonus question; we're madhatters and her response of late (I.e. since we last talked anything affair related about 6 months ago) was "I've been made to feel like the wayward for 2 years, it's time I'm allowed to feel like the BS" - in response to who was taking on the BS 'role' in the AR program). Question is she's never admitted the extent of her As nor done anything to show her making much progress away from wayward thinking, as a MH, do I have a right to call her out on her waywardness / lapse behaviours and lack of sincerity in proving she's actually committed to a R or should I shut up (which I have) and carry on working on my issues as the WS.

I know I can't change her so I've stopped trying to do that; it doesn't mean that this continued behaviour doesn't hurt or isn't continued disrespect and abuse.

[This message edited by noescape at 7:00 AM, May 17th (Friday)]


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, May 19th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Question: How do you feel (now) about any friends you told about the A while it was going on? Do you respect their loyalty for keeping your secret?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
authenticnow
♀ Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, May 19th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Most of those friends are out of our life. They were not friends of the marriage. Many were 'on board', cheering me on during my As. I understand that I put them in an uncomfortable position. I own that.

The few that are still around were ones who I told but discouraged me from continuing.

My sister and BH's sister also knew and didn't tell him. After d-day, BH had it out with each of them. They apologized, cried, showed remorse, etc. He forgave but will never forget it and their relationship will never be the same. (My sister is out of our lives now for another bunch of reasons, but that's not the point)

My xbff not only knew, and aided me during my As, but she did not show any humility to BH afterwards. She said she had nothing to apologize for, even though we were all family friends---like, extremely close for 14 years. She and I are no longer friends. I haven't spoken to her for almost 3 years and don't plan to.

It is very, very sad and messy, what As do to so many relationships. It also shows you who has integrity and will tell you the tough stuff, as a friend, and who will jump on the immoral bandwagon with you. People's true colors and character certainly come out.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 34731 | Registered: Sep 2007
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, May 19th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FacePunched,

I only told one friend during the A. Actually, she figured it out. She said, "You have to do what makes you happy, even if it means hurting others!" She also insulted my XH after the divorce, saying I should be over it and I could do better because "he's old and ugly and bald!" WTF.

We are no longer friends.

Edited to add: she has also been an unrepentant OW in relationships, so she's not exactly a poster girl for good relationship advice.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 9:35 AM, May 19th (Sunday)]


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1916 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
archernine
♀ Member
Member # 31898
Default  Posted: 5:49 PM, May 20th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did you ever think your BS didn’t care for you? Were there times if they had facial expressions during a conversation that it made you feel stupid or crazy? My WS told me he sought out attention because he didn’t believe I cared about him. I just wonder if other WS’s felt the same way. With the second question, I’ve heard lately if my facial expression looks sour, sad, or angry, it makes him feel a certain way. Once again, I’m wondering if any other WS felt the same thing?


An affair isn't like taking pottery ... they always end disastrously...and it's the one thing in my life I would undo if I could-- from the movie, Unfaithful.

Posts: 84 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From: Maryland
allatsea
♂ Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 3:11 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've just posted a question in the general forum about whether reconciliation by WS after they have left the BS for the OP is possible. Obviously it assumes that the WS has realised that the OP wasn't perfect after all! Is anyone here aware of anyone who has done this?


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now pregnant
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 520 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:12 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Noescape,

I remember this being a consistent problem for you when you were here before. It sounds like not much has changed.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
tired girl
♀ Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Noescape,

I remember this being a consistent problem for you when you were here before. It sounds like not much has changed. If she isn't going to get to a place where she is honest with you about what has happened I would think it would be difficult to repair the M and herself.

Since you guys are madhatters, it may be easier to talk about some of this stuff over in the madhatter thread.


Me43 Him 43 Hardlessons DS 24,22,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth”
― Pema Chödrön

Posts: 3663 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
allatsea
♂ Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What goes through the mind of a ww when they watch their favourite tv programme and the episode is about the devastation that one of the female characters causes to her husband when she has an affair?
Does she switch the channel, disregard the similarities or is she disgusted at the portrayal?

[This message edited by allatsea at 3:34 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday)]


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now pregnant
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 520 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you tired girl for the response. I wanted an answer from WWs perspective because there is not much involvement from WW over at madhatters or anywhere else (irl, forums, counselling, etc) in general.

She'll always prefer the option of "if we don't talk about it, it's not a problem". But I understand how it may be offensive to BSs by me posting here.

My apologies.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

noescape -

I know I can't change her so I've stopped trying to do that; it doesn't mean that this continued behaviour doesn't hurt or isn't continued disrespect and abuse.

Since you cannot change her and you intend to stay with her, you need to work on accepting her as she is.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:40 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FacePunched -

How do you feel (now) about any friends you told about the A while it was going on? Do you respect their loyalty for keeping your secret?

Yes, I love my friends and they kept my secret and they always supported me. I told four best friends - every single one told me to stop acting stupidly. One didn't want to know anything about the OM - he wasn't worth her time - but she wanted me to tell her everything I felt. Then she yelled at me. I would not have survived without them.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

allatsea -

Does she switch the channel, disregard the similarities or is she disgusted at the portrayal?

I get uncomfortable.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
ophelia24
♀ Member
Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 11:50 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Noescape,
FWW in progress here. It took me 7 years from my last affair to start looking at myself. I wish that I had found SI back then, or my BH had, as we would have done things way different, or I hope we would have. As it was, we did everything that keeps it all pushed away, ie him taking the blame for my affair as afraid I would leave, me accepting this as my reasons and then embarking on a brief PA 2 years later (coz you know, I had learnt nothing!). It was only last year that I began to look hard at myself and had to go to some painful places, not to mention secret pushed away places (I just confessed to affairs going back 21 years, yeah, 7 years ago was the tip of the iceberg) and it was only then that I began to find out my whys and realise how fucked up I was in many aspects of my life.

I think there were many things that lead to my eventual soul-searching (and found that soul in a lot of pain). I had gone to uni in my 30's and realised I was pretty smart and could carry on to post graduate if I wanted to, thus assuaging some aspects of the big hole I felt in me, and my self loathing at not doing enough in my life, which I had always (I know now) had partially blamed on my H for my failings and then gone out to perform destructive behaviours to take the focus off me (affairs, drinking too much, changing jobs, restlessness etc). Its a hard to thing to sit with yourself and realise how worthless you feel and how hurt you feel at many aspects of your life. But I did. And then I turned toward my H rather than away, and its been a pretty incredible time ever since.

So what is the point of this Im thinking (and no doubt you) and I think it is that your WW is going to have to sit with some pretty uncomfortable shit, her self-loathing (that would have played a part in her affair) and go to some hurting places. We can only really save ourselves, but it helps to have someone who loves us, mirror back that we will be ok and are ok and to keep going.

All you can do is have her back, and yours, and love both of you. The rest is up to her.


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 241 | Registered: Feb 2013
ophelia24
♀ Member
Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 11:52 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, and I must mention my BFF who was going on her own difficult path and being honest and brave with herself and those around her, and never shied away from painful truths. I can't reiterate enough how important it is to have really good people around us.


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 241 | Registered: Feb 2013
ophelia24
♀ Member
Member # 38438
Default  Posted: 11:57 PM, May 22nd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quick T/J

My sister and BH's sister also knew and didn't tell him. After d-day, BH had it out with each of them. They apologized, cried, showed remorse, etc. He forgave but will never forget it and their relationship will never be the same. (My sister is out of our lives now for another bunch of reasons, but that's not the point)

Are we twins AN?lol. My H just confronted my sister about her part in my affair 7 years ago as has really started to feel fully the pain of that and never did that 7 years ago. Needless to say, my sister did not hold herself accountable for her part in it (2x4 to my head would have been a loving act my BH reckons) and therefore our relationship has become somewhat strained. I in no way blame her, nor does my BH as I am the one who chose this path, but it really does show up peoples lack of boundaries themselves when this shit goes on. And the consequences if not owned by those confronted (which is a loving act in itself) can be that there is no relationship.

End T/J (sorry, but your description was exactly like ours)


“Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up.”
― James Baldwin

Posts: 241 | Registered: Feb 2013
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:32 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

US - to a large degree I have (accepted). It hurts to see her so callously hurt her H/M so much every day and in every way. Its worse that this is what she wants for her kids/the family unit.

I havent been a sterling H but I try and every day I push back the demons and make the effort to be in the here and now. Knowing what I know and knowing she knows what I know is just the icing on the shit sandwich. dry adultery seems like a way of life for some. yes, I am here and I struggle with my weaknesses and my choices. I guess I just needed somewhere to reflect and vent a bit and SI is the only place I know of where I can. I also need some perspective (and dare I say, hope?) and ask those (WWs) who've come out the other side what it took and when/how it happened.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:42 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

O24 - thank you thank you thank you.

Everything you said was important for me to hear. At the risk of demonising WW, I'd say she has had plenty resources and opportunities from my DDays (3 years ago) to come to *some* realisation of what you've described. IC/MC and books and forums and even some R programs. Its always like she has barriers upon barriers (layers) and what she reveals is only the cold/calculating surface.

I know I have and have yet to cover a lot of ground in my own R which will be a work in progress till the day I die, yet I believe nothing on her end starts till she faces some very unpleasant truths about herself - which she hasn't even scratched the surface on/would rather bury under heaps of unhealthy coping mechanisms and denials...

All I am saying is - thank you for letting me know that there is a way out for those who truly seek it/find it and that I am not crazy/obsessing about a potential non-issue. I've been gaslit so much, I dont know where the last decade or so of my life have been.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
allatsea
♂ Member
Member # 38923
Default  Posted: 8:34 AM, May 23rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello again and thanks for being here to help us through this mess.

We poor BS's always reassure ourselves that WS's are broken people and must suffer from feeling shitty when they are on their own and have time to reflect. We also convince ourselves that they really do know that the BS isn't at fault. We hope that they are suffering, even a little bit by what they have done.

In the scenario that a WS has left the BS for the OP and hasn't yet returned to the BS, does the WS ever have pangs of guilt, realisation that they have taken the wrong path or that they are broken?
When they accuse the BS of being the cause of it all with statements like 'if only you hadn't done this or that', do they really know that it's total bollocks? I don't mean on a sub-concious level but conciously?

I like to think that she is deeply unhappy and misses me and everything we had that was good, but I fear that she just doesn't. We had some superb times, laughed a lot, holidayed a lot and were financially secure. However, I fear that she genuinely is happier with OM and her new life. She says so

Please give me insight


Me 40
WW 38
Together 19 years
Married for 9
DS(1) 9
DS(2) 7
Dday 10th Feb 2013
She moved in with POS and took kids 23rd Mar 2013. WW now pregnant
Divorced April 2014

Posts: 520 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: UK
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