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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 7
eyesrnowopen
♀ Member
Member # 39055
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, July 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want to get some feedback from a WS.

History: DD 3/13, BH had two OW at work, one he met outside work. Over three years he admits to EA with no PA. All three were with him at confrences and one was at our house when I was out of town. He admits to intent only. Intent makes me feel just as betrayed. We have been separated since DD. I threw him out and he is acting like a victim as a result. We are both in IC and MC. He is blame shifting, calling me selfish for always asking ? About A and accussing him of lying.
Now: I sought L advice because he was starting to get angry and entittled and and trying to bully his way back in the M. I was advised that I should have 5 months emergency funds stashed away. I opened my own account and moved slightly more than half our savings money so it could be used only in an emergency to protect myself.

First domino: I explained to him that I needed this because I didn't trust him to pay our bills and in case of D I needed to have this so I would feel less vulnerable. I told him I thought we should still continue with MC and decide together if we should R or D and that I have not decided yet just making sure I was prepared.

Next Domino: I get crickets from him as to what he is thinking. He takes all the money out of our checking as I did not touch this because we have bills. All checks start to bounce. Still no return calls or text from him. I go to the bank and use emergency funds I just set aside to square the checking account.

Now what do I do? He has become angrier and angrier at me. He feels I am selfish and unforgiving and trying to control the situation. He acts like the victim. My MC says he is full of rage and anger and maybe we can get through this with time.

Do you think I poked the tiger and ruined any chance that we may have had at R? I just felt so powerless and the more angrier he was becoming the more desperate I was to make sure I had the money to protect myself. The thing is it felt so unnatural for me to act sneaky and take the money behind his back. I felt I could not share my plan and why until I had secured the money. Now I feel I will be forced to file as he will pull his paycheck, hence next two dominos. I'm not exactly ready to D yet and to throw away 17 years of M.

Any thoughts for those of you who may have had this kind of rage. I keep thinking he just needs more time for the rage to pass. Why can't he understand my need to feel safe since I am financially vulnerable? Have any of you been in a similar position?


This is the work within, having control over the outcome of our lives. Robert Bly refers to this as “Warrior work.” A warrior fights for a cause, something he believes in. As opposed to a soldier who merely fights for control – power or profit.

Posts: 82 | Registered: Apr 2013
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, July 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyesrnowopen I can't advise on your particular situation, but since several hours have elapsed, I wanted to respond and tell you I admire your strength and intelligence in dealing with this shitstorm. OW was at your house while you were out of town, and they...what...watched Friends reruns together? Carmelized onions? Give me a break, no PA, that strains credulity.

You haven't ruined anything. Don't even try to blame yourself for anything, It's the BS who's entitled to a little rage in the first several months after DDay, not the WS!

What do you do? They'll give you great advice in JFO. Heed it.


^^Everything I write, IMHO & YMMV.^^
fWW: 42, amazing H and two elementary-age kids.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing & rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Posts: 775 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

crossroads -

I guess what i am wondering is does a WS put trust of the BS as a condition that must be met if the M is to survive....could you ever feel successfully recovered and okay with the knowlege that the BS doesn't trust you?

I assume that my H will always be suspicious whenever anything strange happens (hang up phone call, stranger in neighborhood, etc.). That's a consequence. I don't really care. That's his issue to deal with. It doesn't matter to me whether he trusts me or not. He had nothing to do with my cheating, he has nothing to do with my recovery.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 2:10 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

eyes -

Do you think I poked the tiger and ruined any chance that we may have had at R?

Girlfriend - you don't want a D but you've already lost him. Don't let him call the shots. Don't walk on eggshells. Plan for your future - money, lawyer, housing, whatever. Inform your H what he needs to do to show remorse and how he can help you feel safe. If he does not do that, he's gone. Don't second guess yourself. Protect yourself.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
dmari
♀ Member
Member # 37215
Default  Posted: 4:17 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why do they (therapists, books. folks at SI) tell us ~ BS's ~ that we can't "nice" our WS back?


Me (BS): 42 Children: DD 18, DS 15
I FINALLY GOT A COURT DATE: 5/29/14!!

Posts: 1832 | Registered: Oct 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why do they (therapists, books. folks at SI) tell us ~ BS's ~ that we can't "nice" our WS back?

Why do you think you can? Do you think WS cheated because of your behavior? Do you think you can control WS's feelings? Would you feel better if you knew it was "your fault"?


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
dmari
♀ Member
Member # 37215
Default  Posted: 11:01 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@UnexpectedSong: Thank you for posting those questions. As soon as I read it, I said "hmmmm". Maybe if I am "nice" during our separation/divorce, it will magically make him remorseful??? Sounds so stupid after I wrote it.

I'll be re-reading my codependent books since I think that is where it really is coming from (for me).


Me (BS): 42 Children: DD 18, DS 15
I FINALLY GOT A COURT DATE: 5/29/14!!

Posts: 1832 | Registered: Oct 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 11:05 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe if I am "nice" during our separation/divorce, it will magically make him remorseful???

The only thing you can do is specify your requirements for reconciliation. Then he decides what he wants to do. You cannot control him into remorsefulness.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 3:25 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm reposting a question I posted at the beginning of the month - the board was really quiet at the time and I only got the one response and would love some more feedback:

I am really hoping that a WS can help me understand this a little better as this is an issue that, for me at least, is threatening to de-rail our attempt at R.
We are 10 months out and a HUGE stumbling block for me is that my fWH says that he felt almost no guilt or shame during the A. He says that once the A ended (OW ended it) he regretted it and realised that what he had done was very wrong (he admits he knew it was wrong all the time, but says he just never thought about it). In the 8 1/2 years between the A ending and him confessing, he says he felt only small amounts of guilt because he didn't think about the A much. He says when infidelity came up in conversation or on TV etc he would feel guilty but would then put it out of his mind.

I just don't understand this AT ALL. I don't understand how he could NOT have been overwhelmed with guilt and shame. Had it been me I would have been writhing about in guilt, shame and remorse. How come he wasn't? It makes me think his feelings for me don't run very deep at all!

The fact that he felt little or no guilt and shame for all those years also makes me wonder how real his remorse is now?? How come he is only having these feelings NOW? Does this not indicate that the remorse, shame etc he is supposedly feeling now is just "put on" for my benefit?

Or is his remorse and shame now perhaps a reaction to my intense pain and hurt?

I feel that his lack of guilt and shame makes him a bit of a monster to be frank! To me it shows a lack of conscience. I find it scary.

I had him speak to his IC about this and her response was "you are being too hard on yourself" WTF??

I would really, really appreciate some help here!!


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 18yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 782 | Registered: Oct 2012
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 3:51 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't understand this AT ALL. I don't understand how he could NOT have been overwhelmed with guilt and shame.

I think it would be useful for you to go through this thread and look for anything anyone has posted on "compartmentalization". It has nothing to do with you - his love for you is real. But he puts feelings in boxes. It's something he learned to do as a child.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
ItsaClimb
♀ Member
Member # 37107
Default  Posted: 1:00 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks UnexpectedSong I will do that. I have read a little about compartmentalisation - I just can't quite get my head around it.

For example, he would phone me to say goodnight from OW's house after they had spent hours cuddling on the couch, cooked supper together and be about to get into bed together... HOW on earth did he not feel guilty about that when he was on the phone to me telling me how much he loved and missed me... knowing full well where he was and what he was doing? How?? I just can't understand it!


BS 46
Together 29 yrs, M 25 years
2 daughters 24yo(married with a brand new little daughter) & 18yo
D-Day 18 Aug 2012
6mth EA lead to 4mth PA with CO-W. I found out 8 1/2 yrs later

Posts: 782 | Registered: Oct 2012
crossroads2010
♀ Member
Member # 30213
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

itsaclimb....BS here....It is difficult to grasp that WS thinking and I have spent a long time wondering how could he live with this and blow it off as if it is nothing...I hope a recovered WS with insight will be answer this. I sort of attribute the seemingly unthinkable things my H did and said and the lies to compartmentalisation also. i think I kind of have a grasp on it from the BS perspective...it is what I did when I had those words and mind movies raging inside and had to show a straight face to my kids...it is how I handled going to work when the confusion of the A was eating away at me....compartmentalisation is how you learn to deal with normal life stuff when the unthinkable abnormal is your life is interferring...box it up in a little square... thoughts and emotions... and put it aside so it doesn't exist for a while...for my WH that was when he was at home cutting the grass...with our kids...at work...even for short periods when he was at her place lying to me about where he was. The were apparently litlle boxes for many world... it is how we all survive.

The OW in my situation said in an email to him...the key to keeping this a secret for now is to not break with normal...compatimentalizing helps one do this.


Posts: 509 | Registered: Nov 2010
ArableSands
♂ Member
Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WS input please, from a betrayed spouse.

We're both committed to R, are in MC. Probably we'll both take up IC. Also, in a couple of weeks my wife (she's the WS) will be flying out to visit her family with our kids. A week's break might do us some good.

What's been going on -- for maybe 4-5 years I've been domineering in our arguments, she's been giving in. It's not my usual personality. To keep it short, I'll say that it was my response to a series of crises and tragedies, of which the aftermath I did not know how to cope with. She's suppressed most of the anger and pain around it. Then the cheating happened, I caught her.

For about 2 weeks after D-Day, she was a model of remorse. Then a day came after she spoke to a trusted cousin and my wife gave me pushback. The anger and pain from the years of me being controlling welled up. She insisted that she was still remorseful and was here to help me heal, but I didn't feel it, not with the anger mixed in.

I told her point blank, albeit while sobbing my heart out, that I had NO ROOM to deal with her anger now, and that I needed her to help ME heal. When I was healed enough from the betrayal I would step up and own my shit from our marriage in MC. She's agreed and has begun re-suppressing her anger and pain, although she's not doing it happily.

So the question. Why is she doing this? Why try so hard? Why suffer? And what made her think it was okay to be angry AND remorseful toward me at the same time, and think that it would help me heal?


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ArabicSands - why does your healing come before hers? You have been emotionally abusive for years. And she gets no say? You are still emotionally abusing her.

You are behaving like a wayward. Those 4-5 years weren't really you (rationalizing), you were stressed (justification), she hurt you worse (blame shifting).

It's not my usual personality

You know what? If you behaved a certain way, you are that way.

I don't think I would be given a pass here for saying, yeah, I did cheat, but it was just those two months and I'm not really like that.

She feels awful - she owns her own shit - that is why she is trying so hard.

How hard are you owning your own shit?

[This message edited by UnexpectedSong at 10:34 PM, July 29th (Monday)]


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
authenticnow
♀ Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 6:06 AM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Crossroads2010,

Please don't answer questions in this forum. It is strictly for BS questions for WSs.

Thank you.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 34740 | Registered: Sep 2007
ArableSands
♂ Member
Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

UnexpectedSong, thank you for your response.

I'm confused though. So I'll cop to all of it being me, the stuff that was pre-cheating. I won't rationalize or justify.

Now having said that, how does her being angry at me help me heal from the cheating? Isn't she supposed to own her shit for willfully choosing to cheat? Show remorse, solve the immediate problem?

Please help me understand.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't understand this AT ALL. I don't understand how he could NOT have been overwhelmed with guilt and shame.

US gave you a great answer. I would ask you, are there things you don't like to feel? Some of us have gotten quite good at dealing with that for a myriad of reasons. We simply don't. Soon as that pain starts to penetrate those walls become steel. Slam!!! You can almost hear it. That's why you read some posts of WS's in a sea of pain sometimes. We're allowing, hell sometimes forcing, ourselves to feel. It's the only way we can't start to heal.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
uncertainone
♀ Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:30 AM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now having said that, how does her being angry at me help me heal from the cheating? Isn't she supposed to own her shit for willfully choosing to cheat? Show remorse, solve the immediate problem?

Her being angry at you is helping HER heal. Her healing is crucial to your reconciliation if you want a health spouse. Has nothing to do with her owning her shit.

Aren't you angry with her even though you admit you hurt her for years? Do you own your shit?

Problems aren't consecutive. I know that the choice to cheat is the immediate issue and that's very understandable.

Realistically, arable sands, you think it's honestly possible for someone to erase years of pain because they started to contribute their own shit to the pile? If they were good at coping with shit there's a good chance you may have been handed exit papers as opposed to her choice to self destruct.

If you want a healthy marriage she needs to work on her choices because of what they've done to her as the front and center goal. She may not be in a place to be horrified because of what her choices have done to you, yet. Years of shit tends to erode another's priority, at times. It sure as fuck did for me.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
ArableSands
♂ Member
Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

uncertainone,

I appreciate the honesty and clarity you've provided.

For the past nearly 4 weeks all I've been reading is how the WS needs to be all remorseful and not blameshifting and totally focused on helping the BS heal. Could one of you WS help explain how we do this? While I understand her need to be angry, it doesn't mix well with the remorse I need to see. Help?


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
UnexpectedSong
♀ Member
Member # 21761
Default  Posted: 5:25 PM, July 30th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For the past nearly 4 weeks all I've been reading is how the WS needs to be all remorseful and not blameshifting and totally focused on helping the BS heal. Could one of you WS help explain how we do this?

My view is completely different. She cannot help you heal. Only you can help yourself heal. What she can do is be safe for you, be transparent, dig into her reasons for self destructing instead of asserting herself in your marriage.

Have you been reading up on the kind of remorse you need to show to start to repair the years of abuse? How do you make yourself a safe environment for her?

Like UO said, problems aren't consecutive. You both need to work on expressing feelings constructively.


WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

Posts: 6046 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: California
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