There is not room in a M for three people unless all three agree to this. There will be no R if your WH is still seeing OW. If he can not go NC with OW then you will need to end the M. He is lying to you and OW. Pure cake eating. Do the IC and start getting ready to be on your own. Do not sit around and wait for him to have his opportune time to dump you.
There are two BWs here in the LTA house that were betrayed for their entire M. Iwantamiracle and M334455. Miracle does not post much anymore and M3 just had a baby so she is not around as often. I do know that miracle often lamented the fact that she did not have any untainted M time. Maybe one of them will chime in and give you their point of view about this. BTW, I don't really consider someone who did not know they were a OM to really be a OM. I guess we need a new term. How about you were a UOM. Unknowing Other Man.
This may sound like a cold approach but when I confronted my WW about her LTA i did so in an email. My reasons for doing this were several. For one, I had a lot to say and I wanted to get it all out without interuption. I also did not want it to be an immediate fight or denial. I wanted to present all my evidence clearly at once so pieces of it were not attacked / denied while it was presented. I wanted to clearly present my expectations for us to continue together. I also wanted my WW to carefully think through her next steps. Finally I wanted my WW to have all of this in writing in case she needed to review my expectations later. For me there is something about the written word that is very powerful as well and I was making a very powerful point. After my email we followed it up with a very long discussion but the email was able to set the direction for me at least. Through-out the last 3 months we have had many discussions, I have also used emails on occassion to also express myself. That is what has worked for me at least.
I wish you strength.
The only thing I haven't tried is just kicking him out and calling it good. It's the one and only thing I don't want to do. Part of it is that he confuses me with lying to me and saying that he wants to stay married and that he loves me, on and on. I don't want to do that until I am ready to accept the possibility that he may just walk out the door. Sometimes I think I would be better off if he just walked. If I had done it right off the bat I would be 2 years down the road of misery and probably on the road to happiness instead. Instead I'm sitting at a "caution" sign and can't do a thing except cry!
I am slowly dying inside, just floating through life and letting it pass me by. I want "me" back, but I can't find her. The only time I'm happy is if I can pretend he's not lying to me behind my back and playing stupid.
Part of me says we have a trip to the Dominican Republic coming up in April and I think I should just take advantage of the trip and then throw his ass to the curb. On the other hand, I would love a trip like that with a man that truly care about ME. So, why go?
Oh, so many dilemas!
So my wife keeps talking about a man in her office, Mike. It reminds me of how she brought OM into my life daily with stories, going on's.. etc. It reminds me of how I let that shit happen right in front of my eyes. Mike has not been successful in business and she tells me he not happy at her office. . . As a comparison to my old life, my wife’s OM had a sick, handicap child, doomed to die in his 20’s and soon. I see comparison of the daily interaction of some very personal conversations. A woman has compassion for others and that is a good value to have but can she, will she fall into a rescue mode. That has been my wife.
I honestly don't understand why a FWS (and I am talking about all of our FWS's not just your W) who has seen the damage caused by their LTA would ever engage in the slightest personal way with a member of the opposite sex if they want to prove they are committed to their M. Now I hope this doesn't sound harsh but it is a very unwise relationship for your W to participate in. You trust your W. Do you trust Mike too????????? Who the hell is he anyway and what are his motives??????? I've been in the workplace and I can tell you from a woman's perspective, there's always a lot of sniffing going on and if your W has learned anything from her LTA, it has to be that engaging in anything remotely personal with a coworker of the opposite sex is very risky indeed. No matter what your W's part in this, Mike could be taking her interest in him and his situation quite differently.
Does she have female friends in the workplace? Are her office coworkers primarily male? Other than business conversations, why is it necessary for her to engage at all in anything personal with this Mike character? Is he M'd too?
The effect of her behavior is giving me unsafe feelings. These feelings may lead me to doing things that are not trust. This is about me, not her.
I'd like to tell you a little something about trust from my own M. When I met my H (who was D'd at the time we met) and we started getting serious he decided to tell me that he had cheated on his first W. In fact, he was a serial cheater and had 3 affairs that he told me about - of course all with coworkers. And, not surprisingly, he made his W out to be the reason he had his A's. Well, initially and naively, I believed she must have been a terrible W. After we married, again not surprisingly, I had issues with trusting him. Yes, it was unattractive and was causing problems. So one day (very early in our M) during one of our discussions my H said something to me that really hit home. He said to me, "If you're going to suspect me of cheating then I may as well cheat." In that moment, I chose to no longer mistrust him and promised to end all my suspicions and worries which I did until D-day. From probably the second year of our M until D-day I gave him my absolute trust and believed we had a wonderful, though not perfect, M.
When I discovered his 8 year LTA, that was one of the first things I threw at him. He asked me to trust him with all my heart and I did and he repaid me by breaking that trust and my heart. It was almost too much to bear. So today, unlike you, I do not give my unwavering trust.
You see, I think those who engage in LTA's are a different breed from S's who have had a ONS or a STA and no matter how "quality" a H or a W is, IMHO those who have had LTA's must have some very deep-seated issues and unless they do considerable work to get to the root of their issues, I think the risk of them falling again remains in question.
She is crossing a boundary I have with my own self and the expectations I have on any woman I marry. It is being too emotionally close to another man.
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 1:35 AM, January 31st (Thursday)]
This is the pain I deal with daily, the struggle that hits me in the face from the MINUTE I open my eyes every morning until I go to sleep at night.
I was NEVER a cheater, I met my BH, we were SO young (19 and 21) I felt so close to him, we talked all the time we talked about everything. He was very quickly the love of my life (still is). How did I get here? How was I not strong enough to stay true to who I am? If I would have been, then being true to my BH wouldn't even have been a question.
That's all I had to say...the above was a quote I heard today and it spoke to me and was something I wanted to share.
Remember I said something that is very important? How you say something is very important.
What you are suggesting is direct pressure verse the new me… escalating pressure.
OF course the old me was direct pressure and back off.,, accept life the way is. Not Good.
Let me see if I can give an analogy of that maybe you can relate. This is about the way 2 type of companies treat each other.
You have a company that is direct. Supervisor says, our engineers have the machine set up, don’t turn that knob. So the new machine operator starts work and does not touch the knob. Then one day, after he feels like he knows his machine, he turns that knob up. He sees it increases output a bit. And guess what? The quality of the product then drops over time. The operator’s supervisor then does his quality investigation and discovers, the knob is in the wrong setting. The supervisor then shows the operator the knob and tells him.. “I told you not to turn that knob” “You don’t respect what I told you. You make one more mistake, you will be fired ” The operator knows he screwed up, he knows he made a mistake. He didn’t realize what he was doing would even harm anyone. The now operator is in fear, now he is in full defense mode, he knows he has no second chance. His emotions are not so good. He may even then go start applying for a different job because now he does not feel good about his supervisor or any opportunity to make a mistake.
Now you have a company that is takes an escalating pressure position. Our engineers have the machine set up, don’t turn that knob. The supervisor then walks over to the machine and can see it is a higher output. He calls the operator over and says, Hey I see the machine is at a higher output. Operator says, yes, I noticed if I turn the knob up, we make more products. The supervisor explains that when you do that, the quality drops. Supervisor then says, “Ok our policy is to write you up and you need to change and operate the machine they way we tell you. Our machines are set-up this exact reason because of hundreds of variables. Please just come get me if you have any ideas. We welcome any suggestion. Hey dude, we all make mistakes. We’ll be ok if you just take your time and follow what we set up” The operator can then understand he crossed a boundary. He is not really in fear. The threat of losing his job is not hanging over his head. He can think about a good idea and change next time calling the operator. He understands. He is emotionally in a good place.
Now, If you are an operator, which company do you think keeps employees longer? Which company is more attractive? Which company has employees that want to be better, understand the why’s? Which company is more pleasant to work at?
I think you can understand the escalating pressure communication process. It is far better emotionally; it is kinder, it is far better to take steps that escalate before the final ultimatum is given. Ultimatums are not very nice, not loving, and not always easy to enforce. When you take an escalating approach to life, you will build on pressure to the point you are prepared to enforce that final ultimatum with confidence… and feel good about yourself. You gave that other person every chance to change. I think you will find a person treated this way will change without them even realize they changed. Plus, they did it by there own choice.
It really is just a way of communication.
I have given many hours of thought to trust. Too me, trust is always a choice. Trust is not a feeling. The ways I trust my wife is not to track her. Not to stalk her. When we do these things, for me, that is worry. Not good feelings. unsafe feelings. Not trusting brings bad thoughts and bad thoughts always lead to bad feelings. I think we can all agree that the happiest marriages have… trust.
Even after infidelity, each one of us must trust our spouses. But most important, we must trust ourselves. I trust that God will present evil to me… and I trust when it does come, I will handle it in the best possible way. We will no longer be naive. I now know bad things are going to happen to me.
And Back to Mike. I am not naïve to attractions people have for each other. It is part of humans. I trust myself that with just the right amount of pressure on my W, I trust she is not going to risk losing me. I trust she will want to make me feel Safe.
I wonder if she is even aware that she is getting too close to this other man at her job.
But my simple issue is a 2 of 10 compared to gotta2know right now… She is 10 of 10.
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:04 AM, January 31st (Thursday)]
Doctor Jen suggest just a very frank conversation.. When they start playing games as up expose. say, “JUST STOP IT. Stop lying to yourself.” Act as if you know, then just move on with what you need.
I can also offer you another way…
First, you are going to have to dig deep and grab every bit of courage you can muster. You can do this. You are going to confront. It is conflict, but your are not going to get rattled. You are taking control of this issue. I will be hard but every one of us have it within us to control our emotions. After all, it is our mind.
Let me say it is far better for a person to confess than to not. There are many reason I won’t go in to… And you already know. The goal in anyone’s marriage should be the most open marriage. You have the chance right now to make your H feel safe, unafraid, and make the change he needs to make. Sharing all can be most rewarding. Complete openness of most things is very good. Yes, the confession won’t be a shock, because you already know he still has this emotional connection for this woman.
Your mind must be in complete fighting mode. You are fighting for your marriage. You don’t give a damn what others think or say. You want your M. That is a very fine personal human characteristic that many folks don’t have. You can be this woman. This is your life and nobody else’s. Your marriage doe still have value. You understand that marriages are not always easy and men make mistakes. Heck, you’ve made mistake and maybe didn’t even know it. But what you do know is what everyone here is telling you. The A must stop and stop forever. You need to adopt a position that yes, you are going to fight, fight fair, in a loving way, and your fight is going to be over the top fair for you H, not necessary fair to YOU. All the same, you understand this going into this plan. In fact, you don’t want to take your mind down the path that he is even contacting the OW. You just don’t care. You are OK with him talking to her.. because the end game is he is going to tell this woman not to call him every again. He is going to do it on his own without you forcing him to do it. If you can achieve this, you can then work real hard on protecting your M forward. And know, it may happen, it may not happen. Life is not always fair.
This is going take some very strong mind strength. It will be a challenge and far harder than just confronting face to face or by a letter.
Ready? This is your plan.
For the next three to four weeks, you are not going to mention anything about his A, nor what you know, how you know, or even your ways of getting the information you get. In fact, you are going keep up the recording without his knowledge. You are making the choice NOT TO TRUST. That will come later. But you are going to take these steps…
Everything you do, say, will be on a positive note. NO NEGATIVE STUFF. If you happen to get negative, just say, hey, I am sorry for being negative. I am working on ME.
You are going to buy a book on forgiving. I liked Total Forgiveness by R. T. Kendall. You can pick any book you want. Then you are going start reading it. However, You are going to leave it by the bed, in the bath room, and make sure you set it down in a place you know your H is going to see that you bought the book. You might even read this book right in front of him. Make sure YOU KNOW he sees it but not too forward or too revealing. Should he ask you what are you reading, “Husbandname, I am learning how to forgive what you have done to me. I plan to learn how and do it.” You say it in a matter of fact way, one line, nothing else said. You are sending him a clear message. You have something special in YOU. Quality is a woman who knows how to forgive. That is attractive.
NO DEEP DISCUSSIONS.. In fact, no deep discussion in the next three or four weeks. If he wants to talk, YOU JUST LISTEN. “Oh yeh?” “ok” “I appreciate that “ NO arguing, no fight, If he gets angry, See my post to RSEB.. If he comes in throwing things for no good reason. You apply heavy force. But I am not sure anger is your issue so you may not have to deal with that.
During this time, You are going to start to remember the things you really loved about him when you first met, good things that happened in the marriage, all good things. These things you are going to just mention them in passing, matter of fact, make it part of normal conversation..
“hey, you remember the time we…” “I will never forget when…”
After about a week, I like 2 weeks.. of total peace… That kind of stuff, you move into phase 2.
Phase 2 will be a series of things in order. Same kind of non-negative stuff these week too but you are going to make him think… Only positive remember! but you are going work in some conversations when the time is right… The following.
The first will be something along these lines… honey, I’m trusting what you said the two weeks ago. YOU ARE GOING TO BE MY ROCK. I want you to be my rock. You know, we can and should be completely open with each other. Do you agree a marriage both people have a MORAL obligation to be open, honest with each other? IT is a question for him to answer. Then just listen. NOTHING ELSE.
Maybe a couple days later.. Honey, do you believe that if a spouse has some very damaging hurtful information, no matter what it is, it should be told? You mentioned Rock.. If you are a rock, I too should be your Rock. Is that the kind of marriage You want? Complete openness? If he tries dodging any answers, Grab his hand in a loving way.. I just want to know.
Then a couple days later… the next question will be like this.. Matter of fact, over coffee, Hum.. I just had a strange feeling come over me. Do you have something you need to tell me?
Then a couple days later… Same thing, matter of fact.. This time, you say, “ya know” Then you just have one of those very long uncomfortable pauses.. looking him right in the eyes.. Make him say “what?” I just have this feeling inside me, it is kind strange. You know I asked you about being a rock? Are you sure you don’t have anything you want to tell me? If he says NO At this point.. Then YOU must respond this way…
“Oh Well, I know I will figure this out whatever it is?” “if you think of anything, let me know”
Let me hope he confesses by this time. Believe it or not, you just put in a whole bunch of pressure. Or at least a good man will feel that pressure. Because if you give him 3-4 weeks of good nice, caring, giving, and maybe even an intimate day or two.. He still is too afraid to break it off, or confess to you.. Just do yourself a favor.. Move on.
Slap papers on him and see if that will wake him up. Simple tell him that you are not a woman that live her life with any man in infidelity. It hurts me you cannot be a ROCK.
Remember, we love ourselves first. Love always protects. We love ourselves to know when we must end something to begin something new, fresh, exciting… Bring on new happy feelings.
We all know this.. The OW must go. You will not get any true R until she is out. This is you H choice to make not yours. But know this.. Whatever you decide to do, how you confront, your Choice will be the right choice. See what your IC says..
You have a choice on your IC. Some are far better than others. There are some that will follow your feelings and guide you that way. The time you need help is distant between sessions. If you go in saying you don’t know what to do, they will give you options. They never tell you what to do. They help you make a choice. They might say one direction might be better for you than the other. But it will still be YOUR choice. Prepare questions.. You know the IC is going to tell you OW must be totally gone. Maybe focus on how to expose and get that expert opinion. The only wrong way really is to do nothing.
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:00 AM, January 31st (Thursday)]
As softly as I can say it, I would think if your wife was aware and is "in" HER journey (because they are all different) then she should be VERY aware of her male "friendships" and she should be picking up on your nudges. I do agree your actions are about and for you, but is she doing her part? We are here as your virtual friends, looking out for you...trying to help you see the trees through the forest.
I had a question too, since I am new to the LTA forum. Did you find out about your previous A at the same time as her recent 9 year LTA? If so was that A dealt with?
Wishing you a good day
I love your post to me! It helps me have some direction. I actually have started trying to be completely cold turkey on the affair topic. I'm trying not to get reassurance from him, nothing. I'm trying to "go forward" as he has asked me to do. I am going to have my counselor support me in the decision to stay married within reason. I'm hoping to be the nice wife until April and our trip to the Dominican Republic that he won. I believe in my heart that I have already done all of the right things to be a great partner. I've done the trips alone, the dates, the special notes, text messages, more emotional and physical contact. I believe I have done what is right to fix this. I have also owned my faults that have led to the affair. I won't own the continuing fair, that is his poor choice.
I think I want to go on this trip and give it my best effort. After this trip, I believe I will have exhausted all that I can give if she is still in the picture. I think I will be ready to file for divorce if he insists on keeping her in his life.
I will continue recording, going to counsling and trying to be the best wife I can. I have lots of times where I am very down and I don't know how to get through those times very well. I have a lot on my shoulders with the state of my marriage and my dad having brain cancer. Worst time of my life.
I get so down I can't function at anything. I am considering trying another depression medication. I was on Wellbutrin but I don't like that you can't have a drink with it (I blacked out).
Thank you for your guidance. Most people think I should just leave, but I can't. I appreciate your idea in how to save my marriage. I understand maybe that isn't possible but I will go down trying and knowing that I have given it my best effort and that if he choses her, good luck.
Thanks so much, please keep posting, you are awesome.
Once you have the “we were not happy discussion” you have given your WS a powerful tool in their arsenal of denial and rug sweeping. The key is that the BS and WS reasons for unhappiness in the marriage are completely different but one has more culpability than the other. WS's that have been in A's for YEARS have either consciously or unconsciously learned how to manipulate their BS's and they have survived and thrived in the A's because they compartmentalize, rug sweep, blame shift, and deflect. It's a survival mechanism they likely learned well before even meeting and marrying us.
Let me explain what happened in my situation. The A I found out about was my W's 3 yr LTA with a coworker. We had been married for 7 yrs at the time. A month or so later she TT'd with the fact she had 1 previous A about a year after we got married. So basically I had 1 year of true marriage and then lies after that. It took me a year after dday to get to a point where I stopped saying WE were both unhappy in the relationship. It took me a year for it to sink in that my W had checked out of the marriage 6 years prior to my Dday. Neither of us could ever be truly happy in the M because there were always 3 people in the M or the lies she told between the A's.
So if your WS is going along with this neither one of us were happy in the M it's because they allowed 3 people to be in your M for so long. This means you weren’t in a true marriage. Your WS was not checked out of the marriage YEARS ago. The reason the BS is not happy is likely because your W has not truly been 100% in your M for years. Think about that for a second. When I started to go over stuff in my head I realized yeah I wasn't happy but it was because I couldn't figure out why my wife and I couldn't get along or her moods were sporadic and I tried for years to make things better. I thought we had "grown apart". Nothing I tried to reconnect or make things better ever worked because no matter what I did a piece of her was always outside and separate from the M and I never knew it. So yeah I wasn't happy but it wasn't because the overall M was broken it was because my W broke the M with her A and never bothered to tell me. She let me wallow in misery while she got her shot of Mr. happy on the side. I tried multiple times over the years to “romance” and “woo” my wife back even went to counseling but I never stood a chance because I didn't have all the information. So eventually I figured this marriage that I have must be what marriage is like. I thought people aren’t supposed to be happy all the time we have the stress of kids and life in general so I suck it up and trudge on through life in a very unhappy manner with some slight crumbs along the way to keep me from leaving. My WS and I got along and never really fought but neither of us was truly happy. Well we couldn't be happy because she checked out 6 years ago and was only staying to cake eat.
My point is my WS never truly owned the A. By saying and agreeing with me that WE were never truly I gave her another way to rug sweep and deny by latching on to the fact that neither of us was happy. The difference is I tried to be happy with her and she chose to find happiness real or fantasy with a 3rd person. Once she was in the A or hiding the previous A she had to keep justifying her actions to herself to keep the guilt and pain at bay and rug sweep so she never checked back in. A WS can never truly own the A if the BS doesn’t make it clear that the M and the A are separate and distinct issues. IMO in most cases with LTA’s the M directly suffered not because of M issues but because the A took place for so long that it CREATED a new set of issues and amplified any issues that were in the M. If a WS in an LTA is truly owning the A then they should be differentiating between the reasons for neither spouse being happy. The unhappiness is not the same and not equal in terms of cause. The WS should recognize the BS’s unhappiness but they shouldn’t latch on to it they should be saying they took away the BS’s option to know what true happiness in the M could have been like by bringing a 3rd person in. Until the WS owns the A and the aftermath completely no one can even begin to work on the M because in the WS mind it’s all the same thing. It has to be separated and it is hard as hell to do that when they have been living this double life for SOOOO long.
As long as you are saying WE weren't happy in the M, the WS will NEVER be able to own it because in their mind they have the crutch of you saying well I wasn't happy either. So it reinforces to them on some level that if they had not cheated you both would still be unhappy. It's the Schoedingers cat deal. Neither of you will ever know if your M would still be in this same spot because the WS was never truly in the M for years and as far as I know no one has invented a time machine yet so the only option you have is to move forward and deal with this mess head on or stick your head in the sand and suffer indefinitely.
So in order to move forward in R after an A that lasted so long the WS has to completely own everything they did. The BH has to do the work of figuring themselves out because whether we admit it or not in an extremely long term A we have been manipulated so long that we become different people as well and it takes time and working on you to become whole/happy again. This is why you have to detach some even while in R. The BS can get their wits about them again and get some perspective while the WS can do the work. If they aren't doing the work you can call bullshit on them and at the same time it lets' you get through all the old emotions and feelings from the dead M. That way if you still choose to R and your WS is doing the work you basically are ready to start over new. The harsh reality is if your WS was in a LTA you really don’t know them as well as you thought. You may as well be dating a different person. So you rebuild your M with new experiences.
This is why you have to keep digging. If your WW is not being 100% transparent with you and still withholding info and your GUT will tell you if she is then they will never be able to own their shit and you will find yourself in false R. It's better to suffer through the finding it all out now than getting down the road 1 or 2 years later and deciding that this is in fact a deal breaker for you. That is why I advocate for finding out everything you can as soon as you can.
I also say keep digging into yourself as the BS even if your WS is doing the work. At the end of the day if you want R then you have to find a way to assimilate all this new and horrible info into your life and move forward. You learn to deal and understand that this is reality. If I choose to move forward that old life and M is gone and I have to make new experiences with my WS that can become stronger than what I had before and honestly if you are in true R they will be because for the first time in a long time you are doing it with a WS that is 100% in the M now. The parasite that was OP is gone. You move forward in addressing pre A marriage issues and open yourself up to new experiences.
I wrote all of this because my W still thinks we are getting divorced because WE were not happy. She still doesn’t get it but that is okay. Soon it won’t be my problem. She can't see that I wasn't happy and never even had the chance to be happy because she was never there. Of course WE couldn’t be happy one of us wasn't 100% in the marriage. What I DID do however was work on myself so that I actually am happy these days. I still have my ups and downs but doing the work on YOU gets you to a point where no matter what happens you are okay in the end.
If you truly want any chance at R with your WS then you have to work on yourself separate from your W. You have to figure out how to deal with the years of betrayal and how to cope and move forward. While your WS is digging into the why and working on owning her shit you need to be working on why you weren't happy. You could and should be happy by yourself while are married. Your spouse, kids, and family, are a part of your life but they are NOT your entire life. So doing the work on yourself gets you to a point where you become an individual again that complements your spouse as you should in a M. If your M ends then you are an individual that can move forward confidently in life and be happy in your next relationship if you choose to have one and also understand what it takes to make and keep you happy as a person regardless of what happens. Too often we put our own happiness and joy in the hands of others when it is 100% our own responsibility. Our spouses complement and contribute to our happiness and joy but they should not BE our happiness and joy.
I have no idea if this made sense or was just a big ramble but thanks for reading if you did.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:02 AM, January 31st (Thursday)]
I can say with confidence my W did her part. My wife did not go to IC. I did. My wife does not post on these site, I do. She may have read Shirley Glass’s book? Or some of it. What she did read was the Five Languages of Love. A must read for everyone. My W and I went to Retrouvaille. Do you know what that is? French word meaning rediscovery. Retrouvaille is no picnic. I have something far more valuable then anyone can ever get for any ole IC. Oh it was very powerful because my W gave it her all. How many letters about feelings do you have? I have about 50. It’s more than just love letter….
First, I want to tell you I am in an amazing marriage today. Today, I could not be in a more loving, caring, giving, intimate and sexual marriage.
The secret to my success is not always what you read on the SI boards. People disagree with me often. Hey, I only share what I have been taught, read and experienced. You should know I participate in a men’s group that discusses both sides.. WW and BS. I just spit out what they think works. It works for some and not for other.
How did your H find out about your A?
Ok.. Let me share that first A. I travel for my job. My W has her freedom even to this day. Opportunity type A for LTA is makes it easier, right? She had her first A. At the time, and this was LONG time ago, the only thing I can remember was her coming home late. I told her, “Look, you are on shaky ground”. It became her secret. I then transferred to Indiana. Over the years, we just end up in cheating discussion. Very casual. At times, Her fears are when I travel I get woman. Never have, but that is her fear. Today, I do things, say things, that I want so she feels safe in every way possible. The subject could be about that. But she could never say… “I have never cheated” in such a way.. my feelings, my gut feelings, said, “I believe that” I never said a word. I allowed my naivety to say nothing. I did not understand how to feel, what to do with those feelings.. It is kinda hard to describe.
Ok fast forward to the day I discovered.. My shock was about as bad as it gets in life. But, one day, I would have to go get my journal to know timing, A thing that popped into my mind.. My feelings I had for a long time. All those discussions we had about cheating. My brain reminded me of those feelings over the years.
See, I was working on all me. (The Secret now exposed) I just thought that if my W was hiding anything, for us to move forward, she needed to share all her sins so I could tell her I am Ok with those. We start fresh; a brand new type marriage and relationship. See, my gift to my W was to somehow set her free from all her guilt. On purpose, by choice and I wanted her to feel good about herself. And I know, it comes at my expense and bad feelings. But would you push your child out of the way of a car sacrificing your own life to save you child’s life? That is me. I don’t know where I got it. It is part of the good me.
One day, I did this when I was out of town and on the phone my plane was late. It was late. I told my W, today I want to free you. You should make sure you think very carefully about what I am about to say. I am doing this for you and me. For years, I had a gut feeling from when we lived in Baton Rouge. It still exists in my soul. I want to end it. I want you to know, no matter what you tell me, I will be home later, I will still be married to you, I will still try my hardest to love you to the best of my ability. No matter what you say, I am going to forgive you, Tell me all the other A’s you have had. She told me. The only thing she did not tell me was his name. She says he was a chef in New Orleans, married, and it had deeply hurt her for many years. Oh, my wife has been through a whole bunch. A man beat her, abortion, and I am pretty sure she had some sort of lesbian thing going on in high school Frankly, I don’t care. She can fix herself.
Let me share a value about me.
but is she doing her part?
Oh I should first mention.. Me, I must know what quality is myself. Because if I was raised like “Hardcore Pawn” people, then I don’t understand getting angry is not a good quality. See, I fix myself.
Ok You know my secret to success. I don’t fix my W. NEVER. She is going to fix herself. I fix ME.
Now you know, men have feeling too. And I protect my feelings. I realize that life may throw me a curve. I am ready for it. Let’s say Mike is a charmer and my wife falls for his attractions. Well by the time she has made her choice, my M was over far before that. The pressure will be pretty intense. You see the pressure here on SI all the time. I am methodical. Are you truly “in touch with your feelings?” I’m pretty sure I understand all my feelings. Retrouvaille training at it’s best. Let’say Mike does move in on my turf. The ultimatum will be in full force about that time. Sure, I will hurt a bit. But I am a fully trained man these days… A catch you might say. Heck, I won’t have any trouble moving on.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:22 AM, January 31st (Thursday)]
If you decide to choose the exposure method I suggested, you just treat you H like he is a new man for this period. When he says something shitty, You can just calmly say, “be nice”.
Let me assure you, if you are a sweetie, always a sweetie, You are not going to have any problem getting a good man.
This is why you have to detach some even while in R.
The WS should recognize the BS’s unhappiness..
Until the WS owns the A
So you rebuild your M with new experiences.
That is why I advocate for finding out everything you can as soon as you can.
This is so critical.
She still doesn’t get it but that is okay.
You have to figure out how to deal with the years of betrayal and how to cope and move forward.
why you weren't happy.
Too often we put our own happiness and joy in the hands of others when it is 100% our own responsibility. Our spouses complement and contribute to our happiness and joy but they should not BE our happiness and joy.
I get you 7years.
I won't have too many times that I will have to say "be nice". I just need to give him the chance to be a "new man" and see how he does. I will have to work HARD not to bring up affair issues and just let it ride in the short term.
You are right, tryinhard, I need to basically do what's right and he can choose to follow along with me or turn his back on me to her. This will give me the right to walk away knowing I've done all I can do and that I deserve to be treated with the respect and dignity that a wife should always have.
I know there is a good man out there waiting for me if he doesn't want to be there for me. I think through counseling and your guidance the strength will come to get off this damn roller coaster and on to a good life.
I will post more as I struggle through trying to give him a chance to prove himself. I get so down sometimes and I just can't bring it up with him anymore. I will post instead!
Thanks again for your support and guidance. I will survive this!
I hear on here often that I need to push to get the details. That often WS try to suger coat the truth and not give these details. My WW did that and I had to push to get some of the information out that I needed. There are other details that I don't want to know - I have reserved the right with my WW to ask more questions if I want to but I really want to carefully think about what details I want.
I know I need to know the why? and the how? to help protect myself going forward. However other questions like very specific what, where and when questions seem to just be a way to torture myself and further taint my past.
For example, do I really need to know if they did it in our bed? It was a 14 year LTA!! They probably did, we are moving soon anyways, I don't really care or need to know. Then there are bigger ones, what about other ONS type A's, certainly a possibility but does it really matter going forward. Another big one, did they tell each other that they loved each other? I haven't asked that cause I just assume that likely they did and don't need to analyze what that might of meant. Then there are the really big ones, am i the biological father of my kids? I have asked this, got my answer yes, but have decided to not go through any testing to prove this to be true. Once you open these bottles of truth you can not put the genie's back in the bottle very easily. I'm scared to get information that I can't take back.
Is the point of asking these questions for my benefit or for the benefit of my WW, because for me I can tell you right now, I don't need to know. I am moving forward, when I look back on the past it is hard enough, I don't need to make it even harder. I don't need to drive around town to recognize places they went to dinner or hotels they stayed at. My WW can torture herself with that knowledge but not me.
Realize I am not talking about transparity going forward, I fully understand that and that is what we are doing. What I am specifically asking is why do I need to know every ugly detail of the past? For some people that may be necessary, but do you think it is necessary for all going through this?
Is the point of asking these questions for my benefit or for the benefit of my WW, because for me I can tell you right now, I don't need to know.
IMO the answer to that question depends on if the WS is completely remorseful or not. The WS already has the entire story in their heads. They know every single detail. If the WS is unremorseful and prone to TT then in those cases the the BS always feel like they are missing something or having some huge detail hidden from them. In my case my WW TT'd forever and never came clean so I never could believe anything she said. In my bid to get her to wake up I kept asking questions over and over because I knew the only way to get her to even begin to face her issues was for her to have to face them. She could never do it. Eventually about the time I gave up on R was when I no longer cared about the details. Another mistake I made was tryign to wake her up in the first place. I should have spent that time working on me, but hindsight you know.
OTOH if my WW had been truly remorseful, offered transparency, been open and honest with me, allowed me to vent without getting defensive then I likely would never have even needed to konw every single detail. Her actions would have showed that she was remorseful and I wouldn't have always wondered what she was hiding from me on that particular day. The fact that she was making herself safe for me would have eventually over ridden my need to know. I got to not needing to know on my own because I realized she would not change and the lies and ommission of truth would not stop. So any additional info became irrelevant. I hope I am making sense. If your WW is truly remorseful, owning her shit and doing what you need to her to do to make you feel safe then if you don't need any further info then it's cool.
What I am specifically asking is why do I need to know every ugly detail of the past? For some people that may be necessary, but do you think it is necessary for all going through this?
I can say looking back now when I found out about the first A is when I really broke. That was the first real TT that she gave me and I never really recovered. That was when she became a pod person in my eyes and I could never recover. If she had been honest with me up front I likely wouldn't have kept asking questions and it really did just spiral downhill for me until I decided I had had enough.
So if your WW is truly remorseful and you are happy with her progress and how you are healing then you absolutley DON'T need to know every single detail. That is completely your choice. The only caveat I will place on it is that as long as you know going forward that if she gets it and is transparent she may freely offer up info in the future. For instance if you drive by a place you may notice her make a look or soemthing and ask what's wrong and she will tell you that's where she did xyz during the A. The further along you get the less it stings but it still stings. also as long as yoru desire to NOT ask questions is not YOU rugsweeping then you are okay. If you find yourself stuffing questions or emotions it's not good. It will come out in other forms. Remember how you heal is up to you everyone is different.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 12:08 PM, January 31st (Thursday)]
What you are suggesting is direct pressure verse the new me… escalating pressure.
I wish I had a little more time but I have my little grandson with me this week but I will, if you're interested, list those things that I would say if I were you using a direct approach. I would make sure not to say them in a threatening way and certainly would not throw out any ultimatums.
One "direct" question I would definitely ask your W if I were you is this, Are you attracted to Mike and has he made any moves on you that I need to be aware of??
One final thought. Your W knows how you feel about her developing friendships with men in the workplace I'm assuming. Could it be possible that she is talking about him to you because she does find him attractive and is looking to you for help??
One thing I have come to believe about WS's is that they are very incapable of voicing their issues and even resistant to doing so. Instead of letting any of us know about their dissatisfaction in the M, they went outside the M to fill whatever void they felt they couldn't with us. For those who haven't done the personal work (not the M work!) and haven't learned how to be open about their feelings, both positive and negative, admitting to a former BS that they find someone attractive might not be the easiest thing to do - hence, my thought that this is your W's way of trying to tell you something. Of course, I could be totally off base but it was a thought that crossed my mind that I hope you won't mind me mentioning.
Finally one last question before checking in on my sleeping grandson -
How does your W feel about your time on here? Does she mind that you talk to all of us females about personal issues and thinks then that this is not so different from what she is doing. Do you tell her about us and if so, what is her reaction??
Ok, really gotta go for now. I hope you know as RSEB has said (Welcome btw!), "we are here as your virtual friends looking out for you"!!!
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 12:15 PM, January 31st (Thursday)]
If there is any way I could help you let me know. I'm lurking rather regularly. Iwantamiracle and I are both still married.
No doubt you are very wise to pick and choose what you want to know. Me? I know enough and I got far too much. Like 7years says, it is up to you. My wife must have had sex with her OM near 500 times. Can you imagine that? Point is, I agree with you, it can be over the top.
I think the important thing for you to know that your mind will race through all these thing over and over. Our minds do this for a reason. You just get to the point none of it matters any more. You just say, OK they did it all, the love you’s, sex positions acts, etc.. I does not matter what it was, that was then, and today is today.
It is important to know how they tricked you. Things like.. they left about 30 minutes early and came home at 6:30. It would happen mostly when I was out of town. She would say she’s gong shopping and then meet him. How it started so you can see now see the warning signs. That kind of stuff is important.
FNF.. I think you are getting it. A direct approach could be pressure. I would certainly say the question you ask is pressure. This question
Are you attracted to Mike and has he made any moves on you that I need to be aware of??
Although, I think she got it. When she came home the other night, we talk for a few minutes every night over a wine or whatever. I ask if Mike was there. She said, yes. I gave her kind of a shit grin and said.. Oh. Her facial expression was exactly what I needed. Oh I think she got it. LOL…Nothing about Mike last night. Exactly what I wanted. I don’t want to here about that man. Heck, If she has feeling for him.. Have at them honey, your choice, your decision.
If my W asked me that question, I might be greatly offended, especially if I was just in casual conversation with a woman at work. Hey, You think I am trying to hustle her? Which leads to more BS..
How about this one for some pressure.. I know it won’t come to this, but here goes…
“Honey, I want our marriage to be the loving, nice, giving, caring, intimate and sexual. Now I want you to stop getting close to Mike. How you would feel if I called Valerie at work, text her, told you her personal family problems? I don’t do that, I you are not going to do that to me. Now get your head back in our marriage or you might not be in a marriage. You got that? Now, I am going to take a run. When I get back do you want to rent a movie?” If she is up in the hot tube sulking about that comment.. So what. By that time I might not be so trusting.
Now it takes a whole bunch of practice to get good at this. A whole bunch of things happened in that one comment. But I can assure you, it works.
You see what I am saying. Now some may think this is a game. What it really is.. is communication.
How does your W feel about your time on here?
BTW.. It works on a whole bunch of different things you might be unhappy about in your marriage. Go test it out!
[This message edited by trynhard at 1:26 PM, January 31st (Thursday)]
Twelve years ago I put down a dog I owned before I met FWW. He had been a sweetheart with the kids. Part the dog was in pain and old, part he never adjusted to FL, and a big part because of her complaints about his shedding (golden retriever) and loss of house control.
Twelve years ago my W and MIL put down our golden retriever. Hip cancer. I was out of the country on work and it was a month later that my W told me. We got this dog as a new born shortly after we were married and W became pregnant with our DD a few months later.
I like dogs and this one was W idea. But being pregnant, W could not stand the dog - smell, shedding and training did not occur as we were focused on our soon to be born child.
Thus, dogs were not going to be part of our life again. Cats became the family pets. Then DS began to ask for a dog. This was not going to happen - W said no - and I had long ago accepted that a dog was not going to be part of our family.
Then, DDay. And discussion resumed about getting DS a dog for a pet. W knew, and I told her, that if we D then I would take care of the dog. No problem. So we adopted a one year old golden retriever from a rescue shelter. My "consolation" prize. W was unable to apologize, truly apologize for her A and the dog was a "gift" to me in lieu of the apology.
Greatest gift! This dog has brought so much joy to DS. W does not like dogs (smell, shedding, destructive) but truly cares for this one. Hey, the dog has a nicer mattress to sleep on than mine. And this is after he ate the first three we bought for him.
And this dog has experienced his own life trauma. Moved from place to place until we adopted and have kept him as our own. This dog is absolutely terrified of cars and this must be the reason he became a rescued dog. On a walk, he sees a moving car and plops down - will not budge.
This dog has been a blessing! DS happiness. W's care and my joy. This dog has eased my burden over the past two years.
ats.. I am sorry, so sorry. This pet may have been your W's choice to have but I am sure the pet was not part of her Wayward past.