I can't love him out of his affair.
Ok board… think about his.. You can give a person the opportunity to… Change.
This can be done in different ways. It can come with one ultimatum.. You change or the consequence is I am done.
1) A man changes when the final ultimatum is given
2) A man will decide not to change.
You can start with a plan of very light pressure.. light pressure with light consequences.. medium pressure… medium pressure with consequences.. to heavier pressure.. to heavier pressure with consequences.. to final ultimatum an final consequence. The end.
Both end with the final ultimatum. True.. but the latter is a different way. A person can make the choice to love along the way to the final ultimatum.
The results? The change? Who knows! God only knows.
1) A man will see that his W is loving him.. He feels the added pressure along the way… despite the evil he is in.. he decides on his own, by his own choice, he wants his family, his W’s love, his assets, he does not want to be “that man” any more. He dumps his A and now changes his life to only love his W forever.
2) A man changes when the final ultimatum is given
3) A man will decide not to change.
Now, can you understand you can love someone out the A?
There is a ICR threat on.. Topic: For Those Who Found Out Years Later.. This serves as proof to what I am saying. There are men who have cheated, without any pressure (maybe pressure placed on themselves), no exposure, who made the choice to end an A on their own. A spouse might discover years later, but it is FACT that people change and can want to end an A without any ultimatums. Why? It is possible that they “got it”. They finally understood that what they were searching for.. was what they already had. My W and I rented a great movie last night called Touchback… A story of something missing in a man who finally discovered it. It was LOVE that did in fact bring him out!
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:38 AM, February 2nd (Saturday)]
My FWH did end his affair 6 years before I found out. Big effen' deal. He was just a dry adulterer. He did absolutely nothing to change his brokenness and, in fact, still blamed me for his cheating. His stopping his affair had nothing to do with me and my love for him. It had everything to do with his fear. No, he didn't "get it".
I am sure there are some cases where the WS ends the affair, fixes themselves and goes on to be the best spouse evah, but sadly, I feel they are very few.
I am positive if he had found another opportunity where there was a 100% guarantee that he could cheat and not be found out, he would have jumped on it like a flea on a dog.
eta: the problem I see for gotta is that she will be opening herself up to much more pain with the game plan (rugsweeping!!!!) she has going on right now. gotta feels she is too needy to do the 180 right now, but, really is her WH there for her in any real way? How can a liar be comforting in anyway shape or form? IDK, maybe for some they can compartmentalize all that crap, but for me, there would be absolutely no comfort being taken from my WS when I know that they are fucking someone else.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:51 AM, February 2nd (Saturday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
I have read many of your post over the years. You are a confident powerful quality woman who any man would be blessed to have. I value you.
I am sure there are some cases where the WS ends the affair, fixes themselves and goes on to be the best spouse evah, but sadly, I feel they are very few.
How can you say Gotta’s man is not one of the few?
See, I am taking Gotta’s position from a point of love.
I can vision Gotta’s H as a good man as a good man inside, deep within himself he has it to be a quality man.. One who will believe in fidelity. She can with knowledge, love this man right now for a few weeks. She can show him she does have it within herself to forgive him. She can show him what he can have.. like they once had. Then if he chooses to rugsweep, she can add pressure until she completely 180’s him 100%.
By then, I am sure she will have the confidence to make him not part of her world.
Gotta is one smart woman.. I know already. She will see it. But along the way, she has the ability to control her own emotions, control herself to not get rattled, because she understands exactly what she is doing.
She can take a position, a choice, to know she is going to give her H one more chance to give reciprocity. She is going to take a different approach then the180… She is going behave in a loving way and then look for reciprocity. With every bad behavior she corrects it with a healthy conflict. She does not have to trust right now. She can keep the VAR and see if he makes the choice to love… And if not, add pressure along the way. A man can change in about 12 weeks.
How good would Gotta feel if she heard on the VAR her man tell the OW.. Look, I have decided to give my M another chance. Pretty powerful.
0110 made a point to say that some men after a kiss might feel.. Wow, I dodged a bullet. He might quit for awhile then come back for more. If you are not naďve, fully aware, keenly aware like 0110 is today.. of the relationship, I think you have a good chance you will know.. It is some sort of feeling we get. We can be aware of it an not live in misery along the way. We can also trust God will let us know.. A man cannot love two woman at the same time in a complete way. Does it mean you still won’t be tricked? Nope. Maybe we don’t know complete love ourselves. Or how about this.. I don’t care if I am tricked. Such is life. Life is not fair.
But you can still feel good about yourself you gave your man every opportunity to return love. If he does not, nothing we can do about it. We go find a happy single’s life or another quality man.
Gotta can also take a position of not loving too. I would say the 180 is clearly about taking away blessings, taking away love.. When you take away love.. you do not love.. The law of reciprocity kicks in. I say the most likely consequences will be you are not going to be loved in return. However, the 180 is an ultimatum.. It says.. How does it feel not to have my love. When a man can now see how it feels not to have the woman he M love him, he might then change to a man who wants her love again. He might start being a quality man. But a man being 180’s might also believe “it’s over” too. He might feel he had no chance to repair his sin. Unless during the 180 you reward good behavoirs.. I need to go review it again.
Yep.. we all have something within ourselves.. We need to be loved.
She does not have to be naďve based on who he is today, but this man can change. Love always hopes. Love is always a choice. She can hope he one day soon he decides to love her like a M is suppose to be.
No doubt her H is a liar right now base on evidence she has.. But nobody feels good about themselves when they lie. Not unless you are a sociopath. Yes, her H cannot possibly feel good about himself right now. I know based on her post he is very scared. How she treats him, what she says to him is very important.
As for her pain. Pain is part of life. I can imagine pain dealing with my father dieing and M infidelity at the same time. On a scale of 10, She is a 10 of 10. She cannot get to an 11.
Things are going to change for Gotta soon. One thing I know, her feelings can only go up! Her good days are in front of her. Her father may pass, her M is going to change.. either she is going to be M or not. I know this.. She is going to walk away from this with her head held high. If she continues to work through this in a loving way.. she won’t have any doubts.
There are people that do the 180.. A BS gives up hope and D. People who cheat, make mistakes have no idea how to fix it the damage done. They don’t know how to love obviously. They have no idea how to be attractive after they make such a horrible choice. They feel as if the mistake is so bad, how can anyone forgive them for what they do. They give up.
One spouse can know good love more than the other. Pressure is a way that give the one who is not loving a chance to change and now know and execute good loving.
Gotta can give her H a great blessing.. She can show him he does not have to give up. She has the power to love him. That is her choice. She understands that people make mistakes.. If she can understand how to love in all the right ways, she can have a better love…
It take an awareness you have that ability.. if you so choose.
And sometime it works.. sometime it does not.
This is about me, my belief, my values.. I know I used Gotta as an example.. She can follow or not.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:16 AM, February 2nd (Saturday)]
I think that maybe there is a difference as to how and why men and women have affairs.
But, I do NOT believe that rug sweeping is the answer for any betrayed wife.
The affair will not end or if it does what will happen is what Sistermilkshake described- a dry drunk kind of mind set.
You can work on 'loving' your WS when they become a FWS!
They have to stop the behavior in order to even begin the process of reconciling.
If there are no consequences for their actions and everything is kept secret and hidden and there is no accountability there will be no change.
I have been dealing with this since Jan 2007.
I have read every single book out there.
And have spent many hours on this site as well as another site for a number of years before I found SI.
I have read countless heartbreaking stories but have never read one that follows the scenario that you describe.
Whenever you read about a BS forgiving too soon, rug sweeping, not wanting to confront, or hurt or embarrass the WS....a few months later you read that the afair had gone underground, or had started back up again, or the WS had found a new OM/OW.
My WW's OM1 ended 2 1/2 years ago with the PA after many, many years of them together because he had to move. My WW maintained contact on some level with OM1 but the PA was over. What did she do when this ugly part of her life was over? Well she started with OM2 is what she did. The circumstances of OM2 are much, much different but it just shows even when the opportunity to change was there she could not do it.
Expecting a WS to change on their own or only with slight pressure is never going to happen in these LTAs. Maybe I could see a very short A that happening rarely but never with a LTA. These WS in a LTA have set their behavior after years and years, it is going to take far more than a slight nudge to get them to change.
I see tryn as merely recommending a 'ramped up' utlimatum, with the betrayed spouse showing loving behaviors rather than just a single confrontation. They both get to the same result, but with a different sense of timing.
I get the sense that tryn's approach might work with someone who might have trouble backing up the ultimatum. It allows a warming up to it perhaps.
Plus, the same increasing pressure can be used to move the WS toward therapy for example.
On another topic, where does conflict avoidance come from? My MC told me yesterday that she suspects my WW was a victim of some type of sexuao trauma from long ago. I feel overwhelmed.
That's why IC is often needed to help them in recovering and healing.
The infidelity has to end but that alone is not enough there has to be real internal changes made in the WS order to be able to reconcile.
In my FWH's case the MOW was what I would consider a female sex addict and I'm sure that was due to some kind of trauma or abandonment issue from her youth.
Another problem with not implementing the 180 with an actively cheating WS.... how can you maintain a loving relationship without sex?
and how could the BS continue having sex with someone that is screwing around?
what about STDs? let alone the psychological damage of living like this?
I always like when people say, take what works for you and leave the rest. There are so many different stories and different ways of getting through this. Gentle pressure would have never worked in my situation but I feel like I was still loving him, even though I was dying inside.
Honestly -- I cried every day for about a year and a half. About 6 hours a day for the first 6 months. I probably cried a total of 2000 hours. Like a whole year's worth of work.
So, I can really get "not being in a place to make a decision."
I can't even say that I've made a decision. Who says I have to decide in one day or one year or even three years? I'd been embroiled in a nine year lie when I found out. I reserve the right to take my own sweet time deciding.
It's not an emergency. As I said, when I decided not to D immediately -- what's the worst thing that can happen? The same damn thing that's already happened?
However, when you do eventually decide, you won't be able to "love him" out of it. It just doesn't work. Try reading "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson. A good read.
what's the worst thing that can happen? The same damn thing that's already happened?
On another topic, where does conflict avoidance come from?
In Deeps world - unfortunately the car was saved from the flood so no joy there.
I am so very sorry for all the pain and loss you are going through, Deep. It is so unfair that you do not get to see your children and how slowly things are progressing. I have nothing nice to say about your WW, so I will say nothing. Wishing you peace and serenity, Deep. You are a good man. (((deeppurple)))
MC has this right..
I see tryn as merely recommending a 'ramped up' ultimatum, with the betrayed spouse showing loving behaviors rather than just a single confrontation. They both get to the same result, but with a different sense of timing.
“I like not feeling like I need to boot my husband out because of his affair and I also believe that I need to give my marriage every effort”
Too me, this means she understands the nature of all relationships. She is coming at this because she is loving.. Love is patient, Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. All choices.
“I am not ignoring what he has done, it hurts like hell.” She know love.. Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing.. She understands this.. She is not rejoiceing or ingorning.
So, I suggested an option. The option I give her is one from a very loving position. An option that is Love.. Love is it is not arrogant or rude.
Me.. I know Gotta2know is one heck of a great woman. I can only hope her H will see his way to see it too. He’s with her everyday and a stranger on the internet can feel this. He is going to see the truth soon. Love rejoices with the truth. The truth might mean she has it with a quality man. Love never ends.
She has a trip planned to the Dominican Republic coming up in April.. I would say by then her H will have dumped the OW on his own choice if she continues to first demonstrate she has it within her to forgive, is attractive, and begins some pressure.
“how could the BS continue having sex with someone that is screwing around?”
Because they want to, by choice. My bet is that Gotta2know’s H still wants to have sex with her. She has a great opportunity to place a whole bunch of pressure on her H should SHE decide to bless him with the love of sex.. when he asked for it and she agrees..
H starts to make his moves…
Gotta, “honey, here is a condom”
H, “what do we need that for?”
Gotta, “Honey, I love myself. When I feel safe enough that all has ended with you making the kinda of choices that jeopardize my life, I might again feel Ok with giving you the real me. Now, let’s rumble!”
H, “I am not doing that.. blah blah blah..lie lie lie”
Gotta, “honey, you don’t want to rock my world?”
Love is always a choice. And if Gotta is going to choose to take the suggestion I made that may end her H’s A, she must be very clever.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:04 AM, February 3rd (Sunday)]
No, Sister Milkshake, to the best of my knowledge the affair was over. There is never any way to know for sure, of course.
I still think it's super-gross that I unwittingly slept with someone who had already slept with someone else the same day. It's just gross.
Condoms don't reliably protect you from anything -- including a 5th baby
The drugs. I am not a pro but I am not a big believer of drugs as a crutch.
So last December, I was ready to deal with my life, move forward, stop wallowing in my sorrows. I stopped taking the anti-depressants and dark clouds started to recede. My enjoyment of life and its beauty has improved so much.
Drugs do affect the chemical balances in our brains and our perception of life. That is why they are prescribed. For me, anti-depressants are NOT helpful.
My wife and I both went on an AD. They definitely change brain chemistry and feelings.
My wife believes drugs are a great refuge.
In January, I told her how much better I felt, how much more I was enjoying life, how much I was healing from her A. Her reply "I am not going to stop taking mine!" followed by "where did you get that happy pill?".
But only when I started to behave in a far more forgiving, loving, caring way, she decided she did not need them.
My W has told me how happy she was during her A. My W was not on AD during the A. My W has told me of the excitement of the chase (trying to be together), receiving a text (validation?), maybe it was a mid life crisis?, and our MC told her how secretenivess (sp??) can affect the brain chemistry and give one a "high".
So, I agree with Tryin that the way one is treated can give the same comfort, joy as any medication though much much better.
My two cents and personal experience. W is still on AD.
In our sex therapy class, our therapist made this commit I once posted here. Some of the men here on this LTA board were a little offended. “Not me” they said. Can I test you? It might give you some food for thought to accept and forgive.
The second one. A negative cannot be proven. I am not a thief. That is true as long as I have not stolen. So I can be tempted, placed alone with a large amount of cash of unknown amount. No one would know if I took some of it. I do not take any. So, I am not a thief. That only tells you about my past - nothing about my future.
My W was faithful - until she had her A. My W tells me that she will never have an A again. And that will be true for as long as she remains faithful.
The only thing that is true (for h&c) is that I have remained faithful to my W through this point in time. Though I intend to remain faithful to my W forever and my past shows that is likely to happen, it is not a guarantee.
For those watching the Super Bowl this evening: enjoy the show and enjoy those who you share it.
I'm not sure how to handle all of this. I think I am siding with tryinhard's thoughts and guidance on my mess. I think the 180 is impossible for our situation. I've tried it a little here and there and he always accuses me of checking out on the marriage- I don't get the result I want. I think it will lead to him running out the door and blaming me which I just can't take right now. I can't take the blame. I also don't like the withdrawing and cold attitude required for the 180, I am so down I just can't carry on in my house that way. Maybe it is a little rug sweeping but I need time to build myself up to deal with the crap that's under there. It will be dealt with eventually.
I am going to try being the best wife I can be until after the trip. I am going to give him every opportunity to see what he has right here in his own home. He has a loving wife, children, home, and a lifestyle I believe he thinks is pretty important. I think by me doing what's right and giving him the opportunities to see that I am a good wife worthy of him being honest with that I will, in the end, believe I am the best wife ever and if he doesn't choose me it's his loss. I won't have the feelings that I should have done this and should have done that. I will be able to walk away with my head held high and he can have her. I will have done everything I can control, he has to do his part.
Parting ways will be very hard and I hope it doesn't come to that. I read another post about being jealous of the AP and I have been very jealous and really struggle with this. One post hit it right on the head and I do believe morals are important to my husband (even though he doesn't have many right now). This person posted why be jealous of the AP when they would cheat on their own spouses, destroy theirs and your family, lie, sneak around, be deceitful, on and on. And I agree- these people that cheat are not quality people and if our spouses think the grass is greener over there - go and try to keep up with all the weeds that fester in that yard. My yard is pure with very few weeds!
I just need some time to get some strength under my feet. I don't have a lot right now. I could be setting myself up for a big disappointment in the end but I feel like confrontation with him right now isn't the best option for either of us or our marriage.
I have been with this man for 20 years and I believe that he is a quality man who has lost his way. I hope to get him back on track. When he talks to me about this stuff he can be very understanding of how it must feel, etc., etc. On the other hand, he is also very defensive, probably scared, of where we are headed. He gets angry for discussing it and asking questions, being down about it, on and on.
I guess for myself I have to know in my heart that I have done all I can do right and then I can walk away. I hope he comes around before then. I have heard some very scary comments on my recorder about their relationship so I know I am taking a big risk here but I can't make that decision to divorce just yet. I'm hoping with my positive actions and the counseling that after the trip to the Dominican in April, the answers will be there for me.
I am going to try being the best wife I can be
First one is that the "100% guarantee that your S will not know" is irrellevant. One of my favorite quotes is "charater is what you do when no one is looking".
[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 6:34 PM, February 3rd (Sunday)]