Have you are your BH gone to MC together after d-day?
My opinion on reconciling after a LTA is that basically the old marriage has to die and you have to create a brand new marriage.
You can look at it as a fresh start or a new beginning.
Would you consider sitting your BH down and saying that to him?
How do you think he would react?
That's what has happened in my marriage.
Valentine's Day is an example.
We never really celebrated it before d-day.
Both of us thought of it as a made up Hallmark holiday.
But, like so many other things about our marriage-post d-day things have changed.....
and now we celebrate Valentine's day.
Any chance to celebrate our love for each other is a good thing.
My suggestion would be not to hold a grudge about Valentine's day.
It's hard to tell from what you said exactly what was going on with your BH.
Was he just forgetful? a little clueless?
or was this intentional because he is still dealing with the hurt post d-day?
I think you'll have to talk about it.
I might just keep on doing what your doing.
For tomorrow, buy yourself some nice flowers, lilies smell so good, and treat yourself to some nice chocolate. Enjoy!
Your guy is stuck. I am stuck too, but in a different way. Just don't give in, but I must say don't tell him what to feel or do. Screw your validation from him, u got six years of it.
Go validate yourself with treats per above. Reward yourself for all the effort u are putting in.
By the way, my daughter told me that Feb 13 is "Happy Deseration Day"....comes from a tv show.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:55 PM, February 13th (Wednesday)]
You asked about MC. We have gone I would say about 20 times since DDay, and it was more of a result of me "dragging" him. He has yet to go to IC, and I have learned I can't make him go, that is up to him.
The MC appointments were always sporadic, even though my BH said he felt better after our sessions. He really likes our MC, but she does not take insurance and at $150 a session my BH was not a happy camper. At the insistence of my IC, I asked our MC to lower her rate because at that point I wss afraid of my BH's depression. She agreed to $75. So now at my insistence for our M, I have kept to the plan of every 2 weeks, we have been 4 times so far.
I too agree about having a new M. Every time I have said that to BH he gets angry. He won't say it, but I have often said that it is as if he "admits" to not being "quality" all those years then it is as if it gives me justification for my actions. He doesn't want to admit that there can be some changes on his part as well. He says he gave me his best, that is who he is and he is not going to change.
My view and what I have shared in MC is that I don't want to rehash our weekly arguments in MC, I want to find new ways to communicate effectively in our M. My BH gets very angry about that because he feels like "NOW" you want to work on fixing things etc.
Dealing with this years Valentine Day is all I was thinking about, but when he scheduled that job which means he will be home at 7pm or so and back to bed by 9pm it truly hurt. Why should I slave at a nice dinner when the kids will be done eating by then, we will be in kids shower time, getting ready for bed mode by that time. I feel as if he wants to hurt me, make me pay for what I have done.
MC Jack, I bought myself flowers last Valentines day when I was in Costco with the kids, I felt SO pathetic, it didn't feel celebratory. Thank you for your ideas though, it sounds good on paper, but I am so consumed at the moment by my BH that it wouldn't do any good, possibly counter productive. Secondly I wouldn't want my BH to worry that the MOM would have sent me flowers or something considering I am home alone all day today. Yes, that is a thought that I am sure would cross his mind.
I wish, I wish for love, I wish for forgiveness, I wish for happiness...but wishing doesn't make it so.
In relationship since Feb 1984
Married July 15, 1997
4 kids, 16YOD, 15YOS, 11YOT boys.
[This message edited by Smittygds at 9:06 PM, January 20th (Sunday)]
So.. Your Man said..
He gave the whole story about “we don’t need a day to say we love each other blah blah blah”.
You are wrong to say this about YOU…
I don’t have many rights as the WS
Remember the hint I gave you about a method of communication? Remember, the new you is willing and wants to be a much more open woman. You are going to be open without emotions, hurt, and this is going to be very matter of fact.
You don’t need to be harsh or even get into a argument, fight, or even spell these out at MC.. This is about you learning to be a better communicator.
First.. your positive is going to come back. We all have feelings going up and down. You should feel real good about yourself because you are about to be a quality woman in every way. Remember, YOU MUST be a quality woman in every way along the way.
1) This is always first. You are firm, you have courage, you have strength.. and it starts with what YOU want. You say what you WANT. WANT is the key word.
2) You must put that person in your place so he might feel what you feel. It can be done with a situation they have been in, you have been in, others have been in..
3) Consequences! You must make sure he knows the consequences of his behavior.
4) DEMAND it stop.
5) Be the quality woman and never behave this way so YOU can set by example your own behavior.. I don’t’ treat you this way, I will not be treated the same
6) FINAL.. RESET the moment. This is very important. It must always take place. You do things to get out of the emotion… RESET it back to peace.
RSEB.. You as a quality woman have a responsibility. You can bury, post your feelings all you need to but that is not going bring you closer to your H, nor him close to you. The new you however should place some pressure on him. Good conflicts have good outcomes.
I would call him up.. now you can put this in your own words…Let’s follow the above communication technique. It would go something like this.. Practice it a few times. Don’t let him interrupt you, if so, stop him and say..let me finish.
1) You are going to tell him what you want. It does not matter what he wants.
“honey, I want to be treated special on V-Day. For your information, this day is special for woman and even our daughter”
2) “Imagine if you wanted me to come to a work event where all the spouses were attending to reward the employees and I told you.. I don’t need to be there to support you.. blah blah blah..”
3) “I am a woman. A woman wants and needs V-day and you rejecting me on V-Day is behavior that pushes me away from you. The opposite of making us closer, more intimate, more caring, giving and even more sexual”
4) “I made it my life TODAY, to be a good woman to you and you are going to be a good man to me. Do you get that?”
5) “Now, YOU get a pass this valentines day, But I want you to never forget this moment. I will take you up on a Friday night date and we are going to get back to a loving, more caring M. I look forward to that on Friday”
Then.. YOU LET HIS SAY WHATEVER. Just listen. No smart ass remarks, nothing negative, nothing. At the end, just say. “I will see you later.”
You have to read very carefully the way I said it above… Your theme in life should be…
I am only going to be with a man who is loving, caring, giving, intimate, and romantic to me. I will make it fairly known to my H that this is what I want. There are consequences to others treating me poorly. I will give it my all.
What you just did when you communicate this way was..
You are expressing your need
You are doing it in such a way maybe he can now relate to it
You are asking him to stop
You are keeping him safe, you are telling him this conflict is safe.
It does not matter his feelings concerning V-day. This is not about him. This is about you. It is a part of our society, our tradition, V-day is a romantic day. I can assure you, had you divorced him, and another woman entered into his life, he would not treat that woman the same way. He would be all over it then. It is not right, but it is fact with M men. V-Day is just not important to us men other then we want to a sexy wife, woman to give us sex. That is our need.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:34 AM, February 14th (Thursday)]
Thank you so much for posting, I have been waiting for guidance. Just to update, just 20 minutes ago, even after not really speaking last night and not hearing from him today I just texted him. I wrote:
"TO MY VALENTINE, MY LOVE...THRU THICK AND THIN, THE UPS AND DOWNS, I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU, ALWAYS BE BY YOUR SIDE. YOU ARE MY EVERYTHING. I LOVE YOU ALWAYS"
Should I not have done that? My guilt from my A always gets the better of me. I am a nurturer, always have been. I felt I had to comfort him because I am sure he is hurting.
And I WILL tell my BH what you went over in your post, but I KNOW with all I am that he will throw back at me about my A, and NOW all this is important...How do I address that?...or do I just ignore it?
Thanks so much
"HEY SWEETHEART I'M NOT IN A GOOD PLACE. I APPRECIATE THOSE WORDS. IT HELPS. I'M FALLING AND LOST AGAIN. NOT TRYING TO HURT YOU"
It is kinda of an.. I'm sorry. He is working on his own strenght.
Ok.. lets look at this in a very calm way.. how can you react?
Let go back to that communication method I discussed. It might need some adjusting base on things going on. He is saying he needs building up.
1) “Honey, You are my man and no other will EVER fill your shoes. I value you greatly today. I love your touch, your smell, your strong arms, your courage dealing with my failings. I (want) us to now develop our M into a very caring, giving, loving, intimate and romantic relationship.
2) (put him in a good place to relate) Remember that time on the trip we made together, how you did this or that? This is were I want us BOTH to be again. That is the good we had and always had.
3) If we love each other to best of our abilities, love will always win. I promise to do that and (consequences) we both will be in a much better place.
4) I want us to have a great V-day, you know what woman want on this day.. it is simple to give any woman it.. You can do this.
5) We are going to have a great moment. I am going to enjoy you either today or on Friday.
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:49 AM, February 14th (Thursday)]
When he goes silent, down and depressed, you can find ways to laugh together. You do something different and fun. Entertaining. This will open the door for you to bring on a healthy conflict that will lift him out of his depression.
You are doing the work and I can admire you so much for that. You can lead your man back to being a lion beyond lions. A man is always the leader in all relationships but sometimes in life we need a mom. LOL.. You build him up, you won’t be a mom for long, you will see the man I know is within him.
Trynhard I read your last reply as well, your revamped advice gaging by my BH text. I loved your words, brought me to tears, I actually bought a blank V Day card fore my BH, and I am going to fill it with what you suggested me to say in your post. I had a scrap paper of my ideas of what to write, but your line of thinking is loving, positive and hopeful, for us, for our love and for our M....that is what we both need right now.
Since D Day he has never gone to IC and MC is sporadic at best with my urging.
He does not and has not taken one step to try and create a new M.
I think you need to sit down and make a list of all the good in the M and all the bad. My sex therapist says women are unable to make that list but you can try.
Is it because you cannot stand to see him cry?
Is he a late person?
Is he selfish with money?
Does he never give you words in different ways to build you up?
Is he a bad dresser? Does not groom well?
Is every word out of his mouth negative, down?
Is it he shuts down and not talk to you?
Does he tell you what to wear and not wear?
Does he demand you do this chore or that chore on his timing?
Does he roll over touch you on your hot demanding needing his sex you just giving him the chore sex?
You pick out the greatest need he is not filling and I know you can get him to fill it. If not, that is his choice, not yours. He is going to pay the consequences too.
Ok.. now for several weeks now you have been very giving, not confrontations, trying your best to fill all his needs.. Now the real work begins.. It might be very pleasant along the way.. it might not.
I think V-day has got you a bit rattled. Do not get rattled. You can control these emotions.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:22 AM, February 14th (Thursday)]
And I WILL tell my BH what you went over in your post, but I KNOW with all I am that he will throw back at me about my A, and NOW all this is important...How do I address that?...or do I just ignore it?
When you are ready. You are going to invite him to execute forgivingness. It might be a series of events or communication. They are going to start off very light.. the lighter the better. So light, they might go right over his head. They are going to gradually increase in pressure. You have to remember that it is not easy for anyone to forgive over adultery. Our minds are trained that those famous last words, “I do” are forever.. but they just are not.
We need to start thinking about your first invite.
Me, I like this approach… You take your H for a walk in a wooded park maybe with a bench. You hold his hand and just enjoy the walk and then just sit on the bench.. You are going to be ready and practice this…
The prayer is very powerful.
“Lord, I have betrayed you lord. Forgive me. I have betrayed this great man next to me. Please give my H the strength to forgive me. The hurt in my soul is deep. Please help me move in a better place. “
Then you are going to look your H square in the eyes and says.. “This will be hard for you but know love always preservers. I am appealing to you and asking you to please, never again mention my failing you. I can never be reminded again of my A. I hurt to my bitter core. I am forgiving myself because I know God gave his own life for me. My failures. I am going to love myself enough to only be with those who will forgive me. I have apologized to you. If you cannot forgive me, I understand. If you must mention my A again, I understand.
See what that gets ya. You would mean the above? yes?
This is what you just gave him.. Can you feel this song? He needs this so bad with some deep feelings.
I got three of those.
You see what I included? I invited him to forgive me, not demaned. It is his choice. You told him a key part of forgiving, not to make anyone feel guilt. Say it slow and make sure he hears it. You will be crying. It might seem like the Consequences are controlling but they are not. You are giving him a choice. There are right things in life and wrong things. The right thing in all M's is to forgive. To think otherwise is flawed. It is a M value. I won't debate it. It is my value that cannot be changed. It should be your value too.
Now let me tell you… I have been successful in forgiving my W for only about 16 months or so. But it was hard for several months. I said things. I have not mention her A at all these past 16 months or so, But in our society, things, triggers, are going to pop up. Men make mistakes. The A might be mentioned again. When it is.. “Honey, remember the walk we took at the park. I am forgiving myself.” Then you walk away.. You go do something else.. you don’t dare argue, debate.. say a word. Let’s hope the above he will get it… Love always hopes. If not, like 7years says.. some people cannot forgive over this. You are not ready for that yet.
[This message edited by trynhard at 12:29 PM, February 14th (Thursday)]
If I may ask, what made you file for D? Was her A a dealbreaker for you or was it that she did not do her share of the work after DDay
I filed because it became obvious that my wife couldn't do the work to heal herself. Her version of fixing things was rugsweeping. I figured out really quckly that my W had major issues some of which I never even knew. The A was a symptom of the larger problem. Once I knew she couldn't fix the problem then I had no choice unless I wanted to stick around for the next round of symptoms to manifest. My W told me she didn't want to be married anymore but her actions didn't match those words. She never filed, never made any attempt to leave, kept acting like we were married except no sex. We basically were polite roommates. Eventually I got tired of it and after reading Love must be tough which was recommended by NJgal I made the decision to file. I refused to be miserable for the rest of my life. I followed Tryn's suggestions along with others but I unfortunately chose to marry a women that doesn't get it.
Once I went to see the lawyer I was actually okay. No more stress or wondering what is going to happen next. It was this huge weight that just came off of me. Now it's just a waiting game until she is gone and I can move on with my life. Being quality as Tryn' puts it is not easy especially if you have been trying for a long time to make things work by yourself. It's worth it to try though because if you can do it and make those things stick, for me it meant reaching a point in my healing where fear was bascially gone. Yep the future is unknown but once you find yourself again it's not that bad. I believe you had a goal of doing this for 6 months. If that's what you gave yourself then stick to it through the ups and the downs. When you get to the end you will know what to do next. I told myself I would give it 3 months. I made it about 2 before it was obvious that my W was not going to change at all so I just kept moving forward on my own for myself and my kids. If your husband is going to wake up he has no choice but to do so if you change yourself and how you carry yourself. You refuse to be depressed or allow him to drag you down and he can either join you in moving forward together or stay where he is. It's his choice but your choice is to keep moving forward and you WILL be okay no matter the outcome.
But, he continued to try to do everything that he could to win me back.
I would get triggered by something and cry and carry on and tell him that I wanted a divorce and he would sometimes comfort me but other times just give me space.
... and then he would suggest we go to a movie-where he would hold my hand, or go for a walk in the park-where he would hold my hand.
All of those small gestures helped me to heal and to begin to trust that maybe this marriage could be saved.
I think your text to your BH was lovely.
I also wonder how your BH would react if you plan something for Saturday? when he is not working?
If you organize a sitter for the kids and make plans for dinner and a movie do you think he would agree to go?
Remember it takes a long time for the BS to heal after a LTA.
I was a mess for years after d-day.
If I may ask, when did you see the turning point? When did you feel better truly within yourself? When could you look at your FWH with pride? I do realize it is different for every couple, but maybe if I just had something to hope for...because I have been remorseful, transparent, loving etc. My BH has told our MC that there is nothing else I could do to make him feel better. Our MC has said she hasn't seen a more patient loving caring WS. I am not tooting my own horn. I am humbled by that statement, and if anything it makes me feel more guilty.
I just don't see that light in my BH's eye. It is as if I were to ask for a D, it would be the only way for him to eventually feel better. Right now he feels he would never move on, but I know that he would eventually be able to mend his pains. I would do that for him, if it would help him. I don't want him to live with this and his hurt and despair forever, he deserves better and to be happy.
It was stages, steps, little things, big things...but it was an emotional roller coaster for a very long time.
I basically had an emotional breakdown after d-day.
I shook like a leaf for weeks afterward and I needed to see a doctor for meds for anxiety and for depression as well as something to help me sleep.
I had never taken any kind of meds before this.
I kicked my FWH out of the house after d-day and filed for divorce.
He surprised me by throwing the OW under the bus immediately and never breaking NC even though we were not living together and she was separated from her husband too.
A few days after d-day he stopped in the house to pick up some of his things and I noticed that he wasn't wearing his wedding band ( I had taken mine off on d-day).
He said to me that he took it off because he realized that he had disgraced everything that it stood for.
That was when I had the first glimmer that maybe he did understand how awful his actions were.
I cried every single day, most of the day for a year.
Then it was once or twice a week for another year.
I went to IC for 4 yrs.
We were separated for 6 months.
During that time my FWH worked on himself.
He went to IC for 1 and 1/2 yrs.
He got sober and went to AA-90 meetings in 90 days and he still goes to AA today-six years later.
He gave me a timeline of the LTA and answered all of my questions.
He tried to make amends by contacting our children and some other family members to apologize for his actions.
He started to show me that he could be the kind of man that I would be proud to have as a husband.
Instead of running from what he did he faced it and faced all of our friends and family.
He showed a real strength of purpose. He was determined to save our marriage and make it up to me.
But, even with all of that, it took me years to get to where I am today.
We did have a re-commitment ceremony on the day that he moved back home (after the 6 month separation).
But I was still on that emotional roller coaster for years afterward- one day thinking that reconciling was the right thing to do and then the next day questioning how I could possibly have forgiven such a huge betrayal?
Sorry this is so long, RSEB, but,I just wanted to give you some perspective as to what my thinking was like.
I was married on Valentine's Day to my 1st husband. Before Dday I never wanted to celebrate it at all. It was just a harsh reminder of what I'd lost with XH and I couldn't stand to do it. Even now, it's not a huge deal to me, but at least it's not some sad horror anymore. The 1st Valentine's Day after Dday was tough, but we celebrated and went out to try a new restaurant. It was 2 1/2 months after Dday and almost exactly a month before Baby Paddy was born.
I do still feel little pangs though -- today would have been our 15th anniversary. I think it's very sad. The end of any marriage is sad, sometimes unavoidable, but sad nontheless.
I had a lovely day, but I just now realized I didn't take any pictures. Bummer.
Love rejoiceth not in inequity, but rejoices in the truth. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never fails.
Have a happy V day.
I am stuck in lurking For the last few months I have continued to read daily but find it hard to post.
I am not unhappy. FWH is behaving well(no broken NCs or new OWs as far as I know). He is attentive and considerate most of the time. We have sex at least weekly. He bought me flowers for V day and took me out to dinner.
He used to tell me he loved me and was sorry for what he did daily. Then it dropped to once or twice a week. Now he says he loves me every couple of weeks but hasn't said he is sorry for about 6 weeks.
I think I told you he finally broke down and gave me the "Whole Story" after more than 2 and a half years. (I threatened to leave if he didn't). At the end of the 3 hours of talking he said that he was sorry he hadn't talked about it before. I told him I needed him to do that. I needed him to talk. I told him I think about it every day but don't raise the subject because I feel like he doesn't want to talk about it. But that I also feel like he doesn't care about how I feel because he won't talk. He promised he would keep talking about it in future, he seemed to mean it...... Unfortunately, that was Jan 1 and he hasn't raised the subject once since!!!
So, I am feeling very blah. It doesn't actually worry me much. It's just disappointing. However, I do have this awful feeling that I will never really love him again. I read on SI about people who build a new M and are very happy, I read about those stuck with totally unremorseful spouses and are miserable, or those who build a new life with someone else. I don't know where I fit. Sometimes I don't care. So I feel very
I am also a little angry. He knows the magnitude of his betrayal. He knows how much he hurt me and I have asked him hundreds of times to talk about it all. But he chooses not to. I shouldn't have to do this. I shouldn't have to threaten to leave before he will talk. I shouldn't have to keep asking. He says he loves me and yet he won't make this effort. It is very disappointing.
Just wanted to chime in here. Before I do I want to thank you for your presence in our little corner of SI.
Part of the reason I posted my update above was for you. You asked how we felt. You can read my story in my profile so you know the betrayal was horrific and long term.
At 3 years out I still don't trust my H. (TRYN - please don't say trust is a choice!!! I know it is but it also has to be earned and I think it will take longer than nearly 3 years for FWH to earn my trust!). If he found a new OW next week I wouldn't be all that surprised. So, no I don't trust him.
As for love - I do loving things for my FWH but can't really say I love him (SSSSSHHHH Tryn - I know love is an action ). I kiss him, do little things for him and bought him a card and a small gift for V day (well .... I guess the card was a little boring but I find this so hard!)I listen to him, show interest in his fucking ducks (which is really hard for me). I really try hard to do loving things. But I cannot say "I love you" to him. I just can't. He hasn't asked but I also couldn't say "I trust you" to him. Nor could I say "I forgive you" (TRYN SSSSSSHHHHHHH I know it's an action not a feeling but I can't do either!)
I would really like to love, trust and forgive my FWH. It would make life so much easier. Maybe I would be a lot happier. It would be nice to be "happy" with him. "Comfortable" is boring. But I just can't. I am not ready. I have an awful feeling I may never be ready. I hate that feeling. But it is what it is. So I feel blah. I have come a long way since dday. I haven't sobbed for several months. I still shed a tear or two a week but that's all (such a relief and the skin on my face looks better for it ). Today I went out of town for a day and didn't check "Find my iphone" (his) once. I actually thought at one stage he might see this as a good opportunity to go visit OW2 but didn't care enough to check! I set up the VAR most days he is home alone but haven't listened to it for months.
So, RSEB, I can't get inside your BH's head but maybe this is how he feels. Maybe he wants to love, trust and forgive you but just isn't ready. Maybe like me he is afraid he never will be.
I understand your frustration. You are trying so hard and feel like he isn't seeing your efforts. I don't know what is in his head. Hopefully things will get better for you both in the future. I really hope they do.
HUGS to all