MCJack- I say give the other BS the cell phone records.
Your WW is freaking out because she is ashamed and embarrassed that the BS will see the details of the betrayal.
But, IMHO it is the right thing to do. The betrayed wife deserves to know.
I did the same thing. I asked the other BS for copies of emails.
And, another benefit is that you are bringing the details of the affair out. Affairs rarely survive when totally exposed.
And as for the OM divorcing and pursuing your WW? slim chance.
The statistics prove that. Very few OM and OW end up together.
The reality is never anything like the fantasy.
I called her promiscuous last night.
Today you text her or call her and say that was your hurt talking and you are going to stop it. Tell her you have now finished what you needed to do and she is going to be forgiven no matter what her choice is..Tell her it is a process so you might make a few bad comment she must correct you along the way. Tell her that will be then all Your fault, not hers. Tell her to not have fear to correct you.
YOU apologize for that comment.
Now.. Don't make it easy for her to leave you. keep with the theme you reward all good behaviors and treat all bad behaviors with..
Like setting up another room.. let her do it. You do nothing to promote that... moving to her parents was hard.. let it be hard. Don't offer anything that is easy.
Just say I want us to work hard on us. I will work on me and you work on you. I am going to be a new man. Then You MC work all on being quality.
Right now, she needs to make a choice to come back. Her choice not yours. So, if she starts saying anything that is good for the M, you think hard for a responce, a postive one, one for the M and one for BOTH. If she starts moving toward D, then make sure she knows.. THis is not what I want, I want US to work harder to get our M back. Life is full of good and bad. It is our own choices. I am willing to make that choice if you are. to live more about today.
If no, then do nothing to lead her to D. She does all that kind of stuff on her own. 180 her.. 180 is never about name calling or being ugly.
She wants to move in the other room.. she does it all like single people do.. by themselves. Don't stand in the way of her moving.. just don't help. Stop fixing dinner for both.. ask for utilities half.. things like that. If she gets to asking why? just simply say if you make the choice to be my partner 100%, I will be your partner 100%.
Be very calm, very frank.. Honey, if you are going to talk about leaving this m, then just do what you have to do. I don't want that, but I will give you what YOU want.
She is going to try and make you the bad guy. DON'T fall for the trap. YOU keep calm.. you keep the theme.. I reward her good behaviors and do nothing, no love if she is behaving like ending the M.
You are going to get throught this..
My 2 cents.. I hope ats is around for comment.. he is most good at this..
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:25 AM, February 27th (Wednesday)]
During the last week, discussions on D. W is consistent in expressing lack of "feelings" towards me. I have responded in a simple manner: I love you; I am here by your side as long as you are willing to work on the M; if you do not or will not work on the M then I will let you go. We will D.
I think this is the right way to do it. You just keep up being quality and filling every need.
I saw you other post. If you keep being quality with that attitude, above, YOU are going to be fine. SO WHAT if she leaves you while you filling all her needs along the way. SO WHAT. You are set for a D. You are ready. It’s now her choice to get her butt back in the M. IF not, you have it within you to pressure the crap out her.
I would tell her.. "look, If you make the choice to give, care, love, and be intimate with me, good feelings will come. You visit that IC, that person is a marriage destroyer, go right ahead and keep visiting and you get what you want. A DIVORCE. Why 12 steps? Just do it now. Then let that IC love you enough you feel so good about your choice. That IC is a quack. Just make the choice now. Now, I am working on myself to fill every need you have and you get you can do the same for me. That is the right way to go about our M problems. Got that? That is in direct conflict with that IC and you are going to stay confused because you are going to like the man I am becoming. YOU want to continue to live in confusion? Make a choice honey. Now, where do you want to go to enjoy dinner with me tonight with nothing but pleasant conversation? If she goes trotting off. So WHAT.
When she gets in those modes about disconnecting.. might I suggest something like this..
Life IS forever a combination of good and bad ... positive and negative ... wanted and unwanted ... pleasing and unlikable ... fulfilled and
disappointed ... and the ONLY way to be happy is to forgive and forget the bad and to give no thought or energy to that which is unpleasant and unwanted ... to accept things as they are to accept what is to accept that we do not yet have some
things that we want and accept that there may even be some things we never get to accept personal responsibility for our choices and actions. Lay blame at our own feet where it belongs instead of pointlessly trying to shift it to others shifting blame does not really make it someone else's fault and, at the same time, hold close all that is good and wonderful in the current with all of our being work now to make today and tomorrow the best that they can be. Love those around us today so that we have someone around to love us tommorrow. It is knowingly choosing to replace the bad with the good in our won mind moment by moment and, we are happy to the same degree that we
are able to do this.
Can you see my point above.. all that is involved in that comment?
Have courage and as a man lead her out of her negativity! A quality man thinks this way. If she makes the choice not to follow.. well, so what. You move on.
I am not against the 180.. but be wise about it.. add the pressure at the right time.. if she wants to be single you treat her with the 180 and let her be single. You be single. Crazy.. your W needs 12 steps which is nuts in my thinking. She is in fear H&C. Fear she is about to make a bad choice.. and she is. Oh her gut feeling is against her confused mind. The gut is so powerful if we can harness it.
She is going to move on in life only to find a man who won't fill all her needs.. just like maybe the man you were in the past. Her misery continues. She will die alone if she does not understand the meaning of love. You on the other hand will die with a loving woman.
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:28 AM, February 27th (Wednesday)]
To clarify, my WW is not angry. She is acting mortally wounded and is in retreat. That I just killed the marriage.
All, i made an unconscious mistake over the year. I took way to much blame in the beginning, did not resolve my anger early, 'won' and 'loved' my wife back into the marriage.
We have had on the whole an amazing 11 months in spite of the painful moments.
But i see now that set up an R that gave credence to the pre A issues being mostly all my fault and thus a forgiveness implicitly bundled in. So anything that does not look perfect, and makes her think that "well Jack hasn't changed" means that there is no R.
But i see now that set up an R that gave credence to the pre A issues being mostly all my fault and thus a forgiveness implicitly bundled in. So anything that does not look perfect, and makes her think that "well Jack hasn't changed" means that there is no R.
The problem in our M before was that I was basically 180ing her during alot of the M.
I did the same thing sort of but when I think back on it I may not have known about the A but my reactions to her on a daily basis were a direct response to her A induced fog so you were likely reacting to a WW that you didn't realize was NOT 100% in the M in the first place.
MC Jack, if your WW has not done the work over the last year to fix herself then unfortunately you have been in false R. From your posts it seems that you may think that as well and I can tell you it's very tough to start over again because you basically are starting from scratch. You just start doing for you and taking care of yourself. She either will do the work or she never was and is just a dry adulterer. Start putting yourself first since it's the only thing you can do.
Also go ahead and give the other BS the phone records. Your WW should be on your side with that but she is running from consequences and trying to blameshift to you instead of accepting the damage she has done to you and your family.
ETA: starting over after false R (if you were in fact in false R, only you know)even after a year is doable if the WS actually starts doing the work and the BS still has some energy left.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 2:45 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]
In relationship since Feb 1984
Married July 15, 1997
4 kids, 16YOD, 15YOS, 11YOT boys.
[This message edited by Smittygds at 9:06 PM, January 20th (Sunday)]
Well today I got in a rear ender at a stop light on the way to take WW to IC. Got a speeding ticket on the way there and I didn't feel like blowing my brains out.......progress??
MC, you ok brother? 7years make some good points. How did your W even know you gave OM's W that info?
My WW came back home, we spent the whole morning going over stuff. Things have stabilized. I am ok.
I finally cleared out the last of my "inner demons." I was never a quality man during my marriage. I now mostly know the whys and just need to figure out how to best improve myself. I have exposed everything and am now completely vulnerable yet at peace and somewhat confident. Just leading by example here. Want real intimacy. Going to be quality for WW or whoever might follow. I am amazed by what I know about myself now.
My WW has set a boundary of sending the bills as a marriage deal breaker. She is happy that I told the other BS but perceives unnecessary recrimination risk with documentation floating around. My MC and IC are both in that corner. So, what I am really trying to figure out now is what is behind this position. So I am staying in a holding pattern on this one. Not sure what the issue is as the other BS knows who we are, where we work, etc...
...as Tryn reminds, it is a process. I think I am the kind of person that wants to figure out everything immediately.
Tryn: I have not emailed the phone documents over yet. In last MC, I mentioned that the other BS said she wanted them. I have been transparent about when the other BS has called. I now need to establish NC with her whether or not I send her anything.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 3:14 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]
How was I so blind and how cunning was it that my WW and AP could cover up a double life so well?
M C Jack,
I'm so sorry you're hurting so much. Why cant they see we love them so much,and the damage they've done runs so deep...and then they act as though we did something to make them be,in my opinion,more cruel to us. If we could only exchange souls with them for 2 days,I wonder if even that would change some of their minds.
I appreciate you and your pep talk earlier,and I am taking much better care of my self. I'm actually putting MYSELF first. I'm sorry your wife is so hurtful. I agree with the others,this isn't about that OM,or your WW. You would want to know,and we all know,things would be much different had someone given us a heads up years ago. I hope all the best luck. This blows for us all,and I truly dont understand how so many people can be so heartless.
I was never a quality man during my marriage.
Ok.. I was not by far the stellar H, nor am I perfect today. But IMO, you just knowing, now being aware, keenly aware of your W’s feelings, how you are becoming a man to fill all your W’s needs, placing the priority on your M first.( God first really) then all the other things in life that is good for YOU and your family make you... Yes, TODAY you are quality! No more need to revisit any past. You are all about living today.
I find most IC taking positions of not hurting others. True, you have no clue what is going on in that M.. Maybe you compromise? I am with the IC and MC on this.. put that dog to bed.
To OM's W.. “gather your own evidence, I speak the truth. You can believe me or not, it is your own choice. Please, I need to work on my own M now and I need peace by you not ever contacting me again. Thank you for considering my feelings and you are in my prayer.”
Start now to put all the ugly behind you.
You might even have a point to make to your W in all this. She must be able to face you when she thinks you are wrong and not run home to mom. A good MC subject perhaps.
Honey, you cannot be afraid to conflict with me. I am a man who can handle it. If you ever think I am wrong, confront me with courage, I will work my best to listen, not react with mean words. But You can also not run from me to mommy. Just tell me to time out. We both time out.. to just think about it. I will work harder at controlling my anger. (then go get a book on it)
MC.. you seem very methodical. GOOD. Now get better at methodical thinking on your feet. Things that work for me is say nothing! When my W tries to make me make comment.. I say, Honey, I am just trying to think what to say that is good for US, our M.
I was at a fifty year anniversary once. The couple said the key to being married 50 years was they always never ran away when they had a conflict. They always kissed each other when the go to bed.
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:50 PM, February 27th (Wednesday)]
MC and Tryin- I just do not agree with the idea of not helping the other BS out by giving her copies of her own husband's communication with his affair partner!
I think that IC's and MC's often give very bad advice about not contacting the other BS.
Many ICs and MCs also give bad advice about NOT discussing the affair at all if you want to reconcile.
They are old school.
It's also so interesting how differently betrayed husbands react to LTAs as opposed to betrayed wives.
The WS should not be heaping guilt on the BS.
None of us in this life are perfect.
All of us made mistakes in our lives, in our marriages etc.
Much of how we behaved in our marriages was a reaction to how our spouses behaved toward us.
We were not in the marriages alone.
MC- Are you saying that you were the villain in your marriage and your wife was the perfect wife before her LTA?
I'm not saying that there are not things that we all need to change and improve in our 'new marriages' post d-day.
In fact, that is how I feel that we all need to look at our marriages now...as new marriages...and that all of the old habits, old rules, have to change.
But... IMHO there are a number of things that you need to happen in order to reconcile after and affair:
-real, genuine remorse from the WS
- a willingness to come clean about everything and be transparent in terms of passwords, cell phone records,credit card bills, etc.
- the WS should show a willingness to make amends to you and to anyone that they have hurt through their actions during the affair
- the WS needs to show a willingness to work on the marriage and do anything and everything that they need to help save the marriage!
Both parties have to give more than 100% to the process.
I'm just confused as to how they had the LTAs and now they are the ones dictating the rules for reconciliation.
It also worries me because whenever I read stories on SI of couples that were too quick to sweep the details of the infidelity under the rug....the less likely they were to have a true Reconciliation and a lasting reconciliation.
I also know that in my case the MOW had a history of infidelity and her husband was very kind and tried to protect her from embarrassment etc. so he swept everything under the rug.
The result? continued affairs culminating with the 5 yr LTA with my FWH.
so, maybe I'm over cautious on this issue......but, that's me.
In my case, my WH really started to get it about a month after Dday. I stepped onto the scale and winced. I was 6 months pregnant. He asked if I'd really gained that much because I didn't look it -- I looked great. I just looked at him and said very quietly that I weighed ten pounds less than I had when I got pregnant.
All the color drained out of his face. He started cooking and bringing me food a lot -- and having our nannies do the same. I did finally gain some weight but the baby was 3 weeks earlier than my other children and weighed 2 1/2 pounds less than my previous baby had. It was very sad.
This!!! That is what I am trying to figure out!
To clarify some of your q's above:
1. The A has been over 1 year.
2. My WW has been fully transparent on my end. She has told me everything limited by what I have asked, she told her coworkers, friends, and all family. She wanted them to know that we had tough times ahead and I was not the perpetrator. The issue is just doc exchange with other BS.
3. The bad pre-A M? I was Batman and she was Robin. Just being honest. I had big time FOO issues, worthy of adding to my profile at some point, that created a bad synergy with her issues. Mine were the drivers of the discord and me not being quality. So my WW chose the cowardly way rather than forcing D or lots of MC, pressuring me in other words. I had given her lots of cues that I did not care much about the M. Maybe I didn't and that was part of my FOO stuff.
We are trying for more healing tonight.
Thx again to all.
Living in limboland sucks. I have about 45 days til our trip and I am done. I am going on this trip as a last ditch effort and if he doesn't do his part I am done. No more waiting for this or that. I am sooo sick of living like this. I hate myself. I hate recording him, I hate not being able to trust him, I hate him lying to me, I hate it all! I am fed UP!
I have been up and down on being a quality wife. I try really hard to be positive but I know he's lying so it's hard to lie right back by being decent when I want to rip his head off. We will see. I slip and ask him about her sometimes. I always wondered how you would know enough is enough and I guess now I now. The 45 days feel like forever away.
I haven't actually busted him since the Valentine card because I haven't tried. I could record him and catch him but I'm tired of doing it. I kind of gave up. Just "praying for the end of time" (the 45 days til our trip). lol
He has no idea I feel as angry as I do. He is telling me some of the things he's supposed to but he's still not being transparent and hasn't expressed the remorse he should. He is sometimes sensitive to my feelings but not enough.
Sounds like the end of it, huh?
Thanks for listening. I appreciate all of you. I read sometimes even when I don't post. Take care.
I totally agree with all you said.
I think that the advice for someone further along in their recovery/reconciliation is different than it is for those just finding out.
And in my year-1 year post d-day is just finding out.
You spend the first few months in shock, walking around like a zombie and then the reality of what happened begins to hit you!
In fact,year 2 after d-day is often the hardest year for those trying to reconcile.
Even harder than the first year because you are expecting that you would be healed and 'over it' by then and you are not!
I worry that telling newbies that in those early days, months, even 1st year after d-day they should be worried about being the perfect betrayed wife or husband may not be what the BS needs to hear.
They already feel beaten down, their self esteem is in the dumpster, they compare themselves to the OW/OM constantly, they feel like losers and door mats for considering reconciliation after a LTA.....
and then on top of all that to be told that they need to tip toe around the WS and try to work on becoming the best spouse at a time of such emotional upheaval?
I just disagree.
All of the WS lash out at even the slightest attempt to talk about the infidelity. Its not a reflection on the BS. Its the WS trying to deflect and avoid criticism and often to often taking any blame.
Its called blame shifting.
Lets not talk about the LTA-lets talk about what a horrible spouse you were!
To me it sounds like beating up the BS and blaming the BS for the affair!
That is not something that I see on any of the other SI forums.
sorry for the vent....
but my first impulse is to provide comfort to the BS.
They are going through one of the most traumatic experiences of their life.
I do not want to blame them and encourage them do back flips to win back an unremorseful WS.
And... as for MCJack's WW...explain to me the how records of phone calls are incriminating documents?
what could the BS do with them?
were the calls made during work hours? and the WW is concerned that she could
That would be the only concern as I see it.
Otherwise, if they are records of hundreds of texts or calls between the affair partners-who cares?
MC. I confess to being one messed up confused 48 year old. I have had a history of self destructive behavior, I have raged too easily when frustrated and ignored. I have huge FOO issues that have kept therapists and siblings' therapists at work for years. And here is what I am learning... Never mind that I have been told this all my life... I am just now starting to learn it.... I am human, I am capable, I accept that life is a journey of change and growth. I am not the same person I was twenty years ago or ten years ago or even a year ago. Nor is my husband and the most obvious example, nor are my children. There is no standing still. When we commit , we commit to being there through the end. My wh kept a score card before, during and after the affair. He still does. I keep my distance because he has not earned any more access into my vulnerability, my journey. His vision of who I am is limited.
Promiscuous? That's the best you've got? Ha. If anyone says they haven't said worse, I have a very hard time believing that. Well, she was promiscuous. That is a fact. Is it a fact that heals you or comforts her or moves you forward? no. But it is part of the hell you are dealing with. And my guilt over not being the person I am called to be, sometimes lulls me into accepting too much responsibility for the decline of my marriage, for the false reconciliations. Had I been able to keep my demons at bay, he could have made it to the end.
And that is not giving him credit for being able to learn and grow and change as required by life. All the introspection, tools, gifts that have been offered me, are available to him. The difference, i believe, is relinquishing control and hearing differently. It can be done. And you are painfully reviewing your walk through life and recognizing what gets in your way.
You are NOT in the way of your wife becoming who she is meant to be.
Everyday we do things that are worthy of apologizing for. Everyday we are offered a new chance to do it better. She must look towards her own self improvement and that includes a life of compassion, integrity and courage. Walk tall and kindly. Sometimes that's all we've got. Hugs
There are no shortcuts.
I also agree with NJgal. I learned alot from everyone in this forum. I look at LTA's as so different in terms of the craziness that the BS has to deal. IMO the general advice given around the boards applies but it's like basic math and the advice we receive from vets that have recovered or are further along in dealing with the fallout from LTA's or A's in general is like advanced calculus. What the LTA BS just dealing with this or even after some time needs is the algebra version of things to figure out how to get through it.
At it's core all the advice I received all over the forums had the same theme. You can't heal or fix your spouse. You only truly have control over yourself. It also hinges on the fact that you actually do have a remorseful spouse that ended the A and you are not doing the work by yourself. You have to put the focus on yourself and healing yourself regardless of what your WS does or does not do. Tryn's advice is awesome but at it's core he is saying heal yourself and a possible side effect of healing yourself is your S may wake up. It's no different then the possible side effects of the 180. Your WS sees you changing thus breaking the status quo and either remains in the same place or can choose to move forward but regardless YOU are being proactive about your own healing and future. It's always been about the BS healing themselves while hopefully the WS stops the A and is doing the work to heal themselves as well. None of the advice ever said do thsi to win yrou WS back. it's always been about taking back control of your life and healing yourself.
Healing yourself and taking back control of your life in LTA's is so important because the lies and negative history is so bad that BH's can literally get stuck for a long time. Even if you don't get stuck eventually there is ALWAYS something to trigger you or a question you may ask or the anger hits much later or something. And even if you get unstuck the WS has been used to lying and decieving for so long that even if they are remorseful they literally may not be able to fix themselves and we definitely can't do it for them no matter how much we want too.
I call my STBXWW an emotional vampire. She just sucks the life out of everyone around her to survive emotionally but she can't give back to those that actually need that same energy back. So life was cool as long as I rugswept and walked on eggshells but we kept going through the same cycles until I became strong enough to realize I was better than that and deserved better. Do I still care for my STBXWW, sure, but I am going to care for her from afar as the mother of my children and not as my Wife.
Our WS took so much from us for so long that you deserve happiness and not more waffling, lies, less than 100% towards R, or not meeting your boundaries. Healing yourself allows you to see how things truly are and it also makes your WS actually stand up for themselves as you detach. They have no choice if you remove yourself as their crutch.
Do I get pissed that my STBXWW chose not to change and fix herself sure but I also realize that if I had never detached and worked on myself that she would never have actually done anything to move forward even if it's in a direction I didn't want. Hey it's the direction she wanted though and I choose to live with that since it's her life and I can actually do something with my life since I am not stuck in that cycle of madness.
So figuring out who I am and what I wanted will definitely work out for me and may also work out for her in the long run but if I had clung on nothing would have changed and I would have still been stuck in that same cycle. So don't cling to what you used to have in the M and the memory of who your WS used to be because that is gone. You really do have to start over and yes there is no gaurantee that you will be starting over together. The odds are stacekd against us imo but it's doable but only if you actually heal yourself first to even allow you to see how things truly are.
Just my 2 cents.