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User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 9
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It sows enough confusion and doubt that after awhile, it's easy for the abuser to roll in the heavy guns and pound away while you're demoralized and confused and wondering how much this shit may really play in.

Different issue developed in my situation. During arguments, more or less, I do not back down. I will compromise with my wife, certainly, but I'm not just going to roll over. So, since I tend to be confrontational, and my wife generally avoids it, eventually she just stopped bringing things up with me. We had fundamentally different views on the function of an argument: I viewed them as an important problem-solving mechanism within our relationship...you bring your points, as well as your feelings, I'll bring mine, and then we'll hash something out this works for the both of us, right? Except that (and I'm only REALLY starting to understand this now, through MC) when she gets emotional...like say, during an argument....she doesn't realize bring logic into play. It just doesn't factor in at all for her, at least not in the past it hasn't. Essentially, I would be trying to out-debate her during our arguments, with the mindset that whoever had the stronger argument was probably correct, unless we reached a compromise...but whatever she said during the argument (which would be occasionally t agree with me), she still walked away feeling hurt, and I didn't really realize it.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
hardlessons
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Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Facepunched, debating or arguing with a conflict avoider is like herding cats. My wife will attest to this and she isn't a good with cats..

How often, honestly was it about being right or reaching a compromise?

A great book Wert told me about was Act with Love. If your in R or not, good communication advice.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
hardlessons
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Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW was guilty of that in the past ALL THE TIME. With EVERYTHING that upset her that I did. Usually pretty quick to let me know when she had an issue with my actions, but was ready to provide me with an acceptable remedy say, oh, 0.00% of the time.

How many of those times did you need to be told, really? Not that she is right 100% of the time but if you act like a dick or say something stupid or insensitive and she calls you out are you saying you have no idea?

The more honest I become with myself the more I become aware of my surroundings, the more I am aware of what I want and what I should be doing as a husband and a human. And I am finding that when my actions are not what they should be I usually know it as the previous ability to justify or discount don't hold the water they used to.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Facepunched, debating or arguing with a conflict avoider is like herding cats. My wife will attest to this and she isn't a good with cats..

Well, yeah, I know this NOW....

How often, honestly was it about being right or reaching a compromise?

I can honestly say that for myself, it really was about trying to reach a compromise. I know guys who run roughshod over their wives and I hate seeing it, but I've also been the doormat in a past relationship, so I'm not going to let that happen either. I really, honestly, would've been thrilled to reach a compromise.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How many of those times did you need to be told, really? Not that she is right 100% of the time but if you act like a dick or say something stupid or insensitive and she calls you out are you saying you have no idea?

Totally agree, and I touched on that a little bit earlier. If I'm being an asshole, it usually becomes pretty obvious to me why my wife is upset. I'm talking moreso about the less tangible things to argue over. Broad concepts, such as "I'm not happy", or "I don't feel taken care of". If I say something insensitive (and it DOES happen, certainly), I usually realize it with or without my wife's pointing it out to me.

The more honest I become with myself the more I become aware of my surroundings, the more I am aware of what I want and what I should be doing as a husband and a human. And I am finding that when my actions are not what they should be I usually know it as the previous ability to justify or discount don't hold the water they used to

Now "this shit right here" (Kat Williams reference) ^^^ is something that I have been seriously, and with considerable effort, working on, even pre-A. I almost certainly have adult-ADD (no insurance for myself to go get diagnosed, but my ADHD son's physician has an adult daughter with ADD, and our issues are almost exact), and it takes a ton of effort for me to really slow down , think, and pay attention to how what I'm doing/saying/acting is affecting those around me. Always has. Not an excuse, by any means; there's usually no good reason to act like an unrepentant asshole who ignores their actions on others' feelings. But as my marriage/relationship has progressed with time, I've made a conscious effort to identify things that I (and not other people) don't like about myself and have worked to change them. Not for anyone else, but because I don't like it.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
hardlessons
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Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Now "this shit right here"

I just hope he stays outta jail and off the crack long enough to do some more comedy...

Never been diagnosed with ADD, but whenever the topic comes up I feel like that scene in Invasion of the body snatchers and everyone is pointing and screaming at me... Trying to slow things down like you mentioned is a serious battle, between forgetfulness and there being so many bright shiny objects like; what did I have for dinner, wonder what kind of bird that is, with all the remakes of scifi stuff how come they never bring back 1999, my boss is an ass, what did she just say, I should remember wife said that, the Suns suck this year, what in the hell was I just thinking?


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
ReunitePangea
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Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off, I wanted to say hello as I am a first time poster on the Betrayed Men thread. I've been hanging out in the LTA forum and the battle tested strong ladies there gave me a shove to take a look at this forum as well (hmmmm....maybe they think I need a little toughening up, lol)

Second, the epic post by WAL a couple pages ago got some press even over in the LTA forum, nicely done WAL! While the post had some great points to it that I am benefiting from reading, I would like to submit myself as the exception to his below observation.

I have rarely -- like *never* -- seen a BH show up on an online forum for whom infidelity was the first marital betrayal his wife had ever engaged in.

How can I be so sure, well my WW started her 12+ year LTA day 1 we met. OM1 has been around longer than I have and I never even knew who he existed until just a few months ago. While I think I may be the exception - I may help prove some of the rest of what WAL observed. I have never been given a list of demands, excuses or reasons as they relate to something I did or did not do that caused the situation that I find myself in. What is she going to say I guess, "I started screwing OM1 because you didn't - wait I didn't even know you yet" she can't even go there. If you can't make that statement like me, WAL is probably right, best to get ready for it. I do think there is a certain amount of just messed up thinking that goes on with our WWs that causes this in the first place. That's the riddle I have been focused on but as I am starting to find out that is for her to figure out not me - I just have to have my list of things I expect from our M.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 12:20 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just hope he stays outta jail and off the crack long enough to do some more comedy...

And stops beating up unsuspecting Target employees. Jeez.

With regards to the ADD stuff, I have attempted to explain it to my wife like this: my brain, 99.9% of the time, but ESPECIALLY when I'm bombarded with different streams of information, feels like this would to 'normal' person:
It's like someone put you into a broom closet, closed the door, and then threw like 10 of those super bouncy rubber balls in there at the same time and asked you to grab them all...except they never slow down, they remain bouncing around the room at a constant speed. That feeling, of trying to track 10 different things all moving randomly in different directions and also trying to grab them out of the air...that feeling of confusion and panic is what my brain feels like, very often.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 12:38 PM, March 14th (Thursday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ReunitePangea-

Welcome. That situation of your is nuts.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What is she going to say I guess, "I started screwing OM1 because you didn't - wait I didn't even know you yet" she can't even go there.

This is so crazy to me. It's like your WW is the ultimate in cake-eaters. Not only did she cheat on you, but really, she never even made a choice to begin with...it's like she was dating two guys, married one of them, and just never broke up with the other one...wow. So, was she cheating on the OM with you, and just ended up marrying you? I'm confused. Is this kind of stuff common over there in the LTA forum? My WW's A was only 9 months, not that it makes it better, obviously, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around your situation.
I do think there is a certain amount of just messed up thinking that goes on with our WWs that causes this in the first place.

There IS an amount, and that amount is a metric-fucking-ton.
something I did or did not do that caused the situation that I find myself in
None of this is something we did or didn't do to get here. People make choices. Some people make bad choices. Our WWs made TERRIBLE choices. No matter the state of the respective marriage, they had other options in their arsenal of ways to deal with the marital issues, and they chose (to paraphrase WAL here) to turn someone else's dick into a marital aid. It's important to keep in mind that for the WW, that exists as a valid response to marital problems. Not saying that it's always their 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice, but somewhere down on the list it exists for them as a viable course of action, for any number of 'reasons.'

[This message edited by FacePunched at 3:22 PM, March 14th (Thursday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
ReunitePangea
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Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is so crazy to me. It's like your WW is the ultimate in cake-eaters. Not only did she cheat on you, but really, she never even made a choice to begin with...it's like she was dating two guys, married one of them, and just never broke up with the other one...wow. So, was she cheating on the OM with you, and just ended up marrying you? I'm confused. Is this kind of stuff common over there in the LTA forum? My WW's A was only 9 months, not that it makes it better, obviously, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around your situation

LOL - trust me many times I look back at it all and get a good chuckle. Ultimate cake eater sounds about right, OM1 did know about me. OM1 was a loser though and not really marriage material. He was single while we dated and was seeing my WW. Things I guess stopped while we were engaged but picked right up again after we got married. OM1 I guess was pushing for my WW to D and marry him but again the dude is pretty much a loser so that didnt happen. Eventually OM1 found someone on his own to M but that didn't stop things either. What finally stopped it was a couple years ago loser OM1 new wife who was supporting him got a job in another state and they had to move. OM1 stayed in contact with WW until I found out about it a few months ago.

Realize that while my WW A was much longer than yours, that doesn't mean I would wish to change places with you. In every A situation there are things that are much harder to deal with than others. I didnt get a list of demands to fix me, my WW has no intentions of chasing this loser OM cause she could have done that many years ago and there honestly was a bit of sense of relief I think that it was finally over. I think to live a 12+ year LTA is similar to what a fugitive must feel like after running away from the law for many years - always hoping your secret isn't found out when the excitement of it has long since past. Instead I get to deal with a WW that has never only been with me - either way it sucks.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 406 | Registered: Nov 2012
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 11:53 PM, March 14th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’ve R’d.. A good R at that... One of the things I changed about me was exactly you say is a cop out. The man I am today… when my W crosses anything that is not good for my M, damn straight it is my responsibility to bring on a conflict. If I sit back and expect my W to fix this without my bring up the issue, How is she to know she needs to change her behavior? Why is this a flaw the modern IC tells us? And I have also tried hard to make my W feel safe to the point she is no longer afraid to point out my bad behaviors. Does that make sense?

That does make sense, and FacePunched was correct in his reading of my intention. I'm really not referring to mind-reading sorts of activities here, but exactly the sort of "I'm not happy" open-ended bombshells. This is a whole class of general complaints like "We don't spend enough time together" or "I don't feel as connected to you as we used to be."

My answer to that is: if you don't feel as connected, it's incumbent upon you to propose a solution -- and a solution that doesn't just require sacrifice from one partner. Your solution can't be "...therefore, you need to give up bowling night with your friends and come to my women's book club meeting instead."

Things that cross boundaries are in another category, but I'd probably argue that calling out those conflicts also bring an inherent solution set -- i.e., "I don't like that you do x. Stop it." In an ideal world, you find a way to turn that into a compromise: it hurts me when you do x. If you can help me understand what I'm doing that leads you to do x, I'll try to curtail that behavior, but you need to understand that doing x is a dealbreaker for me."

But with the general statements ("I'm not happy"), you're just begging to run afoul of the other pop-psychology marital advice, which is that the big problem with men in relationships is that we try to fix things instead of just listening, which is what chicks apparently really want. So if I want to stay cool with that advice, the appropriate response to "I'm not happy" is to acknowledge that you heard it, commiserate, but not actually do anything about solving that problem for her.

Catch-22, anyone?

(The lesson, as always, is that there aren't any hard and fast rules...and chances are you're going to fuck it up every once in awhile by trying to do the right thing -- and almost as often as you fuck it up by doing the wrong thing because you didn't think it through or misinterpreted the expected response.)


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
trynhard
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Default  Posted: 6:12 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know this men.. So you know, my W was involved in a LTA, 9 years. Much of reason it happened for so long was because of opportunity, but another huge factor was the way my W pressured me to “go away” so to speak when I was not protecting my boundaries.

Example, She started her A by staying late after work… drinks with the co-workers.. My gut was screaming…
Me, “what are you doing? Why am I not invited? I don’t like the kids being baby sat after work, you are taking advantage of the neighbors.. why do you talk so much with your boss? Why don’t you “want” me anymore? ”
W, “YOU HAVE A LIFE, I don’t.. blah blah blah..”
ME, I caved, I let her do it… I failed myself by not being a man who enforced. I can stand here and say,,, I let another man take my turf.

I buried myself by focusing attention on my family in other areas, like income, like the kids… at the same time took the abuse from my W. No different then a woman who take physical abuse and just accepts it by telling themselves the excuse.

I would bet a few of us, myself included has said "I'm not a fucking mind reader!?"

The last time I came to this thread I brought up a book written by Dr. Laura. This very topic is one mention in that book. She tries to tell these woman what they need to do, how to behave… Women tend to argue with feelings. They are signals men must learn how to read. A woman should realize this and be MORE DIRECT. Not so easy. A balance of both is probably the best.. Men don’t think that way. While my wife was telling me “YOU have a life, I don’t” the real message was far different. No, I cannot read her mind. But I had the real message clearly in my grasp. Is it fair, should a woman be more direct? Hell yes.. but my therapist says generally a woman cannot make you list.. They say exactly what FaceP said.. “I don’t feel taken care of..”

FacePunched.. most excellent response.

if what you really want is it colored red, then you'd probably be better off telling them "I don't like this picture blank....please make it red." And if they really hate the color red, and they really like blue? Color that fucker purple, I guess, provided you can both live with purple. But when you provide a problem, and not any sort of solution, then the solution could be damn-near ANYTHING, including one of a million solutions you'd probably hate.

I call this a conflict. I never really knew how to conflict in a way that was safe… So, I didn’t. My old ways to conflict always ended in anger and misery. So, I avoided them all together.

One thing I know for sure today, when you protect a boundary, it is going to involve conflict. And facepunched touches on things in conflict that are most excellent. Don’t back down, compromise… but there is more to it than that.

she doesn't realize bring logic into play…"I'm not happy", or "I don't feel taken care of".
Again, more proof that woman generally argue with feelings. Men and women think differently. What I find is that many woman defend that statement.."we are equa'.. yes in many respect but a man and women have differences. I expect that because today’s society (at least in the US) is attempting to place everyone equal. The woman’s movement…Fact is, that is just not possible. Men are always going to be larger, stronger.. in body.. And we do think different. Some jobs are just more suited for men. Woman hate that!


Anyway, The best marriages are those that both, mutually, protect boundaries, and enforced by bring on conflict. When I behave poorly, it is my W’s responsibility to correct me, when She behaves poorly, it is my responsibility to correct her.

And if conflict is done in the right way, I know people will respect you. Do it in such a way the love bucket is not emptied.

RP..

LTA.. strong ladies there gave me a shove to take a look at this forum
My W did the same exact thing to me.. I backed down. A boundary issue maybe you should consider changing about yourself. Our FOO taught us how to conflict or not conflict. If you didn’t have it before or during the M, you just didn’t have it.

Ultimate cake eater

IMO, unless you are a man with low Testosterone, a low libido, A WW is not seeking her A for sex.. That hole missing is being filled with that cake by the other man. And the OM may be needing this sex, but your W likely needed something else. People hate to hear that. They call it blame shifting, excuses.. it can be a reason, not an excuse. No person should take a reason and hurt another. Then expect to be forgiven. That then becomes an excuse. You likely heard it too.. W, “I didn’t mean to hurt you.. blah blah blah…” That can be taken as a reason.. They fell for the snake charmer... needs not filled. I expect to be challenged on this.

For me WAL…

Your solution can't be "...therefore, you need to give up bowling night with your friends and come to my women's book club meeting instead."

That is true.. I invite.. “do you want to…” and if she says no, I go. And this can be applied to all.. Do you want to have sex?, “No” ok.. I am not some needy man… but she had better realize that I am not going to live my life without intimacy and you are going to get into it. Too many No’s, not getting into it.. will bring on a conflict. Yes, I compromise on frequency or whatever… But I have an expectation of love others and the love I receive. I look at myself first.. I’m I filling all my W’s need to the best of my ability. Is there something I missed? The law of reciprocity has worked for me…But after I look hard at me, and my wife continues to be irrational.. Declines to accept my invitations.. ultimately, the end game is you won’t be in my world.

For me today, this is about me.. I don’t need my w. If she wants to join my world, she is welcome to join it. She not dare tell me.. “I need space” because if she does.. Guess what? The front door is right there. Not what I want, but you see door, walk right out. Don’t give me this… “I need to decide” bull shit.. If you cannot decide, I will go ahead and file the papers… No, that is not me deciding.. that is YOU deciding. Wife, get your head in the M.

This has been taught to me by a sex therapist and working very well. A value chnage for me, a new belief.

[This message edited by trynhard at 6:25 AM, March 15th (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
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Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A lot to digest there..

Don’t back down, compromise… but there is more to it than that.

Agreed. As WAL pointed out above, some conflicts bring with them the inherent solution, right? My WW used to complain I was too friendly/flirty with females I encountered....the solution to that particular issue is pretty obvious, right? Just stop flirting. I feel like, in general, the more specific the 'problem' being brought to my attenion, the more likely there is to be a obvious solution. Again, the issue becomes those sort of nebulous complaints, where the answer could be anything from 'Help around the house more' to 'Be better in bed' to 'Take time to talk to me more often.' I would imagine that in order for us to be where we are now, in the world's second worst club (first goes to the people on "Locked-up Abroad"....sweet Christ, it's brutal), we all let our hard boundaries (if we had any) be violated in some manner. For me, I allowed my WW to hang out unaccompanied with male friends in a scenario where alcohol was present. That's not hanging the A on me, just saying that particular area was something I should've stomped on instantly, and I didn't for a number of reasons.

I didn't want to be THAT jealous guy.
I felt secure in my relationship.
I was definitely the more social creature, so I was happy she was branching out.
...and a bunch of other reasons.

But like WAL said (again, damn him) if that were a buddy's wife, I'd be IRL 2x4'ing him, telling him to pay attention, because *that right thurr* is a recipe for disaster, assuming the disaster hasn't already struck. I have a buddy, actually, who's long term GF hangs out with all these ghetto-ass dudes, and they drink and smoke weed together all the time into the wee hours of the night...and I used to constantly be on my friend's back, telling him to grow a pair and shut that shit down, or be prepared to walk away...and while I still feel like he should (probably moreso now), I can understand the emotions and internal reasoning of why he's hesitant to say anything.

That hole missing is being filled with that cake by the other man. And the OM may be needing this sex, but your W likely needed something else. People hate to hear that. They call it blame shifting, excuses.. it can be a reason, not an excuse.

Well, I'd say this both plays into the 'whys' of the A, but it also is *kind of* BS. The reason for many WWs to seek out their As is that, yes, they do indeed have a bottomless well of self-esteem issues that they're attempting to fill. But that, unfortunately, is not the hole that's actually being filled by the POSOM. No one, except the WW, can fill that self-esteem hole. The concept of the "magic dick" had been discussed here before...and that's at play in these situations, I think. Our WWs have been with us for whatever amount of time, and despite our best efforts (and occasionally, when there's a game on, our not-so-best efforts) they still feel like shit, and so by default we must be doing something wrong, because "Cosmo", "People" and even fucking "Tiger Beat" made it perfectly clear that once you get married, you'll *finally* feel like a whole person. So when it doesn't, instead of doing the hard work on themselves, they decided the problem lies outside of them...this gets exacerbated once they "fall in luurrrvvvv" with the AP...they get that intoxicating rush of infatuation and think "Oh, so this must be what *real* love feels like....I guess I never knew! This will make me feel complete", not recognizing it for what it really is.

Except...accept...that it won't.

The OM is, at best, a stopgap measure (in both the literal and metaphorical sense)...given time and the light of day, that relationship would fail her in her quest for the Holy Grail of FOO issues. Except that (in staying with the metaphor here) the A is NOT the Holy Grail, it's the Ark of the Covenant...and opening it actually melts your face off, not grants you everlasting life.

No one (or two, or three, whatever, depending on your situation) dick will ever come along and fix you. Doesn't work that way. But I'm not going to sit here and bag on women, because I know plenty of dudes living in their parent's basements doing nothing with their life sitting there thinking "If only I had a girl, I'd be happy..." Uh, no.

You'll be happy when you like you for you, either by accepting the person you are, good AND bad, and incorporating them into your idea of who you are, or by changing yourself into a person you DO like...but because you want to be that person for you.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
hardlessons
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Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but exactly the sort of "I'm not happy" open-ended bombshells. This is a whole class of general complaints like "We don't spend enough time together" or "I don't feel as connected to you as we used to be."

My answer to that is: if you don't feel as connected, it's incumbent upon you to propose a solution -- and a solution that doesn't just require sacrifice from one partner. Your solution can't be "...therefore, you need to give up bowling night with your friends and come to my women's book club meeting instead."

So, wife says I don't spend enough time together and don't feel connected. What if that is because I work 70 hours a week and the usual busy life on top of that? Is that solely her responsibility to solve? No it's not. Its the start of a conversation that 2 grown people can have about balancing needs and wants. I think when we make declarative statements of the 10% that covers all we do a disservice to ourselves.

The reason most(not all) men don't want to listen and jump straight to the "fixing" is because we are afraid to talk, to communicate honestly cuz we don't know how. And when we are in the shit storm aftermath of an A we certainly are furious/petrified and everything in between.

Many boundary crossings are not the black and white situations of if you do this its a deal breaker, many for me and that I have seen require communication. So, I need to learn to communicate so that it doesn't become a catch 22..


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
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Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, wife says I don't spend enough time together and don't feel connected. What if that is because I work 70 hours a week and the usual busy life on top of that? Is that solely her responsibility to solve? No it's not. Its the start of a conversation that 2 grown people can have about balancing needs and wants. I think when we make declarative statements of the 10% that covers all we do a disservice to ourselves.

I'm fine with this, as long as when she says she doesn't feel connected the response includes the fact that you work 70 hours a week...not as an excuse to not connect, but as an invitation that invites her to be open to an amicable compromise that takes that particular nugget into account. Because if she wants YOU to come up with the means of reconnecting without regard to your working hours, then it's just manipulation. So if she says, "I don't feel connected" and you say "Well, let's work on that...keeping in mind that I work 70 hours a week, let's see what we can figure out" and her response is some version of "YOU need to figure it out.", then that right there is just manipulation, not problem-solving.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1607 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
wert
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Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Because if she wants YOU to come up with the means of reconnecting without regard to your working hours, then it's just manipulation.

It's also not compromise or acknowledgement of reality.

For me it's less about bringing solutions and more about communicating solutions and working out pliable ones that work. I like the idea very much of parties presenting solutions if and when they pose a problem, but in real terms I think it works best if you have established rapport in such a way that you know the presentation of the problem does not equate to dumping. A couples ability to call each other out on that shit is critical. Sometimes problems don't have solutions and sometimes it is just talking through a misunderstanding or feeling. Sometimes it exploration. Touchy Feely crap, but true for chicks none the less.

take care...



Posts: 1364 | Registered: Jan 2012
hardlessons
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Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Because if she wants YOU to come up with the means of reconnecting without regard to your working hours, then it's just manipulation.

It's also not compromise or acknowledgement of reality.

Absolutely. Why I said it is the start of 2 grown people having a conversation which should include reality and compromise, without manipulation...

Sometimes problems don't have solutions and sometimes it is just talking through a misunderstanding or feeling. Sometimes it exploration. Touchy Feely crap, but true for chicks none the less.

Gold Wert, Gold


Me WH
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3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 838 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
5454real
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Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sometimes problems don't have solutions

I'm thinking a lot of issues could be avoided if people had a better understanding of this. Perhaps acceptance would be a better word.

It might prevent the usless endeavor of trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

(bad imagery?)


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
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― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2068 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
sisoon
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Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The biggest flaw I see in modern relationship counseling is this bullshit idea that when we identify a relationship problem (i.e., something my spouse is fucking up), that our sole responsibility is to bring that to their attention. Tell them you have a boundary and won't tolerate it any longer.

There's been a good discussion here, much of which I garee with, much of which matches my experience, but I sort of got lot at the beginning - all the counseling I've had has been based on the idea that if I have a problem, it's up to me to initiate the discussion and work through a solution.

It ain't a problem until it's reported...and the person who reports the problem owns it until someone else accepts ownership from the reporter.

All the counseling I've had says that statements like 'I'm not happy' or 'I'm unhappy with the way you do _____' put me and the other person square into the Drama Triangle, and nothing good can or will come of that.

Certainly there are a lot of fucked up counselors, none of the stuff I've read ever suggested that a problem can be solved with passive-aggressiveness.

Let's be aware of real flaws in C theory and practice, but this seems like a straw man to me.

Any citations?


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

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