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User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 9
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Let's be aware of real flaws in C theory and practice, but this seems like a straw man to me.

Any citations?

This may, in fact, be a valid criticism. That whole thought bubble was kicked off by aggregating advice from counselors gleaned from SI. Obviously, I don't sit in counseling sessions with everyone here, so it could be that what I've heard (way too often) is biased reporting -- or simply partially understood concepts -- and things are really more nuanced.

What I do know is that we frequently see people report "I told my spouse repeatedly that there was a problem", but very infrequently do we see that a solution was proposed, and it usually is followed by some variety of "...and they blew me off".

So maybe it's not fair to level the criticism at counselors and better to level the criticism at methods of implementation. And even then, it's probably not right to use the word "criticism", but more of a "let's be mindful when we're approaching a situation about our responsibilities to the problem if we decide to raise it" situation.

I agree that this has been an enormously productive conversation about navigating relationships (even post- or sans- infidelity). Historically for me, one of the biggest issues I have to own is that when a problem is identified, sometimes my first reaction is to try to invalidate it because I just don't want to change my routines. Instead of empathizing with my wife, I choose to view it in terms of how it's going to inconvenience me.

I really liked hardlessons discussion above about the fact that sometimes there are no solutions, and a valuable part of the process is just agreeing to accept that things are the way they are for now. (I mean, per that example, if the barrier to spending more time together is that one spouse works 70 hours a week, it's easy to say you should work fewer hours and give that time to bonding with your spouse -- but that's going to require mutual sacrifice, possibly a lowered standard of living, because there's less money coming in. So it needs to be clear that if we're collectively going to prioritize us-time over work-time, then there's going to be less cash flow, and having to give up the cable bill or giving up our out-of-town weekend once a month can't become a source of resentment going forward.)

I've been saying for years that men have bought into the myth that women know about relationship stuff more than we do. I think this thread is Exhibit A that we've got just as good a grasp on the nuances of navigating relationships responsibly as anyone else.

Finally, this bit by FacePunched really resonates with me:

I would imagine that in order for us to be where we are now, in the world's second worst club (first goes to the people on "Locked-up Abroad"....sweet Christ, it's brutal), we all let our hard boundaries (if we had any) be violated in some manner. For me, I allowed my WW to hang out unaccompanied with male friends in a scenario where alcohol was present. That's not hanging the A on me, just saying that particular area was something I should've stomped on instantly, and I didn't for a number of reasons.

I didn't want to be THAT jealous guy.
I felt secure in my relationship.
I was definitely the more social creature, so I was happy she was branching out.
...and a bunch of other reasons.

I still remember when my wife was starting to go off the rails, I sat her down a few times because I didn't think the way she was behaving was appropriate for a married woman (staying out late partying with xOM and his ex-wife, sleeping over at their house, etc.).

When she shot me down enough times, I eventually stopped bringing it up and said to myself "She's an adult. It's not my place to tell her what she can and can't do." The root of that was that I had to acknowledge that I also didn't really want someone else telling me what I could or couldn't do, either.

So, as FP suggests, I didn't want to be THAT guy. I moved my boundaries of what was tolerable because I was sure that if I insisted on things now, there would be a price to pay later -- and I'd have to acquiesce to whatever demands she might make in the interest of equality.

To some extent, that was all okay when I still believed that even though she was being irresponsible, leaving me with the kids while she spent the night out carousing, etc., that there were certain lines that she simply would not cross. Now I know better. Now I know what the possibilities are -- and even though I 100% believe that my wife now wouldn't cross those lines again, the old logic doesn't cut it anymore. I have an obligation to stand up for my own boundaries.


Machiavellian idiot savant

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Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, March 15th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't have anything useful to contribute but found this relevant:


"Anyone who says that they're great at communicating but 'people are bad at listening' is confused about how communication works."


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

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Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, March 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Historically for me, one of the biggest issues I have to own is that when a problem is identified, sometimes my first reaction is to try to invalidate it because I just don't want to change my routines. Instead of empathizing with my wife, I choose to view it in terms of how it's going to inconvenience me.

I used to try to invalidate problems and/or feelings when I felt that they weren't reality-based. Case in point: my wife used to complain about me not helping with our son enough...I just kind of went with it, but after a while I got tired of hearing it, so I sat down one day and figured out, on a weekly basis, the amount of time we both spent with various child-related activities. Turned out, I actually spent MORE time with him, doing more activities. I pointed it out to her the next time she brought the issue up....and herein lies one of my biggest issues. How do you go about validating someone's feelings when you feel as though their feelings are based on an issue that is not based in reality?

I still remember when my wife was starting to go off the rails, I sat her down a few times because I didn't think the way she was behaving was appropriate for a married woman (staying out late partying with xOM and his ex-wife, sleeping over at their house, etc.).

When she shot me down enough times, I eventually stopped bringing it up and said to myself "She's an adult. It's not my place to tell her what she can and can't do." The root of that was that I had to acknowledge that I also didn't really want someone else telling me what I could or couldn't do, either.

This is a sort of weird area for me. My wife only started exhibiting really erratic behavior during about the last month of the A, which is when it became sexual, if I believe what she's told me. That's when she started fights over little things, as an excuse to leave the house. I should say that's what she TRIED to do, but I never let it get to that point, due in large part to the fact that when I ask where she would go, she didn't have a clear answer. Before that, I never noticed anything even a little bit off. Oddly enough, even during that time period, if I had flat out demanded her phone or email passwords, she almost definitely would've given them to me, because she knows if she refused, I would've sensed something was up for damn sure, whereas with the passwords and such I might look from time to time and find nothing. Anytime in the past I asked for them (pre-A), she handed them over with no hesitation, plus I don't keep my stuff locked down. Again, it's letting my boundaries slip...I could've asked for that info post-haste, as soon as I started wondering, but didn't for fear of how I'd come across, as jealous. I was in the mindset of "Well, what if I DO ask, and then look, and there's nothing there....then I just look like a controlling asshole..."

I really liked hardlessons discussion above about the fact that sometimes there are no solutions, and a valuable part of the process is just agreeing to accept that things are the way they are for now

Agreed. I'm fine with the "no solution-solution", provided that's what we mutually agree upon, and you don't try to use the lack of a solution against me later. In the past when we'd reach an impasse, I'd suggest counseling as a way to figure some stuff out, which my wife balked at (back then) because she has/had a whole shit-ton of CSA/FOO issues she's avoided dealing with for years, and she knew that those things would come up at some point.

And finally...I dug this WAL post out of an old thread , and IT resonated with ME, so figured I'd put it up:

This is, once again, a me thing that may not apply to others. If I take the high road when someone has tried to hurt me -- whether they were successful or not -- when I look in the mirror, I don't see something be proud of. I see myself as a wuss for letting them get away with it, for daring to think they could.

I'm much happier looking in the mirror knowing that they tried to hurt me, but it was their little red wagon that got busted.

It takes a great deal to provoke me, admittedly, and I'm enormously easy going, but once that switch gets flipped, I'm not fighting fair and I'm not stopping until I win, even if that means burning the relationship to the ground in the process.

This is where I'm struggling right now with regards to the POSOM. I want to bust his little red wagon in some way. I can look myself squarely in the eye for attempting to R with my wife for any number of reasons. But it's much harder to look myself in the mirror without thinking that some asshole who was supposed to be a really good friend did this to you. Not by himself, I get that, but he still participated. He fired the opening shot in a war that I'm not allowed to partake in. And worse yet, he's been running around during the course of the whole A telling everyone what an asshole I am, and post DDay, sent my WW a FB message (which she promptly gave me) explaining that she should inform *me* that *I* don't want a war with *him*, cuz it'd end badly for me. It's like North Korea hitting the U.S. with a ICBM, and then us not responding due to the larger consequences...but then afterwards Kim Jong Un runs around telling us and everyone else "Yeah, fuck those guys, they don't want a war with me!", knowing full well we could wipe them off the map, given the time, chance, and incentive.

I'll probably never do anything. The consequences of my actions would be too severe. But that's it. That's the only thing stopping me. I derive zero satisfaction from 'being the better man.' Z-E-R-O. I suppose in an ideal world, he'd off himself from some combination of shame and depression, and I'd go to his funeral and tell everyone what a terrible person he was. That's as close as I'm likely to come to satisfaction. And it's driving me nuts...I mean, I have gut-wrenching pain almost daily about my revenge-ey desires.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 2:00 PM, March 16th (Saturday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1604 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, March 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't remember...did I write that about WW's or about OM's?

Not that it matters. I think it applies either way.

That could just be the way I'm built, though. I'm a revenge guy, so I have trouble feeling even regret when I've repaid harm for harm. That's why I've never gotten the bit about "life well lived" being the best revenge. I like revenge. It satisfies a deep part of me -- the planning, the execution, all of it.

It takes a while to get on my shit list, but once you're on it, I'm afraid I'm rather relentless until my desire for justice is satisfied.

In fact, that was one of the ways I knew that reconciliation with my wife was possible: no matter how much I wanted to inflict an equal amount of pain, I restrained myself where she was concerned. Yes, part of that was that I didn't want to model that relationship dynamic for my kids, but most of it was just that I cared for her too much to be as brutal as I would have been under different circumstances, with somene else who had chosen to "go to war" with me on such an intimate level.

This is also why I don't give a bunch of revenge-based advice on threads like that when they pop up. I'm convinced that most people aren't revenge types. They will come to deeply regret immersing themselves in that muck. (For the record, I also believe that nearly all affairs are rooted in revenge. As soon as you justify it to yourself, you've come to believe that your partner deserves to be hurt in that particular way. That's what revenge is -- believing someone else is worthy of being harmed.) If you're not a revenge person, you're never going to get any satisfaction out of it...just the sense that you failed your own moral code or whatever. That's why I stay out of the topic -- I don't want to inadvertantly encourage someone to hurt themselves.

If you are a revenge guy, you don't need anyone to tell you it's okay. You just know, so it doesn't occur to you to ask whether or not it's acceptable.

For the record, at 6.5 years from D-Day, trying to reconfigure myself as a person whose default is forgiveness and understanding rather than revenge -- especially when the hurt is egregious -- is one of my self-work tasks. I don't know that I'll ever see it as something done from a position of strength, but the religious side of me says that I'm allowed to be weak in that regard. My job is to do what God expects from me and trust in his sovereignty.

Results thus far are mixed.


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Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, March 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't remember...did I write that about WW's or about OM's?

I do not recall, honestly. I found it while perusing some older stuff. Maybe BM 7 or 8, I don't know.

I like revenge. It satisfies a deep part of me -- the planning, the execution, all of it.

Of the few times in my life I've been able to get actual revenge, of the legal sort, it's been a mostly immensely satisfying experience. The blowback from unintended consequences was not always the greatest thing ever, but it didn't make me regret it at all. It was more along the lines of "Oh...so THAT just happened. Didn't expect that." It was never anywhere near enough to make me regret the decision.

In fact, that was one of the ways I knew that reconciliation with my wife was possible: no matter how much I wanted to inflict an equal amount of pain, I restrained myself where she was concerned.

Re: My Wife, I'd say along similar lines. The few times I let slip what I'd like to do to the OM, my WW was not thrilled with that brief glimpse into my pysche, and wondered aloud why I don't want revenge on her, since she's as guilty, if not more. My only answer is that historically I've always been ridiculously forgiving (probably too much so) of the ones I love. My dad is like that, too. I don't have the time and/or patience to constantly worry whether a loved one is going to stab me in the back. I don't forget, I just stop actively worrying about it.

I'll leave the topic of revenge alone, because I know how the general consensus on here plays out, and I can feel the 2x4s a comin'. I'll leave with two of my favorite quotes.

“The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves.”

“People should either be caressed or crushed. If you do them minor damage they will get their revenge; but if you cripple them there is nothing they can do. If you need to injure someone, do it in such a way that you do not have to fear their vengeance.”

Peace out. I'm off to feed the man-child and watch American Psycho.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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Default  Posted: 11:34 PM, March 16th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL I always wondered... *what* did you do after all? :)


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PanicAttack53
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Default  Posted: 12:45 AM, March 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello again brothers!

Sorry for not responding back until now (especially after WAL's excellent post, all the discussion it's created... and even a re-post in LTA).

Anyway, since I've always been a kinesthetic learner, it took me over a week to fully digest WAL's original post and subsequent replies. (BTW, I also nominate that post for "Healing Library” material).

Since printing and reading/rereading the post and replies, I've tried to play them out in my mind and apply the information to the last 38 years... with reference to my own situation. I have to tell you that there have been a lot of "Ah-Ha" moments for me in doing that. Most of these centers around my codependency issues back then… and especially my knack for conflict avoidance. I became a master at avoidance, when it came to not standing up for myself in my M. Note that is not me beating myself up over the past... just a true reckoning of how I operated back then.

One of the many paragraphs in WAL’s post that resonated with me was...

If you ever had the thought, "Boy, if that was any woman other than my wife, I'd say that was pretty hinky behavior", you know what I'm talking about. If you ever watched a buddy just absolutely get his shit reamed by his bitch-wife and thought, "Man, that reminds me of that one time my wife...", then you also know what I'm talking about.

This seems a really simple concept to understand now... but back in the day... back when I was blinded by my codependency, conflict avoidance, unconditional love/trust... whatever I choose to call it now... I couldn't even begin to contemplate this for any length of time. Let alone fully grasp it. I did have moments where this light would come on and flicker momentarily in my mind… always during stbxWW's verbal, nonverbal & inaction abuse. However, without the explosion caused by the discovery of her LTA, 11 months of false R… and subsequently filing for D, it would have never sunk in to the degree it has now. I guess in a sick twisted sort of way, I should be thankful to stbxWW for finally opening my eyes to her true self and the fact that I deserved more from our relationship.

So being still codependent, fast forward to 2 months after d-day and my vain attempt to R with stbxWW. I now come to this insightful piece from WAL's post...

The default shouldn't be reconciliation, not without that honest inventory of your betrayals list that forces you to ask yourself if this person was ever really fit for marriage with you -- because it's going to be clear from her justification pattern that she's got a whole raft of pre-A issues that she's still itching to take you to task for, even while she's telling you out of the other side of her mouth that her A was the price you paid for that multitude of sins.

Bingo, bongo, ditty bop... and the post fog clarity, or should I say cleansing of the last 38 years continues...

Here’s a perfect example of the above, and how fucked up I was back then. I remember reading through some of the 1000's of email convos between stbxWW and OM. I came across one where they were discussing how "they" (me & OMBW) deserved to be cheated on... because "we" were such pains in their asses & unable/unwilling to give them what they needed. I also remember after reading it, how I bought into their psycho babble thinking they just may be right. It's unbelievable for me to wrap my head around now... but it shows what a mind fuck codependency can be… and the load of absolute bullshit a codependent will allow him/her self to buy into. I truly couldn't see the forest for the trees back then.

"ask yourself if this person was ever really fit for marriage with you"

Damn!... this one really caused me to reflect and dig deep. Looking back, I now realize that stbxWW was the antithesis of my personality when we married. That has gotten even worse as we aged. Where I have always been (for the most part) outgoing, optimistic and willing to accept change… she is introverted, negative and like an Ostridge when anything remotely challenging arises. I’m not saying that she is evil because of her personality, just that it is the complete opposite of mine and that I now fully understand it.

What love does not do is call the truth a lie, and a lie the truth. Love doesn't pretend that the abuser is not. It extends grace to the abuser in the hope that the abuser will become something better...and it also loves itself enough to care for its own needs and safety. Love does not break itself so the abuser can feel better about who they are while aspiring to nothing.

Huh… another “Ah-Ha” moment here. During our 11 months of false R, stbxWW and I were both going to IC every week. While I can’t comment on what was happening in hers, I was beginning to grow by leaps and bounds. Every week I began to discover new things about myself and recover from my codependency and other issues. During that time, I was also turned on to spirituality and mindfulness by another councilor I saw. While I didn’t press any of this on stbxWW, I would tell her about it now and then. She finally told me that while she was glad I was rediscovering myself, it also scared her to death. She admitted to me that she felt like the new path I was on would bring me to realize I didn’t want her or our M anymore. She pressed this issue even more during the last months we were together. Initially when she told me all this, I actually contemplated giving it all up as my codependency kicked in again and I told myself that maybe I needed to give it up to be successful in R and save our M. Thank God I wised up and pulled my head out of my ass before going this route. I did try in vain to explain to her that what I was working on in myself was helping me grow as a human being… and that there was nothing to be afraid of with regard to our M. I told her that due to this growth, I was even more committed to making our M work.

None of us should settle for less than we deserve from those we love. We've made that mistake in the past, and we've seen how it ends. You want real love? Demand as much as you give. If your partner isn't up to it, accept that and move on to someone worthy of you -- all viewed through the lenses of honest self-reflection and grace. You can still grade on a curve, but if you're tempted to change the answer in the teacher's edition of the textbook, then chances are you're going to far.

It’s funny, but I now realize that ALL her fears and what she admitted to me about rediscovering myself were nothing more than outward expressions of her own brokenness and low self esteem. It had absolutely nothing to do with her loving me, nor any desire to continue to R or save our M. What she was really afraid of was that she wouldn’t be able to have control over me any longer… that I was gaining knowledge, self esteem and realizing how fucked up it was for me to just be a doormat for her. She was seeing me become less and less codependent everyday and was realizing for the first time in 38 years that my world didn’t solely orbit around her anymore. In its essence, her whining to me about what I was becoming was nothing more than another layer of abuse whether conscious or subconscious. In my book, true love doesn’t deprive, stifle or deny growth and happiness. It doesn’t run away in fear because it can’t understand. And it most certainly doesn’t try to control or place demands on self worth. In my book, the exact opposite (unselfishness) is ALLWAYS the truest expression of love. That love shouldn’t be offered to someone (or yourself) with a price tag or fine print… but rather with true unselfish humility… otherwise the giving of it tends to get skewed and/or perverted. I’m done with false love. From here on out, if I can’t have love offered with unselfish terms, I choose not to accept it and move on.

And for the love of God, always remember that you know yourself better than anybody you're married to/dating/in a relationship with. If they're full of shit, trust yourself well enough to acknowledge that they're full of shit (or FOO or childhood trauma or whatever other base they might be working from).

I don’t want to get off on a spirituality tangent here, but I just finished watching a movie called “The Shift”. Anyone who is familiar with Wayne Dyer will know what this is about. For those who don’t, it’s about finally realizing what is important to “YOU” as you mature and evolve in your life. To find out whom you really are and want to be. As I now see it, this can be especially important as it applies to relationships. For me, it applies in the sense that I now believe “I” personally have begun my own “Shift”. I am finally beginning to realize that I deserve to be happy… and that “I” am the only one in the universe that can truly make that happen. Also, that I can still be caring, compassionate and give/share happiness without being codependent and sacrificing my own dignity as a human being. I’m not there yet, but I’m really starting to enjoy this new journey.

As WAL so aptly put it… Peace.

[This message edited by PanicAttack53 at 12:50 AM, March 17th (Sunday)]


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Rest of the story really doesn't matter any more.
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Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, March 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not sure this is really a Betrayed Men post, but this is where the issue came up.
The biggest flaw I see in modern relationship counseling is this bullshit idea that when we identify a relationship problem (i.e., something my spouse is fucking up), that our sole responsibility is to bring that to their attention. Tell them you have a boundary and won't tolerate it any longer.

...
Certainly there are a lot of fucked up counselors, none of the stuff I've read ever suggested that a problem can be solved with passive-aggressiveness.

Let's be aware of real flaws in C theory and practice, but this seems like a straw man to me.

Any citations?

This may, in fact, be a valid criticism. That whole thought bubble was kicked off by aggregating advice from counselors gleaned from SI. Obviously, I don't sit in counseling sessions with everyone here, so it could be that what I've heard (way too often) is biased reporting -- or simply partially understood concepts -- and things are really more nuanced.

Those of us with personal experience and observations are quite capable of making these statements on our own. Citations are required for academic work, largely because the people using them are "studying" a topic without the benefit of personal experience, observation, interaction, or knowledge of the topic. Citations are in fact a weak form of argument, relying on the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, the authority being the one cited. There are many instances of quote by political figures that could have sources cited, and those sources could cite their own sources in a long chain, and at the end of it all is someone who just made the shit up because it seemed funny. Examples that come to mind are "I can see Russia from my house" (was actually Tina Fey), and "I wish I had studied latin in school for my trips to Latin America". Both of these were jokes being made by others, then repeated endlessly as though they were truth, with each person repeating it citing the one they heard it from.

Now on to the point. If we are to accept those with professional credentials and jobs as the authority on this stuff, we should examine the background that informs their position. Not just the educational background, but examine the motivation behind their choice.

I would love to believe in a world where everyone was so altruistic and self aware that they chose to focus on the field where they were most suited to helping people. I am not that naive. People generally put in the kind of effort required to gain credentials when it has some personal meaning to them. In the midst of this shit storm, I actually spent some time on google to see what it would take to become licensed as a marriage counsellor to specialize in infidelity. I have recently had some extensive dealings with social workers regarding my BIL, and I can say that many, if not most, of those who I encountered, if not employed in the social services field, would be clients of it. I see no reason to believe that everyone who chooses to become a therapist or psychologist is doing so because they are a happy well adjusted person who wants to help others. They usually develop an interest in it because of their own issues.

When I first went to MC, I found the idea of having a female MC/IC to be appealing, thinking it would be easier to talk, because who wants to be telling this shit to a guy. What I found was an extreme gender bias, with enough training to conceal it. One actually went so far as to use private sessions with my STBXWW to aid her in the conduct of her affair by revealing confidential information from my sessions (while refusing to reveal any information about what my STBXWW had told her during her sessions). The reason these women had gone into relationship counselling was to determine why they failed, or to learn how to manipulate relationships to get what they wanted (I am not privy to enough details to determine which applies).

Anyway, I do believe that with the collective experience here on SI, we are capable of drawing certain conclusions about various topics, after we filter the unreliable data. Lately, I have not been as helpful as I feel I should, because I spend a lot of time trying to filter. I have a really hard time addressing things based on logical fallacies, especially my current favorite which I call Reductio Ad Squirrel.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


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Flame  Posted: 4:55 PM, March 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quick vent. Saw POSOM outside his job smoking 10 minutes ago, but couldn't confront due to having my son, 6, with me. I am literally shaking with rage right now, and I have to go back to work. Fuck.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, March 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FacePunched, there was an old episode of The X Files that centered on the Smoking Man, and what had happened in his life to put him where he was (including a magazine publisher changing the ending to his novel). The episode ended with him staring through the scope of a rifle at one of the conspiracy guys seemed to be getting too close. His final words of the episode were "I can kill you whenever I please, but not today". Then he packed up his rifle and gear and left.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


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Default  Posted: 8:06 PM, March 17th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That was a GREAT episode. Thanks for the reminder, and the post. I'm better now. It was the first time I've seen him IRL since DDay. From that episode: "The Bills will never win the Super Bowl while I'm around"


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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Default  Posted: 3:45 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Considering what a clusterfuck that whole series turned out to be, that is perhaps the only episode that still stands as worth watching again.

Note to writers everywhere, when you start telling a story, have some sort of a plan on where it is going.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


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Default  Posted: 4:16 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Considering what a clusterfuck that whole series turned out to be, that is perhaps the only episode that still stands as worth watching again.
Note to writers everywhere, when you start telling a story, have some sort of a plan on where it is going.

Hahaha. Totally agree. It's like Chris Carter had a REALLY solid plan in place through about halfway or so into the series, and then once the series' end (or at least the main arcs) started needing to come to a logical conclusion, he couldn't figure out where to go with it. I still feel like the stand-alone episodes hold up pretty well. The fluke episode, for example...or the one where they visit that hick town and when they relay the story to Skinner, Mulder and Scully have drastically different recollections.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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Default  Posted: 4:39 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aesir-
When I first went to MC, I found the idea of having a female MC/IC to be appealing, thinking it would be easier to talk, because who wants to be telling this shit to a guy. What I found was an extreme gender bias, with enough training to conceal it.

My wife and I started attending MC after I started posting on here, and I'm really, really leery of this sort of thing. Just going off of what I've seen on here regarding peoples experience (especially the BS) with bad counselors essentially telling the BS, "Hey, if you were takin' care of business at home (sexually/emotionally/housework-ly), this never would've happened...", which as we know, is a crock of shit. We're still in our MC infancy, more or less, and so far, so good, but the worry is still there. She's called my WW out on her shit at least once so far. My main concern is that since I was the one who really pushed for counseling (for a long time, even pre-A), that if it starts to seem like we have a 'bad' counselor (to me), and I want to switch...it's just going to seem like I want to switch because things aren't going the way I want them to, you know?

But we're both comfortable with her, and so far she seems pretty solid, but we shall see. I was able to get some stuff off my chest last week...was supposed to be MC, but my son stayed home sick from school spewing from both ends, so she stayed home with him and I went by myself. It was fairly cathartic. A lot of our first MC sessions focused on our individual backgrounds, my wife's FOO issues-related background, and sort of how/why we were there. This was really only my second time to get all the frustration off my chest to someone who wasn't my wife, and it felt really good. The counselor basically told me (paraphrasing, obviously), "Hey, I know this whole thing is ridiculously painful for you, and we haven't gotten into the meat of the whole A yet. We will. You are handling all this like a champ." It just felt so, so good to hear someone tell me that. It was like an emotional hug. I've kept the entire A a secret from everyone, and it felt good to have an outside perspective to talk to.

On an unrelated note, I was hanging with my best friend the other day, and he told me he has thought about cheating on his GF lately. His GF may be my second least favorite person on the planet, and I'm 99.9% convinced she's screwing around on him, but I still ripped him a new one. He tried to throw all the standard excuses, "She doesn't do (this) or (that), and if she's not willing to, someone else will." I told him, yeah, someone else probably will. So break up with your GF and go find that person. He didn't like it when I informed him that cheating on her says more about him than it does about her, either.

Alright gentlemen, I'm off to the gym, have a good one.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

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Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife and I started attending MC after I started posting on here, and I'm really, really leery of this sort of thing. Just going off of what I've seen on here regarding peoples experience (especially the BS) with bad counselors essentially telling the BS, "Hey, if you were takin' care of business at home (sexually/emotionally/housework-ly), this never would've happened...", which as we know, is a crock of shit.

A crock? not really IMO…
Before you marry, the mask are on. In almost every marriage, the beginning, the romance phase of a marriage, everyone is on there best behaviors. You wear a mask and she wears a mask. Then after the mask come off, the real you and the real her is exposed. The result? Disillusionment.

How you handle this disillusionment is absolutely critical. If you do nothing like me, you get cheated on.

I will use a very simple situation to make a point. Do you dare fart on a first date? You do that and my bet is you get no more dates.. right?

It’s no different with hundreds of other things you changed after you got married. The “I do” becomes security. You are no longer trying to be attractive like you were in the romance phase of the M. Can I remind you of a common slogan..the ole 7 year itch thing.. We forget about romancing our W’s, they might even do the same to us, the sex drops, other attractive things, it is like a very slow bleed in the love bucket. Either the man or woman then may naturally switch focus to our jobs, our kids, hobbies.. The bucket gets very low on both sides.

Then you have a man on the opposite end. Perhaps exactly like you. He quits romancing his wife. She no longer gave him her sex. A few flirts, a few words.. Then the snake charming begins. Or how about this.. I know a man who once disliked his W’s controlling behaviors so much, he disqualified his wife to the point he made it a game to try and fuck married woman who’s H were not paying attention. He did it with intent. It is done exactly like I said above.

The perfect storm.. A woman who’s man started farting and a snaking charming man how natural affirmation is mainly wanting pussy. Unless you are strong at enforcing boundaries and keenly aware how you live your daily love life, a human in disillusionment will eat the apple. You are likely to either fall into the betrayer, or be victim.. Odds 1 of 3 infidelity. Look around folks at work, at church, at ball games, etc…. 1 of 3.

Many people will take what I just told you and call it blame shifting. I am not blaming me for the choice made by my W, that was her choice not mine. … She had no right to send me into a trauma. It was her responsibility to make sure I clearly understood she had feelings for another man. Her own fears prevented that. Nothing any one of us can do for choices other peoples make.

And then it becomes.. do you both want to try and make the M work.

So the pros are telling you to look at yourself very hard…very honest.. what was it within me where when all this signs of not being loved, why did I react the way I reacted? Why did I let my W push me back under that rock? The pros are doing this you can now protect yourself in the future. Be a different man. Why? Because that is all you can control. You cannot fix your W, she must want to fix herself. And there things she must do on her own.

When you can truly be honest with yourself, then can discover the reasons.. You failed to stay attractive.. You failed to have good boundaries, which is an attraction in itself.. You then discover the secret to the healthiest marriages.

Men who are always attractive, always enforce those strong boundaries.. don’t get cheated on. By the time they get to a point where a woman will cheat, she will be far gone. And a man happy will always have a woman who joins him mutually. She is willing and wants that man, she will do anything for this man. When he finds this woman, he is keenly aware and he fills all her needs, every one of those needs to the best of his ability. He expects nothing less in return from his partner. If he gets less, he brings on safe healthy conflicts.. if he see he us with an irrational woman not having the values of reciprocity, that man will dismiss that woman. No “I do” prevents this man from maintaining his own happiness. This man has courage. Most of us I bet had that once…


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Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn, you not doing anything didn't make her cheat any more than it made her divorce you, poison your coffee or cut out the crotch to all your pants.

Yeah, it's shitty to just let things go. I concur with the crock perspective, though. Plenty of guys romance their wives and they cheat. Plenty of women sex up their husbands and they cheat. The idea that they wandered off to cheat because of some influential behavioral deficiency in us is grasping at an illusion of control.

The idea that men who are attractive and enforce strong boundaries don't get cheated on is, just to state it plainly, bullshit. Stating and enforcing boundaries really only works like that when both parties are observing the rules. Cheating is kind of the fundamental idea of surreptitiously avoiding those rules in order to duck under the consequences of violating them.


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Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Men who are always attractive, always enforce those strong boundaries.. don’t get cheated on.

This...I don't know about this. You really think that guys that enforce strong boundaries and are always attractive don't get cheated on? Because, again, that DOES sound like blameshifting to me. Let's assume the opposite: that the guys that get cheated on, do so because they are unattractive and don't enforce strong boundaries? I take two issues with this:

1) You are, in one form or another, blaming the BH, no? As is oft-repeated 'round these parts: I will own my part of the marriage, good, bad, or otherwise. However, I had issues with my WW pre-A as well, and "fuck some other chick" was NOT on my list of acceptable remedies to the situation, whereas it WAS on hers. That means she wears the A.

2) You can enforce your boundaries all that you like, but some WW are pretty sneaky about it the A, wherein it may not appear your boundaries have been nudged. As WAL said earlier, any honest self-reflection would force almost every BH to admit that somewhere along the line they made little compromises with their boundaries...but we're ALL discussing these issues with the benefit of hindsight, and those boundary-crossing gaffes were made in the interest of compromise in a relationship we believed (probably, anyway) to be mostly healthy and nurturing. Any time that the doors get blown off the way they do post-DDay, EVERYTHING that has to do with flirting, or cheating, or 'boundary crossing' becomes more readily apparent.

To me, it's similar to when someone commits suicide. The first reaction is shock, but the second reaction is oftentimes to look for clues in the past that would lead you to believe that was a possible course of action for that person. Conversations and whatnot wherein at the time it seemed like venting, but with the clarity of hindsight was a cry for help. Now, clearly, if a friend told you that they were considering suicide (a boundary crossing of a different sort) you'd immediately recognize the problem and call a suicide hotline or something....but you're not going to call the suicide hotline every time that friend is venting, because in that moment, it would seem an overreaction, no?

It’s no different with hundreds of other things you changed after you got married. The “I do” becomes security. You are no longer trying to be attractive like you were in the romance phase of the M. Can I remind you of a common slogan..the ole 7 year itch thing.. We forget about romancing our W’s, they might even do the same to us, the sex drops, other attractive things, it is like a very slow bleed in the love bucket. Either the man or woman then may naturally switch focus to our jobs, our kids, hobbies.. The bucket gets very low on both sides.

This ^^^ happens in probably EVERY single marriage ever....but again, this is more in the chapter titled, "Why Your Marriage Was Susceptible..." and not the much, much longer chapter titled, "We're Sorry You're Here: Why You Wife Is (Probably) More Broken Than You" with a sub-chapter called, "But Don't Forget How Much You Fucked Up Before the A...Now Fix Thyself". There is a vast cornucopia of perfectly legitimate responses to marital issues that don't involve other people's squishy parts, and I'd reckon most of us here would've preferred any number of them over this.

By the time they get to a point where a woman will cheat, she will be far gone. And a man happy will always have a woman who joins him mutually. She is willing and wants that man, she will do anything for this man. When he finds this woman, he is keenly aware and he fills all her needs, every one of those needs to the best of his ability. No “I do” prevents this man from maintaining his own happiness. This man has courage. Most of us I bet had that once…

This, to me, comes off as a reason to be a caveman, no? I put down my boundaries, I enforce them with an iron boot, and woe befall the woman who crosses them...and don't misunderstand me, I'm all for the application and enforcement of clear boundaries on both sides. Certain things are absolute non-negotiables, but I wouldn't have known what those are until this catastrofuck happened to me. Clearly, going forward, I'll be a lot more clear about where I stand in relation to certain actions. But you know what? Even if I backslide ALLLLLLLLL the way into Not-Giving-Two-Fucks-ville, if I never tell her again how pretty she is, or smart she is, or ever have sex with her ever again....if her 'love bucket' is drier than the Sahara....if she cheats? STILL on her. Because she could've divorced me. Even that being said, running around like an unapologetic asshole "'cuz it keeps the wimmenz in line" is not my ideal relationship model. Not saying that's what you are, but that's how I would feel if I broke out the jackboot in order to boot some WW ass every time I got a little wary.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:08 AM, March 18th (Monday)]


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Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Plenty of women sex up their husbands and they cheat.

It's funny, in my case it was the opposite. Not related to the A, per se (this happened before), but my wife has always been really, really, ummm, picky about when we have sex. It's gotten better over the years, but it's still there. Now, anytime I wanted sex and got blown off, I was expected to just let it roll off my back and keep it moving along with my day. If I pushed too much, I got chastised (admittedly, sometimes playfully) about how she didn't feel like it. I wasn't getting reamed or anything.

But when she wanted to have sex? If I wasn't in the mood?

Ohhhh man. Total ballistic meltdown. Crying, the works, about how I make her feel unattractive, which transitioned into conversations about how I don't compliment her enough, etc. Side note: Telling your wife that you are not responsible for her self-esteem and/or repeating that quote about no one making you feel inferior without your consent is a perfectly valid, yet ill-advised course of action at this particular juncture. Trust me.

So eventually I got tired of the game-playing and I told her. I cut her off from my penis for 3 1/2 months. Not so much as a handjob. You'd think that this would bug ME, but I've always been able to sort of turn my sex drive off at will. She went nuts. Was it childish...probably, kinda sorta. I know that there are certainly more rational, communicatory-based responses to the issue...but damn it, I was taking a principled stand.

Oh, the point of this? Besides this 3 month-ish period, I gave my wife all the sex she could want, more or less. Didn't matter.

Sidebar over.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:20 AM, March 18th (Monday)]


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Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Still
Plenty of guys romance their wives and they cheat

Ok, fair enough.. I won’t be so general this time.. Think the following bull shit? A woman can sniff this shit out.

Was that man romancing for one reason? To get pussy? His neediness to be affirmed with sex.. That man who thinks just rolling over grabbing tits.. never warming her up thought out the day with words, gifts, touch.. let’s just give her 15 minutes or so.. Never slowly build the heat and fervor? Giver her a flower.. I romance you give me sex.
what about that man who once is finished with sex just rolls over and passes out not holding caring enough to use that time for intimacy that a woman needs? Never touches his wife until it is time to have sex.. never rubs her back until.. you know that kind of romance.. The begging for sex.. the pouting man when he does not get sex.. The man who never stimulates his wife with sex stories..Man who never initiate sex.
A man who never even makes eye contact with his W..
The man who romances but only concern is getting his own rocks off. Then I’m done..
Did that man live off his wife’s hard labor? Was there equality? How long did this man live off unemployment? Off his wife?
What about a man who does not pull his weight around the house?
What about placing the family security at risk with bad investment bad decisions, or while in search to achieve his purpose on bad ideas? She wants a smart, successful businessman!
Did he do nothing for his own kids?
What about how he spent the family money? He spent it on what was value to him and never considering his wife.. like a hobby for example.
What about the respect he did not get by perhaps being a raciest? Cussing all the time?
Never grooming himself
A boring man who never stimulated his partners mind, never different.. same ole same ole..
What about him everyday not giving back to his community?
Those roving eyes at the restaurant.. A man who flirts with other woman then says no big deal..
What about a man who does not appreciate what other do for him inside and outside the M?
What about hardly ever building his wife up with approval? Affirmations DAILY
What about living a man living his own life through his children’s? You’ve seen those who try and make their kids who they wanted to be..
What about a man who never let his W have girlfriends to do what woman need to.. woman things
What about a man too dependant on his W.. clingy?
What about a man who cannot love his W’s family? He cannot control his own emotions enough to put up with that family?
What about a man who is so particular he does not want to eat pussy and his wife wants that?
What about the man who places his job ahead of his W? What about a man who will work 5 days away from his wife making that relationship a weekend relationship.
What about a man who is constantly criticizing, complaining and whining? And does that toward his wife?
What about a man who NEVER says thank you or appreciates what his woman does?
What about a man who thinks things should always be done his way? Always telling his wife how She should be doing it or never allowing it to be done her way?
A man who does not let his wife make choices?
A man who never notices his wife when she had her nails done or bought a new dress.. what kind of wine she drinks..
A man who does not make out with his wife OFTEN. The man who does not keep his wife young

A man who hides things from his wife like his own masturbation or porn addictions
The man who is addicted to drugs, pot or alcohol.
What about a man who lets his health go? He does not work out to be fit?
The man fails to give his woman the time, effort or resources in things she wants and needs?
The man who never finds time to do things TOGETHER.
A man who is easily angered at the simple things and bother by the minor things?
What about a man who take the forceful approach to his relationship?
A man who might allow his W to have sex with other men.. let that special part of her be with another man?
What about a man who never defends his wife? Or didn’t at a critical time?
What about a man who never makes his wife laugh.. always serious?
A man who does not talk to his wife about interesting things?
A man who is not a leader but a follower.. Whatever honey…
The man who never touches his wife in front of others? Never says things in front of other is public to build her up?
The man who never gives his wife time to re-energize..
The man who never makes his wife feel as if she is needed!
The man never shows excitement for his wife…
The man always late.. Always putting things off until tomorrow and tomorrow.
The man who forget birthday, anniversaries, important dates, valentines day..
A man who does not has faith in a higher power when his wife does
A man wanting her to change into something she is not.. never or rarely willing to accept a compromise?
A negative man.. never positive.. a man unable to be a leader in good things..
a man not willing to challenge bad behaviors she dumps on you.. A weak man.


How about those things?

If you were that man above.. Hallelujah.. I'm wrong.

[This message edited by trynhard at 9:29 AM, March 18th (Monday)]


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Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, March 18th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok, fair enough.. I won’t be so general this time.. Think the following bull shit? A woman can sniff this shit out.

Brother, she can file for the big D. ANY. TIME. SHE. WANTS.

And those items you listed? All acceptable reasons to not be with someone. Not acceptable reasons to stab someone through the heart.

Dependent upon the situation, divorce could suck. Will suck. Could be expensive. Could be heart-wrenching....but it still exists as an option.

She has options. Maybe the choice is between shitty options, but they ARE there.


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