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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men- Part 9
5454real
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Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

^^^ Big issue for me too. I have a top 10 list of cognitive distortions... this one is on the list as "emotional reality". It is my WW's favorite along with negative filtering (finding the one negative detail and dwelling on it).

It often amazes me how a completely wonderful day can be ruined by a seemingly insignificant event. I.e., traffic sucked on the way to the wedding reception where everyone had a great time, but the only discussion afterwards revolved around the shitty drive. Can a glass half empty person become a half full?
How would they go about that, assuming they recognize it, and is it something I should 'help' with? Point out the negative view being expressed or is that just kicking the dog?


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2083 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:35 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The experience of a feeling is valid (I.e., we all feel what we feel), but that doesn't make the feeling itself valid.

Some feelings are inappropriate for their context, while others are rooted in flawed reasoning or misapplied history.

In other words, a feeling can be both subjectively valid and objectively wrong. That you feel it is valid. That doesn't stop you from being a dumbass.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Soo my wife just sent me these 2 texts.....don't know what to say back really.......

You were home all day yesterday and I get you're sick so I tried to be loving to you but I did want a little lovin in return. Then I felt comfortable enough to talk to you last night about feeling depressed and alone. I told you I need you. Not to carry my burdens or to be strong for me but to be my husband. To love me, love on me, be loving to me. To talk to me when you have concerns or problems. To be open. Communication the way we had it months ago. I want you to want me, to be sexually attracted to me. Twice we have taken a bath and twice you've blown me off for sex. You never even try for sex anymore. I had to walk past you twice this morning as you were brushing your teeth to get you to grab my butt. I know it sounds ridiculous but it makes me feel special to be wanted by my husband. You made me feel amazing the other day before we made love and you just kissed me...I felt loved. Then the next day it seemed, we take a shower and you never try to touch me. Do you full heartedly love me, want to be with me, sexually attracted to me? I feel like i have to beg for you to show anything towards me, like its hard for you to do these things. I know you're stressed but loving me should be easy, be calming. I wish you were attached to me the way I am to you. I can't get enough of you. You're literally my everything tyler. I love you more than I can explain and I plan to be with you forever, or as long as you want me. I'm so tired of feeling anxious because I don't know if you're going to stay with me. You say you love me and will forever but act like I repulse you. If I disgust you please just leave me. If its hard to love me or you have to try to love me then you don't truly love me and there's no point in staying. I hate talking to you in text at work bc I know I won't hear anything back but I tried talking to you last night and you just closed yourself off. I feel like you'd be better off without me...I think everyone would


I love you tyler. Always.
I'm sorry if I'm being overly attached, or annoying. I'm just telling you my problems and concerns so you know how to fix/if you want to fix anything. I know my complaining about my back has been annoying I promise I wont talk about it anymore. And I promise this will be my last text when you're at work. I shouldn't be annoying you. Enjoy your day, hope you can't wait to come home to me. I love you. With our love we can get through anything.


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It would be awfully hard for me not to just ignore those. So.Much.Whining. ... and the fact that she can't make the connection between fucking your friend and predictable feelings of repulsion.

Oh, but she's just letting you know what's going on with her (me me me) in the event that you want to fix it.

The only thing worse than manipulation is manipulation by idiots.

That said, you should probably try to find something nice to say. Something in the vein of, "Oh, sorry. I've had so much on my mind trying to keep my shit together that I haven't been as present as I should be. It must be hard for you to not have another cock to gargle while I'm occupied. Your tonsils must be so lonely!"

See? Empathy. It's a skill we all can learn.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BTW, it's a documented fact that I give terrible relationship advice, so you should probably be aware of that.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Three sentences and I've got the answer for fWW next time she gets that way. Perfectly worded in the concluding paragraph. Thanks WAL.

Although the later disclaimer is disquieting .

[This message edited by 5454real at 6:01 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2083 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Collector,

I thought the texts were nice and she communicated well.

I do not know your whole story, but are you consciously trying to punish her? Are you just not attracted to her because of your pain? Has physical touch always been her fave love language?

I would be honest back with her and show gratitude for her expressing her feelings. If you are just not in the mood because of your pain, just tell her that:

"Honey, thanks for sending me those texts, they did not annoy me. I just want you to know that you do not repulse me, I am just too sad (about your past behavior or whatever) to be in the mood, etc."

She is obviously insecure now and is looking at getting reassurance sexually.

The one statement I might address/challenge specifically:


If its hard to love me or you have to try to love me then you don't truly love me and there's no point in staying.

"Honey, I do love you that is why I am trying to work things out and forgive you. It is hard work and will be for a long time. I hope you can appreciate that. Your dealing with anxiety is part of the work effort that you have to do."

Well anyways, I think some type of gentle but honest approach is best...but I am an amateur here...

Jack


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd actually agree with MC_Jack under normal circumstances, but this is an example of what we used to call in the drunk and sober business "a person with no insight into their situation or themselves".

Trying to explain things to people with no insight is on the border between coddling and completely wasting your breath.

When she shows something more like remorse and less like just an unhappily empty vagina, that's when real strides can be made.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Reading over my shoulder, my wife just commented, "Some of my best lessons came from your rejection. I had to realize that it wasn't about my body, but about the way I'd acted -- which was a new insight for me."


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
MC_Jack
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Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Collector/tyler,

Since it is now 2 years since the infidelity, is it the infidelity that really bothers you or just her lack of contribution to building your family's future?

For me, the latter would be the main issue at this point since her mother is there.

So I can imagine your pain now: here you are taking care of this (worthless) woman and her family and she completely disrespected you. She needs to get to work and pull some weight. I might make that a condition of staying together...and going back to MC.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 6:21 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for all the insight guys. I didn't really get any help in the "im general" forum. Sorry to highjack the topic for a minute....

No I don't want to punish her. I feel bad that she's soo sad but I am too... The last few weeks I've barely been able to function. I feel like I can't catch my breath and can't calm down for hours at work. I do good to eat once a day. I obsess all day at work... I feel like I was chosen because I have a decent job, own my home and have insurance yada yada yada. Point is I am a very responsible person and OM wasn't. And even though I feel she's trying very hard for me she still can't get where I'm coming from. She at times tries to be patient with me and honest then other times she acts like (without saying it) like I should be over it by now... She can't just be honest and admit that she did all of it on purpose. She says he forced himself on her but I know that is not the case.... These are reasons why that happened shortly after Dday....

1. Told me he was "big" 

2. By krogers she started to cry saying she missed
him(reminded by skate park near by that they went to together once)

3.told me she wasn't sure what or who she wanted.

4. Porn experiment... Made me watch porn and try to masturbate. cried saying that it should bother her
but it didn't.

5.had him back over to my house over $80 without me there.
Said to get him out NOW or I was on my way and she said if
I was gonna be like that about it she could just go with
him.

She now says she can't remember saying any of these things....


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 7:03 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did I mention I have a bad bottling problem?


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Collector,

Not sure what a bad bottling problem is, but sounds like a hobby? If I'm wrong, this is bad advice, but if you had a bad video game problem, that's maybe a reason for her to want to go to marriage counseling or even divorce you, but no problem of yours made her have sex with another man. That's all her choice. What the hell is a bottling problem?


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm assuming you tend to bottle your feelings up and wait til you explode. Why do you have a hard time expressing your needs/emotions? Who taught you that/when did you learn it?


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2083 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No I don't want to punish her. I feel bad that she's soo sad but I am too... The last few weeks I've barely been able to function.

I think there's a marked difference between punishing through emotional rejection and displaying emotional rejection as an acknowledgement that someone has repeatedly acted in ways so heinous that they are no longer entitled to be in your "safe circle" of emotional support.

Having once stood in a church and said "I do" is not a lifetime entitlement to someone's core interior life. Your WW should know that as well as anyone, since she had to expel you from hers in order to start up the justification and resentment factory that led her into an affair in the first place.

(I'm a firm believer that no one cheats until they've first convinced themselves that their spouse deserves it. The exact recipe of that entitlement differs from wayward to wayward, but at the base, all affairs are a variety of revenge affair. When someone decides to cheat, they're paying their spouse back for some perceived slight or failure. As with feelings, those perceptions don't have to be accurate, but they're always going to appear valid.)

The fact is, the healthiest thing you can do for yourself is to *not* let her back into your safe circle until she earns her way back in through consistency and an extended period of not being an unfeeling, clueless, needy, whiny, this-is-your-problem shithead.

Until she can prove that, she has no right to make claims on you just because she once put a ring on your finger...and she's the last person on the planet who can start laying charges about obligations and entitlements contained in the marital covenant. The fact that she refuses to recognize that she has no legitimate standing to make claims on you or your interior life *until* she has proven herself worthy of it again is just one more indication that she's not anywhere close to insight.

She expects love to save the day.

Specifically, you loving her no matter how much of a fuck up she is. She's got no obligation not to be a fuck up in her mind, it appears.

True love is not unconditional. True love respects both the lover and the loved enough to protect itself from users, liars, cheaters and thieves.

And I'd bet dollars to donuts that the sort of WW who doesn't have an issue dropping sexually explicit details like the size of her walking dildo's cock would go on for years and years (and years and years) about you commenting on some other chick's boobs. People with low self-esteem tend to know which weapons are the sharpest and cut the deepest...at least for themselves.

They don't make comments like that unless they're trying to wound. Same with letting it drop how much she misses him. Try out that line about an old girlfriend sometime and see how she reacts.

Don't confuse her blundering attacks with innocence. On some level, she knows exactly what she's doing -- and what she's doing is attempting to, once more, pay you back. This time, she's paying you back for catching her out and "making" her feel like such a shit for being a tramp.

You need to let that shit go in the same way you'd dismiss someone taunting you because your hair is the wrong shade of green. That wouldn't piss you off, of course, because you *know* your hair isn't green. The only reason this sort of blundering assault is effective is because it gets at statistically significant insecurities that most men share. She's shooting fish in a barrel.

How much did you really think about the size of your cock before D-day? I'm willing to wager (statistically, again) that it was plenty serviceable enough. Could be longer. Could be wider. But you've never had any complaints, right?

So don't let a liar and a whore undermine your confidence. She's got an agenda that's consumed with tearing you down and letting you know in explicit detail everything you've ever done (and are currently doing) wrong so that she can beat you down enough that you feel like the two of you are even.

You foil that shit by owning your life. Do things that feel good. Do things that please you, make you happy with yourself, build your confidence and let you dream new dreams about what your life can be and what it can look like.

You buttress your defenses and strengthen the walls of your self-confidence until they're unassailable...or at least unassailable to pussies hiding in the grass and throwing rocks at you because you're so far beyond them that they can only respond with jealousy.

When you're happy with your own shit, carping like what your wife is doing is just as laughable as some dickhead making fun of your green hair.

Your biggest problem is that you haven't yet accepted the reality that your wife is not the ally you've always believed her to be. She's a traitor. She's a double-agent. She's an enemy. You're still treating her like she's a reliable source of intel, when supporting your cause isn't her agenda.

Her agenda is looking out for herself and what she wants from you.

You work on your own healing and your own dreams. The great thing about distance is that it gives us a wider angle view of the world. It gives us a different perspective.

A wider perspective might show you that she's started doing some of the work she needs to do toward owning her shit and making herself safe.

Or it might show you that she's a piece of shit who is unworthy of your time, resources and attention.

Either result is a win.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I said back

I do love you *******. You don't annoy me. And I am attracted to you. I just have bad anxiety and stress right now

Her- why can't I help you?

Her- I'm your wife and your best friend. It's my job to help you.

Her- Everything will be okay tyler. This whole mess with liam is almost over. I'm working on dealing with my back pain so I can know my next step. Kairi is almost off formula, we but cheaper diapers. Mom will be leaving soon. It's hard now but we have each other. We are strong. Our love is strong. I love you Tyler, everything will be okay. I'm here for you and I can be stronger for you.

Her- I don't understand why you didn't call, but...if staying away from me is better , then dont talk to me the rest me the rest of the night.. I'm sorry I can't be what you need.

(the liam thing is our nephew that she is pushing me into addopting even though I made it very clear I wasn't ready to do this)


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The experience of a feeling is valid (I.e., we all feel what we feel), but that doesn't make the feeling itself valid.

Some feelings are inappropriate for their context, while others are rooted in flawed reasoning or misapplied history.

In other words, a feeling can be both subjectively valid and objectively wrong. That you feel it is valid. That doesn't stop you from being a dumbass.

That was what I was trying and failing to say, much better stated there.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7118 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
MC_Jack
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Default  Posted: 10:27 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Collector:

I am going to dissent slightly from WAL/oracle of this thread...

...displaying emotional rejection as an acknowledgement that someone has repeatedly acted in ways so heinous that they are no longer entitled to be in your "safe circle" of emotional support.

I agree like I said above that if you do not want what she wants at a particular time because of the betrayal that you should feel free to express it, but without an overt intention to hurt. The question I have is about the word 'repeatedly'. I don't know your story, but are the heinous acts prior to dday, or did they continue afterwards?

(I'm a firm believer that no one cheats until they've first convinced themselves that their spouse deserves it. ...they're paying their spouse back for some perceived slight or failure.)

^^^So true. It's a blackening of one's heart. Sometimes intentional to get what one 'wants'. So the big question that no one here ever wants to answer was there anything that merited bad feelings on her end that you need to address? --not saying that her response was justified in any way or that any lack of communication on her end was warranted, but you do have to look into the mirror. While she is getting rid of her dysfunctional qty. 10 50-gallon drums of jet fuel, you need to make sure you don't have any random matches laying around.

... an extended period of not being an unfeeling, clueless, needy, whiny, this-is-your-problem shithead.

Can the past 2 years be described by this?

*until* she has proven herself worthy of it again

What does this proof look like to you Collector? Did she show this previously, but is now regressing?

True love is not unconditional.

I think true love is unconditional. What is conditional is what one does with that love. You can still love your WW and have forgiven her even after a divorce. Loving someone does not mean you have to subject yourself to harm. If you love yourself, you will protect yourself.

Don't confuse her blundering attacks with innocence. On some level, she knows exactly what she's doing...

My sense from your story is that these attacks occurred just after d-day 2 years ago. Just after d-day, lots of crap is spewed. If she said those things last week, then it's a whole different ball of wax.

Do things that feel good. Do things that please you, make you happy with yourself, build your confidence and let you dream new dreams about what your life can be and what it can look like.

^^^ you should do this no matter what.

Your biggest problem is that you haven't yet accepted the reality that your wife is not the ally you've always believed her to be.

Well, she may not always have been. In a post above, it was stated that a given in life is that people are not always loving and loyal. People are complex. What is your read on her now as far as her making your needs important?

That She's a traitor. She's a double-agent. She's an enemy.

^^^ That's a little hyperbolic, huh?

Her agenda is looking out for herself and what she wants from you.

^^^This is what YOU have to figure out. We all project our stories onto yours. You are the lifeline for not only your WW, but her extended family. I posted above that she should go out and get a job and help in the financial support area. Her doing so would be very symbolic IMO. Plus, a quality woman will act to support the family financially if necessary.

Good luck,

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:34 PM, April 11th (Thursday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
TheCollector
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Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, April 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for your time and advice gents! ve git a decently long and good example text conversation that continued after my last post. I'll post it tomorrow since I'm on my way home now. I will talk to you guys tomorrow


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 63 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:19 AM, April 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

^^^ That's a little hyperbolic, huh?

Not at all.

We're not really disagreeing, though. We're just weighing the two years since D-day differently. You're weighing them positively (as in, since TC is still around two years later, there must be something good she's doing to rebuild the marriage), whereas I'm weighing them as a period of her continuing to inflict harm through minimization, lack of remorse, failure to show actions and otherwise rugsweeping.

The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, so I'm glad TC has both perspectives to draw from as he plots the course ahead.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
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