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User Topic: Spouses/Partners of Sex Addicts-10
lastin12
♀ Member
Member # 34709
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, November 21st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I forgot a little bit of the back story (the whole story is in my profile)Ö Iíve been married four years and I just found out a few months ago about his sex addiction. He is unsure of how many one night stands but thinks itís about 15 over the course of our marriage. All the times I suspected things, he made me feel like I was crazyÖ he pretty much lied until he answered a fake ad I posted on craigslist and I left immediately. Now obviously Iím back and feeling like I shouldnít beÖ Iím reading back all the text msgs he sent me while he was trying to get me back and itís just sad. He told me he was going to treat me like a princess and do anything and everything to make our marriage work... I feel like Iím alone again.

Posts: 95 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: New York
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, November 21st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gosh what a rough day for us all. So many hugs and prayers and thoughts for all you ladies. I hope we can all get through this holiday season with grace and strength.

Agh, QVee, you are completely right. I should not be trying to pace our healing together. It is a fruitless exercise and impossible, besides. He sent me a picture of him in his underwear and made a gross comment with it today. I don't even know. I thought he was on a reasonable track. Maybe some things just do not change.

I knew my husband was serious about recovery when he told me that "even if I don't stay together with you (QV), I will just carry this problem on to the next person and I'll never have a good relationship." And, when he said he did not want to have a relationship with his hand and the computer screen for the rest of his life. So far, his actions have backed up his words.

Gosh, I wish this was what I was looking at. And even if I was, I'm not sure I'd believe him, the way things have been going.
NandN-
"working on codependency" for SAWH doesn't count. Seeing a CSAT, going to a 12 step program counts. Too expensive - bullshit.

Thank you. I wasn't sure. Honestly, I end up questioning so much that I think. It's part of the crazymaking cycle. Another sign that I have many miles to go before I sleep.

Missy-

Had a test and did very well.

Yay!!! Hang on tight to that victory. Your semester is almost over, I hope you can enjoy and rest during the break
I am going to kick school up into high gear next semester. Put my life as a priority.

You go, girl! Way to take care of you

Lastin, good to hear from you. I was thinking about you recently and hoping that you were doing well. I'm sorry to hear that he is slipping into old ways. We are here for you and support you. Also, it's good that you are super aware of his actions. It's not all about words. Something I need to keep reminding myself of...

nightsky-
I'm sorry you're in a jam. It must hurt to be the only one doing work. Are you able to leave, if he won't get out?

Our first MC appointment isnít for another two weeks. He has an IC appointment next week. I know WH is lying and minimizing to his IC. I sent her a letter about six weeks ago telling her that he is lying to me, her and himself. I also required that he sign a waiver so I could contact her.

Sounds like his IC is just not getting it. Can't blame her if he is lying up the wazoo with her.
Do I contact her before his appointment next week and lay it all out to her? Do I wait until MC (all three are different people) and confront WH about SA again then? The only reason WH is in counseling at all is because I made it a requirement back in June. I know - I canít fix him and I am in IC myself.

Still sounds like you are trying to fix... Does he actually want to *get* better, or just "better enough" to hold onto you? Do you feel like you are pinning your hopes on the IC to fix your H? Do you think he has it in him to actually do the hard work for R?
I think I would like S at least, just to have some peace. I have been fighting so hard to ďsaveĒ our 33 year marriage, and now I am wondering why I am bothering.

Sorry, hon. We are here for you. ((nightsky))

SK-
You're right, I hope we can all have some peace tomorrow. I know we all desperately need it. And do what you need to do for you. It's ok if you need meds. I think we all need some kind of help to get us over those tough humps, be it IC, meds, etc.

Oh, Missy...

The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others, not so much.

too true.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
NothngElseMattrs
♀ Member
Member # 35917
Default  Posted: 7:47 PM, November 21st (Wednesday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin, you are not alone. We are here for you.
He told me he was going to treat me like a princess and do anything and everything to make our marriage work...

No one can fault you for wanting to believe his words. Now he is showing you his actions, and they do not match. Do whatever you can to take care of yourself, that can mean many things. Are you in IC? Hugs, hon. No one deserves this kind of pain.


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"

Posts: 496 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: The wind before the storm
lastin12
♀ Member
Member # 34709
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Help... not again!!

Over the last week, he was kind of cold and distant, but I thought it was work. Tuesday night he said he was starting to feel unhappy again. Yesterday, I found this in his email. Just wondering what you guys thought?!? It's sad I'm kind of numb, like seeing this didn't hurt that bad, which is very bad..

**email**

Heya, I received your message you sent to my craigslist ad Tuesday. I am certainly interested in getting together.

Maybe we could meet for dinner to findout if there's any chemistry, and then simply findout where it goes from there. As my post said, I am not searching for anything with commitments, just a good time without all the drama. I have got my pictures on http://bit.ly/OTiYAE along with my phone number. Call me sometime soon, hoping to get together sometime this week.

Tracy

There's no way this can be an ad right.. Don't even know why I'm making excuses. Craigslist was how he was finding his sexual partners in the past and how I caught him the last time. Thhinking I'm moving out again tonight.


Posts: 95 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: New York
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin - I answered you on the other thread. I am so, so, sorry. He is acting out again, cheating. Send a copy to his IC and your MC. Then, if you are wanting to leave still, do it. If you want to say, do that. Really, this is a major boundary violation. Are you reading anything? Having gone through a small slip recently, I am finding the book "Your Sexually Addicted Spouse" very helpful. They use a trauma model and it really describes the devastation going on.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
lastin12
♀ Member
Member # 34709
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Missymomma, What is the slip you're dealing with? I love him so much, but I don't want to live my life always looking over my shoulder wondering what's going to happen next. I treat him so well and would never do anything to hurt him and he's been cheating on me for years. I don't think I can take it anymore, I feel so damaged.

Posts: 95 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: New York
SabinatheOwl
♀ Member
Member # 30023
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TMY asked me to check in with everyone. I haven't been here in quite a while. A few months ago I started intensive trauma therapy. It has been difficult and incredibly draining. Additionally, I'm taking new meds which have helped give me space to think and to breathe. Honestly, I'm really struggling, and its a day by day slog. The flashbacks and other symptoms are tough to cope with even with support. I'm tightly focused on *my* healing and the work I need to do to heal myself, to grow healthy. To evolve. The toll has been high, and I'm tired of it all.

As far as SAWH, he's doing well. Understanding, able to speak and hear clearly. Accountable for his time and willing to be so- more than in the past. My med has given me enough space to see and hear both him and myself much more clearly. Communication between us is improving & I'm thankful for that. He has been going to therapy more often, which is positive. There are warning signs, and I monitor loosely but mostly I leave him alone. I've enough to mind on my own plate.

I wish all of you well in your journeys, both individually and as couples. I urge all of the spouses to join S-Anon and initiate therapy with a well qualified CSAT. It'll help immeasurably. Truly. Focus on yourselves and let go of everything else.

Wishing you all well~

SabinatheOwl


Details & story in profile

"Live a life not an apology." Edward R.Murrow

"I can be changed by what happens to me but I refuse to be reduced by it."

Maya Angelou


Posts: 1350 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: Metro DC
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

***(((Sabina)))***

And ***(((Ghost)))*** are you lurking out there. I think of you both very often.

Hugs to both of you.


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin - The slip we are dealing with is SAWH flirting with an ex-stripper. He denied it at first and was very defensive. The stonewalling and gas lighting for 2 days were just too much for me. I had a total meltdown. I've been reading Your Sexually Addicted Spouse to understand why this has been so devastating to me.

I agree with working on yourself but do not agree that you do not have to expect your SAWH to work on himself. I have the right to make my life safe. If he choses to behave a certain way, then he will just have to leave. I am not willing to live with an addict that isn't owning their sh@@! I told my WHSA that the most I am willing to do for now is to stay and watch what he does. He has finally given me the password to his linkedin and facebook. He is getting a new CSAT and is going to do more meetings every week than he was. After we get another car, he will do 90 meetings in 90 days. So I will sit back and watch how much he actually follows through on. Think I am going to do EMDR this week with my CSAT to help me deal with the trauma from all of this.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin,
Your story isn't dissimilar to mine, though mine is way further along.

Here's my big 2x4. Your husband is not going to stop cheating on you unless he gets a LOT of professional help. I'm sure everyone here has outlined the steps and the huge commitment of time and money involved. Even if he does get this help, he only has about a 5 percent chance of any sustained recovery, despite what one or two new posters here will tell you.

He's posting on CraigsList, which is so dangerous that it sets my teeth on edge. My STBX does the same. Sooner or later, one or both of these men is going to end up dead, or injured, or beaten and robbed. Someone will follow them home and hurt your or your family. Or they will steal his wallet and blackmail him. (My STBX was blackmailed.)

Just google CraigsList and attacks and you will be shocked. People are hurt all the time after answering CL ads.

I hope that you will leave him now and try to work on yourself in a safe place. YOU can't save him from himself and his issues. What he is doing is very dangerous. The odds are against him in every way: in terms of healing himself, in terms of continuing this dangerous behavior without something terrible happening to him - or to you.

Also, please carefully read the posts of people who stayed with their SAHs. The pain involved in staying with a SA is terrible. Many people did it because they had kids, or discovered too late. You have no kids and your entire life ahead of you. I am going to come right out and say it: You need to LEAVE this guy. If he gets better, you can reconcile. But if not, at least he won't destroy your life.


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lastin, please leave your husband. He's not just a cheater, he's a serial cheater, he's unremorseful, he's an addict who is actively acting out, he's a liar, and he's putting you in jeopardy. If you stay with him you are dooming yourself to a life in which you'll always be waiting for another DDay, always wondering what it would be like to have a normal life. If you have children you'll ALWAYS be afraid of what they will be exposed to and how much damage it will do to them.

You're not going to win any prize by staying in this doomed marriage.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 elementary school-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 8789 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
numbandnauseous
♀ Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((Sabina))))) - thanks for checking in. Glad to hear you are focusing on yourself. Wishing you much strength on your journey.


SK - when you said "drugs," did you mean medications or something else? I hope you are taking good care of yourself.

To all SA spouses: check out Solution's response to lastin's "Craig's List" thread in JFO.

Missy - please let us know how the EMDR goes for you. I am not very familiar with it and would love to hear more.

Choosing, I am wondering what you are basing the "5% chance of sustained recovery" on? From our CSAT, I have understood 93% chance of recovery, IF (and that is a VERY big IF):
-SA sees CSAT
-SA is completely honest
-SA attends 12 step group
-SA has hit rock bottom and is interested in recovery for HIMSELF, not someone else (i.e., spouse)
-SA is actively working his 12 step program, has a sponsor, etc.

I'm sure there are other things I am missing... I think that most SAs do not do most (or any) of these, hence the low recovery rate. IF they are actively working their program for themselves, then I think the recovery rate is high - how could it not be? If they are doing all of the above and they only have a 5% sustained recovery rate, then the program is a waste and should be abandoned or not even attempted in the first place.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to clarify. 5% vs. 93% is a huge difference and I think needs some discussion. I am a newbie and certainly don't have all the answers, just looking for the truth.

(((((((SA spouses))))))))

On a happy note, check out online Black Friday deals for various survelillance devices - just got some really good deals on stuff!


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
ChoosingHope
♀ Member
Member # 33606
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

N&N: I can't be bothered to read Solution's entire post. But it's a good thing for all SA spouses to read - if only to understand that in real life, SA is not always accepted as a disease or an addiction. Most people think it's a joke or an excuse. And that the spouses are somewhat pathetic. And that the behavior is revolting and scandalous and shameful.

It's just another level of pain in dealing with SA.

I am shocked that any CSAT would give you a 93 percent recovery rate. There was a huge debate here about this about a month ago, and I'm not interested in getting into it again. You can use google scholar to read more about statistics.

My husband and many others did EVERY single thing you listed above, plus some. It worked for a few years until the relapses started. And my husband had a lot of good things in his life to assist his recovery: an incredibly successful career, a supportive wife, loving children, many friends. Unfortunately he also had a very bad FOO.

I don't want to tell you that your husband will never go on to some sort of sustained recovery. But really, the odds are against him. Moreover, your future is marred, no matter what. You will always have to struggle in terms of trusting him. He can relapse at any time. You will have to monitor what you watch on tv, what literature you allow in your house, etc, etc. You will have to worry about him passing along addictive genes to your children. You will have to figure out if you will ever tell your children or not. You can wake up at any time immersed in a scandal thanks to his acting out.

Only you can figure out if it's worth it. Sadly, I don't think you can find one person here who can tell you unequivocally that it was worth it. Even those who stayed with their SAHs will tell you that is was VERY DIFFICULT and painful. It really bothers me that no one comes out and says this to the new people here. Even if your H manages to keep his shit together for a few years doesn't mean that you'll ever have a "normal" marriage again. You need to prepare for this.


Posts: 1433 | Registered: Oct 2011
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 9:22 PM, November 23rd (Friday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It really bothers me that no one comes out and says this to the new people here. Even if your H manages to keep his shit together for a few years doesn't mean that you'll ever have a "normal" marriage again. You need to prepare for this.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 elementary school-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 8789 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Only you can figure out if it's worth it. Sadly, I don't think you can find one person here who can tell you unequivocally that it was worth it. Even those who stayed with their SAHs will tell you that is was VERY DIFFICULT and painful. It really bothers me that no one comes out and says this to the new people here. Even if your H manages to keep his shit together for a few years doesn't mean that you'll ever have a "normal" marriage again. You need to prepare for this.

Gosh, I would hope that no one thinks that I sugar coat anything. I certainly am not very optimistic about recovery for Sex Addicts. And even though I am in R with a SA in a strong recovery, I definitely wish I would have left him years ago, before the bottom fell out, and he took us all with him. I have to live with the reality that my children have been permanently affected by growing up in a household with addiction. I hope that they will not end up addicts (of any sort) or co-dependent spouses of an addict. I cannot say for certain if they would have grown up in a healthier environment, because I did not understand SA, addiction, or even the affects of my own FOO, but I can say with 100% certainty that they would not have been as severely traumatized on d-day as they were.

I have never read a hard statistic myself, but I truly believe the number of SA's that can sustain a long term recovery to be much closer to the 5% mark. I think being overly optimistic about the chances of long term recovery of a SA is delusional.

That is why I stress personal recovery for the spouse so much. We need to learn to take care of ourselves. We need to learn to cope with things in healthy ways. We need to understand why we ended up with SA's and deal with our own issues. Otherwise, we are doomed to end up in other unhealthy relationships if we do leave our SA. I have had the financial ability for years to leave, but I did not have the emotional or psychological stability. I believe that in the last 3 years I have made gains in that area. I know that if my H relapses, I can and will leave.

I will come right out and say it, and I will sound like a hypocrite, and I know this: I think almost all spouses of SA should leave. There are very few situations that I have seen in S-Anon or here on SI that I think have any chance of success long term. It could even be true of my marriage. I am willing to accept that, and not rug sweep like I did for too many years.

I do not believe that most SA's hit their rock bottom until there are extreme consequences. For my H it was legal consequences that could have sent him to prison, although he would have chose suicide first. Even then, I think many SA's do not hit rock bottom. They are master manipulators and will say almost anything to protect their own image and status quo.

I really hate the fact that I seem so jaded, and it is unfortunate that it translates that way online. I actually have found a lot of joy and happiness in my life embarking on my own journey of recovery in the last 3 years. Yes, it has been hard facing some of my issues and going to counseling, but I can tell from the changes that have taken place in my life that it is worth it. I wish the same for all of you. Once you let go of trying to fix your SA or feeling like you have to be their support system, you can put that focus where it belongs, on you. YOU ARE WORTH IT! You don't have to be miserable for the rest of your life.

[This message edited by TooManyYears at 8:48 AM, November 24th (Saturday)]


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
TooManyYears
♀ Member
Member # 26108
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sabina,

Hugs, and thank you for checking in. I am sorry to hear that you are struggling, but glad that you are continuing to work on things. Sometimes it is really hard to push through the crap that we have to deal with. I am hoping that you will break out of the darkness.


Me- 40
H, rSA- 46
2 young adult children
Married 21 years
Last D-day 9/19/09 (Many before this)

Posts: 496 | Registered: Nov 2009
Missymomma
♀ Member
Member # 36988
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am not trying to argue, just trying to clarify. 5% vs. 93% is a huge difference and I think needs some discussion. I am a newbie and certainly don't have all the answers, just looking for the truth.

We had a long discussion about this earlier. 5% is the old data and 93% is what Carnes purports. Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. All that really matters to you is your WHSA and whether you can live with the situation you are in. Sometimes that is a day by day decision. Just make sure that you are the one making the choice, not your family, friends, therapist or WHSA. This is hard and isn't a linear progression.

Today just living my life for myself and my kids. Hope everyone has a decent day, maybe even good.


DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

Posts: 1084 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Texas
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 4:42 PM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aw, I've missed you guys! :hugs:

Just my 2cents. I'm one of those staying with their SA in recovery. In the beginning only stayed to get my ducks in a row - meaning, post-nup, secure custody of the kids, get my therapy, develop my Plan B, etc. I never really expected him to actually come through with recovery. It has been a very long and difficult road, and I am still not where I need to be. And as it has been said, there are no guarantees, ever.

I strongly believe if I did not have kids, I would have never stayed, would have left in a heartbeat. I had put myself in a situation that was difficult to extract from without many severe legal and financial consequences. If I were working, in my home state, etc I think I would have thrown him out in a heartbeat. I cannot imagine staying for any other reason. It just isn't worth it. Even with the best success, the trust will never 100% be there.

I have to agree with the others on this. If you can leave immediately, do. You can always reconcile after they have gotten into significant recovery for a long time.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1408 | Registered: Jun 2011
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 9:41 PM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ugh, that sounded harsh. I didn't mean to imply my sitch has changed, or bad things are going on NOW. I'm one of the "lucky" ones who get to go to my own CSAT, my own group therapy with other SA spouses, have a S-Anon home group to go to, and my SAWH does all this too. He is doing the work, going to his CSAT, doing 12 step 2x a week, going to start his group therapy (which does the Recovery Start kit among other things) in January since the fall group fell through. He's ready to sign the post nup, but I'm holding out until he takes the CSAT-mandated poly on Monday before *I* sign it. He has changed his whole lifestyle and attitude, and is present for me and the kids, and grateful for a second chance at life. And he knows the drill and will willingly leave should I need that to happen, it's all been planned out in advance. I honestly could not ask for a better scenario given the circumstances.

BUT, even so, it can all go POOF in an instant. I am better prepared and have the tools and the means and the support now if it does, but who chooses a life that has that risk?

And for others contemplating their future, who chooses a life with even more risk with someone who isn't doing all this?


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1408 | Registered: Jun 2011
hathnofury
♀ Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, November 24th (Saturday), 2012View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sabina, I am so glad you checked in and you are doing well given the circumstances. Hang in there.

Ghost, I hope that you are busy with things that will improve your life and not without electricity or something. I think of you often too.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1408 | Registered: Jun 2011
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