I agree with Kat; there are many red flags in your post. You will be able to see what he is doing with a keylogger. INSTALL IT AND DON'T TELL HIM - not now, not when you find what you need, not ever. This is the only way you will get the truth. Be prepared for what you may find - it may be very traumatizing for you.
With the KL, you may be able to relax a little and not follow him around (not that there's anything wrong with that in the situation that you're in - you're desperate to know the truth of your M and I've BTDT, believe me).
At first, I was also afraid of what my SAWH would do or say if I pushed him too hard about what he was doing, but then I realized (with the help of the wonderful people from SI) that it was all bullying tactics on his part to get me to back down. When I called his bluff on his bullying, he always backed down.
Have you seen a CSAT for yourself? Gone to a Sanon/COSA meeting? You will hear the wise women on this thread say over and over again, "take care of yourself, focus on yourself." You will need lots of support to get through this and it is never too early to start.
Other tips: get Deceived (book) by Claudia Black or any of the other great books mentioned on the first page of this thread.
Get the KL if you want to know what he is viewing. PM me if you have any questions.
Hugs to you and to all SA spouses....
We talked for a long time about how pornography is part of a huge, abusive sex industry and it is in no way victimless. That discussion hit home with him, thank goodness. However, my SAWH was already remorseful and getting help. I know other SAWH's don't necessarily respond the same way.
BTW, my SAWH looked at porn for many years but it didn't escalate to Ashley Madison, milffox, etc and then to affairs until he was 58.
Do take care of yourself. (((purple)))
I do have a key logger on and that is how I have watched his behavior over the last year and a half. That is how I know about the quick checks when I leave the room for a minute when we are both on the computer. That is how I see what he is checking out.
I will have to check some of those books, not sure about a meeting as I would need to tell him why and where I am going.
It has just really made me uneasy to see how often he went there and a bit of a relief to know how others see it. Now, I just have to figure out how to brooch the subject. What to say about why I am worried since there is no tracks left on the computer other than what the keylogger says. I want to keep that secret just in case.
Also, hi everyone. I know I've been gone for several months. Lots of new folks. I hope everyone is holding up well and is safe.
News for me is I moved, started over in a new town with a new job, and now he is moving here too. First time living together in a long, long time and it's scary.
I wondered if your SA sent you flowers, was doing stuff for you, etc. anytime before disclosure or after?
I can tell you that I got a declaration of his eternal devotion and a lovely 3 diamond ring just before (I think) his last EA went PA...
purple - sorry I missed the fact that you already have a KL. Never, ever tell him that you have it installed.
If you can, go to sexhelp.com, find a CSAT (Certified Sex Addiction Therapist) in your area, and make an appointment for yourself. One of the best things I ever did - very validating. After I had my appt with the CSAT, I told my SAWH that he would make an appt with the CSAT to be evaluated for SA or I would D him. I told him it is not healthy for the kids and I to live with an addict who is not in recovery. I gave him a deadline of two weeks and he made the appt within 2 days.
We went to several appts wherein SAWH lied, minimized, and denied. Finally, SAWH said he wasn't a sex addict, that sex addiction was a myth, and he wouldn't go to any more appts with the CSAT. (This, even though the CSAT and I both think that WH is an SA). And here we are now.
The way your WH is acting, it would be my best guess that he will not admit to his SA, will minimize, lie, deny, etc. So you can decide if that is the life that you want to live (if he decides not to get help). You can also decide that this (SA, affairs) is a dealbreaker for you at any time.
As far as going to a CSAT or a SAnon/COSA meeting, you don't have to tell him where you are going. Or, you could go to a meeting while he is at work. The way he is acting, he will probably be happy to have you out of the house so he can look at porn. I cannot tell you how soothing it is to be able to share with others who know what you are going through - those who won't bat an eye when you say "S&M" or "sex slave," "porn" or "prostitute." It is such a healing experience and I always feel better after my group meetings. Delve into those spouse SA books so you are focusing on yourself.
Be gentle with yourself, this is so traumatic. Journal, go for a walk, pray, get a massage/mani/pedi, hot cup of tea or glass of wine, whatever makes you feel pampered.
Hope everyone else is doing well; will post more when I am able.
I don't want flowers anymore (I never told him that) but since DDAY, he has not sent or brought home flowers for me since. I think it was his way of appeasing his guilt while he was acting out. I'm sure Pro Flowers misses him!
Through his CSAT and men's group, he does sent me cards (both eCards and in the mail) and sends me nice texts periodically. I'm just happy to be done with is sexts!! They drove me crazy -- and not in a good way
[This message edited by sodeeplysaddened at 10:59 AM, April 30th (Tuesday)]
married 16 years, 2 kids: 11 DD, 13 DS
In process of R
I feel like I'm going to throw up.
I almost got sucked back in. SAWH was telling me how he missed me, how he hated to see me look so sad, blah blah blah.
So, I didn't take the condo my friend offered. Plus after the car purchase (YAY I have wheels!) we are both short a little.
Well, I tried again to open a dialogue about his SA and his getting into a program. *shakes head* I am so fucking clueless. He won't admit he is an addict. Which, leaves me with a bi-sexual creepy fucker. I don't want to be married to that either.
So, on he went. I am the problem. I never do anything he wants to do. I spend too much time on my phone (I work on my phone all the time). I don't want to exercise and be on the go every single minute of every single day. Blah, blah, blah. It's all me. He is Saint Mark.
I told him I was leaving at the end of May. He actually had the gall to ask if I could stay 2 months!!! Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me? No.
I spent a sleepless night and now here I am. I wish to God I had taken the condo, but the truth is it would have tapped me out.
I know I keep lathering, but I just want so badly for him to be the man I remember. I read other people doing this and ! want to hug them and tell them to let go. And yet, here I am.
It ends when I say it ends. Thanks for hanging in here with me. I think I finally get that he isn't going to seek help. I am watching him slowly turn into a monster. The longer he goes without treatment, the more he behaves like Pigfucker and I am not going back there!
Please keep pushing me. I need it.
Sending you all peace and mojo.
I'm sure some of you saw the post about maybe having a positive forum for those trying to reconcile with SAs. That this thread here can get very negative and seems to tell everyone to run as fast as you can from your SA spouse. And I am sure at times that is true. I know when I went to S-Anon meetings it often felt that way. Because honestly, when you go to a place for support, you likely have some bad news to share and process. When you are doing well and have your life together, you are less likely to seek support because you don't need it as much. Thus those with only positive things to say are less represented.
Similarly, I sometimes can't bear to look at JFO any more. At the time I joined SI, people who had spouses/partners that were unfaithful to the extreme (many anonymous partners, hookers, etc) were few and far between on JFO/General. It was mostly people who discovered LTAs, or just found out about one incident of infidelity and had no idea what else there was and honestly couldn't get past what little they already found.
Now it seems every day I peruse JFO, there is a new person who discovers evidence of infidelity, posts it as a newbie seeking support, and within days if not hours are given all the tools to find enormous piles of evidence that their spouse is a raging SA - when they may have not even heard of SA before. I cannot imagine processing all that info at once. It's super triggery and exhausting for me just reading secondhand, and I am 23 months out. I imagine sometimes it must be like that here on this thread for some people. Honestly in JFO, General, and Reconciliation there are a lot of "negative" posts. I don't think it is exclusive here. But I also don't think it is a bad thing in and of itself.
Here's the thing. We have been dealt a shit hand, and we have to take every precaution to minimize the negative effects this will have on our lives. With or without R, with or without D, with or without limbo. Sometimes that means facing things that are not pleasant. Sometimes it means gentle 2x4s for issues we cannot see or understand at that moment. It may seem painful and negative, but the end result is actually positive as we fumble through our journey with the insight we get here.
I think we all agree no one should stay with an addict that refuses recovery. It is simply not safe, and we want to provide all the info to help that person be safe. I think we also all agree that even in the best case scenario, both you and your SAWH are in recovery and making progress in your M, there are still many challenges and often we may need reminding what we need to do to stay healthy.
So there are going to be some suggestions that are not all sunshine and roses, but they will have a positive impact if they are considered carefully as they apply to your particular situation. Don't get lost in the tone, or what advice is given to people in circumstances different than yours. Instead look at it as it applies to you, use what you can, and leave the rest. There are too many variables to have the ultimate universal answer to this. The key is learning what variables and circumstances actually matter with the issues at hand in that moment.
Love ya, sisters. And any brothers that are afraid to post, I know we are an intimidating force of estrogen sometimes.
Hath - Very well written. My experience at COSA was nothing like the experience you describe in S-Anon. Perhaps it is because we are in different situations or just different groups. IRL, I have had a lot of positive support, as has my SAWH. We are in a big metropolitan area, there are quite a few CSATs and support groups. There is a very large recovering community. RCA is another tool that has been very beneficial. I think what happens here is that those married to (or divorcing) extremely abusive (or NPD) SAs tend to see things one way and those married to SAs in recovery see things another way. My CSAT kept encouraging me to both push for what I needed and give it time to come to fruition. I get many PMs from people wanting to work on their relationships and looking for concrete advice. Thankfully my COSA family and CSAT are full of concrete advice but many others coming here don't have that. Seeing people with a strong recovery and strong marriage has been extremely beneficial. There is one woman in my group that has been 18 years in recovery, and her husband has been 15 years in the program. They still attend to give back. What shocks me when I hear it are many, many women that were in recovery for a couple of years before their SA decided to join them. I don't think I could have done that.
Its terrible, because I still love the man I married. I am working with my IC about why, after all he's done, I don't hate him.
My family also says, at least I know his history. I could get another serial cheater, SA or whatever. Arghh!!!
My family also says, at least I know his history. I could get another serial cheater, SA or whatever. Arghh!!!
Now that I've copied this to quote it I can't remember who posted it on page 37. I'm sorry, my mind is really foggy right now.
This is exactly how I feel. I posted a couple of times back on page 35 and at the time wondered if my H was an SA. He moved out 3 weeks ago today to work on himself...
I just found out working on himself once again means having an affair. The one thing I never thought he would do is risk his job, but that's exactly what he's doing. He's having an affair with one of his officers. He's a Lieutenant.
And for the life of me I still can't figure out why I love this man and can't seem to hate him or go file for divorce.
I spoke to the woman's husband the night I found out and out of anger said some mean (but true) things about my husband. Her husband told her and she then told my husband so he sent me nasty texts on Saturday morning berating me for sinking so low, etc.
This long text came about an hour after he had just texted me good morning.
After the horrible text, I sent him one reminding him exactly why I was angry and that I had every right to be. Nothing I did compared to what he's done to our family.
He then sent me a text saying to have a safe trip. (we were driving 3 hours to a tournament). he then texted me the rest of the day normal texts about the tournament. He texted me all day sunday and even asked me if I wanted him to start a load of laundry for me when he dropped our son off since I would be getting home late.
He was still here when I got home and since I'm still angry about his text attack and the new affair and that he's risking our financial well being I didn't say hi to him when I walked by him.
I'm sure that he also noticed that I had removed the only picture I had left up of us and I stopped wearing my wedding rings. So when he left he started in on me again about how I had sunk so low, I let him know where he stands with me, I should have tried to help him stop what he was doing, etc. Then told me he was done with me, and he is never coming back to our marriage or home.
Now he hasn't contacted me since Sunday night and it's freaking me out. I know I should't care but I feel like I'm going through withdrawal from him. And what if he really is done.
No one can around me can really understand why I would still love this man. How can still want to be married to him. I don't even know myself...
I have met with a CSAT and we met with our now former marital therapist. And this is what is driving me batty. They both have a pressure and bias (subtle in the case of the CSAT) toward me staying in the marriage when I express my ambivalence and that I am certainly exploring divorce as an option. But then when I solicit information on recovery or they ask questions about our relationship then I feel like they are hyper-scrutinizing me for co-dependency.
I have no claim to psychological nirvana but in my case I am not co-dependent. I have made it 100% clear to everyone that my husband has to sink or swim on his own with this one and only once he has his addiction under control can we even start to think about whether we can rebuild our marriage. I am an accomplished woman with my own career, life, and friends and I absolutely can see an OK and in fact peaceful life for myself on my own with my kids. But despite the pressure I am feeling, I know that I am in no state to make a huge decision or any promises to my husband either way about our marriage. I need time to get my clear head back and also I need more information, all of that is going to require at least six months.
Anyway, vent over, here is the question. Are any of the support groups for spouses geared around the trauma model and away from the co-dependency model? Frankly, I have survived an incredible amount of personal loss in the past year and I am still rallying (albeit in much pain). If anyone, therapist or support group, tries to treat me with less than the respect that I deserve as the survivor of a personal apocalypse, I am going to react very strongly and very negatively to that.
Suggestions for groups that might be appropriate to my situation please?
I am fortunate that in my COSA group, it is accepted that not everyone married to an SA is co-dependent. It is becoming a more prevalent theory. We are the kind of "rogue" group of COSAs, totally love those ladies and gents. Unfortunately, we only meet once a week. I go to another meeting but don't really gel with that group as much. It is trial and error.