My WW is the enemy during a divorce. We are not friends we are people on the opposite sides of a conflict and the outcome will have a significant impact on the rest of my life. We can go back to being friends once the documents are signed.
Your WW chose to not be married to you any longer so start the process and go see a lawyer asap. What she makes and what you make are irrelevant. She can go out and get a full time job and support herself if need be. In theory she doesn't get to leave the work force and stay at home living off alimony forever. She was supposed to make that choice while you were married not after she has an A and decides she wants out. Well if she wants out she has to put her big girl pants on and learn to support herself. Don't agree to anything upfront without talking it through with a lawyer first and protect yourself and your assets. Also don't assume you will get the short end of the stick with custody and don't leave the house now. Depending on your state it could be seen as abandonment. Again talk to a lawyer before doing anything big like that.
If she wants space she had the A she can leave and move out. Depending on your state and the laws you may have to sell the house to split any equity you have in it anyway.
Any discussions you and she have are just discussions until it's in writing. It will help if you can agree on some things up front but don't put yourself in a bind when legally you didn't have too. Write out a list of questions you have and then take them to a L. Most of them will do a free 30 minute or so consultation where you can ask questions about your specific situation and the laws in your state.
Your WW may be all nice now but who knows how she will react once she sees what her standard of living will or won't be after the D and who knows what her lawyer will tell her.
My STBXWW and I were able to talk out most of the big things like custody, debt, the house, etc. and I am hoping it will be official when she signs the separation agreement tomorrow. Go see a lawyer and get the process started. I am sorry it has come to this for you but please protect yourself now that you have made the decision.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 3:05 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]
In my state infidelity can be grounds for divorce.
In other states you may not be able use infidelity as your grounds for divorce but it may have an impact on how the judge rules in terms of child support/custody/and alimony etc.
See an attorney ASAP so that you are aware of your rights.
Like the others said...you can always change your mind later if the divorce is amicable etc. and pay more money for child support etc. but it's probably best at the beginning to just go along with what your attorney recommends.
Advice from a divorced one:
RUN! to a shark lawyer to get your head around what you can expect in your state. Like others, I was surprised at what I could and could not expect. Daffy and I had a very calm, collaborative D but we each retained our own lawyers to make sure neither of us got screwed.
Since my lawyer was more experienced (and expensive) than his, I believe I got the better deal, but that's neither here nor there...
What you've discussed so far is, as you call it, fantasy. Until you've written stuff down and signed your names, it means zippadeedoodah.
PM if you want D advice. You might also wander down to Divorce/Separation for advice and commiserating.
Thanks for the advice. I will start the research on the divorce laws in the great state of Texas.
I also appreciate the advice about staying in our home and having W find another place to live. I can continue to enjoy my children daily.
Long ago (20 years or so) W and I had a fight and D was suggested. My attitude then (and now) is that whatever I lose financially, I will make up in some way. It can be easy to accumulate wealth if that is your goal.
So, LTA has shown me things I never would have imagined about life. And it continues to do so.
My W has been so unhappy and determined to end the M. And our discussion last night was no different. When we were finishing our conversation, she asked if I wanted her to sleep in the guest room and I said no, as long as I am here I am going to take the opportunity to hold you. She laughs andwe have sex. Good sex, Enjoyable for her and I. Okay, parting ways. Then today, I sent her an email noting that we also need to discuss what we each want in our relationship as ex spouses. Unhappiness, happiness, or indifference. I desired happiness as she was someone I desired as a friend when we first met. She replied that it was a nice note. So, I get home and am greeted by a hugh and a kiss. Totally unexpected and not the way I would behave going down the divorce path.
My dog is enjoying the frequent walks.
M3.. I am no longer angry; just hurt and the intensity varies a lot. I used to push my kids around the house on the good ole lego bus
hi nell.... ....
isn't your post just that Luke Bryan county song, "Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye"?
All we do right is make love
And we both know now that ain't enough
Ain't gonna beg you to stay
God I ask you what's wrong
Ain't no reason running after something already gone
Take off your leaving dress
Let's do what we do best
I guess everybody's got their way of moving on
Girl rest your head one more time in my bed
Love me like you loved me when you loved me
And you didn't have to try
Let's lay down tonight
And kiss tomorrow goodbye...
I am glad you are going to get some more legal advice. I also really liked tryn's suggestions. Be nice, polite, but don't make it easy. Make her move out, and have her do the work.
Maybe the sex now is just ketchup for the shit sandwich.
You have taken such a remarkable high road through all this. I really admire you.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:06 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]
When we were finishing our conversation, she asked if I wanted her to sleep in the guest room and I said no, as long as I am here I am going to take the opportunity to hold you. She laughs and we have sex. Good sex, Enjoyable for her and I.
The most attractive man is a man who is willing to let his wife go.
Good sex, Enjoyable for her and I.... Changes nothing.
It was just the two of you releasing all the tension that's been pent up for months and years.
If you have been quality, the attractive man, like the many post I made, you have stood up for yourself. You set the rules, 100% or there is no reason for me to love you. Make it so.
carry on the affair for so long without me having any knowledge of it.
LTA thought processes?
I think like the others here too who responded to your post.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:19 PM, March 5th (Tuesday)]
TrustGone: I'm so sorry you have to go another DDay. Like H&C, it may be helpful for you to consult a lawyer so you can see what's ahead and what can be done about the health insurance. Usually there is something called COBRA (forgot what the acronym is for) but it's about health insurance that can be extended for up to one year past. Also, with my xWH#1, we were legally separated and since he was paying "family" insurance for the kids anyway, it didn't cost him more or less if I was on it or not. I stayed on it as long as we were legally married. Talk to your lawyer to find out your options.
As to getting over a LTA? I don't think you ever really get over it. Does one really get over a big trauma like death, or 9/11? We can come to terms with it, or get to a point of acceptance that it happened and we have to go on. I think it can still always hurt to some degree, but not in the devastating way.
We have to heal whether or not we R and it will take years. It took me over 5 years or more to heal from my xWH#1 A and it was a short term exit affair.
M3: You are doing fine. You just had a baby and are trying just to survive. But you also know that you need to give some time to yourself, even if it's to take a 15 minute shower where your H watches the kids. I like that he is bringing you coffee in the morning
MCJack: Those lyrics made me cry. Wow.
I can't repair a marriage with a rugsweeping cake eater.
I'm definitely in the camp of posters who have some concerns about the direction of this thread, but since I'm not a regular poster, I don't really feel I get a voice in that. I do want to say, though, that people who don't like the direction, please, please post MORE not less. There are a variety of points of view out there, and it's critical that people struggling with LTAs get to hear them all, and get different kinds of support. Don't feel driven away, just feel free to offer a different perspective.
I saw a question a few pages back that I wanted to respond to--no idea who asked it or how many answered--about whether BS's who stayed and R'd after an LTA ever got over the anger. I definitely have. It takes a long, long time, some pretty serious defining of what you want and expect, and a WS who is willing to put in the work day after day after day, but it really can be done. I thought I had a good marriage before d-day, but I can honestly say that it's never been better than it is right now and the anger is just somehow gone. I thought for a long time it never would be, but it is.
If my W see a beautiful man on the street and he might think.. wow, I would love to know what it’s like to have a man like that pursue me. (Notice I did not say.. SEX. Men think that way, women don’t.) It is m W’s inner thoughts. Please, someone tell me why sharing that inner could be good for the M?
Ok, I want to respond. First of all, I think that kind of generalizing is or can be dangerous to people trying to R, as I think it's reductive and dehumanizing. Everyone is more complicated than that. In fact, I'd say that growing up in a FOO that adhered strictly to generalities about what men do/think and what women do/think contributed greatly to my H's *choice* to have an affair, his brother's three divorces, and his other brother's substance abuse. People are complicated individuals. We all have traits that are gender normative and some that aren't, so it's not tremendously helpful to reduce people to generalities.
Second, I don't know if sharing that inner thought in that situation would be helpful or not. I don't ask my H what he's thinking if we pass an attractive woman on the street, but I also don't assume I know based on his gender. Truthfully, I might not even really notice the situation. But if I had to take a stab at it--and I'm *not* saying you don't know your W, Tryin, just being hypothetical here--I'd say that knowing your W's inner thoughts might help you know/understand her as an individual/complicated person instead of as a package of pre-assumed traits. Maybe your wife would be thinking, that guy looks like a dick, he's walking like he thinks he's on the runway at men's fashion week, or, wow, that's a jolt, he reminds me so much of my uncle who used to play hide and seek with us, but who died before I met Tryin, or, thank goodness Tryin doesn't do that stupidass Euro suede loafers with no socks and his pants rolled up like that guy... I mean, she could be thinking any number of things that might surprise you.
Edited for general grammar cleanup.
[This message edited by brooke4 at 3:32 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]
its simple....you don't have to share the details...a simple..."hon, i am triggering a bit today, can you please just give me an extra hug" or "hon, i am having some flashbacks can you plz just hold my hand for a bit".....
there is no need to share all of what you triggering about unless she wants to know, but with your wife i don't recommend sharing all of it, i don't think from what you have posted about her that she can handle it......but i think she can handle just knowing that you are not completely OVER IT.....i thinks its important that she understand fully that you are not completely over it...its important because she needs to understand the depth of what she has caused with her choices....
and again it need not be full of details tryn...just that you are triggering and then tell her what you need from her to help those triggers......
and to me and i could be alone here...i would think that when you are truly in a a solid marriage or relationship you should be able to share everything....its when you don't feel comfy sharing that you could end up on some slippery slope somewhere because you are unable to turn to each other in time of need....which to me is pretty basic.....
ok gotta go to work now....
Totally unexpected and not the way I would behave going down the divorce path.
H&C, I think that until your W is served, and the "fantasy" of D becomes realized in ink and paper, that you are not really on the divorce path. To me, this is just another movement in the dance you and your wife have participated in over the last years since dday.
At different times, I told my W we should D and then quickly changed my mind followed by short periods of giddy optimism.
So maybe the hug and kiss do not equate to giddy optimism, but I see the same dynamic. Until you get your D boots on and begin to slog through the mud of who gets what, who pays what, what the kids and family are told, it is just the same dance for your wife and she is trying to re-establish her lead.
I was shocked at the callous and hard nosed attitudes of attorneys I worked with when I have prepared to file. There was nothing pleasant about the path, and the reality helped to focus my views of the future. Not focused for better or worse as a choice, but I certainly saw the reality better.
I had to be separated from my W to file. I could not live with her, and interact with her reguarly and politely while holding my cards close about a D and plotting how to best take care of me and my DSs.
I could envision polite and even friendly after the D, but until I got through the process I saw routine interaction as too uncomfortable.
My point all along is that if you look at yourself, control yourself, understand good values, say and do things that bring good thoughts to others, you take the bad without defense, you understand there is a cause and effect in everything, focus only on the cause, learn to be a person who can completely fill every need of your man or woman, communicate effectively and accept the things you have no control….
The end results will be happiness.
A key part of forgiving is to not make the offender feel guilty.
This is a choice by the BS. Either you make it or don’t make it. It is a process too.
hon, i am triggering a bit today, can you please just give me an extra hug
But what about me? Me? Me? I am the victim.
Your values, your own strength and courage, your ability to control your emotions, your ability to pay attention to the moment, your ability to accept change, your ability to be.. Personally responsible for yourself will protect you and bring you happiness.
You can control what others feel or think. You can control YOU. If I remind my wife of her failures in life, she may or may not be strong enough to “take it”. And even if she did “take it” as part of her penance in the beginning of MY grief, and their grief, there will come a time should you continue that reminder, they will have “enough” and dis-qualify themselves as your spouse.
Since we have no clue what other think unless they share it we cannot possibly know what they think.
Forgiving is a process. Once you make the choice to no longer make your spouse feel guilty, I can assure you that you will sometimes not have the power, and strength to control what comes out of your mouth. If you don’t first make that choice, you will never be able to control what comes out of your mouth. Even more, you will never be able to control your need to track, trust, or behave in a way that frees you! A weak person will stay married to you if you don’t forgive. A strong person will disqualify you and move to happiness.
Should you make the choice to forgive, after a few blunders, a few uncontrolled moments, You can then realize this falls on me. When that happens enough times, you will then gain the strength to control yourself.
No, I will never make my wife feel guilty. When I do, her thoughts will naturally take her to bad feelings. I am not going to be disqualified because I choose to R. If I make her feel guilty, that is on me. I then deserve to be disqualified. The fault is laid at the feet of me.
If my W is not loving me, I must realize that. You approach it not by making her feel guilty, that will only bring bad feelings. You approach it in a far better way where she will be attractive to you. You be quality. You eliminate a portion of what is the cause when you just focus on yourself.
Some people think they are quality. They have that Identity, I am quality. That belief protects us and ends our grief. And it may be the best of our ability at that moment in time. If I choose to have a mentor with bad values, then I become a man with bad values. I don’t choose my FOO, that is life. Our FOO teaches us values. We then think our values are quality when in fact they are not exactly those that make for the most healthy for a M.
I made that long list about who I am now becoming. I left a few things off. It would offend a woman. It was not taught to me by my parents. It was taught to me by a man who has spent years studying behaviors of men and those behaviors that attracts a woman to submit to you on her own, not by force or manipulation. There are things on that list that I am sure some thought, wow, that is not easy to do or even possible. I may not want to be that diligent. They are hard to do day in and day out. It is a choice I made and I force those behaviors and found that in time with repetition, I then just do it naturally. I cannot change that quick. It must be the new me with time. If cannot do those things, then I lay in the bed I made.
It is most complex.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:29 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]
The ultimatum is.. you make the choice to love me and give it 100%. If she can see finally wake to see that love is always a choice the good feelings always follow with the love she chooses to give or not give, then great. If she cannot see this, then this is something you cannot control. I stop all love I once gave you and I will find happiness in being single or I will find me a quality woman who makes the choice to give me 100%. Protect yourself brother.
I wish you strenght.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:30 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]
It didn't bother me until I had to reschedule my appointment with the lawyer for a 2nd time. So now I get to wait another week before we can attempt to sign the property settlement agreement. Take it easy all!
This is about Reconciliation. NOT the first year in trauma, not while in shock, denial phase of the grief.
Or as I might phrase it, not in the recovery phase. I believe that this is an important distinction. Here on SI, I find that R is often used as simply meaning, "not actively divorcing", where I see two Rs, recovery and reconciliation.
For me, the reconciliation R was not possible until WS and I had progressed through the recovery R. The recovery R phase took well over a year and included:
WS expressed her desire to remain M’d and do the work this requires
WS recovered from her significant re-writing of the M based on her miss-perceptions
WS is close to forgiving herself, no longer experiences toxic shame from the A, and is prepared to actively participate as a co-equal in the M relationship
WS owned the issues that lead to her As (poor boundaries, personality traits, FOO issues) and incorporated new behaviors and techniques to replace the old unhealthy ones
I reached acceptance, and was well on the way to healed including effectively managing triggers and mind movies on my own for the most part
I had identified and addressed personal issues (kisa, nice guy syndrome) that resulted in tolerance of A behaviors and perpetuated the dysfunctional M and incorporated new behaviors and techniques to replace the old unhealthy ones
I differentiated between wants and needs in my M relationship
I came to believe that I could survive and even thrive without the FWS if necessary.
I was again prepared to accept WS as a co-equal in the M relationship
WS and I both understood the concepts of boundaries, slippery slopes, intimacy, external affirmation, infatuation versus love, and love languages
WS and I both appreciated our values as individuals, not just as the other spouse’s spouse
WS and I were able to identify a new common future for us as a family
We are now, over 3 year out, working on the reconciliation R. We are learning to be more honest and authentic with each other, to be more tolerant of each other, to define our common front we display to friends and family.
Members of the LTA Tribe are at all places in our journeys. In the main SI boards, it is clearly separated into JFO, R, General, or D&S. Here there is blurring with all different needs and timings coming together.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:05 AM, March 6th (Wednesday)]
In my situation, I think I was a quality person for my wife - did I reach the level Tryn has pushed himself to? absolutely not, but I am not that far behind to start with. My WW had a choice remember, she could have just as easily choose OM1 to marry instead. I was much more of a quality man than he was even though he did some things I did not. He was a looser and my WW knew it, he was never marriage material no matter how much she thought she loved him. During the LTA OM1 eventually got married himself to someone that would allow him to just stay at home and not work. None of that was enough to stop the A though.
I am an excellent provider for my family. I work hard but I am careful not to take my work home. I make sure I come home everyday by the time I should - if I need to stay late for a specific project deadline, I clear it in advance. I am a great dad to my kids - I am very involved in their lives and work hard to help them become a good person and live a happy life. I talk to my wife, I listen, I try to take care of her needs. I do my half of the chores at home - my cooking has come a long way from my college days of boiling noodles and throwing sauce on them - my kids think I am the better cook and my wifes cooking is pretty good as well.
I think where I fall short though is too many of my ways are subtle - I am the type of person that brushes the snow off my wife's car in the morning rather than randomly bringing her flowers. She may drive to work without ever stopping to think why her car didnt have any snow on it when she left. I also have a very competitive spirit - I try hard to win and make things into a competition when probably they arent. I do it as nicely as I can but that is often what drives me and it is difficult to dial back. I was quality before but I can always do better if I can find the drive to want it.
You pointed out that I should not give up the time with my kids and that is great advice. The finances would be much simplier and less antagonistic: I stay in our home with the kids and provide for their support. W moves out on her onw, supports herselft entirely, and contributes (hopefully) something financially to the kids.
ATS.. I hear you loud and clear. Until she moves out, she tells her family she is divorcing, etc. she drifts. She did not initiate any discussion last night on D, post D, etc.
Tryin.. I get it. The past is the past and do not do things that shame her. When we said D two days ago, I did make the comment that 1) I cannot understand how you do not respect me for not clearing the yard on my own initiative (for a kids gathering) and 2) you respected OM who was cheating on his own wife. Followed by, I hope you find someone much better than OM after we D. Was this out of line?
MC_Jack.. yes maybe it was ketchup.
So, my question to the tribe is do I just tell her to move now since she wants to D or do I let things drift for a few weeks? She takes DD on a college look trip next week.
Buying flowers, giving hugs, or sending notes were not a big deal to FWW. Maintaining the car and mowing the grass are huge. Who Knew?
I am the type of person that brushes the snow off my wife's car in the morning rather than randomly bringing her flowers. She may drive to work without ever stopping to think why her car didnt have any snow on it when she left.
You need to speak up, make it known. I have not cleared windshields for a loooong time , but I do other things. FWW's love language is acts of service. I would wash windows, clean cobwebs from ceilings, etc and expect her to notice. Telling "Hey, look what I did" felt like bragging. The thing is she did not notice, and she wants me to let her know.
I had this same problem at work where I would be quietly competent and expect my supervisors to notice. Now I find ways to have people recognize my value.
I still struggle with the giving complements. Words of affirmation is her other love language, and it is so not me. But, I recognize that FWW is not the only one who appreciates compliments, so giving sincere compliments is a skill worth developing.
...with regards to becoming a quality person.
It takes two. Yes, I am a better H now than I was before dday. Some of this was just me recognizing faults and fixing them. A big part is I have an engaged W now. She provides feedback so I know when I am on the right path. She tells me what her needs and wants are. I get rewarded for good behavior. You cannot develop into a quality man in a M without an active and quality partner to work with.