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User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 31
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryn,

FWW absolutely laid the reasons for her As at my feet. She and I talked about this, and she explained it in MC sessions. She gave examples, she had a whole list. She said that her forgiving me for ruining the M was equal to me forgiving her for years of A with multiple OM.

The thing is, it was her misperceptions and selfishness that caused her A, not my lack of attractiveness. She blamed me for her unhappiness, her own internal guilt led her to ascribe negative connotations to my behaviors, she only saw things in black or white and so she hated me for not always, always being white. The thing is, there was nothing that I could have done, because I was not the problem. When she said I was not attentive and loving enough, she would later say I was too needy and smothering. When she said I did not like her friends or children and that is why I was uninvolved, she would later say I tried to control her through her friends and children, or that I presenting a false front so that they would like me better. When money was tight, she complained how unfair it was others had more. When I studied to get better paying jobs with more flexibility, took on outside consulting for extra funds, she accused me of ignoring her. The examples go on and on, and FWW now recognizes her misperceptions.

She lays the A at your feet. So? She should change and stop blaming other for her own issues. That was your W, not you. She needs to stop blaming others and focus on herself and we should stop blaming others and focus on ourselves is my point.

When we look at ourselves.. was I the best listener? Was I really good and thinking everything though? Was I really who I should have been to be the most attractive person? Did you really know how to conflict in the best way? Did you really compromise like needed? What is it about me to pick the spouse I picked?

I realize we try to be the best we can at attractiveness. That is all we can do. As Nell corrected me. We do the best we can.

Ats.. I am going to be a little tough on you so get ready.. nothing against you brother.. see it as a challenge. So if you were that attractive, where did you learn it? Can you make a list?


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
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Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am sorry should I have triggered anyone.. I will stop becasue I have said enough.

Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I came back to post what is below about being an attractive partner, I realized I was cross posting with Tryn, so let me answer his question first.

So if you were that attractive, where did you learn it? Can you make a list?

Yes, I can.

I watched my parents cooperate and support each other through a long M together. Sometimes my Dad was supporting my Mom, other times the reverse, but they worked together and so far as I saw were honest with their feelings.

I read books and websites on M problems and how to be a good H. I tried the "do more chores around the house" technique because that is what most of the books and articles said was the problem. I sent little notes, bought special gifts, supported her in her interests, and accepted that I did not communicate well because this is what the books and MCs said. The one book we needed to read was the 5 Love Languages.

I also went from being an optimist to a pessimist during my relationship with FWW. From a life of nothing can go seriously wrong, I began to feel I could do nothing right. She wore down my confidence. At her demand, I had isolated myself from friends and activities outside of the M.

I actually started to get myself back about the time her first (?) A started. With my M not working, I started to do volunteer work. I expanded my professional skills. When I thought she was having and A (she was) and was over-come with anxiety, I went to IC who did great work. I invited her to attend with me, but she did not need it. I was the “broken” one.

I started my work on me prior to dday, and this is what I continued to work on while she was in IC and reading books, and working on her self.

I will stop becasue I have said enough.

I do not disagree with much of what you post for a couple that is actively working on R. I just think it has to wait until the BS gets past the pain and is progressing towards acceptance and healing. I think it also first requires some true demonstration of remorse and new behavior from the WS.

---

As for being an attractive partner for my W, at 3+ years after dday I am capable of being a much more attractive man (and H) than I was capable of after dday. In the early days after dday, not hitting my WW, not killing myself, and not driving too drunk too often was about as attractive a H as I was capable of being.

I posted a lot about watching for progress from FWW and complained that she was often a day late and a dollar short on her effort, but she was making progress. For years, she has worked to recreate her self. There was backsliding, and I gave up and walked away a couple of times.

Today we are able to work on R together. We are both working on being more attractive, more authentic people. This is only possible because it was preceded by FWW tolerating my needs in healing and working on her A-related flaws.

The other night I became frustrated working with our taxes, bills, FSFSA forms, and I snapped at FWW. When I later apologized, she said she understood and that she did not take it personally, that she appreciates all that I do. This is what makes R possible. In the past when she would have seen my frustration as another example that I hated her, that our M would never work, R was not a possibility.

FWW has struggled with employment in the recent economic environment. We have had to prioritize money and do without things. I do not resent her lack of income or deny her money for occasional splurges or pleasures; we are facing this struggle together. This is what makes R possible.

The other week she took a risk and told me how she wanted to be hugged, held, and kissed. This is after years of telling me she did not like being touched. She has told me what she like sexually (not what I would have guessed) without being afraid of my reaction. This is what makes R possible.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3963 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and further more...

I think the things Tyrn posts are very appropriate and useful for a couple in R, and being in R requires authenticity and honest communications. I believe this is missing in many couples in the first months and even years after dday.

So if you were that attractive,…

It is not as though I walked into the M nearly perfect and knowing how to meet FWW’s needs. Rather, I was open to learning and trainable whereas FWW was not.

When we went to MC (3 different MC over the years) we would quit going when the focus shifted from me to her. When we argued she would get in my face until I withdrew emotionally over-whelmed. When I read about this and MC said that this was a common problem in communication for men, I worked to stand my ground and not retreat. When I did that FWW started to say it was useless arguing and to retreat and quit talking.

I told FWW and sent her notes on what I needed in the M and what I wanted from her. She was afraid to appear needy so she always said she was fine, did not need anything. I made an effort to find gifts related to her interests and hobbies. She gave me a gift card or bought something I mentioned shopping the week before. When she expressed that my quietness was a sign I hated her and did not like talking to her because she thought that I thought she was dumb, I talked with her and shared articles on my Myers-Briggs rating (INTJ) and introvert behavior. I also practiced being chatty.

I could not be attractive for FWW until she was able to be authentic and honestly tell me her needs. I was not able to be attractive to FWW so long as she was miss-perceiving my behaviors based on her internal dialogue.

Going into the M I was not great, but I was teachable and willing to learn. It was not possible for me to learn to be a good H from FWW until she could understand and express her feelings, and she was not able to do this until she learned how. We were not able to R until we were able to communicate, and we could not communicate after dday until she and I had both progressed in healing and healing, for both of us, was an individual journey.

I believe that FWW always wanted to be an attractive W for me. She just lacked the ability to express what she needed, and in fact rarely knew herself.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:06 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3963 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A need of every woman...

Make It Safe For Her

A woman needs to feel safe with her man in order to give and submit herself to him.

Humm.. Did she feel safe?

She just lacked the ability to express what she needed, and in fact rarely knew herself.

my theropist says this is the #1 issue for most all woman.

Did you ever say...

"You shouldn’t feel that way"

"That is a dumb way to feel"

"you overreact to things"

"Why do you have to make mountains out of molehills?"

Is there a way to make a woman feel so safe she really opens up to you?

Who teachs men this stuff? our parents? Not mine.

Just because people are married for 50 years does not mean they were happy. 1/3 marriage are happy. Imagine that.

Woman.. So simple huh?

[This message edited by trynhard at 9:40 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
ReunitePangea
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Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just because people are married for 50 years does not mean they were happy. 1/3 marriage are happy. Imagine that.

A happy marriage doesn't guarantee that you will be immune from these LTA's. I know I felt my WW and I had a very happy M and she says the same thing. There is nothing that I did to start her LTA because it began from day 1 that we met. Could I maybe have stopped it if I wasnt so blindly trusting, absolutely but thats not really the point is it. I really think that these LTAs are far less about anything the BS did or did not do and far more to do with the WS.

As BSs can we become better people, absouletly, that will likely improve the happiness of our WS as they can recognize us becoming better people. Us becoming better people may even help prevent a future A from happening but thats not what I want - I want my WS to improve what is wrong with her so it doesn't happen again, me being better is just the icing on her new cake.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 398 | Registered: Nov 2012
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats: You and Mrs. Ats have had a long journey together. TOGETHER is the key. I am so happy to see that you both are in true R right now and working on a new marriage.

Tryn: Thank you for sharing your history. I agree with you that we have to work on ourselves to be the best we can be.

It can be good to look at the marriage and see what the BS might have contributed to the failure of the marriage, BUT, and this is a big BUT (no pun intended), I don't agree that the if BS did xyz differently that it may have prevented the A in most cases.

Could I have been a better wife? Were there things I could have done better? Of course. The problem was that WH blamed EVERYTHING on me. There are two people in a marriage.

So many of us on SI will agree when looking back on our M, that we may not have been happy. BUT we did not CHOOSE to have an affair, the most devastating thing to be done to a marriage and hurtful thing to be done to a spouse.

I agree with Tryn that post DDay that the BS has to try to heal and one of the best ways is to make oneself the best they can be. This is the true 180 and it can be a very difficult thing to do early on.

Just from my perspective, recovering from an LTA is a long hard process that both parties have to work together. First the BS has to start to heal from the devastation and to feel safe that R is actually possible. After this stage is the long hard process of trying to create a new marriage and to help heal each other and all the problems. The latter is hard enough without the added LTA.

{{{{{Laura}}}} Let us know how you are doing.

I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts and the newbies. You are all in my thoughts and prayers.

I'm in a low place and very depressed. I have compromised myself hoping to be able to live with something, but WH keeps changing the rules and upping the ante.

<sigh>


Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did you ever say...

ever, yes. oftn, no.

One of my mistakes was making her the "adult" in our M. She was older, had a social work degree and work experience, had been through therapy, had kids, had been M before. I presumed she knew better than me.
It was not until later when I had people older than me working for me that I realized there was more to life then age and experience.

Is there a way to make a woman feel so safe she really opens up to you?

No

But one can be open to discussion, drop defensive attitudes, learn to defuse. Much of what I read to learn better communication in my M also (more so?) applies in my professinal life. The book Crucial Conversations was better than many of the couples help books. I use the skills I learned in it when contractors and project managers go off on me after I shut-down a project or complicate their work.

So, you can not make it safe for her, but you can be safe. Honestly, I think this is true for women too. It is risky for a man to open up with an honest feeling. I remember the first time I said something expressing hurt and a need. FWW made a joke of it. I did not try again for 10 years.

ETA:

Could I maybe have stopped it if I wasnt so blindly trusting,...

stopped it no, caught it sooner maybe. But then she may never have M'd you in the first place if you were a supicious control freak.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 10:06 AM, March 1st (Friday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3963 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ReunitePangea
♂ Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stopped it no, caught it sooner maybe. But then she may never have M'd you in the first place if you were a supicious control freak.

I agree fully, if I was suspicious control freak she would have ran away knowing her cake eating days were done.

It works the other way though, if I would have known 6 months, a year into dating, even our first couple years of our M what was going on I would have been done. Kids change everything. When I read first time posts on SI on people that are just dating and not even married yet dealing with a cheater already I just want to say run away as fast as you can. I think that is cause that is what I would have said to myself if I knew then what I know now.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 398 | Registered: Nov 2012
old dipstick
♂ Member
Member # 25598
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Njgal made a some very good points on the last page of the part 30 LTA house. If you have not read this check it out.

ATS.

Grasshopper, I did notice your comment about the age and experience stuff. You thought you could slip that by me? I had a good comeback but I got distracted and forgot what I was going to say.

I learned to be a quality person from both my parents. My dad was a old school WW2 army vet. He was a women and children first type of guy. When I was around 12 I sort of got promoted to the man category. It became my job to learn be the man, especially when my dad was not around. My mom and older sister were to be respected and watched after. I never questioned my dad. That is just the way it was. I carried these actions into my M. I did my best to respect her and take care of her. I never had to ask if things were o.k. She was always vocal if something did not please her. Like ATs's W, mine did have many mispreceptions. She interpreted things in her own way. I did not know I was dealing with BPD so it was pretty confusing.

To a BPD, feelings are facts. Most BPDs are also pretty paranoid. Being paranoid means that one is always scaning their enviroment to see who or what is out to slight them. If I was tired from working 60 days in a row and did not feel like doing something, she would take it personal. She felt that I was not wanting to be with her and to her feelings = facts, so no matter what reason I gave it was all over ruled by her feelings. This is just one example of what I was up against.

The OM said things to her that she liked. That was one of her answers to the why have the A question. Because some people know how to say the right things! The thing is they did not say anything I was not saying. They were just new and different and made her feel good.

Is anyone still awake? I just do not know how I can shoulder any blame for her As. Another of her answers to the why question was that she was sick and crazy. Quite a admission from someone who is a perfectionest and as best I can tell pretty accurate.

I do not know how to A proof a M. I suppose if you stay with your spouse 24/7 you can keep the A from happening. Of all the answers to the why question I have seen here on SI, these two stick out to me.
#1. Because they could. #2. Because they wanted to. I just do not see much BS blame in those two reasons.

I know every case is different but I just do not see why a BS should take the blame for the A. I have to go with what ATS said. There was nothing I could have done as I was not the problem.

I admit that I am not perfect. In fact I can be a little bit crazy. It is 33 and spitting snow but I am getting ready to go put some ribs on the grill. Why? Because I want to and because I can!

Dip.


Her WW 60
Me BH 60
M 36 yr
D-day#1 fall of 76 OM#1 2NS
D-day#2 summer of 89 OM#2 LTA 8 yrs OM#3 Short Term A


Posts: 751 | Registered: Sep 2009
RSEB
♀ Member
Member # 34728
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone,

I am SO sorry that you are all in turmoil over the responsibility of the BS.

Let's see what I can try and contribute from the other side of the equation. I hope I don't offend/hurt anyone, especially since my BH and I are horrible again. My feelings are SO hurt, I don't know how to get past the hurt when BOTH of us are hurting SO bad and it's getting harder and harder to see past it. My BH is SO much tougher and can be SO much meaner then me. He was always able to cut like a knife with the drop of a hat, and he still does. He then tries to smooth it over later, but my question is when is he going to learn to self correct BEFORE he starts the insults and horrible language.

And Laura28 I hope you come back, you are one of the veteran's whose input as the BW I look for. I hope you can bring yourself to continue posting.

Now as far as my BH being "responsible" for my LTA, absolutely not. I came into our M not having the correct tools to communicate my needs properly. I also avoided all conflict and wasn't honest with my BH with how much his words and lack of attention hurt me. He is a workaholic, he cannot sit down. Did I take that personally? Yes, if felt like he didn't want to spend time with me. We are not the "getting a babysitter" types. Now we got M'd and were pregnant ONE month later. We were doing MAJOR construction on our home from the week that we had our DD. My BH was working, coming home and doing ALL the work on the house. This went on for TWO YEARS. I felt as if I was a single mother. Was he working hard for our family? Yes, but did I feel neglected? Yes. Did I feel resentful that he wasn't taking on any of the parenting role? YES YES and YES. I was so angry. I wanted our first child experience to be COMPLETELY different. When I would say something, my BH would be tired and cranky and get loud about my complaints. His answer was that the "parenting" thing was my job since he was doing the construction. I did not know how to communicate effectively that I did not agree with that. What should I have said. My role was SHM, I felt I didn't have an argument. Then when our DD was 2 she went to my sisters house in another state for a long weekend. I set up two wonderful date nights. One to see a broadway show and the next night was a wonderful dinner cruise. My BH did not understand why we had to do that. He had SO much work he could get done. That hurt me tremendously. My problem is the fact that he doesn't know NOT to say things like that. Doesn't he know he is being hurtful when he says things like that? Not to mention when we argue and he curses or sometimes starts name calling.

Was I rare and ripe for the picking for an A? I think I was. Should I have addressed the problems or left the M? 110% yes.

I agree that a BS has to heal first BEFORE M issues should be addressed, but when my BH still does not speak to me with consideration, when he told me last night that to quote "I don't give a F@#K" when I have told him now since D Day that I don't want to be talked to that way and he continues to do it, many times I think he does it intentionally because he knows how much it upsets me. Yes he is hurting, I know. But I told him too today that I have tried EVERY single day in the past three years to make him feel safe, to try and help him heal, but that I am not a monster or a robot that doesn't have feelings and that after all this time of me trying to show him affection, to be a quality woman, to try and make him feel safe, that he continues his behavior and he HURTS ME, he hurts me with that blank look of distance when I try to shower him with hugs and affection and trying not to disagree with him in front of our children even when everything inside me is SCREAMING that I should because he is not behaving properly and I try to make him see how I am trying, but he hasn't budged and has no intention. I cry when I read the stories on this forum of the BH's who are wanting and wishing their FWW's would wake up. These FWW's don't get it and these wonderful BH's are still working on themselves. Not my BH, no he didn't do anything wrong. HOW CAN HE SAY THAT???

If he would have given me all the affection I "think" I needed. I believe I STILL would have strayed at some point with MY PARTICULAR MOM. He was too close, inside my safe circle with our history. I have never been, nor will I ever be a promiscuous woman. I felt safe and loved by MOM. Did I feel that with my BH? No, but even if I did I am certain that at some point there would have been an instance, even if they were far and few between that I would have felt unloved and I would have given in to MOM. Horrible boundries, low self esteem and horrible communication in my M, conflict avoidance. The perfect storm for an A.

I have worked on myself. I have strengthened my inner self. I will not betray myself again. It is an everyday process, but I avoid turning away from my M at ALL costs, which is why this is EXTREMELY hard for me, because I hope to make my M work, but it takes two, and I don't know if I have my BH as my partner anymore.


ME - FWS


Posts: 259 | Registered: Feb 2012
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe this is a difference between men and women... I don't know.

But tryn, when you talk about men meeting all of their women's needs, women needing to feel safe to submit to men... it turns me off in a big way. As a woman, that is NOT NOT NOT what I want. I want a partner who is willing to work on his sh!t to be a strong helpmate, friend and lover. I'm not a princess and God help the man who tries to stick that tiara on my head.

I made changes because I wanted to be a person of quality and a woman who showed love. Not to get Daffy to be happy enough to keep his dick in his Underoos, but to feel good about me.

And honestly the changes I made were tiny. Minor blips. I was quality when he started his A. He was happy when he started his A, according to him. He wanted to have some little pathetic nothing telling him he was something he knew he wasn't, and the ego-stroking and pseudo-rebelling against authority (me) felt so good that he did it anyway. He's a weak jackass.

Daffy wouldn't be transparent. He lied constantly. He hid things from me. He refused to make amends for what he had done to me and our family. Hell, he refused to admit a lot of what he had done! He is not quality, to borrow the expression. He's not worthy of me and wouldn't take the steps to become worthy of me. I gave him two years after DDay#2 to step up and he was shocked SHOCKED when I said I wanted a D. He didn't fight me on it, though.

I will say this for Daffy: He's a great guy to be divorced from. He pays his support mostly on time, he takes the boys when he's supposed to, and he doesn't stalk me.

I've completely lost my point here but I've exhausted myself rehashing all this, so ya'll can take from my rambling what you will.

Nell


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
ImNellNow
♀ Member
Member # 28753
Default  Posted: 12:39 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSEB,
Making amends for your A does not mean giving the rest of your life over to unhappiness and abuse.

Nell


BS & D
Drinking wine and thinking bliss is on the other side of this.

Posts: 2370 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Baby steps on my new path
Nomorethankyou
♀ Member
Member # 37591
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello all. Ok this is why I am spending time on this forum. In my marriage there had to have been some dynamic at play that allowed this to unfold. I ignored my own doubts, feelings of dissatisfaction. I tried to address with what was ultimately a limited tool set. Don't get me wrong. I COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED THIS TRAIN CRASH. There were enough red flags along the way. Yes, he could do it and he wanted to do it. End of story. How he justified it is absurd and though he gets close to understanding, he seems to then get side railed or i got too impatient and progress faded. For what i required (beyond fidelity:) was for him lay down all the crap he has guarded himself with and begin living differently. And as we all know, he's got to want the same thing and not just to reconcile but because he wants to be a man of quality.

But me, why was I aiming low, expecting little, unable to communicate in healthy manners. That is on me. And I can't get to the next level till I figure some of this out.

One of the greatest gifts (yep I said that) of this whole horrible experience has been learning to submit (a word with significant weight and tough connotations) to not my husband but the universe. The rescuer in me is desperate for my husband to embrace the same but in saying that you see, I have not completely learned to submit! Submission does not cancel responsibility or reason or talents. For me, it says, this is what is required of me to be a quality :) person. and that is a very personal and intentional list. And I must recognize that I can not control reactions and growth and change beyond my self But I am required to work towards -- doing no harm, intellectual and spiritual growth and strive to be good company.

And so sometimes I go to separation and divorce forum where logistics and boundary drawing are high priorities and some times I hang out in new beginnings, where mending is happening and funny stories are emerging. And sometimes I go to general which tends to be a lot of questioning about how to make it work. But those JFO, general, wayward forums seem young and fragile and there is nothing good about what has happened. And there is no reason big enough to justify the hurt. But lately, I find myself here because. The LTA waywards have pretty extreme gifts of compartmentalization and conflict avoidance and passive aggressive tendencies (forgive the generalizations, I project). Do we, as a tribe, possess some common threads?



Me BW, 48
Him WH, 48
5 children. Girl (17), Boys (15,14,12,9)
Married 20 years, LTA 3.5-4 years
DD1 3/19/11
DD2. 10/02/11
DD3. 7/03/12 separated that night.
OW. Ugly girl.

There are no shortcuts.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: North Carolina
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dip: I'm glad to hear that you are grilling again.

To a BPD, feelings are facts. Most BPDs are also pretty paranoid. Being paranoid means that one is always scaning their enviroment to see who or what is out to slight them

OMG Yes!! So simply put and so profound, Dip! I wish I had read this 40 years ago!

Nell: Good to see you. I hope you are doing well. Thank God, you XWH is not driving you too crazy.

RSEB: Thank you for sharing with us. At three years post DDay, your BH is still hurting, BUT, you need to tell him quietly, but firmly that you understand that he is still hurting and you are trying to help him, BUT it does not allow him to mistreat you. If he wants to talk and says he's venting, that's one thing, but he is not allowed to call you names or say deliberately hurtful things. I know that some feelings that are shared, may be hurtful, but there is a difference between that and attacking to hurt.

What RSEB has shared and what is said over and over on SI is this:

Both BS and WS share marital problems about 50/50,(in most cases) but the decision to have an affair is 100% the WS's choice.

Nomore: I think a lot of BS's of LTA's share a lot in common. In a shorte A, the BS may notice a lot of clues and different behavior, but with the LTA, the behavior has been different for sooooo long, for years in fact, that it becomes "normal". All the gaslighting, blameshifting, etc gets carried on after DDay because that had been the MO of the WS for so long.

Rebuilding a M after the A is like so many people in my area trying to rebuild after the hurricane. Everything has to be gone through, and rebuilt and in the meantime, regular life needs to go on and you have to live in temporary housing. But you have to do it together or else it won't work.

I wish I had a remorseful WS who wants to rebuild the marriage. All I got is "this is how it is, take it or leave it". I tried to, I tried to compromise, but WH won't compromise.....

I've come to the conclusion that it is possible that WH loves me somewhat, but it isn't enough....


Posts: 1897 | Registered: Jan 2010
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Of all the answers to the why question I have seen here on SI, these two stick out to me.
#1. Because they could. #2. Because they wanted to. I just do not see much BS blame in those two reasons.

Absolutely, perfectly stated Dip!!!I would add too because many have come into their M with serious issues that never were resolved and carried these into the M. Whether it is BPD, FOO issues, prior sexual abuse issues, a conflict avoidance issue, Aspergers syndrome, etc., these present challenges that unless addressed before entering into a marital relationship ultimately rear their damaged heads and cause heartwrenching destruction. And we as unknowing or naive S's become the victims of their dysfunction. And at the core of any of the above is the problem of unhealthy boundaries.

I would venture to say that each one of us here has had opportunites to enter into an A. We may have felt strong attractions to someone, had someone aggressively pursue us, felt our needs weren't being met, felt unloved, or felt unsupported during a time of personal crisis, all of the bullshit reasons we have heard from our FWS' yet our healthy boundaries kept us from crossing that line.

Personally I could list a zillion justifications for having an A on my FWS if that was my mentality. I had my fair share of opportunities too. During his A years, he was the worst kind of partner - even to the point of repeatedly suggesting that I have an A. Yes, he would tell me that he would be ok with it if I had an A and would not divorce me. I remember being so hurt and confused. Strangely enough, during that time there was someone who was aggressively pursuing me and because I was so hurt and angry I seriously considered taking up my H's suggestion. Afterall, I HAD HIS PERMISSION! So why not??? I'll tell you why not - I made a vow before God and family and friends to be true to my H and crossing that boundary was not an option for me.

So maybe the question should be, what makes it possible for one person to cross a boundary and enter into a LTA betraying their S's and their children for years while others with the same amount of opportunity and complaints in the M turn their backs on the temptation to do so? Self respect I would think is a huge factor but also a strong need to maintain your own sense of integrity and commitment to family.

For any of the newbies here, please don't buy into the idea that you were in any way responsible for your S' LTA. THIS IS TOTALLY UNTRUE! No marriage is perfect. No partner is perfect. What keeps someone from crossing the line and betraying the very ones they made a commitment to honor, love and obey is a strong sense of values, love of family, commitment to one's own value system and a healthy dose of self esteem and belief in one's own value.

I think we really need to remind ourselves that S's who spend YEARS living duplicitous lives, lying overtly or by omission year after year, day after day, in words and in deeds and are still able to face us after each individual betrayal and not break down and beg for forgiveness screams out at least IMHO that they are not healthy individuals but in fact people who are in need of a great deal of therapy and support to overcome whatever it is or has been that has made it possible to take this path to destruction and heartbreak for everyone they supposedly love and are responsible to.

Let me join the others here who have said so well, NJGAL - whose post is a must to read, Dip, ATS, Nell, and others that before any R is possible after a LTA, it is absolutely essential that the FWS acknowledges their failures and makes a true commitment to work on whatever unfortunate issues may have contributed to their being able to hurt us so deeply.

RSEB I truly hope and pray that nothing I have said here has hurt or offended you. You have shown yourself to be completely willing to accept the responsibility for your LTA and have shown so much remorse and suffered so much pain. I am in awe of your commitment to your M and truly hope your H will soon open up his heart to you.

NJGal - thank you for getting those of us who refuse to "blame the victims" of our S's LTA's to come out of hiding . To Laura - please don't go away - this is a safe place and we care about you and your healing.

Before I close I want to say that if I were asked to describe in one word what I would associate the term LTA with it would be OBSCENE! What was done to us was obscene - the extent of betrayal, the number of lies that we were told over the years, the amount of disrespect we were shown, the loss of love, companionship and yes, sexual gratification that we experienced during our S's years of betrayal was obscene. It was cruel and hateful and selfish and loveless. To experience anger after learning about a LTA is not only a normal and justified reaction to our grief but a healthy and necessary stage in our recovery. We will never reach the acceptance stage of recovery unless we vent and unleash our personal pain and rage. My IC/MC was a true support in the importance of unleashing the justifiable anger that was a direct result of my H's 8 year betrayal. He used the analogy of a wound that would fester and become infected and deadly unless I was given the freedom and encouragement to release my anger. I am eternally grateful for his support in this. He set boundaries of course (and yes I did fail at times ) but he frequently told my H to "man up" and listen to the pain and anger that I frequently spewed in those early months and years. When my H would get frustrated and wonder how long it would take me to get beyond this stage our MC would remind him that it has been "8 fucking years" (his words!) and that was a lot of pain and betrayal to come to terms with.

The anger doesn't last forever but again, it is a necessary and essential stage on the path to recovery. Suppressing it or allowing others to encourage you to "get over it" will only prolong your suffering and delay your ultimate healing.

Hugs to the tribe!

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 6:25 PM, March 1st (Friday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm in a low place and very depressed. I have compromised myself hoping to be able to live with something, but WH keeps changing the rules and upping the ante.

Oh Honest - what's happened now? Please let us know how we can be there for you and please keep posting.
Sending so many hugs.
((((((((((Honest)))))))))


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m just picking out a couple of bits here:

It also worries me because whenever I read stories on SI of couples that were too quick to sweep the details of the infidelity under the rug....the less likely they were to have a true Reconciliation and a lasting reconciliation.
I am convinced that this attitude by BH and MOW is directly connected to MOW’s obsession with Mr UKg, the stalking on LinkedIn and the obvious desire to constantly remind him of her existence. The result is that we cannot put it behind us either – she seems determined to always be there, looking in through the window.

MC_Jack
The BS has no “right” to the phone records MC_Jack has. I think I would ask the BS what information they would like, consider it, send whatever I was prepared to send that didn’t compromise ME and with that say “farewell” and have no further contact. But it really is your call and while you can take your WW’s opinion into account, I don’t think she should dictate the terms to the point where if you do this it is a “dealbreaker” on the marriage. I agree that this is to do with her guilt and nothing else.

[Gotta

I have been up and down on being a quality wife. I try really hard to be positive but I know he's lying so it's hard to lie right back by being decent when I want to rip his head off.
Gotta, this is not right. You should be a quality person for you first and foremost. If you are your own quality person, you will be a quality wife. And if that’s not good enough, well tough. Be positive for yourself and not for him. If he lies, so what? You know he lies. You can’t change him, he has to change himself.


I have to agree with njgal’s posts. And it is a very raw place to be in those first months and (for me) couple of years. Beating myself up and looking for what was wrong in me when the answer was - nothing!! No one is perfect, but there was nothing Mr UKg could point to as a failing in me. The worst he came up with was I was spending all my time and emotional energy on DS#3 who was 13 and trouble on a stick. He was using that as justification for his LTA, to bugger off and leave me to it! We never stopped having sex, we never stopped having time together, we often went away on holiday and left the boys behind with grandparents, I never stopped being there for him and, know what I think? I was too good for him! Next to me, he felt like a POS because he was fucking his ex-gf while I remained a paragon of virtue, patient as the day was long, looking after home, house, boys, family, dogs, doing the diy, sorting holidays, making sure the bills were paid, getting the car serviced, booking WH’s dental/doctor appts, paying WH’s credit card, packing WH’s away bag, cutting his hair, giving him full body massages…... I believed him and I believed in him and he chose to trash and throw out something that he realised too late was priceless. He will never get back the person I was or the things I used to do for him and for us simply because I loved him. I never made demands, I never put him down in public, I have never been materialistic, I have never stopped him doing sport. If he could find a proper fault or point to areas we don’t agree or a lack of love, affection, sex, attention – then fine. But he couldn’t. And I don’t know if that makes me feel better or worse!

#1. Because they could. #2. Because they wanted to. I just do not see much BS blame in those two reasons.
I fall into this camp of belief. fWH had the perfect AP and the perfect set up to conduct his affair.

The affair with MOW was going to happen at some stage. He was actively looking for her for two years before he found her. She still had feelings for him and thought it was destiny or some such crap. Nothing I said or did was going to prevent it. If I had found out early on, WH would have left. As a LTA, it did its time and burned out.

RSEB,

I have worked on myself. I have strengthened my inner self. I will not betray myself again. It is an everyday process, but I avoid turning away from my M at ALL costs, which is why this is EXTREMELY hard for me, because I hope to make my M work, but it takes two, and I don't know if I have my BH as my partner anymore.
So what does your BH want from you to make things right? If there is nothing you can do or day to make a difference to him, is it worth the effort? If all he is going to do is put you down and berate you after three years when you have done all you can and he still cannot forgive or at least accept, then I wonder if he isn’t the one with the problems.

Hi FNF!

I would venture to say that each one of us here has had opportunites to enter into an A.
While I was down south last month, I got followed out of the library and chatted up as I walked back to town. I told him I didn’t live there and he said he hoped to see me again. That was that. The second time I had gone out to walk the seafront. I was gazing out at the horrible wind turbines off shore when a guy walked up from the prom with his greyhound. We chatted about the turbines and the changing skyline and this and that and then he asked if I would join him for coffee in town later on. I said I was staying with my friend and going home tomorrow. He said that was a shame and perhaps he would catch me next time I was down. And the thing is, I have only seen these “opportunities” since d-day. I’m 55, not 25 and yet men still want to talk to me. It’s a nice feeling. Perhaps it’s because I don’t wear a ring…?

I saw my parents in a good marriage. They were totally devoted to each other and each other’s rock in times of need. A true equal partnership. Just before my Dad died, he said “it wasn’t supposed to be like this” He wanted to wake up one morning and find my Mum had peacefully died in her sleep, then he could lie back and do the same. And fWH’s affair made me doubt my father’s integrity and faithfulness – I will never forgive him for that.

Phew! Too much thinking for so late in the evening! FWH is at a rugby match, so I have been catching up.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 5:45 PM, March 1st (Friday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Laura – Don’t be silent. Everyone is different and yet the same. We all deal with this LTA crap in the way we can best handle it. I have periods of clearing off and then drifting back to see how everyone is doing. I know I haven’t packed up the LTA and stashed it away and I know it’s mostly because a)MOW won’t go away, b)fWH doesn’t understand lying by omission IS lying, c)that I still haven’t got the truth either, d)I simply do not trust and so do not feel safe in this marriage. I’m here until DS finishes school this summer – then all bets are off.

Okay, things in the UKgirl house. (Clears throat ready for confession)

I have stirred the shit again because I am so sick and tired of MOW infiltrating our space. I’m sick and tired of Mr UKg being such a coward and hoping every fucking time that she will “just get bored and go away”. HELLOOOO? This is six and a half years and if she ain’t gone now, she doesn’t plan to go. Ever. So, after fWH finally sending her the message “stay off my LinkedIn page. Stay away from my life” to which she replied “ditto” (wtf? never mind) she sent a text accusing him of visiting HER page. This woman has NO profile at all, no CV, no contacts, nothing. Blank. Just her name and United Kingdom. Anyway, it was me (oops!) when I was with Friend Who Lives On The Coast and I logged in from the library to see if she had replied and hit the wrong bit.

She sent a text to fWH about viewing her "profile" (What profile???)

I sent a long letter (one and a half pages) to BH outlining her stalking activities since last summer and attached ten screen shots. And saying it was me not fWH who went on her page.

Yesterday, I travelled 50miles down to a large town near her and sent it special delivery for today. Except no one was in to take it!! Guess they might go to the office (a few miles away in town) and collect it. If they don’t, I will go down and get it myself mid-week and post it through their door. A round trip of about 170 miles.

The thing is, I am just assuming they are still married. He NEVER answers the phone and I didn’t see his car when I went past on my way to the coast, nor on the way back. MOW has her rings on in the latest FB photo and there was one posted of them holding hands and smiling at their DD’s wedding last year.

fWH is now saying we should take an extended break to NZ after DS has finished school. Maybe take him too if he doesn’t want to go to uni – he can get a work visa. He has arranged for a letting agent to view our house on Monday. I wonder if fWH realises I am ready to pull the plug as soon as DS has done his last exam and he is trying to do something extravagant with DS1&2 being the bait in NZ. Dunno. Rambling and not sure about anything right now. This crap should have been wrapped up by now and we should have moved on.

Night Tribe. Midnight in the UK, so herbal tea and bed.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 6:08 PM, March 1st (Friday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
jemimapd
♀ Member
Member # 37895
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, March 1st (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Like Laura, I am very disturbed by some of what I read on this thread.

What I do know is that one person's experience and opinion does not constitute a universal truth.

I think we have a very great responsibility to not misrepresent our opinions as facts.

The best advice on SI in my experience is that which simply tells the poster's story: what happened to them, how they respnded and how they feel about it.

We are not, in most cases, therapists or social science researchers and we cannot extrapolate rules of conduct from our own particular circumstances. When we do advise a course of action, for example the 180, that takes the form of collective wisdom.


Jemima Puddleduck is a trusting soul....
DD 1 Dec 2012; Divorced 11/13; 2 children
Me: BS (47) Him: WH (52) Her: 3 PA's
Ex bought a house, The Money Pit With Mold That Will Never Be Finished. He's living in the basement.

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