Honest: I agree with Miracle. The only thing I can add is that you would heal faster/more completely if you didnt have to interact with him as much.
You are delaying the inevitable & I know you know that - what I think you need to ask yourself is how could it get worse by separating? And, I know you are concerned about the finances - but I do not think NPD is going to pull the finances away from his kids. Until you take the next step - u will continue to scramble to manage whatever NPD throws at you(which, btw, he's threatened bringing OW & OC to the house before & it never materialized...).
AND you would be in a better position to keep him in check if you were not legally married, had exclusive occupancy of the house, custody of the kids.
You are putting a bandaid on something that needs surgery....
NOT beating you up - just encouraging (strongly, lol)
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:04 AM, March 11th (Monday)]
When I was last on I thought you were separated. Glad to hear things are working out for you.
Hi Allgood, nice to hear(read?) from you. FWW and I were planning to separate in January after the holidays, then in November she lost her job. I could not afford an appartment for her and the house costs so separation was put off. Since early December, she has changed to meet the needs that were not being met, and to be more of a partner. For the last 3 months the M has been good. At this point I do not see us separating once she is workign again, unless things go back to how they were.
What did your WS ever do to chenge,, beyond stopping the A and being nicer? What has he doen to ensure he will not become involved in another A?
ATS - your wife not working may be part of the improvement. The reduced daily stress. The BPD tendencies get worse over time. But less stress and more self care help. Maybe you both should consider her finding part time work.
I've been doing much better not working for the last few months. I'm sort of fired or maybe really fired anyway... I still don't know. We'll see.
Ok-- I'm getting off track.
I also wanted to say to our newer posters that honest's situation is very different legally and even morally to some extent.
Honest's husband is from a country that allows men to have multiple wives. He lives there the majority of the time and his OW is a legal wife in his country. So, the issues are different and complicated. It can be hard to follow.
There is no excuse for the A.
And I do agree with that. But I do lay blame at my own feet.
Tryn! “I disagree” So, I look at myself.
So I pondered those words reasons and excuses.
Reason (noun): a fact, situation, or intention that explains why something happened, why someone did something, or why something is true. a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.
Excuse (verb): To regard or judge with forgiveness or indulgence; pardon or forgive; to overlook. As in when you are moving through a crowd.. “excuse me please”.
to serve as an apology or justification for; justify.
Excuse (noun): an explanation offered as a reason for being excused; a plea offered in extenuation of a fault or for release from an obligation, promise, etc.
A reason is valid and usually unavoidable. An excuse is a transparent attempt to shift blame away from one's self. An excuse is blame shifting. Please, don’t think as my post as excuses for bad behaviors.
There are always reasons for LTA’s which involves both the BS and WS. A WS will give us excuses to explain the evil they did seeking forgiveness.
Do I fail the LTA board because ‘reasons’ and ‘excuses’ are mixed up?
Excuses allow people to remain in their comfort zone, dodge conflict by avoiding honesty both with others and themselves, dodge accountability, and cast themselves in a better light.
Excuses are inherently negative whereas things happen every day that are positive that have reasons behind them – The reason is a cause or an explanation… and yes sometimes a justification for something happening. Behind every excuse is the real reason. An excuse is a reason that is given to justify an offence or fault but its primary purpose is to lessen responsibility by getting a BS to overlook, excuse, or even forgive off the back of it.
In the beginning of discovering infidelity, The WS will make an excuse, to seek forgiveness. And they want it fast. It is painful and they want to avoid pain. They don’t understand the pain they caused. They want that hole filled, that reason they know that is behind the excuse, they want forgiveness so they can move on in their lives. I am keenly aware the excuse’s primary purpose is to lessen responsibility by getting you to overlook, excuse, or even forgive off the back of it.
There was something in about every BS and we missed it while growing up in life. This is the reason I say stop laying blame at others who you cannot control and focus totally on yourself. The reason, not the excuse.
We must now be a different person and learn from what happened.
I speak a lot of being quality.
It is our choice alone to forgive or not. A WS can ask for forgiveness, but it is not their choice to make. We must now become very wise to our own lives. There are things that WS must do to win us back so we can give trust, feel safe, and prove to us we should make the choice to forgive. Things like…
- show remorse.
- Change who they are.
- others I suppose.
Once they prove this, only then should we begin to forgive because forgiving is a process.
If our spouses do not earn it nor makes no solid attempts to attract us back, then a good quality in us must execute…letting them go.
If we think we want to keep the family, attracting us back takes time. Change takes time. If we allow the WS not to change, they might not change. If we are so hurt, we fail to see change, expect unrealistic change, we don’t allow them to win us back and if WE don’t change, they disqualify themselves or us. During this part of deciding, our own attractiveness should then become to forgiving. And our spouses must have that ability to “take” what we will be giving them during this process. Because forgiving is not so easy. It takes someone far on one side of the bell curve to not let emotions overtake them when those triggers occur.
Once we decide to excuse our spouses.. We must change ourselves.
A quality person understands marriage. A marriage is about two becoming one and totally mutual in every respect. It is a balance. What I am capable of giving can be more than what others give in return. What I need may be more than what others are capable of giving me. What I may be getting was perfectly fine, but what I give others may not. When a marriage is out of balance, it is unhappiness, it is misery.
To achieve a balance is all falls on me. It is personal responsibility.
I protect my boundaries.
- I don’t allow my spouse to behave married but single. I behave married not single
- I don’t allow my spouse to criticize me. I behave by not criticizing.
- I don’t allow my spouse to take from our family more than she contributes. I contribute more than my fair share.
- My W behaves like a woman. I behave like a man.
- My W attracts me. I attract my W.
- I won’t accept anything but 100% intimacy, I give 100% intimacy.
- And the list goes on…
When my M gets out of balance today, I conflict in a way that is protects me. A conflict can end in two ways.. A compromise or an end.
I try to communicate in a way to protects me.
People always cheat for a reason. A WS can give us an excuse, it does not mean we just roll over and forgive right way. If the excuse never has that effort to win us back, it just becomes an attempt by the WS to force the pain go away as quick a possible. If our WS does try very hard to win us back, we should excuse them, if we want the M. If not, we excuse them later while they are not in our world… Peace will come.
So the reason is for my W’s was that she was not happy with me. I was far too critical of her different ways of doing things. I was not romancing her the way a man should be romancing. I was far too needy with my own sexuality. I live a married life single in far too many ways and I allowed my wife to live the same. I failed to approve her, affirm her in such a way her own love bucket was always full. The way I conflicted with her was not a safe way.
She could then take every one of those reasons and made an excuse. My wife never made any excuses. She took full blame after the years of her own evil finally sunk in. We would be divorced right now had she not taken full responsibility for her own actions and used the excuse to force me into forgiving. I don’t blame myself for the man I was back then. That was my identity. It took this for me to open my own eyes. I do lay the blame at my own feet for all the behaviors I did as an unattractive man. It does not excuse my W for her own decisions. She could have made far different choice that would not have hurt me such. I don’t blame myself for the choices my W made.
Does that make sense now?
And it's the double life thing that kills us. I am in total agreement with SMS here -- our WSs did have a "real" relationship. It may not have been as meaningful or as deep as one where you share "real life" -- kids, laundry, and finances, but there was something there, and it was a heck of a lot more fun than the difficult bits of kids, laundry, and finances. I, too, wish I'd had passion, strings-free sex, nights out, etc. But I didn't, because I'm married and I have responsibilities.
It's the double life that kills us, and the lying and betrayal that goes with it. I think there's hardening of the heart that goes along with such a LTA. And with some of us, this has gone past the tipping point -- H&C's wife has hardened herself against him so much that he's not a person to her anymore. The question for the rest of us is whether our WS has gone past that tipping point of selfishness, whether they can be brought back from the brink. My WH has been totally remorseful post-DD (he had a few days of TT & fog, though). But since then, he's been stalwart in saying he'll do anything and isn't leaving no matter how nasty I get.
But I still think there's a lot more work he needs to do to really get to the bottom of how he was able to do this for so long and what habits of mind and heart he has adopted to allow him to do that. And, of course, there's the question of whether I can live with this or not, whether I think there's any relationship worth salvaging. 7 months in, and I still feel nauseous thinking about this.
And I think the other hard part about LTAs is the question of how we could have been so stupid for so long. For me, this was all mixed in with babies and early childhood for my two (including one SN kid), not to mention getting a tenure-track position and WH having two years of unemployment. So -- is it surprising that I missed it, or attributed any changes in behavior to all of the other stuff that was going on? Regardless, I think we all feel duped. And personally I feel like a chump for being stoic and being left -- literally -- holding the baby, while he was off having fun.
Our WSs weren't going for the thrill of the chase. They weren't addicted to sex or novelty. They didn't necessarily require the headiness and seduction of infatuation. (My WH didn't text or talk to his AP outside of their meetings, which were once a month or so.) What they seemed to want was another, secret life. An alternative to US, which is what makes it so hurtful. And they kept choosing it, time and time again.
Bit of a ramble...
[This message edited by Blobette at 4:39 PM, March 11th (Monday)]
It's the double life that kills us, and the lying and betrayal that goes with it. I think there's hardening of the heart that goes along with such a LTA.
What they seemed to want was another, secret life. An alternative to US, which is what makes it so hurtful. And they kept choosing it, time and time again.
Exactly. And "ouch."
BS:45 WH:47 needhelp123
8yr EA&PA w/MCOW emp/frmr emp
19y M * 25y T, 2 teens
DDay 12/31/12*5w TT
Sick tired sad
For the newbies, I am the FWW. I had a 6 year LTA with a MOM whom I had been friends with for 20 years. We dated for about 1 month in the early 90's but I ended it because I didn't feel an attraction. So yes when my M was on a very bad uncommunicative and at times verbally abusive road, I stepped outside of my M to a place where at the time I felt safe. The rest spiraled out of control for the next six years, until DDay in Nov of 2009. My BH and I have been in R since then. I hurt SO much every day for the damage I have done. IC and reading many many books for me to learn the hurt I have caused my BH and to understand the reasons that lay within me and SI (of course) are what are keeping me sane.
I wish I could turn back time. I wish I could undue my fears while in my M and that I would have been a stronger person to end my M because I felt I was fighting for it by myself. I still feel that way today many times, but now it is my BH's hurt and anger that is crippling him, not his distraction with A LOT of work and his obsessive nature of ALWAYS having to “get things done” and never relaxing.
What I think I have learned about myself and so many other stories here on SI is that the WS is SERVERLY lacking self esteem. That basis branches out into seeking validation from others. A SA is a different story, but usually SA's don't have LTAs. The whole sneaking off to eat a cake in the corner comparison is something I personally never felt. Yes at the beginning I felt tremendous guilt, but after a while it all became a sick new normal. It was just "my life". I had my M and I had my A. It was two different lives. The A in the end did not help my self esteem even though while I was "in" it, it felt like it was. I became two different people and I looked for approval from the MOM as I did from my BH. It was easier to get it from my MOM in those brief snippits of our reality, but I was not my true self with him either. I did feel more accepted by him because in our little fantasy world there were no real issues, and when there were, I could easily distract myself from those issues by stepping back into my M'd life. Like a pinball ricashaying between the poles. I lost any reality of my true self for SIX years which means my BH was not experiencing a M with my true self either. Only after my A ended did I find myself. I have also realized that before my A my M had many issues. My BH had a lot of anger issues and we tried to go to a counselor about a year or so BEFORE my A. He didn't want to continue, he ended it after 2 sessions. My other ah ha moment. It never dawned on me that “I”I could benefit from IC at that point. I was so wrapped up in getting my BH some help with his anger and his FOO, I never thought about fixing me. I never realized that my self esteem issues were perpetuating the things I was willing to accept and stuff down with in me. Why didn’t I think about ME going for counseling and making ME a stronger person. It is sad to say now, looking back, that that thought never crossed my mind. I guess that’s just another example of how disconnected I was becoming.
Now, when It comes to Tryin’s posts I have to admit I breathe in EVERY single one of them. Mainly because I wish my BH would just meet me half way. Obviously every M is different and it may not be in the cards for us, but I am still here and hoping. I have to agree with all of you BS’s who don’t feel you should feel ANY blame for your WS’s choice to have an A. It is ALL on us, the WS. I have read a many posts on various forums here on SI where the BS is second guessing the FWS, where the BS is having a gut feeling. Those are NOT the stories I am referring to. I am referring to those of you who honestly feel that your FWS “gets it” or at least is doing everything in their power to continue on their path to “getting it”, and depending on how far you are from D Day, some FWS’s are further along than others. In Tryin’s case his FWW has taken all the steps IN TRYIN’S opinion, to prove herself to him. He feels 100% that she gets it and he also seems to have forgiven his FWW. I also find myself CRAVING to be in his FWW’s shoes. To feel that adoration again from my BH…well the thought of it leaves me speechless and brings me to tears. But myself and Tryin’s FWW and all of your WS’s are 100% at fault and 100% to blame. We are to blame for not getting our butts to counseling when we were feeling low, when our hearts were breaking, when we felt alone in our M’s. I had a weakness, I could not see a light at the end of the tunnel. I know I should have told my BH that I was miserable and felt alone in my M, but I didn’t. I can’t take it back, but that does not mean that I don’t “get it”. My heart aches every single day. I am SO sorry for what I have done. So as a FWS who is trying, I am SO jealous of what Tryin is “trying” to rebuild with his wife, it sounds to me like they will make it, and that is because it was HIS gift to her, and that is also “at his feet”
My boundaries were horrible before my A, but I never realized it then either. Earlier today I had a texting conversation with a photographer that is interested in setting up a possible modeling shoot with me. I met him once at my place of employment and he gave me his card. I have NEVER modeled, but many people have said I should, and now lately I found myself thinking in my OLD AGE…”huh,…what if?” My BH knows about it COMPLETELY and has seen every text we have exchanged. I also made the photographer aware that IF I were interested, my BH would be coming with me. So today he texted again, I still haven’t 100% agreed to it, but he was texting to see if we could agree to a day. So I said it is hard with my work hours and my family. He made a comment and said “I admire you working so hard, I wish my wife would, she hasn’t worked a day since we got married then maybe she would understand the value of a buck”. That right there made me uncomfortable, as trivial as his statement MAY have been. He was talking badly, though very slightly about his wife to a woman he barely knows. Prior to my A, I don’t believe I would have blinked twice at that statement but now I felt that he wasn’t respecting his M or his wife and it made me think not so highly of him. I find myself with quite a few of those moments now throughout my days with various people I meet. I have come quite far from where I was. I am aware of myself and who I am, for myself and my M, and in turn my family…I just hope it is enough.
So I know that there are BSs who do need to think about their behavior, and most of us can be better partners in some way or another, but as you say, each situation is different. And there's a significant contingent who do too much, who need to learn to be more selfish, not less. I think my WS's hardening of the heart has led him to be reflexively selfish, and I need to call him on this. It's exhausting and unpleasant. I would much rather smooth over things and let them go. I hate being vigilant this way. But letting things go isn't healthy for me or our relationship. And fortunately, the vigilance is becoming less and less necessary. So Tryn's advice is the exact opposite of what I need. But that's not to say it's not helpful to other people, as it so clearly is.
[This message edited by Blobette at 6:56 PM, March 11th (Monday)]
Has your WH done "the work"? Do you feel he is owning his wrong choice? The other factors of correcting problems in the M, if you or he feel there are any is secondary to the WS "getting it" first.
I hope I didn't upset you with my post.
It's the double life that kills us, and the lying and betrayal that goes with it. I think there's hardening of the heart that goes along with such a LTA. And with some of us, this has gone past the tipping point
Meanwhile I will continue to move forward and try not to look back when/if the karma bus pays a visit.
On another note hopefully 3rd times the charm with this lawyer visit tomorrow. No last minute court dates for the L, no freak blizzards in the weather so hopefully we can actually get this process started now.
the part about the hardening of the heart towards the BS is so true. They have lied for so long that for some, my STBXWW included, they don't know how to come back even after the A stops. We are demonized for so long to justify the A in their minds that they have no idea how to find their way back. It's like they remember how it used to be pre-A but everything has changed when they try to check back in and they have no idea how to reintegrate into the family now. In my case I was minimized to the point of being a provider.
And yes, my W wants to minimize me to a provider. I am so much more than that and maybe, just maybe she will be able to see that and work her way back into the M.
NPD has told me and my IC that he could never be faithful to anyone and one woman is never enough for him. He told me that there was something wrong with him in that respect. But he will never ever try to correct that.
The most damaging thing is that sometimes the BS starts to believe the demonization and blameshifting that the WS hands out which further deteriorates the self esteem of the BS.
RSEB: Thank you for all your insights. They are very helpful.
You are putting a bandaid on something that needs surgery...
OMG Allgood! You are sooo correct. But, I feel in my case it's like I have a secondary infection that needs to be dealt with first before the surgery or I won't survive the surgery.
M3: I question the morals of OW since she was sneaking around with WH and hiding the relationship from her family until she found out she was pregnant. They had "married" in secret, not even a "legal" marriage. In that culture, it is a BIG taboo to be doing that. NPD seems to have no morals or any empathy. He fakes the empathy.
I hope things are going better for you, M3. Give us an update on Baby Paddy and your new bundle of joy!
My BH and I had a pretty good night last night, the weekend was good as well. I don't mean that to say he was okay, but we had quite a few "connecting" moments, especially last night after dinner. We talked for a bit and then he went outside to play basketball with the kids. We turned in early to finish watching the end of a movie in bed. I had my head on his chest, laying together as we always do, he kissed my head and smelled my hair a few times (that is his thing, he likes to smell my hair ) . At one point in the movie the character was yelling at the woman referring to her drug past and said "WHEN YOU SUCKED DI#K FOR MONEY". Well that just hit me hard and triggered me because it reminded me of things my BH has said when he is yelling at me about my LTA. So I started crying, we didn't talk, he held me and told me it is okay and that "I got you". So we watched the rest of the movie. I was upset for a minute or two more but moved past it. Then we made love, had a great night. Now this morning when he left for work, he kissed me good bye (he always does with a "bye babe") but he didn't say "I love you". Now mind you since my A he tries to not say it even though I have told him that upsets me, but he still holds it in because BEFORE my A we said it EVERY night at the end of EVERY phone call and EVERY time he said goodbye to me in the morning.
So here I sit, upset again feeling pathetic and hurt. Am I acting crazy? Because it feels like he does this on purpose to show me that he won't give me what I need. Now after typing this all out I feel like I am being selfish but I need to hear the answers from all of you wise folks. Thanks for listening.
The woman on TV was trying to convince and teach other woman to be men. There are great woman in history that have been leaders. I can admire those women greatly. But in nature, human history, the male is the dominant. Men and woman think WAY different. The lady on TV explained that men think vertical like ladders. Men take the step up, and now we must achieve the next step. Woman think and behave more horizontally. They think and behave more about “feelings.” She nailed it as I have been learning. Men want to just task things and fix them. Woman think more with feelings.
Every man has this feelings, desire, role, etc.. He must make money, support his family, be the leader in this way. If your man is making less, not working, not leading the family, I can assure you, he has a huge problem. Much like what your H fell into. A man needs to lead.
Did his A start while he was not working? When a man is not working, he must lead something. Perhaps your situation was the perfect storm and not having much to do with you at all. Since you were working, you now became the leader. He now has this hole to fill. An affair is about affirmation in ways you had no clue how to fill. And, at the same time.. it is not your responsibility to even find your man a job. Despite us not really knowing the pressure we place on others, if you time in and time out had discussions that..”You need to find a job” that then placed a whole bunch of pressure on him. Words mean things and what we say how we say them do have an effect others.
Your man may have something very attractive about him. He knows how to approve and how to approve a woman. A woman growing up with a father not approving will ADORE a man like this. Your needs and love bucket might have been full.
So, a man is placed in a situation were he has some flirting, you have a woman who is in great need of approval, OW will also find this man that attractive. She will “agree” to give him her sex. And you must know, sex is the ultimate approval to any man. He now fills that role he is back to being a leader. We once had a discussion here about when these opportunities occur, a person knowing they won’t get caught will have a very hard time NOT eating the apple. Sex in most men is that important.
Once a man crosses that line into an A and does not get exposed, it gets very easy to continue. It’s like a drug or addiction. He doesn’t want to be this man, but the high feels so good. You H’s A must have been about sex. Men have this need to have sex with other woman. Sex is about your man’s inability to control his needs.
And LTA are always about opportunity. Our lives are have the time, the openness, LTA’s always seem to have a greater opportunity to be secret. His time available while YOU worked. It can be mis-matched times.. like my traveling, working in different cities, our not enforcing boundaries and us allowing our spouses to live a married singles life visiting bars at night, or more….
If you can identify why he had the opportunity, then you can protect yourself in the future. We don’t let them cross that boundary.
“honey, you can visit a bar after work all you want. But I don’t like it and I am not going to be with a man who is married but lives his life like a single. You make the choice to get a new hobby.”
When they meet only once a month, it is SUPER difficult to detect. Did you have any gut feelings? I strongly believe a woman has some very powerful sense about her. She can smell another woman coming after her man a mile away. My OM’s W told me she suspected my W in an A with her H going back to the beginning. He also had a history of affairs. IMO, had the OM’s W been stronger, followed better boundaries herself, her gut feelings, she would have found out far sooner and if she had the courage to tell me, the head of the snake would have been cut off far sooner. And me? I sensed my love bucket being emptied. What was it about me that transferred my intimacy toward the kids, my career?
Feeling tricked… I know that feeling well. We are supposed to trust. All you did was do what you were suppose to do by all that the “I do” means. But the odds were far not in my favor to believe so much. 1 of 3? I have been tricked twice in my life. Once by my W, the other in business. Both very painful consequences. Just because we do protect ourselves to the best of our abilities with boundaries, due diligence, people are not always loving or loyal. This is a given in life for us all. This means we all will face this 100% in our lives. We will face it at some point in life. This was your time. I always say focus on you. You must get better at protecting yourself. This might be stronger enforcing of boundaries. It might be better or different due diligence.
I once trusted a man and I knew he had once had not been honest to others. Why did I do this? You speak of being tougher. Tougher in this case would be, GET collateral or NO DEAL. These are things we must discover about US.
I was naive in my M. Those famous words “I do” meant something that powerful in my mind. Why did I allow my W to go to a Pacer game with her boss? It was inappropriate! Period. Why did I allow her to develop such a close relationship? Some people are being taught that it is OK for someone they have a relationship to have best friends of the opposite sex. Let me tell you, you have that value, you will be betrayed. If you approve of that, your spouse will believe it is ok to have another friend. Need I say more about what that will likely lead too?
No, it wasn’t the secret life they wanted.. it was a hole that was missing. The holes are feelings. They were searching to fill those holes. It is the reason.
Do you do things or not do things for or to your FWS in a way to "hurt" them, to continue to "make" them realize what they have done to you and your M?
Not intentionally , and not since I accepted her A and decided I was open to R.
and said "WHEN YOU SUCKED DI#K FOR MONEY". Well that just hit me hard and triggered me because it reminded me of things my BH has said when he is yelling at me about my LTA.
I said a similar thing more than once to FWW during the first year after dday, but not since I got to acceptance.
1: So I started crying...
2: he held me and told me it is okay...
3: and that "I got you"....
So we watched the rest of the movie. I was upset for a minute or two more but moved past it.
4: Then we made love...
5: had a great night...
6: when he left for work, he kissed me good bye...
but he didn't say "I love you".
So we watched the rest of the movie. I was upset for a minute or two more but moved past it.
4: Then we made love...
5: had a great night...
6: when he left for work, he kissed me good bye...
but he didn't say "I love you".
I count 6 positives, and then he said bye baby rather than I love you. You would like him to say it, you understand why he does not.
My advice? Accentuate the positives here. It took me three+ years to begin to feel comfortable saying I love you to FWW. Little things end up having big meanings sometimes after an A.